Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[agnosticator]

Deva, I make no presumptions on here to judge you or to lord anything over you or anyone else on this site. I am simply here to warn you of the results of sin and where it leads. What you do with that knowledge is completely out of my hands.

 

 

Sorry to butt in Deva, but Caleb is arrogant and ignorant. You, Caleb, assume we don't know all this. You come here with your pompous assholiness to convert former christians! I hope you mature and realize what a fool for christ you are being. I also hope that someday you will see that being a human has nothing to do with christian "sin". We have nothing "to turn away from". Save yourself from this foolish and decadent religion by thinking objectively about the whole plan of salvation. It's just a power trip like Islam is.

[RiverDale]

Mr. McCreary, I don't think DevaLight or any of the others are saying the story of Jesus rising from the dead is not truly an awe inspiring tale,--peverse as it is. I am pretty sure what is being said is IT DID NOT HAPPEN. But don't let me speak for them, you should go back and read their posts until you understand them yourself.

 

In the meantime, put your god rattler back in your pocket, you don't scare us.

[MereChristian]

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

 

I could answer that I am a Christian wholly by the grace of God, but that answer is nearly as unhelpful as 'I have faith.' It may be as Van Til said: "The only proof for the existence of God is that without God you couldn't prove anything." Of course, Van Til was speaking of his method of presuppositional apologetics, but I think it's applicable to the life of a believer, too. I am a Christian because I have found it a necessary foundation for my life.

 

I spent about six years as a strong agnostic - perhaps a better word would be skeptic. I constantly questioned everything - convention, received wisdom, any certainty I encountered, and as a result I learned some interesting stuff about how knowledge works in practice, but it took me time to consciously apply what I'd learned, to be happy with reasonable certainty and constant questioning and stop seeking after some mythic Grand Unified System of Thought. Very few of us hold to perfectly harmonious beliefs; at the very least some of our beliefs are in tension. It's a part of living and I'm not a philosopher. Christianity works for me and I've seen it work for other people. Beyond that, I see little to assert. As a skeptic I was depressed, self-destructive, and rudderless. I'm well aware that this could be me looking back at my past with Christian-tinted glasses, fiercely asserting that It's All Better Now to justify my beliefs. I'm also aware that many agnostics and atheists are perfectly happy. They are welcome to their happiness; I can only speak for myself.

 

I hope that's helpful

[Guest I Love Dog]

That leaves us in an awkward position. If Christ did in fact rise, His claims are true. So you must make that decision. What do I do with this man who lived in Israel over 2000 years ago? If He is risen, Christianity is right, all other religions are wrong. You must then decide for yourself how you will deal with this. Will you accept Him for who He is? Or will you reject Christ and bear the burden of the negative repercussions that are to follow?

 

OK, in a civil way, I will ask what exactly you mean by this paragraph?

 

 

What do I mean by this paragraph? Exactly what it says. If Jesus really rose from the dead, you have to take His claims to deity seriously. If He really is the way, the truth and the life and the only way to the Father, His resurrection would verify those claims. And we must stare face-to-face with the objective fact that this man claimed to be God and rose from the dead to prove it. We are left with no other choice. If Christianity's claim to the resurrection is right, EVERY OTHER RELIGION IN THE WORLD IS WRONG. There can be no talk of "everybody just says the same things differently" in regards to religion. To the Muslim, God is only one and to equate Christ with Allah is shirk. To the Jew, Jesus is not the Messiah. To some Buddhists and Hindus, there isn't even such thing as a personal creator God.

 

So the point remains this: if Christ has risen, YOU are faced with a choice. Accept Him for who He is or reject Him. It is black and white. The results one way or the other are spelled out clearly in Scripture.

 

What you need to face here is that the story of Jesus rising from the dead was an old story from thousands of years before Christianity, one that possibly even originated in India, from the Hindus. If someone is prepared to accept that Christos rose from the dead, said his goodbyes and went up into heaven, then that person deserves Christianity, for what it's worth.

 

Resurrection is not unique to Christian fables and myths. It's rehashed, like everything else in Christianity.

[Shyone]

I could answer that I am a Christian wholly by the grace of God, but that answer is nearly as unhelpful as 'I have faith.' It may be as Van Til said: "The only proof for the existence of God is that without God you couldn't prove anything." Of course, Van Til was speaking of his method of presuppositional apologetics, but I think it's applicable to the life of a believer, too. I am a Christian because I have found it a necessary foundation for my life.

 

I spent about six years as a strong agnostic - perhaps a better word would be skeptic. I constantly questioned everything - convention, received wisdom, any certainty I encountered, and as a result I learned some interesting stuff about how knowledge works in practice, but it took me time to consciously apply what I'd learned, to be happy with reasonable certainty and constant questioning and stop seeking after some mythic Grand Unified System of Thought. Very few of us hold to perfectly harmonious beliefs; at the very least some of our beliefs are in tension. It's a part of living and I'm not a philosopher. Christianity works for me and I've seen it work for other people. Beyond that, I see little to assert. As a skeptic I was depressed, self-destructive, and rudderless. I'm well aware that this could be me looking back at my past with Christian-tinted glasses, fiercely asserting that It's All Better Now to justify my beliefs. I'm also aware that many agnostics and atheists are perfectly happy. They are welcome to their happiness; I can only speak for myself.

 

I hope that's helpful

 

That is helpful. Food for thought.

 

Thank you for sharing, and welcome to the site.

 

Phanta

On one hand, I'd like to tear into the beliefs above. On the other, I have to respect that he was asked, voluntarily answered, and he did so in a respectful manner. I also think that, as much as one can be true to him or herself, he is being honest with us.

 

OH, well, just one little - thing. Cognitive dissonance. That Grand Unified System of Thought does exist. The data that doesn't fit is the key to understanding. Omniscience isn't possible, and it shouldn't be the goal, but from where I sit everything fits perfectly. Absolutely perfectly. Not a problem with evil, no problems with textual criticism, no problems with the impossible, the fantastical, or the contradictory.

 

Everything makes perfect sense. My cognitive dissonance disappeared as the fog vanished.

[Laura76]

It sounds crazy and complicated, but aside from Creation itself, there is only one thing that stands in the way of me and being a total atheist. And this is it:

 

when I was just a young girl, about to turn 16, (I had not dated yet and did not plan to until I was in bible college... which never happened)... God, "told" me in detail about my child. I had asked for a bible from my parents as a birthday gift-- they finally got me one a month and day after my birthday and dated the bible for that day. Through this, God spoke to me and told me all about my child. That he would be a boy, my only, why he would be my only, his birthdate, many things. I tried to forget the power of that revelation, but could never quite forget him. My parents suddenly divorced when i was 18 and I began having panic/anxiety troubles. They got new partners and discarded me like a mistake they made long ago. In short, I was not welcomed and instead became homeless. I was attacked and raped-- this is how my son came to be. Alot of terrible things continued to happen to me. None of my christian friends would help. It became apparent that many of them thought i deserved this somehow. But i was living a very righteous life, except for the fear/panic/anxiety trouble. I was finally found by a catholic charity housing facility which took us in. This place proved to be our salvation. After a few months, I found a nanny/housekeeping position. My mom had some of my things in her storage and said she would sell them if i didn't take them. There were a few boxes of my things. My employers allowed me to keep these in their garage..When i saw the bible I remembered what was revealed to me at 16. (I had my son at 22). I opened the bible and there, was my son's birthdate. I remembered what was said to me then by God and chills went down my spine. At 16, I was also told about why i would only ever have one..... cancer. I asked God then if i was going to die from it. He said yes, eventually. Then I asked what will happen to my son? God promised me He would personally take care of Him. Back then I was fine with that, but now, I want to personally take care of him too. I could not enjoy heaven without him and I will not go. I told God that, so if He doesn't heal me I will stay on earth with my son as a ghost you might say, until he grows up. If I have any power to do that at all, that is what I will do because I must. That is how strong my mother instincts are and how strong my love for my son is. I'm sure God knows that.My dad is divorced again and is back in my life since the cancer. I forgive my parents and everyone that abused me or cast me aside, because if they didn't I would not have my son and I would not have witnessed this revelation and completion of this revelation. This is also the one thing that proves to me that God and the spirit world exists. Well, there it is... I promise, nothing so weird has happened to me, except for things that could be passed off as feelings or coincidences.

[Shyone]

It sounds crazy and complicated, but aside from Creation itself, there is only one thing that stands in the way of me and being a total atheist. And this is it:

 

when I was just a young girl, about to turn 16, (I had not dated yet and did not plan to until I was in bible college... which never happened)... God, "told" me in detail about my child. I had asked for a bible from my parents as a birthday gift-- they finally got me one a month and day after my birthday and dated the bible for that day. Through this, God spoke to me and told me all about my child. That he would be a boy, my only, why he would be my only, his birthdate, many things. I tried to forget the power of that revelation, but could never quite forget him. My parents suddenly divorced when i was 18 and I began having panic/anxiety troubles. They got new partners and discarded me like a mistake they made long ago. In short, I was not welcomed and instead became homeless. I was attacked and raped-- this is how my son came to be. Alot of terrible things continued to happen to me. None of my christian friends would help. It became apparent that many of them thought i deserved this somehow. But i was living a very righteous life, except for the fear/panic/anxiety trouble. I was finally found by a catholic charity housing facility which took us in. This place proved to be our salvation. After a few months, I found a nanny/housekeeping position. My mom had some of my things in her storage and said she would sell them if i didn't take them. There were a few boxes of my things. My employers allowed me to keep these in their garage..When i saw the bible I remembered what was revealed to me at 16. (I had my son at 22). I opened the bible and there, was my son's birthdate. I remembered what was said to me then by God and chills went down my spine. At 16, I was also told about why i would only ever have one..... cancer. I asked God then if i was going to die from it. He said yes, eventually. Then I asked what will happen to my son? God promised me He would personally take care of Him. Back then I was fine with that, but now, I want to personally take care of him too. I could not enjoy heaven without him and I will not go. I told God that, so if He doesn't heal me I will stay on earth with my son as a ghost you might say, until he grows up. If I have any power to do that at all, that is what I will do because I must. That is how strong my mother instincts are and how strong my love for my son is. I'm sure God knows that.My dad is divorced again and is back in my life since the cancer. I forgive my parents and everyone that abused me or cast me aside, because if they didn't I would not have my son and I would not have witnessed this revelation and completion of this revelation. This is also the one thing that proves to me that God and the spirit world exists. Well, there it is... I promise, nothing so weird has happened to me, except for things that could be passed off as feelings or coincidences.

I would not minimise your feelings. There is much to be said for love and the desire to care for others.

 

I have heard it said that Love is the most powerful force in the universe. I think Nuclear Fusion is, but I could be wrong. However you can, work for as long as you can to accomplish your goals and care for those you love. In many ways, with some work, you can in fact continue to be a part of their lives even if you are no longer.

 

I think you were right to personally want to do what God had promised you. If you want something done right, do it yourself.

[Shyone]

That Grand Unified System of Thought does exist. The data that doesn't fit is the key to understanding. Omniscience isn't possible, and it shouldn't be the goal, but from where I sit everything fits perfectly. Absolutely perfectly. Not a problem with evil, no problems with textual criticism, no problems with the impossible, the fantastical, or the contradictory.

 

Everything makes perfect sense. My cognitive dissonance disappeared as the fog vanished.

 

My seeking always leads to more questions. I am in constant revision. I am glad for you, Shyone.

 

Phanta

Rereading what I wrote, it would appear that I am confident that I have all of the answers, but this is not what I meant.

 

I have questions about a lot of things, but those questions keep me interested, not in a state of angst. I have tragedies, but I am much more accepting than I might be with a different worldview.

 

The one thing missing in my life that I don't miss is the Cognitive Dissonance. That is what I meant to write.

[Laura76]

That's quite a story. Are you currently battling the cancer? How old is your son? How is he handling it?

 

Phanta

 

Yes it is... quite a story. I wish it had not happened to me because I could leave this evil Christianity behind and not have to believe there is a God.

 

Yes, I am currently battling the cancer. It is stage 5 now and considered terminal. My son is 11. He is used to me having cancer. I've had it for almost 6 years now, so I have well prepared him for a long time. I ask him how he feels about things all the time, to make sure he doesn't hold the feelings in too much.

 

It is a good thing my dad is out of his last marrige now, it was shortly after he got out of the marriage that he let me back into his life again. I could not keep a roof over our heads without him. I sometimes worry that he will find another relationship and shut me (and now my son) out of his life again, but he says he is "done with wenches" in his words...lol.

[Laura76]

It sounds crazy and complicated, but aside from Creation itself, there is only one thing that stands in the way of me and being a total atheist. And this is it:

 

when I was just a young girl, about to turn 16, (I had not dated yet and did not plan to until I was in bible college... which never happened)... God, "told" me in detail about my child. I had asked for a bible from my parents as a birthday gift-- they finally got me one a month and day after my birthday and dated the bible for that day. Through this, God spoke to me and told me all about my child. That he would be a boy, my only, why he would be my only, his birthdate, many things. I tried to forget the power of that revelation, but could never quite forget him. My parents suddenly divorced when i was 18 and I began having panic/anxiety troubles. They got new partners and discarded me like a mistake they made long ago. In short, I was not welcomed and instead became homeless. I was attacked and raped-- this is how my son came to be. Alot of terrible things continued to happen to me. None of my christian friends would help. It became apparent that many of them thought i deserved this somehow. But i was living a very righteous life, except for the fear/panic/anxiety trouble. I was finally found by a catholic charity housing facility which took us in. This place proved to be our salvation. After a few months, I found a nanny/housekeeping position. My mom had some of my things in her storage and said she would sell them if i didn't take them. There were a few boxes of my things. My employers allowed me to keep these in their garage..When i saw the bible I remembered what was revealed to me at 16. (I had my son at 22). I opened the bible and there, was my son's birthdate. I remembered what was said to me then by God and chills went down my spine. At 16, I was also told about why i would only ever have one..... cancer. I asked God then if i was going to die from it. He said yes, eventually. Then I asked what will happen to my son? God promised me He would personally take care of Him. Back then I was fine with that, but now, I want to personally take care of him too. I could not enjoy heaven without him and I will not go. I told God that, so if He doesn't heal me I will stay on earth with my son as a ghost you might say, until he grows up. If I have any power to do that at all, that is what I will do because I must. That is how strong my mother instincts are and how strong my love for my son is. I'm sure God knows that.My dad is divorced again and is back in my life since the cancer. I forgive my parents and everyone that abused me or cast me aside, because if they didn't I would not have my son and I would not have witnessed this revelation and completion of this revelation. This is also the one thing that proves to me that God and the spirit world exists. Well, there it is... I promise, nothing so weird has happened to me, except for things that could be passed off as feelings or coincidences.

I would not minimise your feelings. There is much to be said for love and the desire to care for others.

 

I have heard it said that Love is the most powerful force in the universe. I think Nuclear Fusion is, but I could be wrong. However you can, work for as long as you can to accomplish your goals and care for those you love. In many ways, with some work, you can in fact continue to be a part of their lives even if you are no longer.

 

I think you were right to personally want to do what God had promised you. If you want something done right, do it yourself.

 

Yes. Thank you for your understanding and message.

[Laura76]

It sounds crazy and complicated, but aside from Creation itself, there is only one thing that stands in the way of me and being a total atheist. And this is it:

 

when I was just a young girl, about to turn 16, (I had not dated yet and did not plan to until I was in bible college... which never happened)... God, "told" me in detail about my child. I had asked for a bible from my parents as a birthday gift-- they finally got me one a month and day after my birthday and dated the bible for that day. Through this, God spoke to me and told me all about my child. That he would be a boy, my only, why he would be my only, his birthdate, many things. I tried to forget the power of that revelation, but could never quite forget him. My parents suddenly divorced when i was 18 and I began having panic/anxiety troubles. They got new partners and discarded me like a mistake they made long ago. In short, I was not welcomed and instead became homeless. I was attacked and raped-- this is how my son came to be. Alot of terrible things continued to happen to me. None of my christian friends would help. It became apparent that many of them thought i deserved this somehow. But i was living a very righteous life, except for the fear/panic/anxiety trouble. I was finally found by a catholic charity housing facility which took us in. This place proved to be our salvation. After a few months, I found a nanny/housekeeping position. My mom had some of my things in her storage and said she would sell them if i didn't take them. There were a few boxes of my things. My employers allowed me to keep these in their garage..When i saw the bible I remembered what was revealed to me at 16. (I had my son at 22). I opened the bible and there, was my son's birthdate. I remembered what was said to me then by God and chills went down my spine. At 16, I was also told about why i would only ever have one..... cancer. I asked God then if i was going to die from it. He said yes, eventually. Then I asked what will happen to my son? God promised me He would personally take care of Him. Back then I was fine with that, but now, I want to personally take care of him too. I could not enjoy heaven without him and I will not go. I told God that, so if He doesn't heal me I will stay on earth with my son as a ghost you might say, until he grows up. If I have any power to do that at all, that is what I will do because I must. That is how strong my mother instincts are and how strong my love for my son is. I'm sure God knows that.My dad is divorced again and is back in my life since the cancer. I forgive my parents and everyone that abused me or cast me aside, because if they didn't I would not have my son and I would not have witnessed this revelation and completion of this revelation. This is also the one thing that proves to me that God and the spirit world exists. Well, there it is... I promise, nothing so weird has happened to me, except for things that could be passed off as feelings or coincidences.

 

That's quite a story. Are you currently battling the cancer? How old is your son? How is he handling it?

 

Phanta

 

Also, I should add to my last comment to you that the cancer I have is rare and is a cancer that mostly older black males get, interestingly enough, as i am a young, white female. I have been on 5 chemotherapies so far one of them almost killed me, which is why i am scared to death when i have to begin a new chemotherapy. I have recently become thin and frail. My doctor says I may have 2 years left at best, but I don't know. Stranger things than healings have occurred, although I know I will not get my intestines back the way they were before the cancer and the surgery. Amputations don't seem to heal well... but the liver regenerates itself, which is where the cancer spread to and what the concern is, because I only have about 45% of my actual liver remaining. The rest is tumor. I don't know all of the mysteries of the body, but thank you for your post and your concern. Wish me well, that I may be well... thank you.

[Shyone]

Wish me well, that I may be well... thank you.

You've got it. I only wish I could do more.

[Evolution_beyond]

We don't come from apes. We share a common ancestor with the apes, the most recent of which lived about 18 million years ago. The creationist literature you've been reading does not describe the actual theories surrounding the fact of evolution. If you read some scientific literature on the subject instead of the looney mischaracterizations of it that creationists come up with, your own common sense might help everything fall into place.

 

 

I hate to disagree with you and everything, when we're on the same side so to speak, but we probably did evolve from some kind of ape. We didn't evolve from Chimpanzees or Gorillas or Orang-Utans, that is true. We share common ancestors with Chimps - and that common ancestor shares a common ancestor with the Gorillas and so on. But, partly because we are technically a type of ape anyway, and partly because even if you treat humans as separate to the other apes it was still something more ape-like than human-like that is the common ancestor between the chimps and us - I think it is safe to say that we evolved from apes.

 

What you said is like saying that we didn't evolve from mammals but from a common ancestor we and the mammals share. Species branch off from common roots and so we didn't evolve from any species alive today - but you can indeed say that we evolved from groups of species.

 

We evolved from apes, and apes evolved from some earlier form of primate, which evolved from some early form of mammal, which evolved from mammal-like reptiles, which evolved from early reptiles etc - until we get all the way back to worms, single celled animals and photosynthesising bacteria.

[Shyone]

We don't come from apes. We share a common ancestor with the apes, the most recent of which lived about 18 million years ago. The creationist literature you've been reading does not describe the actual theories surrounding the fact of evolution. If you read some scientific literature on the subject instead of the looney mischaracterizations of it that creationists come up with, your own common sense might help everything fall into place.

 

 

I hate to disagree with you and everything, when we're on the same side so to speak, but we probably did evolve from some kind of ape. We didn't evolve from Chimpanzees or Gorillas or Orang-Utans, that is true. We share common ancestors with Chimps - and that common ancestor shares a common ancestor with the Gorillas and so on. But, partly because we are technically a type of ape anyway, and partly because even if you treat humans as separate to the other apes it was still something more ape-like than human-like that is the common ancestor between the chimps and us - I think it is safe to say that we evolved from apes.

 

What you said is like saying that we didn't evolve from mammals but from a common ancestor we and the mammals share. Species branch off from common roots and so we didn't evolve from any species alive today - but you can indeed say that we evolved from groups of species.

 

We evolved from apes, and apes evolved from some earlier form of primate, which evolved from some early form of mammal, which evolved from mammal-like reptiles, which evolved from early reptiles etc - until we get all the way back to worms, single celled animals and photosynthesising bacteria.

Picky, picky, picky.

 

An ape is any member of the Hominoidea superfamily of primates, and includes humans. Due to its ambiguous nature, the term ape is less suitable as a means of describing taxonomic relationships.

 

Under the current classification system there are two families of hominoids:

 

the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 14 species of gibbon, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively known as the lesser apes.

the family Hominidae consisting of chimpanzees, gorillas, humans and orangutans[1][2] collectively known as the great apes.

 

We share a common ancestor with the snail.

 

I won't go back further than that. It's against my religion.

[Laura76]

Wish me well, that I may be well... thank you.

 

You will be in my thoughts.

 

On a personal note, my stepfather died of cancer very quickly (within a handful of months) when I was a teen. I was rarely asked how I was feeling and for various reasons it was demanded of me not to talk to anyone about it for quite some time. I'm so glad to hear that you have encouraged your son to openly process his feelings. I do hope you continue to have support in your life. Please let me know if you ever need a listening ear.

 

Warm regards,

Phanta

 

Thank you Phanta. I'm sorry you were not given permission to grieve. That is very important. I hope I continue to have support too and as for my dad, I have instructed him to help my son grieve if it comes my time to go soon, by being open to his feelings and to talk about them and he has agreed so I am happy and comforted with that.

[Kid]

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

 

Reason or gut -- I'm not exactly sure which to attribute it to -- and experience.

 

1) We appear to be the only creatures on this planet that have the ability to experience life with intellect and emotion, the only ones able to create, and I can't help but think we are patterned after SomeOne.

 

2) We seem to be programmed to seek for truth and it seems to me that the human race at it's finest agrees that sacrificial love is the purest truth. My reason says there must be an ultimate Source of this love/truth. But it also seems to me (through experience) that my/our view of truth is distorted, out of focus, incomplete. I'm looking for something that will bring it into focus and into completion and, for me, it seems that Jesus Christ, as I [very imperfectly] understand Him is capable and willing to do so. In my understanding He has, in His very being, merged Truth/Love/Divinity with humanity, and if I am not mistaken, the Bible reveals a purpose and plan of bringing all of us into that Truth, to experience it and live it to it's fullest capacity.

 

I find that, for me, that sense of purpose and destiny is necessary.

[Shyone]

 

Reason or gut -- I'm not exactly sure which to attribute it to -- and experience.

 

1) We appear to be the only creatures on this planet that have the ability to experience life with intellect and emotion, the only ones able to create, and I can't help but think we are patterned after SomeOne.

 

I think that we are patterned after Homo Erectus, which was patterned after the species preceding that, back to the small dinosaurs, and before that aquatic species and before that single celled species. We are unique - just like every other species. We have a unique adaptation to survival, but not the strongest arms, best eye sight, or sharpest claws or teeth.

 

2) We seem to be programmed to seek for truth and it seems to me that the human race at it's finest agrees that sacrificial love is the purest truth. My reason says there must be an ultimate Source of this love/truth. But it also seems to me (through experience) that my/our view of truth is distorted, out of focus, incomplete. I'm looking for something that will bring it into focus and into completion and, for me, it seems that Jesus Christ, as I [very imperfectly] understand Him is capable and willing to do so. In my understanding He has, in His very being, merged Truth/Love/Divinity with humanity, and if I am not mistaken, the Bible reveals a purpose and plan of bringing all of us into that Truth, to experience it and live it to it's fullest capacity.

 

Do you feel that the Muslims have the same understanding as you? Hindus? Does your gut come from a Christian country? Does the Koran reveal a purpose and plan of bringing all of us into that truth, to experience it a live it to its fullest capacity? Does your belief in sacrificial love involve human sacrifice? Animals? How pure does a goat have to be before it is an acceptable sacrifice to the Lord?

 

I find that, for me, that sense of purpose and destiny is necessary.

 

I have a sense of purpose and destiny that I call humanism. I am devoted to my family, the truth, and helping others with difficult times in their lives with science, as imperfect as it may be.

 

My gut, and my reason, tell me that there are no gods, there is no paradise/nirvana/heaven, and any love we have is between humans, for humans. My reason tells me the Bible was written thousands of years ago and contains horrors, mistakes and lies. Any distortion that you perceive is in placing faith in The Odyssey of Jesus and the Argonauts Apostles.

[Kid]

Hi Shyone. Thanks for the response and the questions.

 

 

I think that we are patterned after Homo Erectus, which was patterned after the species preceding that, back to the small dinosaurs, and before that aquatic species and before that single celled species. We are unique - just like every other species. We have a unique adaptation to survival, but not the strongest arms, best eye sight, or sharpest claws or teeth.

 

Our ability to reason and experience complex emotion seems to me to endow us with something out of the ordinary in our world.

 

Do you feel that the Muslims have the same understanding as you? Hindus? Does your gut come from a Christian country? Does the Koran reveal a purpose and plan of bringing all of us into that truth, to experience it a live it to its fullest capacity? Does your belief in sacrificial love involve human sacrifice? Animals? How pure does a goat have to be before it is an acceptable sacrifice to the Lord?

 

I have not studied other religions to any great extent so can't have any truly informed opinions about the beliefs of those who subscribe to them. Yes, my gut feelings are coming from a predominantly Christian country and culture.

 

Sacrifices to appease a god are not the same thing as sacrifical love, of course. I was speaking of the ability we have to consciously put another person's welfare above our own.

 

I have a sense of purpose and destiny that I call humanism. I am devoted to my family, the truth, and helping others with difficult times in their lives with science, as imperfect as it may be.

 

I appreciate those things and share them. Well, I'm not very scientifically minded, so I don't share that with you, but I definitely appreciate those who are gifted and educated in that area.

 

My gut, and my reason, tell me that there are no gods, there is no paradise/nirvana/heaven, and any love we have is between humans, for humans. My reason tells me the Bible was written thousands of years ago and contains horrors, mistakes and lies.

 

Okay.

 

Any distortion that you perceive is in placing faith in The Odyssey of Jesus and the Argonauts Apostles.

 

I do think that, in the past, there has been much distortion in the way I have perceived Jesus which has definitely distorted my perception of life and love and truth. And, undoubtedly, there still is.

[chefranden]

Our ability to reason and experience complex emotion seems to me to endow us with something out of the ordinary in our world.

 

Our ability to reason is not so great as we like to think it is. One of the major things that ability has supplied is the ability to kill one another more effectively, or at least more expensively.

 

Our reason is a poor thing to base a God on.

 

1. I have not studied other religions to any great extent so can't have any truly informed opinions about the beliefs of those who subscribe to them. Yes, my gut feelings are coming from a predominantly Christian country and culture.

 

2. Sacrifices to appease a god are not the same thing as sacrifical love, of course. I was speaking of the ability we have to consciously put another person's welfare above our own.

 

1. After touting reason above as out of the ordinary, one would think that you might apply it to your choice of religion. That would require study and participation* in other religions to see what they are about.

 

2. What? How do you know that? What scientific studies have you done to show this is true, or even real? There are religions that don't require any sacrifice for god appeasement. Perhaps these are superior one that requires any sacrifice.

 

*Since spiritual things are understood by faith, participation would require that you believe at least for a time in these other religions, or you won't be able to evaluate them properly.

[Kid]

Our ability to reason is not so great as we like to think it is. One of the major things that ability has supplied is the ability to kill one another more effectively, or at least more expensively.

 

Our reason is a poor thing to base a God on.

 

Regardless of how it is used, it is unique to us. And to say that because something is sometimes used for ignoble purposes does not make the thing itself ignoble.

 

1. After touting reason above as out of the ordinary, one would think that you might apply it to your choice of religion. That would require study and participation* in other religions to see what they are about.

 

To me, that's similar to saying that alhtough I'm happily married I should really participate in other relationships to make sure this husband is the right one.

 

I've wrestled with my faith, and continue to do so, more than enough to know the weaknesses and the strengths of what I believe. I have a general knowledge of other religions which, if I had felt compelled to study further, I would have. As I've said, I am from a Christian country and was raised in a Christian culture. I didn't choose this. If God exists and wants to reveal Himself to me on any level, I figure He's quite capable of doing so within the parameters in which I find myself. So far, I've been compelled to seek for truth within my own religious beliefs and my view of things has changed tremendously over the years which has, in turn, changed me. If God wants to send me in a new direction, reveal other things to me, then my experience tells me that I can trust Him to give me a nudge in the right direction.

 

As I've said, I'm not very scientifically-minded but I understand that science is not static ... the field of knowledge grows and therefore changes how one views the world around them. I'd say that in some ways, individual faith follows a parallel trajectory.

 

 

2. What? How do you know that? What scientific studies have you done to show this is true, or even real? There are religions that don't require any sacrifice for god appeasement. Perhaps these are superior one that requires any sacrifice.

 

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making or what you are asking of me here. Here's what I had said:

We seem to be programmed to seek for truth and it seems to me that the human race at it's finest agrees that sacrificial love is the purest truth. My reason says there must be an ultimate Source of this love/truth. But it also seems to me (through experience) that my/our view of truth is distorted, out of focus, incomplete. I'm looking for something that will bring it into focus and into completion and, for me, it seems that Jesus Christ, as I [very imperfectly] understand Him is capable and willing to do so. In my understanding He has, in His very being, merged Truth/Love/Divinity with humanity, and if I am not mistaken, the Bible reveals a purpose and plan of bringing all of us into that Truth, to experience it and live it to it's fullest capacity.

 

Perhaps you could let me know what, particularly, you take issue with in what I've said.

 

And, just for the record, I didn't come here to argue any point or change anyone's mind. I came to read. I'm a chronic questioner and I can relate to much of what's written by people on this site. I only registered because of this thread. It's a good question and I appreciate the opportunity to explore it for myself ... and the feedback from others is a nice bonus.

[Ouroboros]

Our ability to reason is not so great as we like to think it is. One of the major things that ability has supplied is the ability to kill one another more effectively, or at least more expensively.

 

Our reason is a poor thing to base a God on.

 

Regardless of how it is used, it is unique to us. And to say that because something is sometimes used for ignoble purposes does not make the thing itself ignoble.

If our ability to reason is God given, then why is it mostly shunned by religious people? Reason, logic, and research leads to certain answers of reality, yet many religious leaders rather use rhetoric and polemic to control the masses. It just doesn't make sense to me to argue God's existence by claiming that we have something unique and then declare it a useless feature of our mind.

[chefranden]

 

Regardless of how it is used, it is unique to us. And to say that because something is sometimes used for ignoble purposes does not make the thing itself ignoble.

 

To me, that's similar to saying that alhtough I'm happily married I should really participate in other relationships to make sure this husband is the right one.

 

Hey, you brought up reason as a reason to believe. I'm just pointing out that you are not using reason to that effect. I'm betting that reason had little to do with the choice of your significant other, as it has little to do with your being Christian.

 

I've wrestled with my faith, and continue to do so, more than enough to know the weaknesses and the strengths of what I believe. I have a general knowledge of other religions which, if I had felt compelled to study further, I would have. As I've said, I am from a Christian country and was raised in a Christian culture. I didn't choose this. If God exists and wants to reveal Himself to me on any level, I figure He's quite capable of doing so within the parameters in which I find myself. So far, I've been compelled to seek for truth within my own religious beliefs and my view of things has changed tremendously over the years which has, in turn, changed me. If God wants to send me in a new direction, reveal other things to me, then my experience tells me that I can trust Him to give me a nudge in the right direction.

 

As I said reason is not your reason.

 

By the way if God were real it would seem that he could do other than give you some nondescript easily misinterpreted nudge in some direction. Isn't it written that God gave Noah exact directions for his task? So why doesn't God give you exact instructions?

 

As I've said, I'm not very scientifically-minded but I understand that science is not static ... the field of knowledge grows and therefore changes how one views the world around them. I'd say that in some ways, individual faith follows a parallel trajectory.

 

Science is not static, but where ever it comes in conflict with God, God looses.

 

 

2. What? How do you know that? What scientific studies have you done to show this is true, or even real? There are religions that don't require any sacrifice for god appeasement. Perhaps these are superior one that requires any sacrifice.

 

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making or what you are asking of me here. Here's what I had said: We seem to be programmed to seek for truth and it seems to me that the human race at it's finest agrees that sacrificial love is the purest truth. My reason says there must be an ultimate Source of this love/truth. But it also seems to me (through experience) that my/our view of truth is distorted, out of focus, incomplete. I'm looking for something that will bring it into focus and into completion and, for me, it seems that Jesus Christ, as I [very imperfectly] understand Him is capable and willing to do so. In my understanding He has, in His very being, merged Truth/Love/Divinity with humanity, and if I am not mistaken, the Bible reveals a purpose and plan of bringing all of us into that Truth, to experience it and live it to it's fullest capacity.

 

How is sacrificial love the purest truth? It might be what you like best, but liking is not the best way to determine what is true. You can't just take the propaganda you grew up with as the "purest truth" if you want to use reason at all. To a Buddhist the Eight Fold Path might be the purest truth. Which one of you is right?

If you are liberal Christian, this question may not bother you.

 

All you have really said here is. I'm a Christian because I'm a Christian.

 

 

Perhaps you could let me know what, particularly, you take issue with in what I've said.

 

I've already done this.

 

And, just for the record, I didn't come here to argue any point or change anyone's mind. I came to read. I'm a chronic questioner and I can relate to much of what's written by people on this site. I only registered because of this thread. It's a good question and I appreciate the opportunity to explore it for myself ... and the feedback from others is a nice bonus.

 

You might want to read what the lion's den is for then. Expect to defend what you post here.

[Kid]

If our ability to reason is God given, then why is it mostly shunned by religious people? Reason, logic, and research leads to certain answers of reality, yet many religious leaders rather use rhetoric and polemic to control the masses.

 

Didn't you just answer your own question?

 

It just doesn't make sense to me to argue God's existence by claiming that we have something unique and then declare it a useless feature of our mind.

 

I assume this is directed at the formerly mentioned "religious leaders" and not myself, since I haven't done that.

[Kid]

Hey, you brought up reason as a reason to believe. I'm just pointing out that you are not using reason to that effect. I'm betting that reason had little to do with the choice of your significant other, as it has little to do with your being Christian.

 

Just because I don't reason in a way that you relate to or appreciate or find logical or whatever, doesn't mean that reason has not played a part in my faith. The fact that I've reasoned that our ability to reason is a reason to believe proves that.

 

As I said reason is not your reason.

 

By the way if God were real it would seem that he could do other than give you some nondescript easily misinterpreted nudge in some direction. Isn't it written that God gave Noah exact directions for his task? So why doesn't God give you exact instructions?

 

So, you pick out one aspect of one story and apply that across the board to dictate how God, if He exists, must interact at all times, in all places, with all people?

 

Science is not static, but where ever it comes in conflict with God, God looses.

 

Your concept of God loses, maybe. Or mine. But then that goes to what I said ... faith is not static any more than science is.

 

 

How is sacrificial love the purest truth? It might be what you like best, but liking is not the best way to determine what is true. You can't just take the propaganda you grew up with as the "purest truth" if you want to use reason at all. To a Buddhist the Eight Fold Path might be the purest truth. Which one of you is right?

If you are liberal Christian, this question may not bother you.

 

I am a recovering fundamental Christian. So, it may bother me, but I'm learning not to let it.

 

All you have really said here is. I'm a Christian because I'm a Christian.

 

No, that's not all I've said. But if that's all you heard, okay.

 

You might want to read what the lion's den is for then. Expect to defend what you post here.

 

My understanding was that the Colliseum or Arena were more specifically for debate but that's fine, I'll do my best to reply to honest issues anyone may have with what I post. All I'm saying is that I'm not interested in debate for the sake of argument or proving a point to you or anyone else. I can enjoy the process of debate for the sake of learning but I have no need to force anyone to see things from my pov.

[chefranden]

By the way if God were real it would seem that he could do other than give you some nondescript easily misinterpreted nudge in some direction. Isn't it written that God gave Noah exact directions for his task? So why doesn't God give you exact instructions?

 

So, you pick out one aspect of one story and apply that across the board to dictate how God, if He exists, must interact at all times, in all places, with all people?

 

Isn't it written that God is no respecter of persons? Seems unjust for God to give explicit directions to one and make another just guess at what pleases him.

 

Your concept of God loses, maybe. Or mine. But then that goes to what I said ... faith is not static any more than science is.

 

So then you would say that St. Jude was wrong when he wrote that the faith was delivered to the Saints once and for all?