What's The Deal With Satanism?

[Vomit Comet]

Before I was a Christian, I was all big into grind/thrash/death metal like Cannibal Corpse and Slayer. (That was a little before the Norweigan black metal church burner guys were known in the USA.) In fact, at the age of 14 and 15 or so, that's all I would ever listen to. I literally used Iron Maiden as lullabies to help me fall asleep. Anyways, stupid teenager that I was, I thought that satan was cool. I also thought the grim reaper was really cool.

 

Me and my best friend at the time (also into the same kind of music; in fact, he introduced me to it) would go on and on about starting a religion devoted to the grim reaper because we figured death was the most powerful thing of all: even god and satan were gonna die, we figured. So we wanted to start the death religion and be the twin popes and get endless pussy from our harem of hot goth chick cultist groupies while becoming so huge and powerful that the government would be unable to stop our wanton killing sprees. Of course we were just talking shit, for shits and giggles.

 

Of course, we thought satan was cool. We thought that there was half a chance that he would win the war against god, and that would be a good thing because then hell would take over the world and all the evil people (like us) would get to party non-stop and do endless lines of coke like the alien dudes in the movie 'Heavy Metal' while engaging in wild orgies before and after the nightly 5-band death metal extravaganzas.

 

I remember being obsessed with blood and gore and mayhem. I was always drawing pictures of massacres and cannibalistic orgies and people being tortured and murdered and so on. I also wrote many short stories about that, though with heaping helpings of shit, piss, and vomit thrown in. I guess nowadays school kids get in deep shit for doing stuff like that. Back then they would just get annoyed at you.

 

Keep in mind I was also deeply mentally ill at the time, and was within inches of being institutionalized.

 

Needless to say, I had a lot of repenting to do when I got saved at the age of 15.

 

Well, before long, I found that there were metalheads in the church, and I got turned on to everything from Tourniquet (one of the greatest fucking speed metal bands ever, btw!) to Living Sacrifice (back when they were still a death metal band; they were incredibly fucking good at it, too). I was so happy to see that I could get my musical rocks off and not have to subject myself to Deicide or Venom any more. Well, needless to say, I started to hear a lot of talk about satanism. A lot of wild rumors. We even had an ex-satanist speak in front of our youth group once.

 

While I was still a Christian, I came to the following understanding:

 

1. The vast majority of "satanists" are just stupid kids like I was, trying to freak their parents and their peers out. Basically a big fucking joke, adolescent lameness that they'll mature out of eventually.

 

2. The majority of the ones that are actually organized into anything were jokesters that didn't really believe in anything, like Anton LaVey's Church of Satan. They weren't to be taken seriously. They were just fucking around. In fact, they probably only existed to make money off of evil trinkets and fake spellbooks sold in 'Metal Mayhem' magazine or something.

 

3. There was a sizeable minority who somehow syncretized the character of Satan with pre-Christian stuff, like weird esoteric Egyptian and Roman shit. For instance, some of them said that satan was a stand-in for the Egyptian god Set or something like that. Whatever the fuck... it all sounds pretty made-up to me, then as well as now. Postmodern religious pastiche, in other words. I guess that's how these guys escaped the tag of being merely derivative of Christianity.

 

Anyways, these guys would fancy themselves as "black magicians" or something and saw themselves as kind of tapping into the dark side of "the Force" or something like that. They were kinda sorta evil but not really in that they eschewed the good/evil binarism. And all kinds of other convoluted stuff.

 

I used to know some people like that. Two brothers, in fact, whose mom was from Zimbabwe and was into all kinds of voodoo type shit. One of them claimed to be a necromancer. They said that they had all kinds of powers and control over spirits and all this other stuff. (I just kind of humored them.) Well, last I heard, the older of the two went bat-shit crazy and tried to kill his own dad, because he thought that his dad was a witchhunter that was trying to kill him first. They put him in the nut-house and I wouldn't be surprised if he was still there.

 

4. A very very small, but very very elite minority were "mad satanists" who also believed in YHWH and in Jesus, but who honestly believed that Satan had a pretty good shot at winning. (There was a Chick tract that explained it all.) I was told that a lot of the high school kids that went "missing" had actually been abducted by these guys for human sacrifices or for torture. These guys tended to be wealthy elites with deep ties to governments and major corporations, and they were very respectable and inconspicuous on the surface. Some kind of NWO type of shit or something.

 

.....

 

Also, I remember always hearing rumors that there was a satanic compound in the Grapevine area (the stretch of I-5 that connects the Los Angeles area to the San Joaquin Valley) way the hell up in the mountains, several miles from the paved road. Lake Hughes area, if I'm not mistaken. Allegedly there was a big string of murders and missing persons cases connected to the place. The way the place was described to me, it was like a bunch of primitive troll motherfuckers living in mud huts and eating lizards and jack rabbits.

 

Also, everyone told me that every morning after Halloween there was this one area just outside of town where chopped up dead black cats, by the dozens if not hundreds, were always found. There were certainly a lot of occultists crawling all over the hills around Los Angeles during Halloween, I can guarantee you that much, but as to what their bent was, I don't really know. A friend of mine used to run some kind of druid grove, and that's where they'd do their thing.

 

.......

 

So anyways, what the fuck?

 

One time I looked up Satanism on Wikipedia but it was all pretty fragmented and convoluted. I was wondering if anyone here could give me any insight.

 

Also, there's this guy I work with who I suspect is a satanist. And for some reason, he seems to suspect I'm a satanist as well, or that I know a lot about it. (We both like extreme metal, and I used to have long hair, so that might be what made him suspect such.) He was always dropping hints and little "inside words" to see if I'd catch on. One time he mentioned off hand that "real satanists blend in" with an evil grin and a wink.

 

Well, his fiance is a Hindu so his worldview, whatever it is, can't be all that exclusive. Unless she worships the evil death goddess or something.

 

Anyways, I'm certainly not interested in getting into the occult, let alone satanism. It's always confused the hell out of me, though, so I'm trying to put two and two together. Enlighten me, please.

[Thurisaz]

I'll admit I'm not a specialist on (whatever) satanism, but as I see it...

 

...many people use saaataaan as The Symbol of rebellion against the jebus (and is-lame, I guess) cult. Never mind that by choosing him as their idol they stay in the cult, just hop over to The Other Side

 

Let's face it, in a society thoroughly tainted by morontheism, claim saaataaan as your Lord™ and everyone knows that you're violently opposed to jehoover. Methinks most "satanists" don't care a flying fuck about their idol other then using it to get the message across.

 

I'd like to repeat, that's just my own opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Casey]

As I see it, if you are a true Satanist, you believe that he is the Lord of the Universe and will reward his followers in the afterlife, just as the Jebus freaks believe of their own master. There is a verse from Matthew's gospel that states:

 

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

 

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

(KJV)

 

In other words, all these things were in His Infernal Majesty's gift, and Jebus was a fool to refuse. Thus Satanists decided they would take up the offer instead. That's why it always amuses me when christians accuse Atheists of being Satanists. How could one believe in Satan if one didn't believe in God?

 

As for your rock and pop stars, along with Heavy Metal musicians, I'd say they just want to shock people, as you've said. However because of the above legend as recited in the quoted verses, christian preachers fulminate against them for their lifestyles and the huge amounts of money some of them make. As for me, I'd have thought that if you were a talented person in a popular field of music and a hard worker in that field, you'd end up making money; it has nothing to do with signing any sort of pact with the Evil One.

 

However, there is no law against believing in your own image, is there? Given the lifestyles such musicians lead, drug use and what christians would call Satanic worship are commonplace things, are they not? Everyone else in your game is doing the same things, so you do them as well, and, as I said, some of 'em end up believing their own bullshit. End of story.

Casey

[AKR]

I've never met a satanist that actually believes in god and satan as anything more than symbols. I think that covers the majority, and their morals tend to be in line with mine (think for yourself; don't f*ck with people unless they f*ck with you or others, and so on). I think the few animal sacrifices that get made are by moronic teenagers just looking to fit in to something rebellious, and most human sacrifices are just rumors or are done by a small number of satanists with different views. I remember doing some research a while back and finding some studies on satanism, and most or all of the claims were just fabricated by fear mongering douche bags. Ask someone to prove that any satanists actually performs human sacrifices, and they'll probably shut up.

[Kei]

i've only read a tiny bit on satanism, but from what i've read most of them don't believe in satan, but more in questioning authority.

 

then there are the real devil worshippers who do the scary sacrifices and whatnot, but they're rare, from what i understand.

 

i'd like to know more about this subject as well.

[Vomit Comet]

Now, would any of you say that there's kind of a "dark side" strain of paganism or witchcraft apart from quote-unquote "satanism"?

 

I seem to remember encountering people who seemed to be of that bent (claiming to be "black magicians" or something), although I don't know that they were into satan, and I don't know that they saw themselves on the "evil" side of the typical good/evil dichotomy. They said they were into "forbidden arts" like necromancy and other stuff involving dead people and other creepy things. Is there anything to it? Or were they just kids who took some aspect of Dungeons & Dragons too seriously?

[Thurisaz]

Now, would any of you say that there's kind of a "dark side" strain of paganism or witchcraft apart from quote-unquote "satanism"?

 

Depends on what's "dark" for you.

 

I've met at least one fellow Asatruar who considers Loki to be his role model...

 

...but then, he also defines Loki as (quoting from memory) "he who holds the mirror up to our faces and makes us see what we like to ignore within ourselves". More of a balance thing than a "dark/evil" thing, in other words.

[white_raven23]

The last time I heard the word "satanist" applied to someone, it was from my ignorant cousins describing people they did not understand. They were talking about folks who hang out in a forest at night.

 

I asked for clarification....their "satanists" liked to go into the woods and light candles, sit around...and smoke pot.

 

They were pretty much describing hippies or new agers or pagans...but not knowing the distinctions (and really not giving enough of a damn to find out), they just broadbrushed them "satanist".

 

I've heard the media pull that shit too. Describing a "ritual" where people are found naked singing chanting around campfires..."satanists".

 

And they do it to real crimes too....describing a homicidal maniac who kills kids as "satanist", despite the absence of any ritual activity these media midgets are capable of comprehending (there is a "ritual" but it has to do with committing the act itself, and has nothing to do with any deity worship beyond the killer him/herself).

 

It's the modern slur label. An age ago, "witch" was sufficient to get people's dander whipped up into a hostile lynching frenzy.The "witch" label was overused and abused...and folks were getting wiser.

[Casey]

Now, would any of you say that there's kind of a "dark side" strain of paganism or witchcraft apart from quote-unquote "satanism"?

 

I seem to remember encountering people who seemed to be of that bent (claiming to be "black magicians" or something), although I don't know that they were into satan, and I don't know that they saw themselves on the "evil" side of the typical good/evil dichotomy. They said they were into "forbidden arts" like necromancy and other stuff involving dead people and other creepy things. Is there anything to it? Or were they just kids who took some aspect of Dungeons & Dragons too seriously?

 

Well there's a darker side to anything I suppose. Michael Ryan, the Hungerford mass-murderer, was said to have been heavily involved in a variant of "Dungeons and Dragons" before he went on a shooting rampage in Hungerford in the UK, but this was never proved.

 

Despite the apparent credulity of all those to whom he told his stories, Ryan craved yet more fantasy. Imagine his delight, then, when he discovered that this was available via mail order. As if designed to cater specifically for his needs, Ryan is said to have paid £5 to become a subscriber to a bizarre postal game called ‘Further into Fantasy’. It was a cruder version of the better-known ‘Dungeons and Dragons’, the most popular of such fantasy war games. Power is earned through the murder of enemies and monsters, with players growing in power and status as they execute various grisly assignments allocated to them.

 

Opting to be a high priest of an evil serpent god, and paying £1.50 for each turn, Ryan adopted the code-name Phodius Tei. In July 1987 he received a final challenge from Set, the game’s serpent god, who lived on the planet Dorm: ‘You have been one of my greatest Terran priests and as such are worthy of the power I offer. But Phodius, you have one last point to prove ... can you kill your fellow Terrans? I offer you one last challenge. Will you accept, Phodius, to go back to Terra and slay them, to devour their souls in the name of Set the immortal god?’

 

TWO weeks later Ryan received what was to be his final message:’When at last you awake you are standing in a forest, there is a throbbing in your head, a madness that is the exhilaration of the serpent god, you know what you must do, know what power is to be gained from this.’

 

Ryan had indeed stood in a forest. Sue Godfrey had discovered that. It is reasonable to assume too that there had also been a throbbing in Ryan’s head, for he had taken two paracetamols on the morning of the massacre. In fact many of those who encountered Ryan that day would later refer to the blank expression on his face. ‘Brain-dead’ had been the most popular phrase of the day. And Ryan would himself tell Sergeant Brightwell that the entire day had been ‘like a bad dream’. Had he not therefore been acting out, in his own way, these coded commands received through the post, unable or unwilling to distinguish between fantasy and reality?

 

Of course it is one possibility, but by no means the only one. And in any case no evidence was ever produced to prove conclusively that Ryan had participated in these bizarre fantasy games, despite an investigation carried out by the Thames Valley Police. It is, therefore, simply impossible to say with any certainty precisely why Ryan carried out the Hungerford massacre. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that much more will ever be learned that will reveal his true state of mind. Because, as the Sunday Times so aptly put it: ‘his last shot blew the truth away’.

(Emphasis mine)

 

For what it's worth, Ryan was also supposed to have been a great fan of Rambo, the violent fictional character played by Sylvester Stallone in a number of movies, but this, too, has never been proved to anyone's satisfaction.

 

But in an age where instant answers are available for all things, the vicar’s view has not been easy to accept. Surely, people continue to insist, there has to be a compelling explanation. For many, the first line of enquiry leads them to a person who exists only on celluloid. For were not the exploits of the character Rambo in the film First Blood so strikingly similar to what actually took place in Hungerford as to be uncanny? Indeed, the Sunday Telegraph was soon asking, was Michael Ryan not ‘the man who thought he was Rambo’ London’s Evening Standard saw things slightly differently, more in terms of his aspirations. No, Ryan was ‘the lonely wimp who wanted to be Rambo’.

 

For myself I should like offer one theory, which is, I will concede, tenuous at best and perhaps absolute rot at worst, but for want of better, it is this. I believe it's perfectly possible for a man to "sell his soul". However, be it understood, I don't use that phrase in the melodramatic sense in which certain fundamentalist christians use it. I use it simply in the sense of someone, being of sound mind but extremely weak character, becoming so degenerate (and/or perhaps desperate), that he will do literally anything in order to achieve some desire of his, whether that desire be to become fabulously wealthy, or to gratify some sexual whim, or simply to become infamous for five minutes. I think Ryan was an example of this last-mentioned type.

 

Another example: For almost 20 years, beginning in April 1967, John Walker Jr sold highly secret information to the former USSR. In doing this, he must have known, as most if not all of what he sold concerned details of codes and cyphers, that he was almost certainly condemning several of his fellow Americans who depended on the security of these things, to a slow and painful death when they were betrayed by the Soviet's breaking of the system(s) used to communicate with them. None of this, however, mattered one iota to Walker; he rationalised it all by saying he was just "selling the yellow" (a slang phrase derived from the colour of some of the documents involved). Moreover, in the opinion of two very senior KGB officers:

 

Soviet KGB General Boris Aleksandrovich Solomatin, who oversaw Walker, later called him the “most important” spy ever recruited by Russia. John Walker gave away the “keys to your most secret code machines,” Solomatin bragged, “giving us the equivalent of a seat inside your Pentagon where we could read your most vital secrets.” KGB officer Vitaly Yurchenko was more blunt: “Walker was the greatest case in KGB history. We deciphered millions of your messages. If there had been a war, we would have won it.”

 

Again, this is a man who had, if you like, quite literally "sold his soul", in this case, for money.

 

Lastly may I say that, in history, there have been men who were so obsessed with the idea of obtaining absolute power, and having got it, keeping it, that they too would literally do anything to these ends. One need look no further than Hitler or Stalin for examples of this type.

 

I conclude by saying that it's the existence and deeds of people like this that makes some christians believe in Satanism in the way that they do. (Along with the biblical verses I quoted in my earlier post). Oh, their concept is right enough as I said, however their error lies in the simple fact that if a person is of such a certain weak, low, and treacherous character, then I should say, in my own honest opinion, that they scarcely need a "Devil to make them do these things"; they just do 'em anyway because that's their nature.

Casey

 

Ryan reference

 

Walker reference

[SWIM]

Satanism imo, in some cases is an actual search for the existance of god. Some of them reason that faith is "required" for believing in god, and that is why prayers are not answered, and communication is not given. On some levels a satanist is "trying" to validate the state of supernaturalism itself!

 

Hey if god won't prove himself, maybe satan, with his lack of scruples will!

 

The "Exorcism of emily rose", a movie recently that was supposed to be "true" tried to imply at the end that her possession was to be seen as proof of god somehow, like god gave us a "gift" by "letting" her be possessed...

 

Satanism, in some cases, is a method of validation. Hopefully anyone going that route will realize that satan is as non-existant as god.

 

Personally I never believed in satan, even as an xtian. Strangely, I have been "accused" of it, and also accused of "hating god".

 

Well for one thing, if I don't believe in one tooth fairy, I am certainly not going to believe in another. And, just like I don't hate unicorns, or leprechauns, I certainly don't hate god or satan either...

[hereticzero]

Satanism was created by christianity. Satan does not exist. Christians created him and those who worship Satan are as big a bunch of losers as those who believe in the Big Sky Daddy.

[MesaGman]

I'm curious to why Christians claim that Athiests are Satanists, when by denying the existance of God, as a myth, Satan, a creation of God, his war in heaven and his fall and all his 1/3 angels are all imaginary.....

[Neon Genesis]

I'm curious to why Christians claim that Athiests are Satanists, when by denying the existance of God, as a myth, Satan, a creation of God, his war in heaven and his fall and all his 1/3 angels are all imaginary.....

Because God is obviously revealed through nature and atheists know this but we ebil atheists are just suppressing the "truth" with our sinful wickedness.

[Kei]

Now, would any of you say that there's kind of a "dark side" strain of paganism or witchcraft apart from quote-unquote "satanism"?

 

I seem to remember encountering people who seemed to be of that bent (claiming to be "black magicians" or something), although I don't know that they were into satan, and I don't know that they saw themselves on the "evil" side of the typical good/evil dichotomy. They said they were into "forbidden arts" like necromancy and other stuff involving dead people and other creepy things. Is there anything to it? Or were they just kids who took some aspect of Dungeons & Dragons too seriously?

when you say "dark" i assume you mean harmful. There are those pagans and witches who do black magick, which is intentianally using it to harm someone. it is highly frowned upon as most pagans(not only wiccans) like to keep in mind the rede "if it harm none, do what you will".

 

there are indeed some pagans out there who consider themselves magicians, it is a legitimate religion, though i haven't done much looking into that one. i'm not sure if a "black magician" is an evil magician because most pagans think of black and white, light and dark as not good versus bad. it's just different aspects of the natural way things are. like summer and winter.

 

Like a yin-yang.

 

that being said, i have never encountered a magician at all, so it is highly likely they were just way into D&D.

[Kei]

I'm curious to why Christians claim that Athiests are Satanists, when by denying the existance of God, as a myth, Satan, a creation of God, his war in heaven and his fall and all his 1/3 angels are all imaginary.....

most christians think anyone who is not christian is a satanist.

 

it's just name calling to make themselves feel more "holy" and trying to prove even further that their way is the only way.

 

it's really kindergarten stuff.

[BlueGiant]

Hate to say this, but most of your info appears to be bad, dated, urban legend or lies spread by fundagelicals to get others asses into the pews. Most Satanists as far as I know are actually Atheists with some ritualistic leanings. Also, Chick Tracts equal complete and utter Failure. Just propaganda and outright lies for Krayyst.

 

The Occult™ doesn't exist as a monolithic entity, by the way. (There is a saying that if you ask ten pagans the same question you'll get eleven answers.) And there are quite a few varieties from your fluff-bunnies and white-lighters to your full-blown left-hand-path devotes with "Bend Over" incense (and I've actually seen that blend for sale).

 

Satanist organizations (and I use that word in a very loose sense), like other pagan groups tends to be very fragmented and convoluted. Research into them, like any other group, takes time and effort. I will agree that a lot of teenagers do the I'm a satanist thing for the "boo-scary" factor. Effectively they are fluff-bunnies in and of themselves. Most grow out of it.

 

Oh, and actual Satanists really don't give two-shits about other's religions, unless it interferes with said Satanist, in which case, it is perfectly okay for the gloves to come off.

 

Does that help?

[Vomit Comet]

Hate to say this, but most of your info appears to be bad, dated, urban legend or lies spread by fundagelicals to get others asses into the pews.

 

It was the info I was led to believe formerly. As for this thread, I knew when I wrote the OP that most of it was bunk.

 

Also, Chick Tracts equal complete and utter Failure.

 

Well, obviously.

 

The Occult doesn't exist as a monolithic entity, by the way.

 

I knew that.

 

Satanist organizations (and I use that word in a very loose sense), like other pagan groups tends to be very fragmented and convoluted.

 

No kidding! I sorted through the dumbed-down Wikipedia entries and still couldn't put together any kind of coherent picture. Not that Wikipedia holds water in any serious research setting, but where else does one turn for things such as this?

 

Effectively they are fluff-bunnies in and of themselves. Most grow out of it.

 

I don't get the "fluff bunnies" bit. Does it mean they're airheads? Or does it mean that they're light fluffy airy peace-and-love faeries despite being obsessed with Cannibal Corpse?

 

Oh, and actual Satanists really don't give two-shits about other's religions, unless it interferes with said Satanist, in which case, it is perfectly okay for the gloves to come off.

 

Why did the black metal guys go around burning down all those historic churches in Norway?

[BlueGiant]

For better information (at least as a starting point), I'd recommend the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. They try to remain neutral on matters related to all religions and actually put some effort into their research. In other words, they tend to be a lot less wrong than most guys online.

 

Fluffy-bunnies are a phenomenon typically in Wiccan and Neopagan circles. They typically are people who claim credentials they don't have, are reincarnations of famous people (I have run into a few dozen Cleopatras and even more people who claimed to have been burned at the stake in Salem) who have a complete disregard for research and facts (for instance, no one was burned at the stake in Salem, one was crushed, and the rest were hung). And remain willfully ignorant. Of course anyone who actually tells them they are verifiably wrong is a evil-meanie-poo-poo-head who is probably working for the secret Christian conspiracy to repress their Speshulness. Other common symptoms include claiming to be a high priest(ess) after reading one book, claiming supernatural heritage, and claiming that all goddesses are just the same thing, so Kali is interchangeable with Hera, and gods are just a part of the patriarchy, or also in a similar boat, so gods like Ra, Loki, and Papa Ghede are all the same thing...

 

As far as the black metal guys burning down churches, I'm not familiar with that incident, so I couldn't tell you. The OCRT site mentioned above may have some information for you about it, though.

 

BTW, I do not (usually) claim to be a Satanist, but I have looked over their stuff over the years, in my never ending quest to appropriate components from other religions that actually work.

[Vomit Comet]

For better information (at least as a starting point), I'd recommend the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. They try to remain neutral on matters related to all religions and actually put some effort into their research. In other words, they tend to be a lot less wrong than most guys online.

 

Tanx.

 

Fluffy-bunnies are a phenomenon typically in Wiccan and Neopagan circles. They typically are people who claim credentials they don't have, are reincarnations of famous people (I have run into a few dozen Cleopatras and even more people who claimed to have been burned at the stake in Salem) who have a complete disregard for research and facts (for instance, no one was burned at the stake in Salem, one was crushed, and the rest were hung). And remain willfully ignorant. Of course anyone who actually tells them they are verifiably wrong is a evil-meanie-poo-poo-head who is probably working for the secret Christian conspiracy to repress their Speshulness. Other common symptoms include claiming to be a high priest(ess) after reading one book, claiming supernatural heritage, and claiming that all goddesses are just the same thing, so Kali is interchangeable with Hera, and gods are just a part of the patriarchy, or also in a similar boat, so gods like Ra, Loki, and Papa Ghede are all the same thing...

 

HAHAHAHA!!!! I know the type well!! A close friend of mine used to be the organizer of a druidic grove and was very serious about his amateur scholarship, and he would practically have an aneurysm every time he encountered one of those types.

 

As far as the black metal guys burning down churches, I'm not familiar with that incident, so I couldn't tell you. The OCRT site mentioned above may have some information for you about it, though.

 

Well, if you do dive into that one, it's going to be a confusing morass. A lot of the guys involved have said things on the record and then sworn up and down they said no such thing years later. Also, there's heavy debate and speculation as to how directly the leaders (band members of groups like Gorgoroth, Mayhem, etc.) were involved versus mere followers. From what I've pieced together, they seem to kind of syncretize Satanism with Asatru, and I've heard some key members claim that their goal is to bring about the systemic expulsion of Christianity from the Norselands. Whatever the case, those guys were some really nasty, genuinely violent assholes... regardless of which heathen bricolage they wrapped it up in.

 

Well, those guys have declined in importance in the Norweigan metal scene. Most the current wave of black metallers are jokesters overdoing it with the evil KISS makeup and ridiculous orc weaponry.

 

"Black metal is for geeks who aren't even cool enough to play Dungeons and Dragons." - Crotchduster

[BlueGiant]

"Black metal is for geeks who aren't even cool enough to play Dungeons and Dragons." - Crotchduster

 

I am going to have to steal that one-liner, it wins.

 

And yeah, "satanic" crimes are often a real morass to try to get through. Especially if the media and preachers catch wind of it, as the truth takes a serious backseat to selling the story, or getting asses in the pews and cash in the plate.

 

The Satanic Ritual Abuse cases in the 80's and early 90's in the US are a good example of this. Turns out none of it happened, but that didn't stop the "just" from ruining people's lives over their delusions.

[Vomit Comet]

"Black metal is for geeks who aren't even cool enough to play Dungeons and Dragons." - Crotchduster

 

I am going to have to steal that one-liner, it wins.

 

Crazy-ass band by the way (Crotchduster). Look them up on MySpace. You know how Weird Al sometimes writes his own songs that aren't parodies of someone else's stuff? Take that and mix it all up with death metal, and make the lyrical content all super disgusting and nasty.

 

And yeah, "satanic" crimes are often a real morass to try to get through. Especially if the media and preachers catch wind of it, as the truth takes a serious backseat to selling the story, or getting asses in the pews and cash in the plate.

 

Well, if you go to Norway, absolutely everyone you meet will know all about what happened. Outside of Norway, and particularly in this country (aside from extreme metal fans in their late 20s on up), not so much. About 20-something churches did indeed get burned down in a wave of arsons. That did indeed happen. And it's pretty certain that some in the inner circle of the black metal scene were involved. We do know they were publicly celebrating it and claiming that it was the heroic deeds of the black metal scene. Also, the people directly affected were mellow old state-sponsored Scandinavian Lutherans, rather than hysterical American fundies. It was also considered a great crime against Norway because some of these churches were nearly 1,000 years old and were cultural treasures. Imagine if some psycho went and blew up St. Stephen's cathedral in Vienna. The Viennese, despite being as cosmopolitan European as it gets, would be absolutely devastated.

 

The Satanic Ritual Abuse cases in the 80's and early 90's in the US are a good example of this. Turns out none of it happened, but that didn't stop the "just" from ruining people's lives over their delusions.

 

I wonder what documented cases are out there of self-professed satanic covens/groves/churches/whatever actually doing harm to human beings.

[Guest InvisiblePinkUnicornPony]

Hey VC, I am currently out of the Black Metal scene I just don't like the mindset of alot of those people and I mean no offense. I just honestly got tired of all those NSBM racists fuckers I kept running into. I just enjoy the sellouts like Satyricon and Dimmu Borgir (saw them live last year and I almost creamed in my pants) from time to time.

As far as the topic goes, I can say I used to be apart of the Church of Satan ( I had my card, lol) when I was trying to break away from christianity. During the time I can honestly say I used it to frightened christians and scary them away. At the time apart of me also believed that God and Satan were the same so Satanism was just another aspect of God and that it may possibly help me. When Anton LaVey didn't give me what I needed I started to explore Devil Worship and reading Joy of Satan's literature. Satan became a living, dark, and very real creature, to me that I believed I could pray to for power.

[The Sage Nabooru]

There was a sizeable minority who somehow syncretized the character of Satan with pre-Christian stuff, like weird esoteric Egyptian and Roman shit. For instance, some of them said that satan was a stand-in for the Egyptian god Set or something like that. Whatever the fuck... it all sounds pretty made-up to me, then as well as now. Postmodern religious pastiche, in other words. I guess that's how these guys escaped the tag of being merely derivative of Christianity.

 

That annoys me to no end. If you want to make-believe you worship Satan, fine, but don't pretend that any non-Christian deity is a candidate for being a demonic being. Then you're just buying into Christian shit.

[BlueGiant]

There was a sizeable minority who somehow syncretized the character of Satan with pre-Christian stuff, like weird esoteric Egyptian and Roman shit. For instance, some of them said that satan was a stand-in for the Egyptian god Set or something like that. Whatever the fuck... it all sounds pretty made-up to me, then as well as now. Postmodern religious pastiche, in other words. I guess that's how these guys escaped the tag of being merely derivative of Christianity.

 

That annoys me to no end. If you want to make-believe you worship Satan, fine, but don't pretend that any non-Christian deity is a candidate for being a demonic being. Then you're just buying into Christian shit.

 

Well, if you're going to chose some other pantheon's god for that, you could make worse choices than Set. It wouldn't be the first Egyptian deity that has been related to a Christian one (Osiris, Horus and Jesus come to mind).

 

Also, AFAIK, they make no claim that their version of Set or worship thereof is the way they did it in Khem all those years ago (I am assuming that we are talking about the Temple of Set here.)

[charley]

I've been a contributing member of the church of Satan for many years, and I think I know how you could have got the impression they were just "fucking around". They have a highly attenuated manner of public relations and tend to treat any unique social circle in a different way. When talking to the "metal" community, what you are going to see and hear is a lot of pentagrams, trinkets (to look awesome to your metallic friends when you wear them), and a lot of "hail Satan's" shouted in the air. That is in keeping with the entertainment / fashion atmosphere and level of interest. When dealing with the general public, a demeanor of a private-secular-humanist organization is used to guard against hysterical fears from other religious people, and so on as needed.

 

The reason so many different impressions are made is that long ago it was determined that no really fair and objective treatment of the C. of S. from the general public was possible. So, there is no real recruitment effort, and prospective members are kept in an outer circle unless invited to join.

 

In that most organizations of any kind make direct and straight-forward efforts to expand, it is easy to assume the C. of S. is also, and that you are getting the impression of who they really are when you see their public persona. So I can see how you thought they were "fucking around".