Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Deva]

I don't believe a prayer for rain will be effective....

 

That is what I meant.

[rayskidude]

... I don't believe prayer has any effect on natural events.

Oh I think prayer can have an affect on natural events. I suspect prayer affects the mind and thus the behavior of those who pray. I don't believe a prayer for rain will be effective, but if I pray for good will to befall another then I suspect I'll act in accordance with the prayer. It's all about the mind and it's relation to the the rest of the world.

Absolutely! That's why when Christians pray for things like jobs they get them (from a circle of Christian friends). Or when they pray for help for their home, another (Christian) may give them a home.

 

Did God do these things? Humans did.

 

In a sense, religion may have played a part, but only in the same sense that Freemasons help one another out of loyalty and group altruism.

 

Whoa - slow down!

 

God can work either immediately or directly - as He did in Creation; or He can work mediately, thru means (indirectly). When Christians pray, God is attentive to our prayers - He is our Heavenly Father. He has instructed us to cast all our cares on Him, because He cares for us. And actually all prayers of all peoples are heard by God.

 

So if God chooses to answer prayer thru a Christian brother - why is that not legit? IN this case, both Christians are blessed - one in giving and one in receiving. And God receives the glory in both their minds for how God orchestrated the circumstances to bring this about.

 

But are you unaware of Christians receiving jobs, improved health, joyous relationships, or whatever thru non-Christian channels? These phenomena happen everyday.

[rayskidude]

... I don't believe prayer has any effect on natural events.

Oh I think prayer can have an affect on natural events. I suspect prayer affects the mind and thus the behavior of those who pray. I don't believe a prayer for rain will be effective, but if I pray for good will to befall another then I suspect I'll act in accordance with the prayer. It's all about the mind and it's relation to the the rest of the world.

 

Our prayers on behalf of others will certainly have an impact on our attitude towards them. Many have prayed sincerely for "enemies" >> and they have seen God change their hearts changed to feel compassion and forgiveness towards those with whom they were at odds.

 

But, also >> prayer can affect natural events, such as rain. God has promised to care for the needs of His children, and imploring God for rain could very well result in sufficient rain. There is no guarantee that God will send rain in response to prayer >> it's determined mainly by what God is accomplishing in each unique situation. Scripture indicates that God withholds rain as judgement, as an opportunity to show His power against false gods, to teach us humility in His Creation (that we're not in control, but that we are dependent), etc.

 

All things are done for God's glory and our good.

[Shyone]

So if God chooses to answer prayer thru a Christian brother - why is that not legit? IN this case, both Christians are blessed - one in giving and one in receiving. And God receives the glory in both their minds for how God orchestrated the circumstances to bring this about.

 

Violates the free will of the Christian brother.

 

Plus, there's nothing overtly miraculous about it. It's just people helping people, which, incidentally, I do every day.

 

But are you unaware of Christians receiving jobs, improved health, joyous relationships, or whatever thru non-Christian channels? These phenomena happen everyday.

 

Happens to atheists every day too! Kinda illustrates my point. It's people helping people (and maybe a bit of Luck - praise Fortuna).

[Phanta]

Our prayers on behalf of others will certainly have an impact on our attitude towards them. Many have prayed sincerely for "enemies" >> and they have seen God change their hearts changed to feel compassion and forgiveness towards those with whom they were at odds.

 

I've had my heart changed to feel compassion and forgiveness toward an "enemy". She traumatized me throughout my childhood, when I was small and helpless. I am changing so fast right now! Tonight in particular, I am filled with love and compassion and release. Secular therapy has been my guide, Buddhist meditation my practice, and a good dose of knowing in my heart she was doing her best, and she was sick. How can I not forgive?

 

Phanta

[Skankboy]

Our prayers on behalf of others will certainly have an impact on our attitude towards them. Many have prayed sincerely for "enemies" >> and they have seen God change their hearts changed to feel compassion and forgiveness towards those with whom they were at odds.

I'd be interested in hearing of an example of this in real life... It happens pretty often in the bible, but I've yet to see anything like this in reality...

[Legion]

prayer can affect natural events, such as rain. God has promised to care for the needs of His children, and imploring God for rain could very well result in sufficient rain.

Alrighty then. Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. No doubt.

[Phanta]

prayer can affect natural events, such as rain. God has promised to care for the needs of His children, and imploring God for rain could very well result in sufficient rain.

 

Is all rain a product of prayer?

 

If not, what are your criteria for determining if a particular rainfall was a result of your prayer or a result of the regular rain process?

 

P

[NotBlinded]

prayer can affect natural events, such as rain. God has promised to care for the needs of His children, and imploring God for rain could very well result in sufficient rain.

Alrighty then. Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. No doubt.

Legion, don't you know that changing the will of God is possible through prayer? Every Christian knows what is best and implores God to listen to them. What's the matter with you?

[rayskidude]

Our prayers on behalf of others will certainly have an impact on our attitude towards them. Many have prayed sincerely for "enemies" >> and they have seen God change their hearts changed to feel compassion and forgiveness towards those with whom they were at odds.

I'd be interested in hearing of an example of this in real life... It happens pretty often in the bible, but I've yet to see anything like this in reality...

 

I once had a supervisor who, over a six year period, accused me of;

 

A poor work ethic ( I would work Saturday mornings and come in late Monday - he had forgotten about our agreement), being unfaithful to my wife (because I was training a female co-worker in procedures, which involved riding in a work van together), corrupting the morals of youth (because I was once at lunch with a college intern for 90 minutes - service at the restaurant was slow), stated that I had lax morals because I would take my family to the beach, and threatened to have me fired if I showed our contract administrator how we did our work - even though our contract stated we were obligated to demonstrate our procedures and analyses. And he also once stated that I advocated "the triumph of evil over good." Yet, he would occasionally get angry and throw reagent bottles or printers across the lab.

 

Needless to say, the lab director and engineering dept head both stated that I had done well, while he was reprimanded. And though there were a number of tense times at work - we generally worked well together.

 

However, it remains that God had placed that person in my life for a reason - for my good as well as my supervisor's good. And though I did seek to forgive and move on - I certainly had thoughts of ill-will towards him. But, I was arrested in my own mind one day when I realized that I was not praying for my supervisor, and therefore, I could not state that I loved him as God has called me to love others. Therefore, I began to pray for his welfare - and his family. I began to inquire regularly how things were going in his life, that I might gauge in what ways I could pray for specific issues in his life.

 

I saw that God was changing my heart towards him. And I further resolved to try and be more determined to see if there was anything that I was doing to 'push his buttons' >> as much of his reactions did not make sense to me (or others). I certainly didn't absolve myself of any & all guilt in this matter, but I was puzzled at what would lead a person to have such anger and make unfounded accusations.

 

All in all, I did learn to express love and care towards someone with whom I was at odds.

 

This is just an example from my life - I don't think its particularly noteworthy. I am aware of much better examples from other Christians I know. And especially the examples from men such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer (killed by the Nazis) and Richard Wurmbrand (tortured in Romania by the communist Ceacescu)- but it would be better to read the books written by them. BTW, some police interrogators in Romania have become Christians.

 

It's also obvious that I remember lots about all this that took place 20 years ago; going thru this certainly confused me to some degree and it wasn't easy. But as I look back, God taught me how to love those who mistreat me - and that's a good thing. But this also gives me greater appreciation for what He did when He gave up His Son to die in my place for my rebellious sin.

[bornagainathiest]

Here too Ray!

 

You know what you should do. Please do it.

 

BAA.

[Sconnor]

Our prayers on behalf of others will certainly have an impact on our attitude towards them. Many have prayed sincerely for "enemies" >> and they have seen God change their hearts changed to feel compassion and forgiveness towards those with whom they were at odds.

I'd be interested in hearing of an example of this in real life... It happens pretty often in the bible, but I've yet to see anything like this in reality...

 

However, it remains that God had placed that person in my life for a reason - for my good as well as my supervisor's good...I began to pray for his welfare - and his family. I began to inquire regularly how things were going in his life, that I might gauge in what ways I could pray for specific issues in his life.

 

I saw that God was changing my heart towards him.

 

All in all, I did learn to express love and care towards someone with whom I was at odds.

 

God taught me how to love those who mistreat me - and that's a good thing.

 

rayskidude,

 

Well aren't you one lucky son of a bitch! God went out of his way, for little old you, to learn about how to love those who wronged you (whoop-D-frickin-doo), while the rest of his earthly children are forsaken -- suffering egregiously, while their prayers fall on deaf divine ears.

 

Isn't it just great that you are god's little special one and he used his awesome powers to intervene on your behalf, so you could learn how to care for someone you were at odds with, while god neglects the rest of his earthly children, who at this very moment are being repeatedly raped, or suffering from some hideous disease, or suffering in ways we can't even begin to imagine......but YOU...god looks after you -- aren't you the divine jewel.

 

In reality, you're nothing but a deluded whack-job christian, who is so insecure that you must conjure up an imaginary heavenly best friend, who takes an interest in you, who cares for you, so your pathetic ego can have the illusion of self-worth. cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

 

--S.

[prove_17]

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

 

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

[bdp]

an honest and good heart,

 

cuz, ya know, we're all DIS-honest with filthy little hearts.

[Ouroboros]

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

So what fruit have you brought?

[Guest Justyna]

I believe in Jesus because of my own experiences. I was saved when I was 12 years old and started a deep and personal relationship with Christ. I even remember hearing Gods voice and feelings His pressence when I was 3 years old! My parents are both not saved (never were) and I find this to be amazing. I am the only Christian in my family and God has protected me from a lot of things in my life. This is why I believe. No science or theology is going to change my real life experiences with God

[Guest Goathead]

Justyna, really, I mean come on. Just because they don't have any evidence to support their beliefs doesn't mean you have to try and show that to them.

[Guest Goathead]

I say live and let live, whether Christian, Catholic, atheist, or agnostic.

[river]

With respect to TexasFreethinker's post in the Lion's Den, I'm starting a part 2 version of his question which spawned probably the most read thread on this site with over 41,150 views, and 1,576 responses on 79 pages. It was finally closed due to sheer size, but it seems a question that obviously continued to spark many discussions from many responders. Therefore I'm reposting his original question here in the Colosseum to re-open the question for continued responses and discussions.

 

TexasFreethinker's original question:

 

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

[DesertBob]

...I think Jesus' teachings and life directly reflect the nature of God and they tell me that God has invited mankind to partner with him in the processes of creation to literally bring heaven to earth through non-violent, persuasive, self-giving love....

 

1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD Jesus sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD Jesus. 2 This is what the LORD Jesus Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

 

Either you are delusional or you haven't read the book.

You underestimate the complex system of interpretation that elegantly tap dances around this. There's not a theologian alive who will support your strike-thru of LORD and substituting Jesus. To the Christian mind Jesus ushered in a "New Testament" based on grace rather than law. Sort of like FDR's New Deal. The Old Testament "deal" was supposed to show that man can't possibly live up to a legalistic system. Jesus solved the problem by forgiving everyone carte blanche and satisfying the demand for justice and perfection that issues from the "father" side of the godhead.

 

All I'm saying is you accomplish nothing with an argument like this in the Christian mind because you simply show your theological ignorance.

 

The real response to this poster's statement is that if Jesus was supposed to usher in heaven on earth, he's had 2,000 years to do it and the results speak for themselves. If the world is supposed to become more loving and peaceful, the nicest thing you can say is that the experiment is an utter failure.

[DesertBob]

I believe in Jesus because of my own experiences. I was saved when I was 12 years old and started a deep and personal relationship with Christ. I even remember hearing Gods voice and feelings His pressence when I was 3 years old! My parents are both not saved (never were) and I find this to be amazing. I am the only Christian in my family and God has protected me from a lot of things in my life. This is why I believe. No science or theology is going to change my real life experiences with God

You believe in Jesus because of inner subjective experiences including hearing voices and feeling unseen presences?? And you're amazed that others don't buy into this? Listen to yourself, J.

 

Even as a Christian I would have cringed at your statement because my particular sect decried reliance on subjective feelings and experiences to determine the validity of faith. To us, it was a matter of black and white logic based on what was written in the Bible. I suppose I still basically agree with this because the logical flaws in the Bible led me away from Christianity. The only way to maintain faith in the light of massive evidence mounting up against it is to do exactly what you have done: cling to self-referential compulsive thoughts and state that "no [system of thinking] is going to change my ... experiences". What can anyone possibly say to that. You've place yourself beyond reason. As such, your post serves only as the perfect capstone to this thread by being a case study of what led us all away from faith.

 

Hint: you're not helping your cause here.

[JadedAtheist]

I think there is for me a threefold reason why I cling to "the faith".

 

Firstly, is my subjective experience. I experienced a personal change that I find troubling to attribute to any naturalistic cause; not to say there isn't a naturalistic explanation. When I decided to convert, I had in mind to be the same person I was before. I didn't want to become a "religious nutcase". When I prayed, I felt an immediate change. Not exactly emotionally but I threw out all my "bad stuff", quit my swearing, quit lying to my parents to get out of trouble and faced the consequences and I started going to church and reading the Bible. If you had of known me even weeks prior to this, you would be absolutely amazed that I, of all people became a Christian. Most people didn't believe me at first, some even took months to accept it.

 

Secondly, there doesn't seem to be any better answers (or perhaps "answers that I like") out there. Christianity seems to provide a clear and coherent worldview that explains sufficiently the way things are and through that lens everything makes sense. Life isn't a mystery and everything falls into place with an answer. Of course others could claim this of their belief system and that is one thing that unnerves me about my beliefs. My experiences and comprehension of facts to support my belief system is often called a "confirmation bias".

 

Lastly, historically the historicity of Christ seems to be impossible to explain away. No one questions for example whether or not Paul existed. By his own account in Galatians 1-2 he converted (once you work out the timings) a couple of years after the gospel and Acts claim Christ ascended into heaven. He also mentions the Jerusalem counsel and how he met up with the other apostles. 1 Corinthians 15 mentions the apostles and the 500 witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Paul, the other apostles and Jesus Christ were all historic people and all of them were quite convinced Christ rose again. Paul was even bold enough to point people to other witnesses that were still alive to be able to prove him wrong. The best explanation I've heard against this is "group hallucinations" and Paul's vision was some major mental breakdown. I don't know who sounds more deluded to be honest sometimes

[DesertBob]

I think there is for me a threefold reason why I cling to "the faith".

 

Firstly, is my subjective experience. I experienced a personal change that I find troubling to attribute to any naturalistic cause; not to say there isn't a naturalistic explanation. When I decided to convert, I had in mind to be the same person I was before. I didn't want to become a "religious nutcase". When I prayed, I felt an immediate change. Not exactly emotionally but I threw out all my "bad stuff", quit my swearing, quit lying to my parents to get out of trouble and faced the consequences and I started going to church and reading the Bible. If you had of known me even weeks prior to this, you would be absolutely amazed that I, of all people became a Christian. Most people didn't believe me at first, some even took months to accept it.

The simpler explanation is that you simply decided to grow up, and it so happens that Christianity gave you a mental hook to make that decision and stick with it long enough for it to basically take.

 

People have all sorts of cathartic, life-altering experiences naturally. They fall in love or acquire a hero or mentor; they are disillusioned by said lovers or mentors; they discover a personal passion; they have horrific accidents and survive them, and become by turns transcendent or bitter; and so on. Why is this any different just because it was precipitated by religious sentiment? The bottom line is that unbelievers "turn their lives around" every day; Christianity is not a necessary element. The church would have you believe that you're a helpless, ineffectual worm without it, and then when you demonstrate otherwise, they take all the credit for it.

Secondly ... life isn't a mystery and everything falls into place with an answer ... often called a "confirmation bias".

You've answered your own assertion there. I loved the certitude that faith gave me too, until I figured out that it was false.

Lastly, historically the historicity of Christ seems to be impossible to explain away. No one questions for example whether or not Paul existed ... Paul was even bold enough to point people to other witnesses that were still alive to be able to prove him wrong. The best explanation I've heard against this is "group hallucinations" and Paul's vision was some major mental breakdown. I don't know who sounds more deluded to be honest sometimes

Au contraire, there are many ways to debunk the historicity of Christ. For example, despite the remarkable things he is said to have done, not a single secular historian mentions his existence except Flavius Josephus, who lived in the area at the time and wrote a couple of sentences about him -- sentences that have been shown in recent decades to be likely forgeries as older manuscripts have been discovered that lack these sentences.

 

Most of what you cite about Paul is internal evidence from the Bible itself. The fact that a document has internal consistency is proof of nothing but clever writing -- and the Bible has many internal inconsistencies, even if this isn't one of them. Or is it? How do you know that Paul actually wrote what he wrote when he's alleged to have written it given that the original manuscripts do not exist for a single book or fragment of the New Testament?

 

I agree that mass hysteria is a lame argument and it isn't needed in any case. Personally I suspect Paul was a real historical figure, as were some other early church figures depicted in scripture. So what? There were real people behind the genesis of Christianity, which is a real religion; no one disputes that. It's beside the point.

[Shyone]

Secondly, there doesn't seem to be any better answers (or perhaps "answers that I like") out there. Christianity seems to provide a clear and coherent worldview that explains sufficiently the way things are and through that lens everything makes sense.

 

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[prochristian]

"It isn't as perfect as you think. For instance, the moon isn't in a perfect path, but follows an elliptic track. It's closest to Earth at its perigee of 364,000 km, and farthest at the apogee of 407,000 km. That means the Moon at perigee is 10% closer to Earth than at its apogee.

 

"The same argument goes for Earth and the Sun. The path of Earth follows an elliptic track too. So, no, it's not "perfect" or "exact" at all.

 

"You don't believe we come from tiny cells? So, have you heard about the egg, sperm and the first cell that grows into a fetus? You never studied biology? 6,000,000,000 people, alive today, came from one cell. Everyone.

[actually one cell produces one baby or two cells to be exact=one baby not one cell produces a hundred babies. ever heard of quintuplets thay are rare mister biology]

 

Regarding the apes, there's evidence in the DNA to show that we come from the apes, or the alternative answer is that God intentionally created faulty identical genes that only we and apes share, and no other animals.

[the opposite "Humans have a characteristic diploid chromosome number of 2N=46 whereas the other Great Apes (orangutans, gorillas, and chimps) are all 2N=48" clearly a different system of genes.

 

 

first of all i liked the conclusion "Another side to the argument of "perfect creation" is that, how come a "perfect" universe can only exist if a "perfect" creator created it? Doesn't that imply that the "perfect" creator must also be created? How else can he be "perfect" without being created, while the "perfect" universe cannot?'

that is clever. but then you have the chicken egg logic and even science does not claim infinite but a start point so the creator is the ultimate first by logic

a. jenna said due to evidence. follow the evidence and find a creator

b. "Everything in the universe, from the distance of the sun being just right, to the distance of the moon being just right, to trees giving off oxygen and taking in carbon dioxide, and us taking in oxygen and us giving off carbon dioxide, it all just fits too neatly for it to have been an accident.

she never said perfect so arguing that the distance changes just makes her point stronger that even the changes are within the range of life wow

and the cosupport system that is a strong argument against chance-evolution that two systems would develop in time to support each other. if trees were billions of years before animals what did they breathe until animals evolved!

big trees with leaves would run out of air and die hundreds of years before!