Vomit Comet Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 What is your opinion as to the existence of spirit(s)? I would define spirits as being agentive beings that are sentient (self-aware), and aware of us as well, who either exist on a seperate plane or exist in our world but in invisible/non-corporeal to us (most of the time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOxley_501 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 im not sure as a former exorcist it is really difficult for me to explain alot of the things i have seen and felt....but it doesnt make me believe that god exists...just the possibility of something metaphysical or otherwise "spiritual" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brought None Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Well of course spirits exist... you can buy them at any local Wine & Spirit stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 as a former exorcist it is really difficult for me to explain alot of the things i have seen and felt.... You too, eh? I'm in the same boat, and it perturbs me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 2, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted October 2, 2008 If you exorcists can provide any proof of the supernatural I would be grateful. I am not trying to challenge or be argumentative. I just want to understand what people who are involved in such things actually experience, and if there is any video, photos or audio authentication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOxley_501 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 If you exorcists can provide any proof of the supernatural I would be grateful. I am not trying to challenge or be argumentative. I just want to understand what people who are involved in such things actually experience, and if there is any video, photos or audio authentication. due to the sensitive nature of the cases of my clients photos and videos were strictly a no go...i wish i did have it though i do think, right now, that alot of it is emotion and letting that build up and manifest itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhia Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 For me, any type of supernatural is completely ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 2, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted October 2, 2008 due to the sensitive nature of the cases of my clients photos and videos were strictly a no go...i wish i did have it though i do think, right now, that alot of it is emotion and letting that build up and manifest itself... Obviously any "spirit" manifestation is emotional for the participants, and even mass hysteria can play a role. Unfortunately, there never seems to be any evidence other than what was seen and felt by witnesses. With professional mediums, the spirits won't show up or cooperate if there are cameras present. I try to keep an open mind because so many people swear these kinds of things are real, but after all this time and no tangible evidence yet it leans heavily toward bogus (deliberate or not) in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOxley_501 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 For me, any type of supernatural is completely ludicrous. i hope i can eventually say the same thing, i think there is still some sort of mental block that wont let me let go of my experiences on this one.... i really really hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderwire Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 For me, any type of supernatural is completely ludicrous. Yes, ma'am. No god, no devil, no angels, no demons. Never has been. Imaginary and dreamed up straight across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I am honestly not sure if there is anything other than the physical realm. There maybe, might, possibly be something else "out there", but I really just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhia Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 i hope i can eventually say the same thing, i think there is still some sort of mental block that wont let me let go of my experiences on this one.... i really really hope It took me quite a long time to be able to say it. My bio-mum was a wiccan who claimed I was an Indigo Child, and that she could see and talk to the dead; and when I was a Christian I was a Pentecostal. So yeah. I've basically been there, done that, and seen just about everything that's claimed to be out there. My qualifier for my deconversion was wanting God to show himself to me, but I didn't want a "vision" because I didn't want to later think that it was a dream or a hallucination. Don't worry about the mental block - when you're ready (if it's part of your belief or lack thereof), it'll sort itself out. Mine did when I realized I couldn't possibly go to Hell after I died. My brain controls everything - emotions, pain, knowledge, etc; and unless the contents of my brain are being copied and downloaded every night while I sleep, when I die, and my brain ceases to function, all of those will die with me. I applied that same logic to everything else supernatural. If there is no god, there is no satan. If there's no satan, there's no demons. If there's none of the above, there's no heaven, no hell, no angels, no ghosts, no monsters, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 2, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted October 2, 2008 For what it may be worth, here is a little insight on people's will to believe and the power of emotions. I have been a magician (the performing type) for over 40 years. I specialize in mentalism and bizarre effects. A friend and I developed some effects that elicited some unexpected reactions from the spectators/participants. A lady who was into all things New Age was the subject of a psychic experiment we conducted. She freely selected a Tarot card that was in a written prediction. That card vanished from the pack and appeared between the pages of a previously examined book of runes. She wasn't surprised at all that I knew in advance which card she would take, and that it transported itself from the pack into the book. What amazed her was the accuracy of the information on that page of the rune book. Imagine this effect: a spectator writes the names of four living people on the backs of business cards. On the fifth, she writes the name of someone she knows who has died. She mixes the cards and arranges them with the information face down. She herself holds a pendulum over each one in turn, and one card produces a different "swing" than the others. Four are turned over to show the names of the living. Without revealing the one she selected with the pendulum, I tell her the name of the dead person. People turn white, scream, and jump up from the table. They know I am a magician, but they also "know" there is no way this can be a trick. One more example. A word, sentence, name or number the spectator has in mind is written by the spirits on a blank paper inside a shoebox that has a small pencil enclosed with it. There is a string hanging out that is attached to the pencil and you can see it move as the message is written by the spirits inside the box. More than one person has left the room on that note. Interestingly, I have had people tell others what an amazing feat I showed them, and their description is so embellished it bears little resemblance to what actually happened. They themselves turn it into a miracle. I'm just sharing this to point out how much belief and expectation play into the creation of miracles and the supernatural. When the mood is set correctly, even normal, rational people suspend their disbelief and get chills. Those who already believe in the supernatural always want personal readings after such a demonstration, and often claim they felt a "presence" with a numbness in the extremities, a cold breeze in the room, or a cool, damp touch on their forehead or neck. Their own brains do most of the work. I see the same psychology at work in healing services (which I've witnessed) and exorcisms (which I've only seen in documentaries). In my observations, nothing ever occurred that couldn't be accounted for by strong belief and a fever pitch of emotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahjong Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 "Spirits that are agentive beings but that don't corrrespond with the good/evil dichotomy" I only believe because I have personally experienced. I don't think anyone else should believe if s/he has not had a personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Of course there is "something else" out there. Quantum physics proves that...we don't know everything. But what is that "something else" ? I have seen things that have brought me to the same conclusions as florduh - growing up as a skeptic in the midst of a community of believers has shown me just how much a bit of emotion and "wanting to believe" can let people take ridiculously simple scenario's and bloat it up beyond reason. Human beings simply cannot be trusted to give account's of the supernatural. Does that mean none of it is real ? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows, maybe there are a few people who claim to have experienced the supernatural that are sane and know what they are talking about, but assuming they exist there is simply no way to pick them out of the vast vast sea of morons. One thing that gets me is how people always assume the "other world" must be some eternal peace or eternal suffering. I find that retarded. If there is some sort of being ( as in, the deist God, not the christian Gawd. ) that rules this universe it is likely that any kind of spirit realm would be ruled with the same unfair randomness and chaos as the physical one. It's very unlikely that we have anything wonderful or "better" to look forward to after death afterlife or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 2, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted October 2, 2008 Jedah, you summed it up perfectly. Human beings can't be trusted to give factual accounts of the supernatural. It really is that simple, and the reason researchers and scientists don't accept anecdotal evidence. It is worthless. Every phenomenon that gets reported can be faked and/or self-generated in the mind of the experiencer. That doesn't absolutely rule out the possibility of real supernatural events, but we still have no evidence at all other than the unreliable personal experience. If any of it were real, one would think over thousands of years and millions of claimed experiences there would be at least one piece of reliable evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhoof Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I'm really not sure, but kinda/sorta/maybe? I like to think that I reason things logically, but some things do defy explanation. The house I grew up in had a number of unexplainable things happen in it. Things would get moved when no one else was in the house fairly often. Various things like a pair of shoes no longer where you left them, only to turn up in a very odd place. Or you put something on a table, leave the room and come right back to find it gone. Everybody in the family had it happen to them. Dunno. I certainly can't explain it. Mind reading is something entirely different though. And very real. My first hand account: I dated a girl (very briefly!) who could and did read my mind. She told me she could and I didn't buy a word of it. First she pulled a three digit number out of my head. (Okay, that was neat.) Then she told me what five digit number I was thinking of. (Alright, I'm impressed.) Then she told me what seven digit phone number I was thinking of. (At no point in time had she ever met any of my family. She didn't even know any extended family names. I thought of my Grandmothers phone number. There was no way she could have known that number.) Then she had me think of a name. I ran through a couple and landed on an old classmate with a very odd name. We used to tease him because of it. It sounded like it was straight out of a Dickens novel. Yeah, that weird. Without saying a word, she grabbed a pencil and wrote down his name. She only had one letter wrong. I broke up with her that night This girl lived 25 miles away and had moved to the area from even further, only a few years before I met her. There was no way she could have known the things she did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 2, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted October 2, 2008 Hoof, that would make me a believer. And I would run far away from her (after she gave me the winning lotto numbers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I answered that ghosts, if they exist, are "traces" more than anything. I have no proof and have never seen a "ghost" myself, but I'd think it was possible, just possible, that certain events, such as murders, battles, (and perhaps happier things) can set up certain vibrations which can be heard, seen, or felt by those sensitive to those vibrations. This perhaps explains why ghosts are frequently reported in places which have a long and rich history, whether that history be good or bad. Examples would include the Tower of London, various English and American Civil War battle sites, and the White House, to name but a few. Just my thoughts, and as I say, I have no experience whatever of psychic phenomena. Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOxley_501 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 when i was in the minsitry i remember referring to ghosts as familiar spirits. anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 when i was in the minsitry i remember referring to ghosts as familiar spirits. anyone else? Well, no, but all the tales I've read about "familiar spirits" often made me wonder why, if such beings could be conjured into existence by occult ceremonies, they were never put to any practical use. Why, if they were as powerful as fundamentalist christians claim they are, were/are they only ever used for parlour tricks such as foretelling the future (usually in the context of the Stock Market or the result(s) of some horse race) or making a nuisance of themselves by poltergeist activities, or enhancing some randy idiot's sex life? My goodness me, if I had the ability to raise such spirits, I'd have had a use for a whole platoon of them over the years. Road making, yard building, fencing and a variety of other menial tasks. And if they could mystically transport money from some bank manager's safe, well, I have to admit it, from time to time the temptation would've been very hard to resist! Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 pagan deities as metaphors. But I'm not sure that involves believing they exist. It's more like believing they can *mean* something I also ticked ghosts as 'traces' rather than real beings. Because I believe that sometimes people have genuine ghost experiences and I'm open to the idea that maybe intense emotional events could leave an impression that sensitive people might be able to pick up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Nope. No spooks or boogers of any kind. The mind is a powerful thing and still mostly a mystery. All seemingly "paranormal" events are self produced. Read up on The Amazing Randi or Penn and Teller's work for proof, or non-proof, as the case may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.god Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Imagine if you will, there I am, standing behind you as you sit in front of your computer reading this. You can almost feel my presence in the room with you, right behind you. But don't turn around and look! Even if you slowly turn your head to try to glimpse if there is anyone there, I will slowly shift around so you can't see me, but there I am. So close that you can feel the my cold breathing on your neck, as I slowly lean closer... and closer.. But then you remember.. I don't exist. Or do I? How exactly do I exist? How do I see, do I see like you do? Can you see me.. ever? Do I have wings? What do I have wings for if I am a spirit or an angel? I don't need wings to fly! Just like my demon friends don't need bat wings on this planet. We have powers beyond your grasp. But how do they work exactly? I don't know. If I am a "trace", what sort of trace am I? What do I leave behind, is it electrical energy that I travel by? Do I disrupt computer monitors, cause phones to ring with no one there, flicker the bathroom lights at night? Does that mean I can travel the internet as a signal? I am dead, yet I can think. Do I have memories, do I feel anything. How do my emotions work, what sort of energy am I? Why aren't there more of me, and why aren't we making a mess of this world. How many dimensions do you have posit until I can exist in any recognizable former human form? How, how how? If there were really ghosts and spirits in this world, I think this world would be a very strange place and the manifestations would be obvious and daily. If you were a spirit with all the "powers" that come with one, would you spend all your shaking things in some poor old lady's attic? Manifesting crappy, poor quality flickers on outdated photographic films? florduh, that's cool you worked as a magician. Have you seen this clip where Derren Brown hosts a seance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 None of the above but more accurately...No. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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