I Was Limiting God

[Guest end3]

I would like to put this out there, because it is relevant to me, and could possibly mean something to someone else. I am positive many will not see this in the same light as did I. Please, I know this already and would appreciate little abuse. Thanks.

 

I have always been taught as a Christian that when we give our lives to Christ, how ever you wish to do that, belief, baptism, sprinkling, whatever.... that we essentially "die to self", which I interpret as saying goodbye to my worldly, natural soul, and letting God's Spirit replace mine to be made like Him, glory to glory so to speak...end of story....entailing: good works, hold on to your faith, go to church, move up the political church ladder, and on and on, die, go to Heaven.

 

What was never taught to me was after being baptized by John, in his position of salvation, and having the same relationship we enjoy, that then He gave this too away on the cross.

 

So now I am thinking that separation from God is something that Jesus did.

 

And here is the key in my mind, (small though it may be), is that I limited God to a place taught by my religion, that says, if I separate myself from Him, that that is it.....death, hell, blah, blah... I never gave God the capability of being God, and in that, having the ability to move, or do, in a way other than what I had limited him to via tradition, doctrine, etc.

 

Point being, after separation, God reached in and brought Jesus to Himself.

[Neon Genesis]

Is there some point to this thread?

[hereticzero]

That is the argument of no understanding. You willfully limit your intellect by depending on fantasy to carry you trough the day. Jesus is a fairy tale that depends on the fairy tale of the talking snake being true. Since I've never seen a talking snake or the proof god gives a crap about any of us, I can't believe the belief in god or Jesus is necessary for any kind of salvation. Man did not fall from grace and man is not cursed by god. Man is born and man dies, that is the way of the universe before Adam and after.

[The-Captain]

Okay suspension of disbelief for a second here.

 

Im not sure Jesus was an example of how salvation works. Its generally seen as a cosmic balancing act, him being all blameless getting flagellated and poked for our sin of being born. He was always in touch with the father right? Are you saying dying "in sin", as it were, isn't a ticket to hell?

 

Gah! None of this makes sense!

 

Sounds like mental gymnastics....

 

I'm sure you knew someone would say that, thought l'd get it out of the way.

[Brother Jeff]

There is no god. The sooner you realize that fact, the better off you will be. And then you can stop worrying about religious bullshit...

[Ouroboros]

I have always been taught as a Christian that when we give our lives to Christ, how ever you wish to do that, belief, baptism, sprinkling, whatever.... that we essentially "die to self", which I interpret as saying goodbye to my worldly, natural soul, and letting God's Spirit replace mine to be made like Him, glory to glory so to speak...end of story....entailing: good works, hold on to your faith, go to church, move up the political church ladder, and on and on, die, go to Heaven.

To "die from oneself and be restored to a new being" is an older belief than Christianity. My understanding we even had it in my country (Sweden), in the asatrue (Asatro) before the Christians came. I can't remember the name of the procedure (it's somewhere, back in my head on a dusty shelf), but it was basically a thing they did to heal people, or get them in order with the gods again, by dragging the "possessed" (sick) person through a hole in an old oak. The oak had magical powers and was connected to the gods, a form of nexus, and the symbolical procedure was that a person died and was restored to a new and hopefully healthy person. Other religions have other traditions and ideas of the re-birth idea. I just wanted to let you know that Christianity doesn't have the patent on these things.

[Astreja]

Fascinating point about other religions and "rebirthing", Han.

 

At the risk of seeing this thread dragged into the Colosseum (or, Loki forfend, the Arena), I thought it might be interesting to look at the underlying concept of new-selves-for-old.

 

In other words... Why is it that so many cultures feel that the old persona has to be formally snuffed? Why not keep it intact and expand upon it instead?

[R. S. Martin]

Pretty hard limiting someone who doesn't exist. I really should start limiting the pink elephant crashing around my apartment but I can't bring myself to doing it.

[Brother Jeff]

Pretty hard limiting someone who doesn't exist. I really should start limiting the pink elephant crashing around my apartment but I can't bring myself to doing it.

I've got the same problem with my purple dragon, but he's just so adorable! Glory!

[Ouroboros]

Fascinating point about other religions and "rebirthing", Han.

 

At the risk of seeing this thread dragged into the Colosseum (or, Loki forfend, the Arena), I thought it might be interesting to look at the underlying concept of new-selves-for-old.

 

In other words... Why is it that so many cultures feel that the old persona has to be formally snuffed? Why not keep it intact and expand upon it instead?

Oh, that's simple. The cycle of nature.

 

Sunset, night, sunrise, day... a cycle of life and death, re-birth

 

Progression of the moon cycle, new moon, all the way to full moon, and then dies again.

 

The seasons. Plants die, winter, plants come to life again, now we can eat fresh fruit in the warmth of the new life, "Spring to life".

 

Planting a seed, buried as if dead, comes to new life, and give birth to new seeds

 

Woman bleed during delivering baby. Blood, life is spilled, to give new life.

 

And much more...

 

Many old stories portray this idea. To die, is to get the chance to be reborn to something new. In the Bible, Isak being sacrificed (almost), Moses pulled out of the water, and other stories.

 

There's another story about the food for the Asa gods. They slaughtered the pig, but they were not allowed to eat the bones. They threw the bones into a bag, and put the bag outside overnight. The next morning the pig had come back to life. (Also old Swedish Asatro story).

[Tabula Rasa]

End, you've limited God allright.

 

See the problem I had with christianity before I deconverted was not so much lack of evidence,(That came later.) but philosophical reasons.

If God is omnipotent, why didn't he make it where it was impossible to sin? An omnipotent being can do whatever it wants, make reality anything it wants. So then, why would an omnipotent god set up it's own creations knowing they'd fall. The whole idea is obscene, the creator of the universe, of all there is, was, and will be being so cheap and petty that it'd get bent out of shape because to tiny creatures it created didn't act like he wanted them too. That the same being would make it's own creations suffer forever in a fiery pit. Um sorry, that does not compute.

 

An omnipotent transcendent being needs neither praise nor worship.

 

See End, I'm a deist, I think there is some sort of god, but it certainly isn't the constantly pissed off god of the bible who condoned rape, murder, and genocide.

 

The problem I have with Yahweh is he's way too small and petty. There's no way such a immature childish being could have created the great vault of heaven and all the worlds it contains. And yet the argument will come up that since Adam and Eve sinned, we all fall short of the glory of god etc etc. What kind of god sets up it's own creations by making them curious by nature and then putting a tree full of tasty forbidden fruit right in front of them? As Sam Kinison, said, "You may as well have put a neon sign on it saying DON'T EAT ME DON'T EAT ME!.

 

Right now, I'm just thinking God or whatever it is, set in motion the forces of evolution whatever and let us humans that evolved figure things out for ourselves giving us our freedom to choose.

 

Think about it end, do you really think the creator of the universe is a cosmic grouchy old man who likes to mess with it's creations mind's and demands worship me or burn?

Sorry man, a being like that would be so insane it couldn't keep two protons together much less create and maintain the cosmic engine.

 

Just think about it.....

[Mike D]

I've never seen a talking snake

But i've seen a talking horse!

 

"A horse is a horse, of course, of course,

And no one can talk to a horse of course

That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed.

 

Go right to the source and ask the horse

He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.

He's always on a steady course.

Talk to Mr. Ed.

 

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day

But Mister Ed will never speak unless he has something to say.

 

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,

And this one'll talk 'til his voice is hoarse.

You never heard of a talking horse?

 

Well listen to this. I am Mister Ed."

[Michael]

(1.) I have always been taught as a Christian that when we give our lives to Christ, how ever you wish to do that, belief, baptism, sprinkling, whatever.... that we essentially "die to self", which I interpret as saying goodbye to my worldly, natural soul, and letting God's Spirit replace mine to be made like Him, glory to glory so to speak...end of story....entailing: good works, hold on to your faith, go to church, move up the political church ladder, and on and on, die, go to Heaven.

 

(2.) What was never taught to me was after being baptized by John, in his position of salvation, and having the same relationship we enjoy, that then He gave this too away on the cross.

 

So now I am thinking that separation from God is something that Jesus did.

 

(3.) And here is the key in my mind, (small though it may be), is that I limited God to a place taught by my religion, that says, if I separate myself from Him, that that is it.....death, hell, blah, blah... I never gave God the capability of being God, and in that, having the ability to move, or do, in a way other than what I had limited him to via tradition, doctrine, etc.

 

Hi end3,

 

(1.) I have been taught the same, but I actually never met one xian without a "sinful nature". This "sinful nature" never died, so I see no practical helpful sense in this baptism. And have you got the impression, that the xians are reigned by the spirit of god instead of their own spitit? It is a veeeeery weak symbol and I can not understand the fuss about it.

 

(2.) Did jesus gave it away or did he just had to accept the fact that his father dissapeared from the picture?

 

(3.) I have no clue what you are trying to say with this part. Every xian will let you know that seperation from god is the worst case. If you believe something else, than this is not very popular in church. Btw. the feeling, that god is not talking to us and that he seems to give a shit about us is correct. It is not because you are a very evil person, it is just the fact, that there is no god. Ask other xians how they know that god is talking to them. Most of them will talk about their emotions, their interpretation of bible verses and so on. There is NOTHING you can really put your hands on. It is all their interpretation of the life around. We had two groups in our church. One was convinced that the pastor was a blessing from god, the other group was totally convinced, that the pastor was send by the devil to destroy the church. One group got prophecies that the pastor should leave, the other group got prophecies, that he should stay. WTF!!

[Grandpa Harley]

I have always been taught as a Christian that when we give our lives to Christ, how ever you wish to do that, belief, baptism, sprinkling, whatever.... that we essentially "die to self", which I interpret as saying goodbye to my worldly, natural soul, and letting God's Spirit replace mine to be made like Him, glory to glory so to speak...end of story....entailing: good works, hold on to your faith, go to church, move up the political church ladder, and on and on, die, go to Heaven.

To "die from oneself and be restored to a new being" is an older belief than Christianity. My understanding we even had it in my country (Sweden), in the asatrue (Asatro) before the Christians came. I can't remember the name of the procedure (it's somewhere, back in my head on a dusty shelf), but it was basically a thing they did to heal people, or get them in order with the gods again, by dragging the "possessed" (sick) person through a hole in an old oak. The oak had magical powers and was connected to the gods, a form of nexus, and the symbolical procedure was that a person died and was restored to a new and hopefully healthy person. Other religions have other traditions and ideas of the re-birth idea. I just wanted to let you know that Christianity doesn't have the patent on these things.

 

I know it's a different pantheon, but it's all but a re-enactment of the passion of Wotan....

[bush country]

<snip>

 

And here is the key in my mind, (small though it may be), is that I limited God to a place taught by my religion, that says, if I separate myself from Him, that that is it.....death, hell, blah, blah... I never gave God the capability of being God, and in that, having the ability to move, or do, in a way other than what I had limited him to via tradition, doctrine, etc.

 

Point being, after separation, God reached in and brought Jesus to Himself.

 

End, I am not sure if I am addressing your question. This is what I understand it to be: Let god work in your life, without limits.

 

I was at that point for about three years before I deconverted. I had sensed a call to ministry and was awaiting further instructions. I was at the point of "god, I will do anything you want me to do, anytime, any place". Sell the house and go to seminary? Sure. Even applied and was accepted. Go to Uganda as a missionary? You bet. Give up all my worldly possessions to accomplish "god's plan"? I was all over that. Yet, none of those things was my calling. So I spent, or rather wasted, three years waiting on god to move, with no conditions as to how, in my life. This after forty years as a christian. I got....silence. I prayed....it was just talking to my pillow or the ceiling, depending on which way I was facing. I read the bible....same old same old. I listened to the preacher....nothing new there.

 

If you are at this point, you can wait all you want but nothing is going to happen. Unless you make up an answer yourself. I just could not do that. For me to serve him god had to be tangibly real. It didn't happen. It ain't ever gonna happen because there is no god there in the first place.

 

IMO, the reason xians spend so much time praying, singing songs, listening to preachers, reading books (but not the bible), and having bible studies is, if they ever stopped and listened for god, they would be met with such a profound silence they would finally have to admit that he doesn't exist.

[Grandpa Harley]

I always thought they were scared that, if they let god get a word in edgeways, he'd tell em to lighten up, chill out, have a malty drink and go fishin' in stead of obsessing about teh gays and shit...

[hereticzero]

I've never seen a talking snake

But i've seen a talking horse!

 

"A horse is a horse, of course, of course,

And no one can talk to a horse of course

That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed.

 

Go right to the source and ask the horse

He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.

He's always on a steady course.

Talk to Mr. Ed.

 

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day

But Mister Ed will never speak unless he has something to say.

 

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,

And this one'll talk 'til his voice is hoarse.

You never heard of a talking horse?

 

Well listen to this. I am Mister Ed."

 

Good one!

[hereticzero]

I would like to put this out there, because it is relevant to me, and could possibly mean something to someone else. I am positive many will not see this in the same light as did I. Please, I know this already and would appreciate little abuse. Thanks.

 

I have always been taught as a Christian that when we give our lives to Christ, how ever you wish to do that, belief, baptism, sprinkling, whatever.... that we essentially "die to self", which I interpret as saying goodbye to my worldly, natural soul, and letting God's Spirit replace mine to be made like Him, glory to glory so to speak...end of story....entailing: good works, hold on to your faith, go to church, move up the political church ladder, and on and on, die, go to Heaven.

 

What was never taught to me was after being baptized by John, in his position of salvation, and having the same relationship we enjoy, that then He gave this too away on the cross.

 

So now I am thinking that separation from God is something that Jesus did.

 

And here is the key in my mind, (small though it may be), is that I limited God to a place taught by my religion, that says, if I separate myself from Him, that that is it.....death, hell, blah, blah... I never gave God the capability of being God, and in that, having the ability to move, or do, in a way other than what I had limited him to via tradition, doctrine, etc.

 

Point being, after separation, God reached in and brought Jesus to Himself.

Use the force, Padiwan. Midi-chlorians are your friends.

[florduh]

Well, end3, you finally posted it! It took guts, I know, and I hope you can weather the fallout.

 

Are you drawing a parallel between Jesus and ex-Christians? Both separated from God, and since one was drawn back by the Father it follows that He shall do the same for the other. Is that right?

 

You feel you have been limiting God, or put another way, Christianity wasn't working for you. You still seem to think there must be a god, and he must be the one in the Bible, so you alter what the book says to make it fit your feelings or experiences. You just have a need to make it all work somehow.

 

Is that a fair assessment of your situation?

 

- Chris

[mwc]

Pretty hard limiting someone who doesn't exist. I really should start limiting the pink elephant crashing around my apartment but I can't bring myself to doing it.

Well, this explains why my house is such a mess because I can't accept that I am the one messing it up. Damn pink elephants.

 

mwc

[Guest end3]

Hey Chris,

 

Yes, I am drawing that parallel. I will admit my faith was, sometimes is, having problems as I catch myself in a mocking mode ocassionally. Here is the point. When I was at a point of considering my faith failing, (the thread about my dad), that is when all of ya'll stepped in and said, "We have been there". I equate that support as God. So how could God be here? Because I limited Him to there. And if I limited Him in understanding His choices/decisions, then how shallow is this....I should go back and sit as if I knew it all, perhaps on the front row.

 

I felt He left me alone for about one day before He made Himself known to me through ya'll.

 

I am thinking I am not altering the book, as I feel Jesus was in the same "status" that a saved Christian is in when He gave up his relationship. I feel Phillipians 3:8-12, Jesus lament in the garden, and Paul stating he would trade all so his brothers could benefit are evidence of this concept.

 

So again, if God is the judge, and not our understanding alone, why could He not bring any of us to Himself at His will?

 

Again, I know some are adamant about disbelief, I accept that. Please disregard the thread if necessary.

[florduh]

I feel Jesus was in the same "status" that a saved Christian is in when He gave up his relationship. I feel Phillipians 3:8-12, Jesus lament in the garden, and Paul stating he would trade all so his brothers could benefit are evidence of this concept.

 

I'm not convinced it's reasonable to compare Jesus with mortal man. When I was a Christian, I would have considered that statement blasphemous. As an ex-Christian, it just sounds like more "but I know what God REALLY meant." You must find the Bible as bad at giving clear answers as I found it to be!

 

- Chris

[Taphophilia]

End,

 

You are really struggling with your faith Most of us have been there. Trying to come up with different ways of thinking that makes sense to us.

 

Christianity sets us up for failure to begin with "Dying in Christ" means to reject that which makes us human and to reject the humanity in others. Human needs and desires equals sin and therefore separation from god. Christianity condemns that which makes us human rather than let us embrace and celebrate our humanity. It is considered evil and must be purged or we have failed.

 

Anorexics and Bulimics primarily focus on food, which isn't realistic or healthy, much in the same way that Christians focus on human needs and desires. Food isn't the problem and neither is human needs or desires. That which you deny yourself is always going to be the primary focus. Either you starve yourself or you binge and purge and you don't make healthy choices for you life.

 

Taph

[Neon Genesis]

Are you drawing a parallel between Jesus and ex-Christians? Both separated from God, and since one was drawn back by the Father it follows that He shall do the same for the other. Is that right?

If that's what End's thread is about, I think there is one major difference between ex-Christians and Jesus. That's that God set everything up for humans to fail, but God set everything up for Jesus to win. So even if Jesus was separated from God on the cross, that doesn't matter because dear old daddy set everything up to make sure Jesus was victorious, so there was never any real challenge, but does he do the same thing for us? Hell no (not to mention that Jesus was also supposedly God in the flesh, so saying Jesus was separated from God yet was also somehow magically God at the same time makes no logical sense whatsoever). I think a more accurate analogy between Jesus and ex-Christians is that it's more like a rich spoiled brat telling a middle class average Joe, "See, I'm just like you! I face challenges everyday! Like right now I'm trying to decide between wasting my money on buying a new Mercedes or a new limo even though I already have a dozen expensive cars. See, it's just like how you face that challenge everyday between saving money up for that dream house you want or spending it on your family! See, we're not so different, after all!" And in all honesty, is End saying anything different from other xtians? Isn't what End saying basically the same "human beings are worthless pieces of shit without God, so turn your soul and not to mention your brain, over to him" mantra, only with slightly prettier packing?

[SWIM]

End, I have seen you grappling with your faith for a while now, changing points of view etc etc.

 

A serious question;

 

Have you ever read through www.godisimaginary.com ?

 

Seriously, its NOT blasphemous and likely won't offend you. You really should read through it.

 

That site has helped lots of people struggling with religion put it into proper perspective, and I endorse it whenver I can. The NAME of the site does sound "rough" to an xtian, but it is tame and respectful.

 

Try it.