Antlerman Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I am fully aware that I tend to judge Christians harshly, and I do so from a multiple perspectives: first I have found the majority of them who come here to be rather rude -- really, the majority of them, not just a few --, and secondly I many times put the visiting Christians through my own little "test" to see if they're honest about discussing and even conceding points when they realize they stepped a bit too far. And you have, so you passed the test. You have to understand that no-one can really ever get to a better understanding of things, unless they're willing to be wrong and change when they get their faults revealed. And also, sometimes we get to a point where you know you react and feel in certain ways, without having a good explanation for it, but still know that this is the case. You know yourself. We're not perfect, but to know one's own faults -- even if they're not correct yet -- is always the first step to become a better person. Right? So well said. I have to admit being a bit amazed that of the latest visiting Christians are actually talking with us, instead of at us. Kudos to both AOH and Aaron. Now if only the rest of the world would listen.... everyone needs to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Angel, I apologize for sounding like a broken record, but I'm very interested in an answer to the question I posted two pages ago: A quick question for you, Angel: if reality and your beliefs do not match up, which one wins? Perhaps this question got lost in the shuffle. If you could take a few moments and indulge me with an answer, I'd be most grateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel of Hope Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Angel, I apologize for sounding like a broken record, but I'm very interested in an answer to the question I posted two pages ago: A quick question for you, Angel: if reality and your beliefs do not match up, which one wins? Perhaps this question got lost in the shuffle. If you could take a few moments and indulge me with an answer, I'd be most grateful. Firstly, I want to say that it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that I might be somewhat prejudiced against homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people. That doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do. That just means I have made unfair conclusions about them. I actually just came to understand that tonight, while reading a friend's weblog, where she says she has fallen in love with another girl. I know the kid, and she is screwed up, but she is the sweetest kid you could ever meet, and her feelings are always (as far as I know,) genuine. Ya know how it is when you've based so many of your beliefs on one point; and then, when that point has failed you, it all starts crashing down around you? Maybe it's because I'm so worn out from lack of sleep... maybe it's just that my mom's death is still hitting me pretty hard... but I'm starting to get confused now. Not about my faith, mind you, but about some of the things I used to believe went along with it. On to your question, Gwenmead (and I ask you to forgive me for overlooking you): When reality points out where your beliefs were wrong, you have one of three choices: - Modify your beliefs so you can better understand reality, - Abandon your beliefs, thus abandoning both the good and bad points about them (and the truth with the falsehood), or - Blindly ignore the evidence, and rail against it... subsequently making your faith shipwrecked, by not using the truth to strengthen it, but instead weakening it with ignorance. Things are all up in the air for me right now, so forgive me if I don't get the point across as effectively as I would like... I guess Christians and ex-Christians don't have to be on opposite sides on everything, after all... God bless (and I don't mean that to offend, just because I do want God to bless you all), ~AOH~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 I actually just came to understand that tonight, while reading a friend's weblog, where she says she has fallen in love with another girl. I know the kid, and she is screwed up, but she is the sweetest kid you could ever meet, and her feelings are always (as far as I know,) genuine. Ya know how it is when you've based so many of your beliefs on one point; and then, when that point has failed you, it all starts crashing down around you? Maybe it's because I'm so worn out from lack of sleep... maybe it's just that my mom's death is still hitting me pretty hard... but I'm starting to get confused now. Not about my faith, mind you, but about some of the things I used to believe went along with it. Maybe there is hope for you after all. If you can see the error of your ways in one facet of your religion, then maybe you can come to see the other errors too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Ya know how it is when you've based so many of your beliefs on one point; and then, when that point has failed you, it all starts crashing down around you? Maybe it's because I'm so worn out from lack of sleep... maybe it's just that my mom's death is still hitting me pretty hard... but I'm starting to get confused now. Not about my faith, mind you, but about some of the things I used to believe went along with it. The thought comes to me about the comparison of the willow and the oak. Willow is "stronger" than oak because it's flexible and resists breaking by bending, whereas with enough pressure oak will snap. A flexible faith is far stronger than a rigid one. It's better to hold beliefs with an open hand, than to grip them so tightly they will drag you down as they fail. When reality points out where your beliefs were wrong, you have one of three choices: - Modify your beliefs so you can better understand reality, - Abandon your beliefs, thus abandoning both the good and bad points about them (and the truth with the falsehood), or - Blindly ignore the evidence, and rail against it... subsequently making your faith shipwrecked, by not using the truth to strengthen it, but instead weakening it with ignorance. Or find new beliefs that give you what you positive things you got from your previous ones, but also give you what you weren't getting from the one's you've moved beyond. (Essentially fits under "Modify your beliefs") I guess Christians and ex-Christians don't have to be on opposite sides on everything, after all... It's so rare to hear this. Congratulations on not only listening but hearing. As far as I'm concerned that's more important than what system of symbols one uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Firstly, I want to say that it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that I might be somewhat prejudiced against homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people. That doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do. That just means I have made unfair conclusions about them. When reality points out where your beliefs were wrong, you have one of three choices: - Modify your beliefs so you can better understand reality, - Abandon your beliefs, thus abandoning both the good and bad points about them (and the truth with the falsehood), or - Blindly ignore the evidence, and rail against it... subsequently making your faith shipwrecked, by not using the truth to strengthen it, but instead weakening it with ignorance. I guess Christians and ex-Christians don't have to be on opposite sides on everything, after all... God bless (and I don't mean that to offend, just because I do want God to bless you all), ~AOH~ You've gained my respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Firstly, I want to say that it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that I might be somewhat prejudiced against homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people. That doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do. That just means I have made unfair conclusions about them. Bingo. The thing is that we all, including me, carry around unreasonable fears and prejudice against people we don't understand and things we don't know enough about. The key, or more like the start to healing, is that we at least become aware of our own shortcomings. I actually just came to understand that tonight, while reading a friend's weblog, where she says she has fallen in love with another girl. I know the kid, and she is screwed up, but she is the sweetest kid you could ever meet, and her feelings are always (as far as I know,) genuine. Exactly. How can you force someone to love someone of the same gender? Going back to some of your earlier statements, that most homosexuals would have that inclination because they were forced into it, but that means they would be falling in love against their own nature. And how is that possible? Most of the time we portray and talk about love as something that we do not control, but comes from our most inner being, an involuntary feeling of attraction towards someone. So how is that possible to "re-program" through any means? Do you see what I'm saying here? It's one thing that someone has a strange desire for some rare sexual pleasures, but that is not love. So how does a majority of homosexuals ask for the right to get married, because they "love" the other partner? Or is it that the prejudicial heterosexual majority have decided that homosexuals don't know what they're talking about and they don't understand their own feelings? Basically, do the bigoted majority justify the prosecution on assumptions? Ya know how it is when you've based so many of your beliefs on one point; and then, when that point has failed you, it all starts crashing down around you? Maybe it's because I'm so worn out from lack of sleep... maybe it's just that my mom's death is still hitting me pretty hard... but I'm starting to get confused now. Not about my faith, mind you, but about some of the things I used to believe went along with it. Get some sleep. Take some days and get rest. Sleep deprivation can screw up your life in many and serious ways, so try to get some "you"-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 You've gained my respect. I 2nd that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Greetings, Angel. Firstly, I want to say that it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that I might be somewhat prejudiced against homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people. That doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do. That just means I have made unfair conclusions about them. I actually just came to understand that tonight, while reading a friend's weblog, where she says she has fallen in love with another girl. I know the kid, and she is screwed up, but she is the sweetest kid you could ever meet, and her feelings are always (as far as I know,) genuine. This is very introspective of you. I commend you for being able to examine your views, and for being able to admit that some of them may be wrong. For the record: I lived a very sheltered life under a very controlling set of parents with very conservative viewpoints. I literally knew nothing about homosexuality until I hit college. One of the best experiences I ever had was being able to sit down with a very generous gay friend and actually talk to him about being gay - find out what his life was like, how his sexuality differed from my straight sexuality, ask all kinds of stupid questions. It put a human face on something I just didn't know about. That was the best thing for getting around my own presuppositions and ignorance, and I will be forever grateful to my friend for his patience and understanding on the matter. Ya know how it is when you've based so many of your beliefs on one point; and then, when that point has failed you, it all starts crashing down around you? Maybe it's because I'm so worn out from lack of sleep... maybe it's just that my mom's death is still hitting me pretty hard... but I'm starting to get confused now. Not about my faith, mind you, but about some of the things I used to believe went along with it. Oh Angel, I didn't know your mom had died. If you posted about that earlier I must've missed it... I'm so sorry. Please accept my condolences on your loss. Yes I do know what it's like to have one's beliefs start to shake apart or crash. Deconversion was a bit like that, but I've had other experiences where some single focus failed me and shook everything up. It's unsettling at best; it can completely rearrange your paradigm at worst. For what it's worth, though: every time I've been through some total paradigm shift like that, it's been worth every minute of upset in the end. Hang in there and things will work out eventually. When reality points out where your beliefs were wrong, you have one of three choices: - Modify your beliefs so you can better understand reality, - Abandon your beliefs, thus abandoning both the good and bad points about them (and the truth with the falsehood), or - Blindly ignore the evidence, and rail against it... subsequently making your faith shipwrecked, by not using the truth to strengthen it, but instead weakening it with ignorance. Thank you for your answer. No worries about overlooking the question earlier; there's a lot going on and a lot of questions to answer. I suppose that my next questions would be things like: --How well do your beliefs mesh with reality? --How can you tell? --What are you going to do if they don't? And mostly these are just exercises in thought. What are you going to do, if you find that what you believe doesn't match up with reality? I guess Christians and ex-Christians don't have to be on opposite sides on everything, after all... No, of course we don't. There are plenty of places where believers and ex-believers alike will find themselves on the same page, or in a similar place. It is an unfortunate thing that too many xians teach a very black-and-white way of looking at the world, and teach that anyone who is not a believer is an enemy. It is a fortunate thing that it isn't actually true. God bless (and I don't mean that to offend, just because I do want God to bless you all), Thank you kindly. I hope that you have a good day and life treats you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Firstly, I want to say that it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that I might be somewhat prejudiced against homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people. That doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do. That just means I have made unfair conclusions about them. I actually just came to understand that tonight, while reading a friend's weblog, where she says she has fallen in love with another girl. I know the kid, and she is screwed up, but she is the sweetest kid you could ever meet, and her feelings are always (as far as I know,) genuine. Good for you, I really mean that. Most of the Christians who come here would never admit something like this to us, and it shows a lot of guts to be willing to challenge ones old beliefs. Most people seldom do so. Most Christians come here to preach and never really listen to anything we say, so I apologize if I came across as harsh, particularly since it seems you lost a loved one recently. As I said before, I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings but just get you to think critically about your beliefs. It seems you are doing just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Firstly, I want to say that it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that I might be somewhat prejudiced against homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people. That doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do. That just means I have made unfair conclusions about them. I respect your ability to be this honest with us. Ya know how it is when you've based so many of your beliefs on one point; and then, when that point has failed you, it all starts crashing down around you? Maybe it's because I'm so worn out from lack of sleep... maybe it's just that my mom's death is still hitting me pretty hard... but I'm starting to get confused now. Not about my faith, mind you, but about some of the things I used to believe went along with it. I agree with Han, get some sleep, and take care of yourself. I am so sorry to hear about your mother that has to be very hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel of Hope Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Thanks to everyone for understanding, and for your concern... It seems I have a lot of people to apologize to in my personal life... ~AOH~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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