Introduction...

[Angel of Hope]

I'm 23, and I am a Christian. I describe my faith as "moderate": I believe that the text is important in the Bible, but the message of the text is just as important, if not so. I also believe that, because each book - and some passages of certain books, - were written by different people, God's Word was stated in different ways, and each person could only reveal the piece of the puzzle that they could handle... so to speak. However, the only explanation I have found that accurately explains how so many different people can agree on the same issues, and be from so many conflicting demographics and experiences, is if God Himself was inspiring them to write what they did. Sure, it was written from human perspective; but, it was written based on what God revealed to each person, that they could understand.

 

I look forward to learning more about why people would leave the Christian faith, and why they would choose other faiths over Christianity. My understanding of Christianity may be different from what most are used to, but that just makes for better discussion... and better chances for understanding...

 

May God's peace be upon you all,

 

~A.O.H.~

[mwc]

However, the only explanation I have found that accurately explains how so many different people can agree on the same issues, and be from so many conflicting demographics and experiences, is if God Himself was inspiring them to write what they did. Sure, it was written from human perspective; but, it was written based on what God revealed to each person, that they could understand.

So you should actually do a bit more research on the subject so that you can understand that the agreement that you see is essentially a man-made illusion. To see that there are books that didn't make canon and ideas that were rejected. Not by a "god" but by men.

 

Once you understand this broader concept then you should be able to see how your explaination soon falls by the wayside. It would be like a television producer accepting scripts from many writers but only producing those that agree with their vision of the show. You, the viewer, would see a unified vision and might even wonder how all those various writers managed to pull off such a feat. The truth is that you simply are seeing the behind the scenes activity where many, many scripts are tossed aside for not meeting the proper standards. Their was no invisible hand guiding the writers beforehand but there was someone active in the acceptance of said scripts after they were written. There's nothing special there.

 

The same concept applies to the bible.

 

Go to www.earlychristianwritings.com and www.earlyjewishwritings.com for some examples.

 

mwc

[MathGeek]

In addition, so may want to search out reasons why those early writings were discarded and compare them to the Bible. For example, look at the Gospel of Thomas. There are many sayings in there taken verbatim from the Gospels, but there are sayings in the pages that would not seem to fit in a Christian context. I tried to think of it myself and I got nowhere. Certainly, if a writing was discarded, it must have touched some nerves somewhere along the line. Further investigation into the reasons why these writings were set aside might put your mind at ease.

[Amethyst]

Moving to Colosseum.

[Thurisaz]

However, the only explanation I have found that accurately explains how so many different people can agree on the same issues, and be from so many conflicting demographics and experiences, is if God Himself was inspiring them to write what they did.

 

Three words to burst your bubble: Council of Nicaea.

 

I look forward to learning more about why people would leave the Christian faith, and why they would choose other faiths over Christianity.

 

Let's see, why did I leave?

 

Because after I got in touch with what is my faith today, I felt that I connected. There actually was something I sensed in there, in sharp contrast to christianity which always was a purely social construct to me.

To get poetic, your Jesus never answered me, even when I tried sincerely (didn't try it often, but I did). But Odin and Thor basically just stood beside me suddenly announcing "By the way, we're here if you should want anything from us...".

 

Your turn. Do you have any actual... you know... valid evidence for your faith being true?

[Rhia]

*eye roll*

 

ANOTHER bleeding-heart Fundy who wants their own weak faith strengthened by "seeing" why others would leave and choose other faiths (or no faith at all - *gasp!*), only to find resolve in themselves that they will NEVER be like us?

 

Oh give me a fucking break.

 

Now, since I'm in the Colosseum, and need to have some grain of serious nature:

 

I suspect A.O.H., that you're not here to re-examine your faith, or learn at all from us. I suspect it's more like being at a circus or zoo, and being able to watch the dangerous animals from behind their cages or glass exhibits. We're dangerous, with dangerous ideas. We're not tamed by submission to your god or faith, so the only "safe" interaction is here - where we can talk and type to our heart's content, yet if it ever gets too uncomfortable, all you have to do is log-off.

 

Interesting name, "Angel of Hope" - do you presume to be the "hope-bringer" to us? Has your god placed you on a special mission, but it's easier to remain anonymous and just try to bring us your gospel through the internet?

 

Look, I have no problems with Christians in general - as long as they leave me alone; but to come here and claim innocent "seeing" is bullshit, and trouble waiting to begin. Of course I know, as long as you don't "deny Jesus", he wont "deny" you when you're gone - you went to a safe place, got persecuted a bit, and now Jesus will accept you with open arms.

 

To address your little scripture comment - I highly suggest you either BT or find a copy on dvd of "The God Who Wasn't There", watch it, and get a better understanding from our perspective.

[white_raven23]

However, the only explanation I have found that accurately explains how so many different people can agree on the same issues, and be from so many conflicting demographics and experiences, is if God Himself was inspiring them to write what they did. Sure, it was written from human perspective; but, it was written based on what God revealed to each person, that they could understand.

 

Saying the different authors of the bible "agreed on the same issues" is a red flag for those who have actually READ the books you are talking about.

 

It tells us that you have not actually done so.

 

FYI, having someone else tell you the bible stories and then "interpret" (spin) the context for you, is NOT the same as sitting your lazy ass down, and reading the bible. You are talking about a book that shouldn't require interpretation, or contextual "explanation". The words in the bible mean the same thing as those same words mean in Real Life.

 

Read the bible YOURSELF. Go on...do it....I dare ya. Fastest way to become a nonbeliever I know of.

[Deva]

I look forward to learning more about why people would leave the Christian faith, and why they would choose other faiths over Christianity. My understanding of Christianity may be different from what most are used to, but that just makes for better discussion... and better chances for understanding...

 

 

Because Christianity doesn't make any sense. If the Bible was indeed written from God's revelation, then this God as depicted is not only unjust and hypocritical, in the sense that he doesn't uphold his own standards of morality, I would say he's also psychotic. Why believe in him?

[par4dcourse]

As has been posted before in these forums: A of H, arent' you a little old to have an invisible friend?

[florduh]

Angel, I propose that you are Christian by accident of birth. It is your upbringing and society that set the tone for your beliefs.

 

Should you ever dispassionately study your religion, other belief systems, and history, you may come to the same conclusions that many of us have.

 

Those conclusions are that the Bible is a derivative collection of even older myths, almost arbitrarily gathered into canon, that the book has internal conflicts, is at odds with science and history, and depicts a capricious supreme being who has little tolerance for his own creations.

 

In short, it makes no sense.

[Antlerman]

I look forward to learning more about why people would leave the Christian faith, and why they would choose other faiths over Christianity. My understanding of Christianity may be different from what most are used to, but that just makes for better discussion... and better chances for understanding...

The first part about the Bible seeming to fit so well together, I'll pass for the most part to MWC in the 2nd post here on that one. His analogy is a valid one. There are known redactors who edited and spliced (Ezra), and then councils deciding on which texts to include. But you should also bear in mind also, that a whole lot of theological "fitting" goes in after the fact as well, trying to 'harmonize' such things as the Gospel accounts which at times out right contradict one another. So in reality what you're seeing is not so much the Bible, as it is some created "map" of it that some theologians agreed upon that the councils of priests then promoted and taught as doctrine. So when you pick up the Bible and read it, you have that doctrinal view already in mind.

 

Example: Every read the Pauline epistles? You always imagine it referring to this Jesus you read about in the Gospels, right? But you realize that those were written after Paul, and that never once does Paul refer to any - not one - of the events of Jesus' life or miracles or teachings that are in the Gospels. Yet we read his texts with the assumption he knew the stories, despite never mentioning them. Why? Is it because they come after the Gospel's in the order of books? Is it because we're taught he believed that, despite never actually stating so himself?

 

My point is, you cannot divorce what people have come up with to try to make it fit that has be instilled in you, as going a long way to creating this illusion that it's so "perfect". There's an old saying, "The best way to become an atheist is to read the Bible". Once you really dig into it, the edifice of theology starts showing grave cracks in it, and you end up seeing it as system created by men to establish the rule of religion. It may not have started that way, but in the end, that's what you have. It's marketing.

 

So to answer your real question, why did I leave? Because as a system for living a full and meaningful human life, it failed to help me thrive. It didn't work for me. I don't reject some of the better ideals, I just find the system to be broken. It being true or not is really an irrelevant question to that. But what I'm pointing out about it's fallibility is simply to strip away any illusions that people build up to try to justify one system over another. It's really irrelevant to justify it. The fruits you produce through whatever system you use is what's relevant, not whether or not it's a system of historical/empirical facts or a system of myth signs.

 

By all means ask more. I'm more than happy to share my thoughts in a sincere and respectful discussion.

[Taphophilia]

Angel,

 

Just in case you are not a hit and run Christian. There are many members on this site who were Christians longer than you have been alive. Not only that, but we have studied the Bible and Christianity, at length, and in depth. Most of us were either pastors, missionaries, theological and seminary students, and/or Sunday School teachers who had devoted our lives much more than your "moderate" self to our once beliefs.

 

Many of us were hard core Christians. Not only have we heard all the apologetics and read them and studied them, but also had used the same arguments to defend our faith. Trying to teach us about Christianity or the Bible, is like trying to teach a doctor about medicine. There isn't anything you can tell us that we already know, and also know all the counter issues related to your "diagnosis".

 

We did not choose to walk away from Christianity. In fact, we had no choice. We didn't turn our back on Jesus. He slowly vanished before our eyes as we tried desperately to cling to him.

[Justin]

However, the only explanation I have found that accurately explains how so many different people can agree on the same issues, and be from so many conflicting demographics and experiences, is if God Himself was inspiring them to write what they did. Sure, it was written from human perspective; but, it was written based on what God revealed to each person, that they could understand.

 

You have no point with this. The "conflicting demographics and experiences" you speak of is how we have so many omisions, contradictions and internal inconsistencies in the bible. Hell, christians today can't even agree on what that book says, which is why there are as many different denominations of christianity as there are grains of sand on the beach. So much for it being the perfect word of god, he can't even get his own story straight. If god wrote the bible via revealing to each person what he wanted wrote down, then he is a complete, incompetant doofus.

 

Trying to teach us about Christianity or the Bible, is like trying to teach a doctor about medicine. There isn't anything you can tell us that we already know, and also know all the counter issues related to your "diagnosis".

 

We did not choose to walk away from Christianity. In fact, we had no choice. We didn't turn our back on Jesus. He slowly vanished before our eyes as we tried desperately to cling to him

 

Beautifully put Taphophilia!

 

Angel of Hope, you are wasting your time preaching to us. Even though i believe you are yet another post and run christian, i invite you to explore these boards with an opened mind. Who knows what may happen. We here have seen the light. When will you peer under your bed and realize there isn't nor was there ever a monster under there?

[Astreja]

Angel, fasten thy seatbelt -- Thou art in for quite a rough ride here.

 

I'm 23, and I am a Christian.

I'm 50, and I am an agnostic humanist Ásatrúar who dabbles in non-theistic Buddhism and ecumenical polytheism. In other words, you're liable to find Oðinn, Lakshmi, Athena, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Morrigan, the Parking Gods, Raven and the Invisible Pink Unicorn (mHhhnbs!) at My dinner table, regardless of whose festival it actually happens to be that day.

 

I describe my faith as "moderate": I believe that the text is important in the Bible, but the message of the text is just as important, if not so.

I describe My faith as all but nonexistent, and that's fine. When I say 'faith', I mean faith in My own abilities, and the courage to get through damn near anything the universe tosses My way. I have no particularly pressing need to see gods as anything other than metaphor, because in My opinion humans are the beings best situated to solve human problems. I believe that, until the existence of supernatural beings is proved beyond any reasonable doubt, scripture is always the work of humans, not gods.

 

I look forward to learning more about why people would leave the Christian faith, and why they would choose other faiths over Christianity.

Why I want nothing to do with Christianity:

• Obsession with blood sacrifice, including substitutionary atonement.
  
• Views humanity as intrinsically evil and deserving of eternal punishment.
  
• Highly inconsistent and frequently immoral behaviour of key Bible characters, including both Yahweh and Jesus.
  
• Still upset about the Christianization of Norway and Iceland.
  
• Still upset about the murder of Giordano Bruno.
  
• Still very, very upset about the witch hunts in the early 1600's in Germany.
  
• Still livid about the murder of Hypatia.
  
• Mildly miffed about pagan holidays being co-opted by Christianity, but it does make for some twisted fun to watch non-heiðinn discover the joys of candy eggs, bunny rabbits, and trees covered in pretty lights.
  

[chefranden]

...I also believe that, because each book - and some passages of certain books, - were written by different people, God's Word was stated in different ways, and each person could only reveal the piece of the puzzle that they could handle... so to speak. However, the only explanation I have found that accurately explains how so many different people can agree on the same issues, and be from so many conflicting demographics and experiences, is if God Himself was inspiring them to write what they did. Sure, it was written from human perspective; but, it was written based on what God revealed to each person, that they could understand...

~A.O.H.~

 

I assume that you are considering the bible agreeing on the same issues and not the people in the church in general.

 

I wonder why the widespread disagreement among the myriad christian brands doesn't cause you to question the validity of your statement. Not even the prayer of Jesus to himself could keep the church unified (john17). I suspect that you have either read the text superficially according to one devotion plan or another, or as is usually the case with Christians you have not read it at all. If you had read it, it wouldn't take long to find some serious disagreement among its authors. I bet you never noticed the dichotomy between Ezekiel (EZ18) and Matthew's Jesus (MT25:31-46) concerning their version of salvation and Paul's version of salvation in Romans.

 

Perhaps you haven't even noticed such simple disagreements as the difference in Jesus' alleged genealogy between Matthew and Luke. Have you ever wondered why none of the real disciples ever got to contribute to the theology handed down to you from the false apostle Paul? In Galatians Paul takes great pains to insist that he wasn't influenced in his gospel by the 12. Why?

 

I think that you will have a difficult time getting folks to agree with you concerning this miraculous agreement among biblical authors.

 

Enjoy your stay.

[Ouroboros]

[*]Highly inconsistent and frequently immoral behaviour of key Bible characters, including both Yahweh and Jesus.

And highly inconsistent and frequent immoral behavior of Christians, who lie about their experience and faith and make up stuff as they go, while proclaiming that the rest of the world should follow the ten commandments, or that they kill in the name of God so they can preach "thou shalt not kill."

 

 

Btw, I think Angel of Hope became the fallen angel of lost hope...

[MathGeek]

I am quite suprised that she omitted these folks in the OP...

 

Suetonius

Pliny the Younger

Tacitus

Josephus

[Justin]

I don't understand it, i mean i simply don't get it. Yet another post and run christian, just like i thought. Why don't they have the balls to ever stick around once they are slapped upside the face with the truth? You would think, being as certain of their beliefs as they are, that they would come on here and post endlessly in defense of their religion. Post source after source as proof that they are right, yet all we get is this yellow bellied horse shit. Cowards, the lot of ya.

[OnceConvinced]

I don't understand it, i mean i simply don't get it. Yet another post and run christian, just like i thought. Why don't they have the balls to ever stick around once they are slapped upside the face with the truth? You would think, being as certain of their beliefs as they are, that they would come on here and post endlessly in defense of their religion. Post source after source as proof that they are right, yet all we get is this yellow bellied horse shit. Cowards, the lot of ya.

You'd think with God/Holy Spirit on their side, they'd have the strength to battle it out, wouldn't you?

[MathGeek]

This may seem like a pointless question...How many ex-christians from this site went back to the faith?

 

This may be the blasphemies of all blasphemies, but I believe it can happen. Has it really happened though?

[Thurisaz]

I don't understand it, i mean i simply don't get it. Yet another post and run christian, just like i thought. Why don't they have the balls to ever stick around once they are slapped upside the face with the truth? You would think, being as certain of their beliefs as they are, that they would come on here and post endlessly in defense of their religion. Post source after source as proof that they are right, yet all we get is this yellow bellied horse shit. Cowards, the lot of ya.

 

I'm not surprised actually. As far as I can tell, in morontheists covens it is believed, and widely so, that the only reason for not being a cultist is that one never heard the cult's dogma. Hence Mr or Ms Average Morontheist thinks "Gee, so many lost souls on that site - I'll just convert them by telling them what my wonderful cult is all about" and is absolutely sure that we'll all convert immediately.

 

Sadly (for them... amusing for some of us, nauseating for others) their dogma never even acknowledges that there is such a thing as an EXchristian... someone who knows exactly what the cult is all about and rejects it for exactly that reason. When Mr or Ms Average Morontheist realizes this fact - that reality stubbornly refuses to change just because (s)he adheres to such a crappy dogma - (s)he runs away screaming. Presto - another seagull morontheist let loose on the world.

[Thurisaz]

This may seem like a pointless question...How many ex-christians from this site went back to the faith?

 

This may be the blasphemies of all blasphemies, but I believe it can happen. Has it really happened though?

 

I remember at least three persons who reconverted.

 

They all came back sooner or later... but they did reconvert once (or several times, in at least one case).

 

No I won't mention the names here.

 

That said, as I see it, the only reason for somone reconverting is a load of residual brainwashing that's much more heavy than the person thought before. I have yet to meet anyone with a plausible, reasonable, logical reason to do so.

[Antlerman]

This may seem like a pointless question...How many ex-christians from this site went back to the faith?

 

This may be the blasphemies of all blasphemies, but I believe it can happen. Has it really happened though?

Sure, there have been those who "backslide" into their former life of sin as church-going Christians. Those who do and never come back, were never True ExChristians™ anyway. (kind of fun to turn that lingo around on them).

 

Seriously though, there's lots of reasons why someone convert back to the religion they left from. I see someone like our OP poster and some other recent Christians visitors here as just not having the exposure to the reasons why people would leave, or more importantly, how they could leave.

 

They don't really fathom the reasons behind it because it's outside their sphere of experience. So AoH in the OP, like many sincere people before her, try to see it as something as simple as we were hurt by carnal Christians; we didn't hear the message they did that means so much to them; etc. I feel it honestly seems incomprehensible to them, because they just simply see everything in the light of that way of thinking. That's a reflection on their shortcomings, not our rightness or wrongness in our choices. To them it is truth, and they know of no other way to see truth. Some point a finger and judge, others just honestly don't understand and try to do what they feel is the loving thing to do, misguided as that may seem from the context of where we are today.

 

This is why I don't immediately assume someone is insensitive, and why you next to never see me slap someone in the face. (I'm more than capable of wrath, in case you assume me as some pacifist). There's a huge difference between being insensitive and being ignorant. I'm not going to make the assumption of insensitivity first thing, as I see ignorance as being the mostly likely reason. I am tolerate of people's unawareness, and if they ask a question, or even act on a presumption that we must not really understand, I'll take them at their word until their responses begin to show a total unwillingness to even attempt to try to understand us through the eyes we see. But I don't come to that place of dismissal easily as people are complex. I believe in communication.

 

Is the OP a post and run? Don't know, but I doubt it actually. Two other possibilities: She either posted this and is planning to check back after a few days, which it's only been a couple; or she has logged on as guest (since she logged off right after posting this), read the responses, and doesn't know how to respond as it's not what she expected as it was outside her experience. I'm betting she'll be back over the next week and respond.

 

You talked about people who were ExC's and went back? There are many likewise who were converted Christians, who after coming here and actually getting to discuss things with people, discovered that their assumptions were off base and that they changed. Quite a number of them also left Christianity as they found their own questions being addressed. How much you want to bet she'll be back within the next week?

[Justin]

Seriously though, there's lots of reasons why someone convert back to the religion they left from.

 

In my experience, being born and raised in something is quiet a difficult thing to tear away from. Even when you see solid, concrete, indisputable evidence that flies in the face of your beliefs and renders them false it's still hard to walk away from. When i first came here back in early 06, the first time i deconverted, i had it shown to me by many people how insane the biblical flood, creation, babel and such was. After i reconverted back to christianity i still was firmly convinced that many things in the bible were false. Why did i stay? Fear. I feared god and what he would do to me or my family, even knowing fully that most of the bible was crap, i still held onto it out of fear. The other factor is what i said above, being born and raised in it, being conditioned to it. Most people don't like change, especially when the thing you need to change is what you're whole life is structured around, what has been with you since the beginning. Couple fear of an angry god with the complete change of your system of life and it is very understandable how one can slide back or fully convert back. It's like drugs people, religion is like drugs.

 

You talked about people who were ExC's and went back? There are many likewise who were converted Christians, who after coming here and actually getting to discuss things with people, discovered that their assumptions were off base and that they changed. Quite a number of them also left Christianity as they found their own questions being addressed. How much you want to bet she'll be back within the next week?

 

That truely is wonderful to hear. I made a topic a few months back asking this very thing and no one could think of any christian who came on here and changed their ways. That is great to hear.

[Antlerman]

Seriously though, there's lots of reasons why someone convert back to the religion they left from.

 

In my experience, being born and raised in something is quiet a difficult thing to tear away from. Even when you see solid, concrete, indisputable evidence that flies in the face of your beliefs and renders them false it's still hard to walk away from. When i first came here back in early 06, the first time i deconverted, i had it shown to me by many people how insane the biblical flood, creation, babel and such was. After i reconverted back to christianity i still was firmly convinced that many things in the bible were false. Why did i stay? Fear. I feared god and what he would do to me or my family, even knowing fully that most of the bible was crap, i still held onto it out of fear. The other factor is what i said above, being born and raised in it, being conditioned to it. Most people don't like change, especially when the thing you need to change is what you're whole life is structured around, what has been with you since the beginning. Couple fear of an angry god with the complete change of your system of life and it is very understandable how one can slide back or fully convert back. It's like drugs people, religion is like drugs.

Yes, I can very much see this. What it is is not just a belief, but an entire culture. In many regards it's like breaking up with a long term relationship. It's not only about the person, it's the rituals, the patterns that were part of that relationship. You no longer have to go pick them up from work at a certain time, you don't have sounding board, you don't have the company, etc, etc, etc.

 

When someone grows up in a culture of religion and then walks away, there's a break in the connections that are a part of that association. And it goes beyond just a relationship of one, but a whole community. As someone finds themselves isolated from that, it would be very easy to try to set aside the bad parts and try to regain the positive. How far one has to compromise themselves, how untrue to themselves they have to go, how deep a conflict it creates, is what will ultimately determine them staying or leaving.

 

For me it was actually not as difficult as someone having grown up in it. I was raised in a nominal "Christian" home, as part of a family part of our Christian culture (church on Easter and Christmas, grace at table occasionally, etc). I converted at 19 to a fundi church. Coming out of Bible College I was less rooted in a home church, and my doubts that my schooling amplified allowed me to just make a fairly quite break from them without great public spectacle (save for the 60 page thesis I wrote and mailed to my home pastor, detailing all my reasons for leaving the church and turning down the role as associate pastor at his church. Found out some years later he brought it my professor from the college asking him to explain what it was all about! Never heard what he had to say about it. )

 

So anyway, the point is I came to the religion for my own reasons, and after I left it my reasons are still mine alone. I can certainly appreciate the difficulty someone growing up in it would have making a break. It's much more than just doctrinal beliefs. It's a whole culture you grew up in. I never had that to overcome along with everything else.

 

You talked about people who were ExC's and went back? There are many likewise who were converted Christians, who after coming here and actually getting to discuss things with people, discovered that their assumptions were off base and that they changed. Quite a number of them also left Christianity as they found their own questions being addressed. How much you want to bet she'll be back within the next week?

 

That truely is wonderful to hear. I made a topic a few months back asking this very thing and no one could think of any christian who came on here and changed their ways. That is great to hear.

There's about 4 or 5 that I spent time talking with who changed how they believed, plus I've seen quite a few more as well. A lot of people coming here may be defensive about their beliefs, but in those cases it was them testing their faith for themselves in the face of challenge. To others it may appear to be just another hard-headed fundi, but to be honest, it's way less than half that are what I would consider hard-core fundi to the point they are absolutely blind and closed to any thought that doesn't square with what they've been taught. Most others will argue the point, but the reasons are different.

 

I would never set out to destroy someone's faith. And likewise I wouldn't destroy an opportunity for them to learn, to try to see things for themselves, by beating the crap out of them for bringing their religious luggage with them into discussion. Everyone's trying to figure the same thing out. Some are just stuck. You have to ask yourself, what exactly is it that someone coming here is really hoping to do when they 'reach out' to us? I always ask myself the question, what is it they are looking for for themselves? It's moving above and beyond the argument to the real question that drives all the rhetoric.