Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Antlerman]

I don't discount my spiritual experiences. I however don't use them as evidence of anything. They are open to interpretation, rather than force fit into some set of theological traditions.

 

So question for you? What causes you to interpret them one way?

 

Every time I have an awsome spiritual experience it has been doing certain things or in a certain setting. These things or settings were connected to a set of theological traditions.

 

When you say "a set of theological traditions", do you mean in a religious worship-type context; during a time of religious/spiritual reflection?

 

All of the life after death stories of people who died and came back.

Name one.

 

You mean Near-Death Experiences? I've had one. Quite profound actually, but this doesn't validate a reality of conscious existence beyond death's door. I'd say my experience qualifies me as a first hand witness.

 

Can you share your near death experience?

Sure. I link to it inside this post here: link, and the following discussion in the linked thread goes into a bit of depth of my thoughts/impressions about it.

[Neon Genesis]

I saw a bunch of things at healing services. When I first became a Christian in 6th grade my angry ways disappeared without any body telling me they should. I was around a group of people who were talking about this blind person they knew regained his sight at the church. Messed up people change their ways when God comes into their life.

If God is really performing miracles, why doesn't God heal amputees?

[Antlerman]

I saw a bunch of things at healing services. When I first became a Christian in 6th grade my angry ways disappeared without any body telling me they should. I was around a group of people who were talking about this blind person they knew regained his sight at the church. Messed up people change their ways when God comes into their life.

If God is really performing miracles, why doesn't God heal amputees?

He does. He just makes their limbs invisible to prove the unbelief of those he chose before the foundation of the world to receive his wrath in hell. If you truly believed, you'd see the new arm. But since you don't... well hard to argue with the doctrine of predestination. Accept salvation. Just confess you see the arm. See and believe and be saved! Yes Jesus! I see the arm. I believe!

[Kuroikaze]

I think you are missing my point, which is, as a Christian I realized that people from religions other than my own were claiming to have the same experiences I was having. I thought about it logically and these were the only options I could come up with. If you have a fourth by all means, present it.

 

 

. I asked if people who used to experience the spiritual things that I was talking about decided to leave. If you experienced them, you would know people are not lying.

 

You miss the point, which is that people in other religions were claiming the same supernatural experiences. It IS a feasible position that these other people were not having them and are instead lying (I can't read their minds), but as a pointed out I DISMISSED this position because it didn't seem tenable.

 

On another note, this statement makes no sense. Just because I have had an experience, doesn't mean that anyone else I hear claiming to have the same experience is being honest. I would be willing to bet that you are well aware that at least SOME of the TV evangelists who claim all sorts of spiritual experiences are being less than honest. However, from an objective point of view, their claims, my past claims and your claims are not distinguishable. Because they occur entirely in the realm of the mind there is no physical evidence on which to base such a distinction.

 

 

2. Because people from other religions experience spiritual things, you would want to discount your own and no longer experience the presence of God.

 

Is this a question or a statement? I'm not totally sure I know what you are getting at here. You were asking us why we discounted our own experiences and I was giving you a run down of the logic that led me to such a position.

 

I was not claiming this as proof that their is no god, but as proof that personal spiritual experiences are not valid to answer the question his existence. I did not become an athiest the moment I reasoned this out, that happened several years later, in fact it was probably a over a year after this that I even left Christianity. I hope you can understand the distinction I am making here.

 

The point here is that, these other people experience things and say that their god is responsible (and very different god than the one I believed in).

 

3. There probably is some chemical things going on. That does not mean there is not something else going on. Does adrenalin cause stress or does stress cause adrenalin?

 

Ok, the point of thought was not to pontificate on theories about mind spirit duality, but to create a logical syllogism to deduce if it was reasonable to use my personal experiences to justify the existence of the particular god that I believed in.

 

If I used my own experiences as justification for my beliefs but dismissed others experiences as valid justifications for theirs then I would be a hypocrite, and I could not knowingly act in such a way, my since of ethics would not allow me to. So I concluded that while my experiences might be real, they could not be used as evidence to prove that reality in any rational sense. Does this make sense to you?

 

You asked a question, I have given and answer, if you want clarification on any point I'd be happy to provide it.

If you want to pick apart my logic then go too it, I don't bruise easily, but just realize that I'm not totally unskilled in the arena of reason.

 

Edit: Sorry if my post is a bit long...I wasn't intending to write quite so much.

[Kuroikaze]

I'm not telling you what to believe, but please don't use the words "reason" and "pascal's wager" as if they belong together.

 

Pascal's wager is to reason as Ebola is to health and wellness.

 

I am not saying that it is a good reason for believing. I was saying that, personally, if I had a cool head, I could not make the rational leap to non belief. This is because pascal's wager. Maybe intead of reason it should go under fear.

 

Well that's a refreshingly honest answer.

[Badger]

"Why Do You Remain A Christian?"

 

I must apologize in advance that English isn't my first language and I may not be able to express my thoughts as well as I want. The question however is very good and I wanna try to say something.

 

It's the question I'm asking myself almost every day. Why do I reamain a Christian? Why do I believe in God? To be honest, I have had doubts last three years. Doubts and questions about God and Christianity (as well as atheism). One of the fundamental problems I have is that the concept of Christian God doesn't seem to fit in the reality I'm living. He doesn't answer to me; I pray, sincerely, but I'm left alone. At least that's how I feel. So I'm wondering does he care? Does he really love? In fact, at first glance, it seems that if there is God he does not care. If I could see in the future, to the end of my life, and observe that there is nothing I could interpret as God's intervention (answers, miracles etc.) it would be much much easier to conclude there is nothing. But of course I can't do that. So there is a process going on in my life at the moment, and right now I can only believe. Faith, as I understand it, doesn't mean 100% certainty about God's existence but rather trust and reliance. Is it impossible that there could be other reason(s) for this silence, other than that Christian God doesn't exist? Not necessarily, but right now I just don't understand this. There is one good thing however. My belief or faith in God doesn't force me to be anything I'm. I can be myself. I'm allowed to doubt, question, reason, and even fail. Moreover, the idea of God's grace have positive effect on my life; even if it's not true. To reject this faith wouldn't chance much if anything. I doubt it would end my questions and search.

 

In spite of what some people claim, I don't believe that we are atheist, or Christians, simply as a result of logical and critical thinking. I would say there is much more involved in these things. I'm just trying to be patient, and not to rush anywhere, but at the same time I wanna be honest to myself. That's it. I hope you like my story.

[Ouroboros]

Badger,

 

I think that was very honest answer. I think belief is strongly rooted in emotions, and is not necessarily based on facts or evidence. Some people believe because they had some extraordinary experiences which they can't explain in any other framework than their religion, and some believe because it feels right. And I can readily admit that I lost my faith to a larger part because the feelings were not there anymore, and it left me with trying to fit God and belief in what is factual or evidential, and since that was lacking I had no more to hold on to. So if God does exist, and God so wants, he doesn't need to do much to change me, only some unexplained miracles would probably make me think there is something more out there than I know about, but so far... nothing.

[Badger]

And I can readily admit that I lost my faith to a larger part because the feelings were not there anymore, and it left me with trying to fit God and belief in what is factual or evidential, and since that was lacking I had no more to hold on to. So if God does exist, and God so wants, he doesn't need to do much to change me, only some unexplained miracles would probably make me think there is something more out there than I know about, but so far... nothing.

It seems that God is not interested to do that, at least for most of us.

 

Jesus' resurrection is still important to me, and as you probably know already I don't believe (accept) it simply because the Bible says it happened.

[Kathlene]

"Why Do You Remain A Christian?"

 

I must apologize in advance that English isn't my first language and I may not be able to express my thoughts as well as I want. The question however is very good and I wanna try to say something.

 

It's the question I'm asking myself almost every day. Why do I reamain a Christian? Why do I believe in God? To be honest, I have had doubts last three years. Doubts and questions about God and Christianity (as well as atheism). One of the fundamental problems I have is that the concept of Christian God doesn't seem to fit in the reality I'm living. He doesn't answer to me; I pray, sincerely, but I'm left alone. At least that's how I feel. So I'm wondering does he care? Does he really love? In fact, at first glance, it seems that if there is God he does not care. If I could see in the future, to the end of my life, and observe that there is nothing I could interpret as God's intervention (answers, miracles etc.) it would be much much easier to conclude there is nothing. But of course I can't do that. So there is a process going on in my life at the moment, and right now I can only believe. Faith, as I understand it, doesn't mean 100% certainty about God's existence but rather trust and reliance. Is it impossible that there could be other reason(s) for this silence, other than that Christian God doesn't exist? Not necessarily, but right now I just don't understand this. There is one good thing however. My belief or faith in God doesn't force me to be anything I'm. I can be myself. I'm allowed to doubt, question, reason, and even fail. Moreover, the idea of God's grace have positive effect on my life; even if it's not true. To reject this faith wouldn't chance much if anything. I doubt it would end my questions and search.

 

In spite of what some people claim, I don't believe that we are atheist, or Christians, simply as a result of logical and critical thinking. I would say there is much more involved in these things. I'm just trying to be patient, and not to rush anywhere, but at the same time I wanna be honest to myself. That's it. I hope you like my story.

 

Badger, thankyou for this post. It was very real and honest and I appreciate it. It's nice to hear from a xtian for once that isn't espousing all these superflous reasons to be a christian. You have gained far more respect from me by bearing your heart and honest reflections. Thanks.

[Badger]

Thank you both.

 

I know people here have certain stereotypes about us (Christians), and it's understood, but I hope you would first get to know me before making judgements. That's my simply request.

[Vigile]

And I can readily admit that I lost my faith to a larger part because the feelings were not there anymore, and it left me with trying to fit God and belief in what is factual or evidential, and since that was lacking I had no more to hold on to. So if God does exist, and God so wants, he doesn't need to do much to change me, only some unexplained miracles would probably make me think there is something more out there than I know about, but so far... nothing.

It seems that God is not interested to do that, at least for most of us.

 

Jesus' resurrection is still important to me, and as you probably know already I don't believe (accept) it simply because the Bible says it happened.

 

That of course is one possible interpretation. Another is that it's just a justification for what you feel to be true rather than what really is true.

 

I'm not trying to antagonize you with this response, just pointing out that it's not the only way to interpret the silence. You have to make a lot of assumptions without evidence to come to this conclusion though don't you think?

 

You seem like a very intelligent person. At the same time you seem to have a similar trait in you that I have noticed in other xians who come to this forum in that you believe because you choose to believe and you want to believe.

 

Personally I can't wrap my mind around the idea, at least not anymore, that one would believe something without good evidence. I've seen you go to great lengths on this forum to find reasons to justify your faith. But shouldn't the real question be "why do I believe?"

 

In other words, you seem to be starting from the point of "I already believe, so how can I then justify this belief that I want and choose to have?" This, as opposed to "what is truth and does the evidence overwhelmingly point in one direction?"

 

Let me put this another way. Atheism isn't a belief for me. I just don't have evidence and justification to accept the extraordinary claims that god believers offer up. The default in this is that I can't justify belief. I personally don't see faith as a wise attribute. Faith can be interpreted in many ways. It's belief without evidence. It's emotional reasoning. It's trust. Whatever you wish to label it. In the end, it's choosing to believe in something because you want to.

 

But the world doesn't work that way. I'm a market analyst by profession. I can believe that the market should go in a certain direction and find all kinds of justifications that appear to be valid why I'm right, but if the market goes in another direction then it means I'm wrong. That's just a fact.

 

The same can be true of just about anything in the world. If I were a pharmaceutical researcher I can use anecdotal evidence to justify my beliefs that a drug is beneficial. I can see evidence that it has worked on some patients. But unless the statistics back up my beliefs then I am wrong no matter what kind of justifications I have offered up. Numbers just don't lie.

 

An airplane pilot flying in a storm has this same dilemma. He/she may feel they know which way is up and which way is down, but if they rely on their feelings the plane is likely to crash because feelings are not valid ways to determine what is reality. Reality can only be measured by the plane's instruments and if the pilot can't see due to the storm, he/she must rely on the evidence provided by the instruments in order to remain safe and alive.

 

The results of faith in god are probably less harmful in most cases than the results of faith in the markets, faith in opinion about a drug, or reliance upon feelings and instinct for a pilot, but in the end it is an equally innocuous method of determining reality.

 

I don't know that I can make the statement with a straight face that "the reality is, there is no god." I don't have evidence to prove that. At the same time though, I certainly don't have valid and reliable evidence that proves that there is either. Therefore I don't believe that god doesn't exist and I also don't believe that he does.

 

Make sense?

[Badger]

I hope you understand that I cannot stop believing. That is, it wouldn't be natural to decide that I don't believe henceforward. The issue or process at the moment is not wheter God exists but rather what kind of God exists. Or maybe I'm desperately trying to keep up my faith? How could I know.

[Vigile]

I hope you understand that I cannot stop believing. That is, it wouldn't be natural to decide that I don't believe henceforward. The issue or process at the moment is not wheter God exists but rather what kind of God exists. Or maybe I'm desperately trying to keep up my faith? How could I know.

 

I can certainly understand your position. I've been in something like your shoes and I understand that the concept of not believing is not an option for you.

 

Personally I cannot believe even if I decided to. Belief isn't a decision, it's a position you find yourself in. I truly used to believe but as the questioned started to cascade around me and as I studied more and more the less and less I was able to believe until the point where I just no longer did. Who knows where your own life experiences will take you? Only the future will tell.

[Ouroboros]

I hope you understand that I cannot stop believing. That is, it wouldn't be natural to decide that I don't believe henceforward. The issue or process at the moment is not wheter God exists but rather what kind of God exists. Or maybe I'm desperately trying to keep up my faith? How could I know.

That's head on. That's exactly how I felt for all the years I was Christian, and then over some time, somehow, and I can't really explain how, that conviction eroded, and suddenly one day my mind switched to the opposite and I was not believing. And I feel the same way now about my unbelief, I can't just undo it, or make myself believe something which I know feel to be false. And furthermore, now after that switch, I do find that it makes more sense and is more reasonable to deny the Christian God, but it doesn't mean I deny the possibility of any kind of God, it's just the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God, and variations thereof, and many other gods which doesn't make sense.

[Vigile]

I think it's probably cognitive dissonance. Once it breaks it's like Humpty Dumpty.

[Ouroboros]

I think it's probably cognitive dissonance. Once it breaks it's like Humpty Dumpty.

Exactly. The logical mind knows the belief is irrational, but the emotional ties are too strong. Then one day when the emotional support isn't enough to maintain it, either because the person studied the evidence (or lack thereof) or perhaps the emotional system was numb from experiences contradictory to the ideas, and suddenly the rational mind took over, and the emotional gave in.

[Antlerman]

Personally I can't wrap my mind around the idea, at least not anymore, that one would believe something without good evidence. I've seen you go to great lengths on this forum to find reasons to justify your faith. But shouldn't the real question be "why do I believe?"

 

In other words, you seem to be starting from the point of "I already believe, so how can I then justify this belief that I want and choose to have?" This, as opposed to "what is truth and does the evidence overwhelmingly point in one direction?"

 

Let me put this another way. Atheism isn't a belief for me. I just don't have evidence and justification to accept the extraordinary claims that god believers offer up. The default in this is that I can't justify belief.

I'm responding to Badger through some of the points you raised here. My point is not to engage in debate/discussion with you really, even though I always appreciate the insightful points of view you offer.

 

A couple things stand out to me. The first is you asking the real question, "Why do I believe?" I agree, that's what really is key to understanding why people choose to believe. The conflict really comes when it ties faith over into the "reason" category, where people look for reasons to justify a religious belief. The irony is that if it was justifiable rationally, then it wouldn't be a religious faith anymore. It would just be accepting facts.

 

To ask the question "Why do I believe", once someone sets aside the whole line of thinking that tries to make Faith, based on evidence, reveals another reason that becomes an entire investigation of its own. It becomes an investigation into aspects of being human for many people. "God" is then more about who we are, then who that Being out there is. In short we are pretty much seeing this the same here.

 

I personally don't see faith as a wise attribute. Faith can be interpreted in many ways. It's belief without evidence. It's emotional reasoning. It's trust. Whatever you wish to label it. In the end, it's choosing to believe in something because you want to.

 

But the world doesn't work that way. I'm a market analyst by profession. I can believe that the market should go in a certain direction and find all kinds of justifications that appear to be valid why I'm right, but if the market goes in another direction then it means I'm wrong. That's just a fact.

But I do argue that the world in fact does work this way. Not in its entirety, but certainly in a very large part. People exercise faith all the time in daily living, without mountains of supporting data. It's a normal part of being human, filling in the gaps of knowledge with faith. The difference though is that what modern, post-enlightenment Faith does is try to tie religious faith into the world of reason and evidence. When that happens, then you are most correct. Replacing evidence with faith only, when evidence is critical to the task at hand, would be foolhardiness.

 

But I have come to see the existential equation of humanity, that has little need for critical data for the task of living as a human being. We abstract and symbolize all the time. We choose a thing over another based on purely subjective impulses. All the time. The difference is that instead of abandoning reason for emotion and acts of faith, reason tempers how one acts on faith.

 

Abandoning reason is not a prerequisite for faith. Turning to reason to support faith, is not exercising faith. The best word is "tempered". Not supported. I don't find the concept anti-rational in this vein. What we see with those of Evangelical, literalist thinkers, then "faith" in how they approach it is in fact anti-rational. What I'm talking about here isn't any sort of blind religious faith, but a human faith. The sort of faith we exercise all the time in nearly everything we do.

 

Do you believe life has meaning and value? Where's the evidence to support that? Yet, we choose to believe it does. That's faith. We choose to believe. Now as far as the supernatual components of various religious faiths, those are really beside the point. It's not about faith in those as factual, but about the utilization of symbols that convey transcendent concepts. That's the primary motivation. And the confusion of supporting evidence with the existential "reason" reduces and deminishes the power and value of both. They don't have faith, and they don't have reason.

 

So yes, the question definitely needs to be asked "Why do I believe".

[Vigile]

The difference though is that what modern, post-enlightenment Faith does is try to tie religious faith into the world of reason and evidence. When that happens, then you are most correct. Replacing evidence with faith only, when evidence is critical to the task at hand, would be foolhardiness.

 

I would agree that one's religious beliefs differ quite profoundly from decisions a pilot might have to make or some other profession where hard facts are vital. That's why I said that the results aren't often quite so dangerous. Unless we go to the extremes where religious belief causes one to kill or be killed or otherwise harm then allowing for a large degree of subjectivity might just be what the doctor ordered for a lot of people.

 

As for me, religion was a very important part of my life as a believer but it was vitally important that I not be duping myself or let myself be duped. I wanted truth no matter. Not everyone is like me and I recognize that.

 

I still think that much of religion does a person and society more harm than it does them good, but I can also recognize where we all need to allow for subjectivity in various areas of our lives.

 

For example, is your spouse the best possible spouse for you that you could choose? Wanting hard facts to back that whopper of a question up may not do anyone any good.

 

Getting back to my own experience with religion, as I noted, it was at one time very important to me. Having lost faith and knowing what it is to be on both sides, I now feel so much more free and alive. As a believer, I had no idea how much of a profound impact it was having on me and how little personal freedom I was denied and how oppressed I actually was. So while others may not have the capacity, desire, what have you to really dig deep and get the hard facts about their religious beliefs and to test their subjective assumptions, I still think that a large number of them don't really realize the kind of impact that their beliefs are actually having on them.

 

I would say that anyone who is easily offended by normal sexuality in ads, on film, etc... is probably not really aware of a level of repression that impacts them in some way. I could continue here and make a list of other ways xianity has residual impacts on people, but I think you guys get the point.

[Badger]

Oh Dam. I had a conversation with my friend, Christian as well, and I told my doubts and problems with this God. Had a bad mood and I said that I can't believe anymore, I'm just tired. She was like you're apostate! You don't let God to act in your life... bah bah... and then, the Bible says that and that. It's all about black and white! Oh my... I'm sorry guys what have we have done. We sucks!

[Ouroboros]

Oh Dam. ...

Eh? Are you... serious?

 

(Sorry if I'm a bit paranoid...)

[Antlerman]

Oh Dam. I had a conversation with my friend, Christian as well, and I told my doubts and problems with this God. Had a bad mood and I said that I can't believe anymore, I'm just tired. She was like you're apostate! You don't let God to act in your life... bah bah... and then, the Bible says that and that. It's all about black and white! Oh my... I'm sorry guys what have we have done. We sucks!

Welcome to the club. Now begins your journey. Lot's of freedom for truth for you ahead with the doors opened. It's freedom. Glad to be of support for you... A new world unfolds....

[Badger]

Eh? Are you... serious?

 

(Sorry if I'm a bit paranoid...)

Yes I was. Not that I'm going to abandon my faith yet, but we Christians know how to do this. Instead of trying to understand and listen, we makes sure you know you are apostate and guilty and God's enemy bah bah.

[Ouroboros]

Yes I was. Not that I'm going to abandon my faith yet, but we Christians know how to do this. Instead of trying to understand and listen, we makes sure you know you are apostate and guilty and God's enemy bah bah.

Christian belief is to large extent based on guilt. To feel unworthy, just a sinner, needing salvation, or else...

 

I must say you are a rather brave person. First you admit here, to us, that you do have some doubts, and then you even dare telling another Christian... I must say, my hat off for you. It's very important to be honest to others, but even more so to oneself. Good job.

 

And I can understand if this doesn't mean you leave your faith, but at least you have discovered that there are some issues with religion.

[Badger]

Christian belief is to large extent based on guilt. To feel unworthy, just a sinner, needing salvation, or else...

I think I'm rather lucky then. No guilt, no need to feel to be unworthy sinner. Grace is so wonderful thing, and even if it's just delusion (as you would say) it keeps me going. My life is quite tough at the moment. We are probably going to divorce, I'm plunge into debt, and rather exhausted. Can't work atm. But no panic, I'm getting help and I feel OK in spite of all this shit in my life. The point is, I don't know how could I survice without the idea of grace. I'm not that strong.

 

And I can understand if this doesn't mean you leave your faith, but at least you have discovered that there are some issues with religion.

prepare I will never leave my faith.

[Ouroboros]

I think I'm rather lucky then. No guilt, no need to feel to be unworthy sinner. Grace is so wonderful thing, and even if it's just delusion (as you would say) it keeps me going. My life is quite tough at the moment. We are probably going to divorce, I'm plunge into debt, and rather exhausted. Can't work atm. But no panic, I'm getting help and I feel OK in spite of all this shit in my life. The point is, I don't know how could I survice without the idea of grace. I'm not that strong.

Sorry to hear that you have all these problems. I hope things will turn out good for you.

 

What do you mean with "atm?" Here in US, an ATM is the money-vending machine at the bank. But I suspect you mean something else.

 

prepare I will never leave my faith.

No to scare you too much, but... I used to say the same...

 

Since you're from Finland, you know about Livets Ord. Right?

 

I used to be a member there, and even went to Bible school for one year. My brother went two years, and he's an agnostic after his divorce. His ex-wife is still holy-go-roller-chackabahaya-tongue-speaking-spiritual-warrior.