Dealing with the bible's hate speech

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

There are many parts of the bible that condone or even demand immoral acts. These include

 

- death for witches, homosexuals, dishonorable children, non-believers, etc.

- genocide for entire races of people

- discrimination against women and handicapped

- genital mutilation of children

- support of slavery

 

Yet, this book is given a place of honor in homes, given as gifts to children, read publically in pulpits across the world each week and broadcast on radio and TV to millions.

 

Many christians would agree that these acts that are called for or supported in the bible are immoral, yet do nothing to have them removed from their holy book.

 

It's my opinion that decent christians should rip these pages from their bibles. Should society go even further and classify the bible (or at least those verses) as hate speech?

 

I think christians, and even society at large has been led to believe that the bible is a good book - harmless at the very least. I think it's time to point out the evil in the bible and ask good christians why they aren't doing something about it.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

the book called "The Holy Bible" and believe in a deity that not only calls for the atrocities you listed but also that unbelivers are deserving of horrific punishment. 

I think this is the most disgusting thing about christianity. Most of its adherents tell us that every human is by nature so vile that we deserve to be tortured for eternity. If you told this to a child outside the religious context, you'd be considered a child abuser.

 

And, we're told that if we use our reason to determine whether or not there is a god, and come to the conclusion that the christian god doesn't exist, we're still damned.

 

So, christianity says:

 

- By nature you're vile and worthy of eternal and horrific punishment.

- Set aside the mechanism (reason) by which you make all other decisions in your life to determine if god exists. In other words, believe without justification.

 

Both are evil and poisonous ideas.

[Mythra]

I don't know how they reconcile it. I really don't.

 

There are just too many passages that they have to ignore.

 

Kill your kid because he failed to show the proper respect? And this comes directly from God?

 

Sorry. This book is nothing but worn out crapola.

[Vixentrox]

I don't know either. To think I was so fucking brainwashed into thinking these atrocious acts were somehow holy and good. Xtianity of ANY sort has at it's root the approval of monstorous deeds and a foul, evil beast of a god. And yet...they prance around in fantasy land thinking otherwise. And they all seem to have faith of LESS THAN A FUCKING MUSTARD SEED becuase they cant do miracles.

[Guest JP1283]

Yet when you bring up the atrocities in the OT, they just say "Well, that was the Old Testament. We're in different times." Like somehow, for the one sole reason that it's in the OT, it doesn't count. Do a lot of Christians fully believe in the Old Testament?

[Checkmate]

Yet when you bring up the atrocities in the OT, they just say "Well, that was the Old Testament.  We're in different times."  Like somehow, for the one sole reason that it's in the OT, it doesn't count.  Do a lot of Christians fully believe in the Old Testament?

 

I NEVER could understand the "we are NEW TESTAMENT Christians" ideology, versus the "we still believe in the OLD TESTAMENT" mentality. How do they reconcile the two thoughts?

 

They promote the "Ten Commandments", while simultaneously preaching "grace" and the END OF THE LAW. WTF????

 

For my money, the Gnostic Christians made more sense, as they rejected the OT "god" (the demi-urge) as inferior to the "revealed" god of the NT.

 

It's STILL all BS, but why cling to shit that's obviously wrong and evil?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Yet when you bring up the atrocities in the OT, they just say "Well, that was the Old Testament.  We're in different times."  Like somehow, for the one sole reason that it's in the OT, it doesn't count.  Do a lot of Christians fully believe in the Old Testament?

To those christians I would ask them why they would buy or use a book that contains such hateful material if they don't believe in it. It's possible to buy the NT without the OT.

 

Of course, the NT isn't free from hate either. There is support for slavery, discrimination against women, and more eternal hellfire for non-believers than there is in the OT.

[Guest Son of Belial]

The NT has just as much evil in it as the OT. There are places in the OT that are surprisingly liberal and forgiving. I remember one theory that there were two distinct gods in the OT, like in the story of Cain and Abel, that it was the evil version that liked the blood sacrifices but it the was good god that gave Cain the mark to protect him.

 

Not sure how realistic this theory is, but certainly there are both very compassionate parts and very sadistic parts. Instead of saying there were two secret gods, I just assume it was all written by different people with different agendas.

[LadyFeline]

The excuse I often get for this phenomenon is, "It was a different time - those thigns were acceptable back then. That doesn't mean they're acceptable now."

 

And then they go off spouting about how God hates gay people...

[Guest Son of Belial]

........ and tune in to happily watch the latest episode of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" or Will and Grace!  What hypocrisy!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Cos gay people are funny to watch, just sickening to be around.

 

(That's a Christian talking, not me.)

[dogmatically_challenged]

TFT, I am glad that you brought this topic up.  No matter how good or loving a Christian is they still uphold as gold, the book called "The Holy Bible" and believe in a deity that not only calls for the atrocities you listed but also that unbelivers are deserving of horrific punishment. 

 

No matter how many "nice" scriptures their are for "love", most of those scriptures are followed with that "love" only applying to biblegods people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far as I'm concerned any person who says that book is the werd of gawd or is decent for teaching morality is enabling the hateful activists xers. That book has power through belief in it.

[Totallyatpeace]

Hi, TFT.

 

I'm glad you started this thread too, though I'm hesitant to reply at this point. One of the things I decided to do when I came to India was set the New Testament aside and read as far as I could straight through the Old Testament. It's something I haven't done all at once and this seemed like a good opportunity. In the three weeks since I arrived, I have read from Genesis to II Kings. (I've been busy with other things, too. )

 

Anyway.......I must say that I have more questions than answers since I started reading without any outside influence, be it here or the other site. I have many questions but I know that this is not the place for me to ask my questions. I am a Christian and I need to get the Christian perspective for answers to my questions before I bring them up here.

 

The way I see it is that the overall picture the Bible presents is one that was based on law, with rules and rituals that were pointing and leading to Grace through the sending of Jesus Christ. I don't like what I'm reading in the Old Testament in many parts but I'm still going to see it in it's totality rather than verse by verse or story by story. If the total message fails......then there's a problem.

 

Anyway, I don't want to say more about what I'm reading and thinking at this time because I have much more to read. On that note.....I fly out tonight for America and so I won't be responding so please don't look at this post as a "post and run". However, until I've searched this out for myself such as I've been doing here in India.....there is really nothing more I have to say. Each person has to figure this out on their own. I'm asking God to show me the big picture.

 

I'll be back around on Monday of next week.

 

Thank you for starting this thread.

 

Tap

[Guest Son of Belial]

TAP, your decision to actually read the OT, straight through, without interference is a noble one. I commend you and am interested in your findings, when you finish.

[Merlinfmct87]

Yet when you bring up the atrocities in the OT, they just say "Well, that was the Old Testament.  We're in different times."  Like somehow, for the one sole reason that it's in the OT, it doesn't count.  Do a lot of Christians fully believe in the Old Testament?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

<rant>

 

You might wonder WHY we are in different times. It wasn't the religious fundamentalists that dragged us out of the dark ages. It wast the heretics, the humanists, atheists, infidels and innovaters that gave us the ideals we treasure(and, laughably, call 'god-given').

 

When Christianity took took over(and later utterly ruined) Rome, we got the Dark Ages. When thought and creativity and innovation finally was reborn, the inquisition was formed to counter it... then when even such a destructive force as that failed to silence the truth, they had the gall to take credit for it.

 

</rant>

 

Merlin

[Totallyatpeace]

<rant>

 

You might wonder WHY we are in different times. It wasn't the religious fundamentalists that dragged us out of the dark ages. It wast the heretics, the humanists, atheists, infidels and innovaters that gave us the ideals we treasure(and, laughably, call 'god-given').

 

When Christianity took took over(and later utterly ruined) Rome, we got the Dark Ages. When thought and creativity and innovation finally was reborn, the inquisition was formed to counter it... then when even such a destructive force as that failed to silence the truth, they had the gall to take credit for it.

 

</rant>

 

Merlin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Interesting perspective, my dear.

[Vixentrox]

Hi, TFT.

 

I'm glad you started this thread too, though I'm hesitant to reply at this point. One of the things I decided to do when I came to India was set the New Testament aside and read as far as I could straight through the Old Testament.  It's something I haven't done all at once and this seemed like a good opportunity.  In the three weeks since I arrived, I have read from Genesis to II Kings. (I've been busy with other things, too. )

 

Anyway.......I must say that I have more questions than answers since I started reading without any outside influence, be it here or the other site. I have many questions but I know that this is not the place for me to ask my questions. I am a Christian and I need to get the Christian perspective for answers to my questions before I bring them up here.

 

The way I see it is that the overall picture the Bible presents is one that was based on law, with rules and rituals that were pointing and leading to Grace through the sending of Jesus Christ. I don't like what I'm reading in the Old Testament in many parts but I'm still going to see it in it's totality rather than verse by verse or story by story. If the total message fails......then there's a problem.

 

Anyway, I don't want to say more about what I'm reading and thinking at this time because I have much more to read.  On that note.....I fly out tonight for America and so I won't be responding so please don't look at this post as a "post and run". However, until I've searched this out for myself such as I've been doing here in India.....there is really nothing more I have to say. Each person has to figure this out on their own.  I'm asking God to show me the big picture.

 

I'll be back around on Monday of next week.

 

Thank you for starting this thread.

 

Tap

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Be careful TAP. That contributed to a number of us being ex-Xtians including me. While I appluad what your doing, I hope your ready for the only outcome that can say your really a decent person. What god does and orders done are among the worst atrocities ever commited (if they happened at all). No sane/unbrainwashed person can read these things and think about "Love, joy, and compassion" when all there is appartent is hate, torture, spite, mavelance, and murder.

[Totallyatpeace]

I appreciate your perspective.

 

Tap

[bob]

I just read TFT's topic and emailed it to my girlfriend, who is a bible believing church-goer. I also emailed her this:

 

Romans chapter 1:

 

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

I await her response. If she condemns the Iranian's treatment of the gay teens, I will have many questions for her.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Hi, TFT.

 

I'm glad you started this thread too, though I'm hesitant to reply at this point. One of the things I decided to do when I came to India was set the New Testament aside and read as far as I could straight through the Old Testament.  It's something I haven't done all at once and this seemed like a good opportunity.  In the three weeks since I arrived, I have read from Genesis to II Kings. (I've been busy with other things, too. )

 

Anyway.......I must say that I have more questions than answers since I started reading without any outside influence, be it here or the other site. I have many questions but I know that this is not the place for me to ask my questions. I am a Christian and I need to get the Christian perspective for answers to my questions before I bring them up here.

 

The way I see it is that the overall picture the Bible presents is one that was based on law, with rules and rituals that were pointing and leading to Grace through the sending of Jesus Christ. I don't like what I'm reading in the Old Testament in many parts but I'm still going to see it in it's totality rather than verse by verse or story by story. If the total message fails......then there's a problem.

 

Anyway, I don't want to say more about what I'm reading and thinking at this time because I have much more to read.  On that note.....I fly out tonight for America and so I won't be responding so please don't look at this post as a "post and run". However, until I've searched this out for myself such as I've been doing here in India.....there is really nothing more I have to say. Each person has to figure this out on their own.  I'm asking God to show me the big picture.

 

I'll be back around on Monday of next week.

 

Thank you for starting this thread.

 

Tap

Have a safe trip home TAP. I look forward to hearing and discussing your thoughts on the OT when you get back.

 

Take a close look at Judges 19-20 - it's another story that really concerned me.

[Merlinfmct87]

Interesting perspective, my dear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What's your take on it? I'd be more than willing to discuss it with you. You bring your book, I'll bring mine .

 

Hugs,

 

Merlin

[trashy]

I remember one theory that there were two distinct gods in the OT, like in the story of Cain and Abel, that it was the evil version that liked the blood sacrifices but it the was good god that gave Cain the mark to protect him.  Not sure how realistic this theory is, but certainly there are both very compassionate parts and very sadistic parts. Instead of saying there were two secret gods, I just assume it was all written by different people with different agendas.

I've been reading "God Against the Gods: The history of the war between monotheism and polytheism" by Jonathan Kirsch. It's very eye-opening. The Egyptians are a good mirror to look at the Hebrews in. They had several periods where the current Pharaoh attempted to diminish the prevailing deities and raise one above the rest. It usually didn't last long, but during such periods an attempt was made to erase all writings and temples of the 'other' gods. A cursory examination of that period might yield the opinion that Egyptians were monotheistic but a broader study would show the opposite.

 

It is speculated that the Hebrews may have originated from one such period and left Egypt when polytheism was reinstated. The Bible is a much different read when you see the constant thread of polytheism vs. monotheism that runs throughout. This is a good source over at Infidels.org

[trashy]

I've been trying to remember how I used to explain away the atrocious events described in the OT. When Joshua took Jericho they "utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword." But the first attempt to take Ai failed since Achan had taken a Babylonian garment, 200 shekels of silver and fifty shekels of gold, "accursed things." So they put Achan and his sons and daughters and animals and his tent in a pile and burned them. Then God was happy again and let them kill all the men and women of Ai and Bethel but this time they got to keep some booty.

 

Now forget the New Testament and the difference between the age of law and the age of Grace......what about the freaking TEN COMMANDMENTS? What about "Thou shalt not kill"??? It's not like the armies of Jericho and Ai and Bethel came storming into the Israelite camp in the middle of the night, so forget about self-defense. It was just plain slaughter.

 

And here's an extra little bonus for ya......when Joshua was about to take Jericho he saw a man with a sword in his hand who told Joshua he was the Captain of the host of the Lord. Joshua worshiped him, and this man told him to remove his shoes for he was on holy ground. Most theologians accept this as one of the many 'Christophanies' -- meaning an appearance of the pre-incarnate Jesus. So now we have Jesus himself, before he became a man, standing side-by-side with Joshua, helping him slaughter all those women and children.

 

I just can't make that mesh with 'God is Love' at all.....

[shy1680]

Yet when you bring up the atrocities in the OT, they just say "Well, that was the Old Testament.  We're in different times."  Like somehow, for the one sole reason that it's in the OT, it doesn't count.  Do a lot of Christians fully believe in the Old Testament?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is the main reason Im no longer a Christian, I could NEVER say what happened in the O.T. was ok. For me its too much like a wife beater who beat his wife for 20 years just all of a sudden stop and then wants everyone to forget about his 20 years of abuse. Then tells everyone to blame her for making him mad. And then he tells her he will only beat her again if she does something to piss him off but she never gets a clear, complete set of rules on will piss him off.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I don't like what I'm reading in the Old Testament in many parts but I'm still going to see it in it's totality rather than verse by verse or story by story. If the total message fails......then there's a problem.

This "total message" approach seems erroneous to me.

 

First off, how do you determine what the total message is? Isn't that very subjective and open to personal interpretation?

 

More importantly, I don't understand how a large number of "positive" statements can cancel out evil, immoral ones.

 

Imagine I gave a one hour speech during which time I said almost exclusively wonderful things about people loving and helping one another. But, I also included brief statements such as "gays should be killed" and "women are really second-class", and "slavery is ok". Does the fact that I spent 55 minutes saying good things make the other statements OK? Does that make me someone you should listen to and follow? Should my entire speech be treated with honor and be given to children and be broadcast around the world?

[Checkmate]

This "total message" approach seems erroneous to me.

 

First off, how do you determine what the total message is?  Isn't that very subjective and open to personal interpretation?

 

More importantly, I don't understand how a large number of "positive" statements can cancel out evil, immoral ones. 

 

Imagine I gave a one hour speech during which time I said almost exclusively wonderful things about people loving and helping one another.  But, I also included brief statements such as "gays should be killed" and "women are really second-class", and "slavery is ok".  Does the fact that I spent 55 minutes saying good things make the other statements OK?  Does that make me someone you should listen to and follow?  Should my entire speech be treated with honor and be given to children and be broadcast around the world?

 

Excellent post, TFT! Couldn't have put it better myself! Kudos.