Atheist And Abortion?

[Vigile]

Your position on this seems more emotional than fact driven.

I think this is a thinly veiled ad hom. Of course my emotions are engaged. I hope yours are too.

 

You and your accusations of ad homs gets a bit tired. You accuse me of being evasive and yet that is exactly what you are doing with this accusation. Explain to me why convenient preconceptive stopping of potential life differs from post conceptive stopping of life. My argument is that the only difference is emotive. It was not an ad hom.

[Legion]

Explain to me why convenient preconceptive stopping of potential life differs from post conceptive stopping of life.

You didn't say the magic word. And I am tired of this subject for moment. Perhaps I'll pick it up later.

[Dianka]

I think this is a thinly veiled ad hom. Of course my emotions are engaged. I hope yours are too.

 

 

Emotion without logic to back up your stand that women who have abortions should be shamed by outsiders like yourself is really sad. Not once have you defended it. Could it be that the dedication it would take to look deeper and find out why women really have abortions it too much to ask of you? Too inconvenient deliver a compelling argument, is it?

[Pecker]

Yikes, didn't think I'd kick off this heated of a discussion so early on during my time on this board.

 

Editing just because I can.

[Legion]

Yikes, didn't think I'd kick off this heated of a discussion so early on during my time on this board.

Pecker this subject has come up several times now during my two years here. And it's always heated and devisive in my estimation.

 

Editing just because I can.

[Vigile]

You didn't say the magic word

 

Trust me, with your passive agressive attitude I never will.

 

Smart ass

[Legion]

You didn't say the magic word

 

Trust me, with your passive agressive attitude I never will.

 

I suspect it's your condescension that prevents you.

[Kuroikaze]

You didn't say the magic word

 

Trust me, with your passive agressive attitude I never will.

 

I suspect it's your condescension that prevents you.

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for evidence to support a moral position.

 

I would think that as a fellow ex-christian you would appreciate the risks of holding onto beliefs that are not properly supported by evidence and logic.

[Kuroikaze]

Your position on this seems more emotional than fact driven.

I think this is a thinly veiled ad hom. Of course my emotions are engaged. I hope yours are too.

 

There is nothing wrong with engaging ones emotions, but they should not be used as a factor to decide which actions are moral or immoral.

[barbiebrains100]

I have no clue as to what "an abortion of convinience" means. Abortion is birth control. The fetus is not a tiny person. I won't shed tears over my use of an interuterine device...once it is implanted, I will have no idea how many tiny people were discharged from my uterus. Heap shame on those that would control your reproductive freedom. Countries like El Salvador, Iran, Saudi Arabia.....pro-life nations!!! Shit happens, lives are complex and there is often resentment from those who feel shackled by the bellyfruit they cannot manage yet chose to birth....yet they cannot admit this, not even to themselves. I choose freedom. 'Nuff said.

[Asimov]

I choose freedom. 'Nuff said.

 

Exactly.

[Ouroboros]

Yikes, didn't think I'd kick off this heated of a discussion so early on during my time on this board.

Nah, it's just a very beaten up horse. It's pretty much the same arguments, re-iterated. We have this debate about once or twice a year. It was about time anyway.

[SilentLoner]

El Salvador is an example of a Pro-Life nation where you get 30 YEARS in the slammer for an abortion.

 

Memories of my home country, indeed.

 

I remember in middle school one of our teachers (she used to work as a nurse) told us about a 15 year old girl who got an illegal abortion in one of the villages (I'll never forget the word she used "brujas del campo" meaning "wiches of the countryside"). Got her uterus punctured, she died horribly of a massive infetion.

 

Sad thing is, my teacher tried to paint the sad part as the fact that she's had the abortion to begin with, not that she died due to a lack of proper care. Even as a 14 year old I could see that.

 

I used to be anti-choice (prolife if you prefer) during my catholic days, but this I belive was the start of my doubts that over the years became a furiously detemined support for abortion rights.

 

I'm actively pro-choice, working with a pro choice group on my campus, escorting at clinics, counter protesting, you name it.

[.god]

I think having babies is a damn inconvenient thing. And I think life is the most extraordinary phenomenon in the universe.

 

So I say keep abortion legal and heap shame upon those who get abortions because the life they brought into this world inconveniences them.

 

I think the problem I have with this statement is that it smacks of prejudgement.

Basically it's: "shame them first, ask questions later"

..oh but you got raped.. I guess that's okay then.. oh, your husband beat and raped you and threatened your life if you left him, I guess that's okay then.. as if somehow making these allowances later magically erases the shame heaped upon them first.

 

Prejudgement is the basis of intolerance and prejudice in our society. Combine that with black and white blanket statements and vague subjective definitions (define what constitutes an "inconvenience" in this case please), and whew, decisions become so simple. I think A is B. I think A is good. Therefore anyone who opposed B is bad!

[barbiebrains100]

Silentloner,

 

The New York Times featured an article on women who are jailed in El Salvador for having "inconvenient" abortions. As you are probably well aware, the wealthy Salvadoran women fly to Houston for their abortions. Poor women end up with septic abortions and jailed. My country is north of yours: Mexico. We are fighting for reproductive freedom. We are fighting Pope Ratzinazi and his SICKO cohorts. As of 2007, abortion is only legal during the first trimester and ONLY in Mexico City. If I had been born into poverty instead of living in a world of doilies, flower arrangements and manicures, I would have either used the coat-hanger, or brujas ( te dan hierbas bastante tóxicas). The Mexican Constitution has a clause that defines human life from the moment of conception. The Catholic Church PROTESTS clinics that give people access to birth control. They are now threatening to excommunicate ANY politician who defends reproductive rights for women. I had to leave Mexico for my own good. It was time. I packed it up. I stripped the bed, boxed up the cat, loaded the U-Haul, and was willing to FLEE anywhere with a mind-set not stuck like a bloody nail in the moral coffin of 1845. It was my clarion call. I got the hell right out. Mexico is apparently run by pallid sexless demagogic men who think they know something about life, morality….but know only ignominy and the smell of sulfur and death in their nightmares, and who think that I am an irresponsible dumb-ass piece of meat, unable to handle my own decisions, my own body, my own sex.

[.god]

And a human life does begin at conception, whether you believe it or not.

 

I like that nice blanket definition.

 

Let me tell you a story from my old roommate's EMT instructor. The guy (an EMT) had been on call for a pregnant woman who had been in a car accident and the shock had caused her to go into early labor. By the side of the road, the EMT was assisting the lady in the delivery of what he thought was probably going to be a premature baby, but instead what came out in his hands was rather like large black, misshapen cucumber. The very distraught lady kept asking if the baby was a boy or a girl, but the EMT quickly wrapped up the ugly tumor and told her she had miscarried.

 

So yeah, I can't say I believe life begins at conception.

 

You might try looking into Gestational Trophoblastic Disease, a group of diseases that begin after conception that usually results in tumors or cancerous growth.

Did human life begin at the conception (joining of the sperm and egg in the uterus) in these cases? You tell me.

[Outback Jack]

BTW, I seem to recall that many places (states?) that make killing a fetus during the commission of a crime a murder or manslaughter crime (i.e. shooting a pregnant woman who lives, but killing the fetus).

 

No they don't, they perfectly support my statement, maybe you should read the laws in the states with more than just a passing glance. At no point does any law refer to a fetus as a person. A person has rights and duties, a fetus has no rights. You will always see the phrases, unborn child, in utero, fetus...

As I said, I had been drinking and didn't feel like it at the time. But it's another day now and I took your suggestion...

 

And, yep. You're wrong. Many laws do state that a fetus is a "person"

 

Some examples:

Alabama: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (HB 19) amended Section 13A-6-1 of the Code of Alabama to include "an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability" as a "person" and "human being" for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault.

Alaska Statutes 11.81.900 defines "unborn child" as "a member of species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

Kentucky: The law covers an "unborn child," defined as "a member of the species homo sapiens in utero from conception onward, without regard to age, health, or condition of dependency."

[Outback Jack]

"# a person who lives at the expense of another or others without making any useful contribution or return; hanger-on"

 

http://www.yourdictionary.com/parasite

Oh jeez. Is that where you're getting you're strange ideas? I submit that that definition is not referring to a fetus. It is referring to a lazy bum. I've a personal example of this definition. I have a 46 year old uncle who is still living with is 80 year old mother. He rarely works and he often steals money from her bank account. He is a "parasite" to her. The usage of that term is not literal. It is a figurative usage. Unless you think that a fetus can be a parasite to multiple people (note the use of 'or others' in the definition.

 

You need to focus on the third definition. As has already been explained earlier, a parasite is something of another species from the host. Also please note the use of "Biol". This definition is focused on the 'Biol'ogical use of the term.

Biol. a plant or animal that lives on or in an organism of another species from which it derives sustenance or protection without benefit to, and usually with harmful effects on, the host

[Outback Jack]

Nah, it's just a very beaten up horse. It's pretty much the same arguments, re-iterated. We have this debate about once or twice a year. It was about time anyway.

Well, this is my first one. I'm enjoying it greatly! And learning a lot.

[barbiebrains100]

My interuterine device will irritate the lining of my uterus so that the tiny person cannot implant itself. I will have absolutely NO idea how many fertilized eggs I flushed out from the moment I use the contraceptive until I decide to remove it. This is what it means to booby-trap your uterus....My uterus will have a land-mine awaiting the fertilized egg. Will my uterus be considered a concentration camp? Dachau for the fertilized egg? Let's outlaw IUDs, Morning After pills, and sentence women to forced gynecological exams in order to ensure the safety of the "person". Fucking fundie ridiculous. See, modern women under 40, they simply don't accept it. They have no conception of a world in which they don't have complete control over their flesh, their reproductive rights, their sexuality. For most women of this generation, reproductive choice is simply a fundamental, incontrovertible human right, obvious and ironclad and indisputable. Banning reproductive rights induces an immediate cringing recoil, like watching Tom Cruise stick his tongue in Katie Holmes' face, like watching flies feed, like seeing Dick Cheney naked. It simply does not compute.

[Ouroboros]

Well, this is my first one. I'm enjoying it greatly! And learning a lot.

Then you missed our huge discussion earlier this year. I think it spawned inside another topic though, and not a standalone thread like this.

[dance]

Describe the fetus as unwanted, as tragic, which it is. But please don't propose that conceptions of our unborn children must flicker between 'parasite' and 'baby.' Try telling a mother of 5 that her unwanted fetus is a parasite and see what she says. :/

 

Try arguing the point instead of semantics.

 

Asimov, I think you missed my point. Here it is: Since we value life, childbearing, family, parenting, we thus value life within the womb, be it unwanted or wanted. Your 'parasite' comment, however much a 'throwaway' statement, attempts to subvert that value. You're the one whose being arbitrary with semantics. Have you ever considered applying your "logic" to born children? They too are utterly dependent. If they're unwanted, will you deem them "parasites" as well? Don't be crass.

[Outback Jack]

Have you ever considered applying your "logic" to born children? They too are utterly dependent. If they're unwanted, will you deem them "parasites" as well? Don't be crass.

Interesting point but I can see an answer. One hour after it's born, it is a 'person' and cannot be killed. But I still fail to see how the same baby is a parasite one hour before it's born. The nature of the 'parasite' hasn't changed, just it's location.

 

Try this question - What is the status of the baby after is has left the womb but is still connected by the umbilical cord? By his definition, it's still feeding off the 'host' but its been born and is therefore a person.

 

Here's another interesting concept...

The nature of a wanted pregnancy is definitely not parasitic, because the benefit being received is that child itself. Even though the child physically changes a mother sometimes even to the point of long-term harm, if the mother wants to have the child, she can.

What to we call the unborn thing if the mother isn't sure if she wants to have it? Is it in some kind of limbo until the mother decides?

[HuaiDan]

Hey Dancemastad, why do you consider abortion any more tragic, than , say, burning dinner and having to throw it away?

 

Your application of artificial values to amoral situations lead us down a slippery fascist slope.

 

 

FYI I believe government or any institution has absolutely no say so in what a person does to his or her own body, and that includes tattoos, body art, disfigurement, drugs, steroids, organ removal, suicide, or anything else that involves one's own body.

 

 

Someone says fetus, and you visualize "baby". That's a bit delusional, in my opinion. A baby is not a fetus, and a fetus is not a baby, as long as we adhere to a 4 dimensional universe, which for the time being we have no choice but to.

[BiMamaFeminAtheist]

What I'm wondering is how do I justify my opinion that its a barbaric and immoral practice in a secular sense?

 

I'm a woman who learnèd that despite using birtg control I was 5 months pregnant. Actually my first clue was a weird kicking sensation in my middle. Lol. As my name suggests I'm now a mom. However, since nearly dying multiple times during pregnancy, having a 98 hour labor and struggling to provide for my family financially I've become prochoice, before leaving xtianity even.

 

Don't like abortion? Don't have one.