So Um... Why Don't The "devout" Xians Stick It Out?

[Mriana]

Aside from the brutality, all I can think of is the intellectual level Ex-Xians have and Xians can't compete because they don't have that level of thinking, but I might be wrong. Myself, I love a challenge, but I noticed the more intellectual response from Ex-Xians go unresponded to by Xians who come here and attempt evangelism.

 

I have noticed when Xians are challenged they beg-off, cop-out, or leave. Those Xians that are still here, and I know there still are some, might want to respond to this. Of course, Ex-Xians have their own ideas too, just as I do and stated above.

 

Now here's something else interesting... We only see Evangelicals. We have yet to read anyone say they are not. I know there are some Ex-Episcopalians here, even though they are a minority, who would love to debate someone on their level, but all too often many Xians who do come here are Evangelicals, like many of us are ex-Evangelicals or combination of ex-liberal Xians and ex-Evangelical, wanting to evangelize and are too chicken to actually debate us and maybe learn something. Personally, I'm waiting for someone to prove me wrong and not run out or cop out when challenged. All I can think of is that they are not intellectually competent enough or are too chicken, probably because they fear losing their "faith" if they accepted a challenge.

[florduh]

they fear losing their "faith" if they accepted a challenge.

 

That's exactly right.

 

They have been taught that wisdom is folly, the things of the world are evil, Satan is out to deceive them. To maintain the fantasy, two or three weekly indoctrination sessions are employed, and people, books, movies and television shows that don't spout 100% of the beliefs all the time are avoided. They need constant reinforcement to maintain the irrational belief, and something we might say could open a small chink that allows a little bit of light in. This can't be allowed, so honest discussion is impossible. Refer to my sig.

[DarthOkkata]

Well, liberal Christians tend to be more live and let live. Evangelicals tend to be more aggressive and seek out new members. It's like they're going for 'conversion' merit badges from Jesus scouts.

 

We don't get many liberal Christians because they tend to leave us alone. They aren't interested in discussing their faith with someone who doesn't believe.

 

It's something of an intellectual cowardice, but nothing major. Liberal Christians are Liberal because they prefer to be lazy about faith. Sure they believe it, but they'd rather not think about it, waste time and energy talking about it, or bother with going out of their way to recruit new members. Just a quirky quip about it, maybe an invitation, and attending service as little as they can get away with it without breaking any rules.

 

These aren't the kind of people who would come here for a discussion. Only Christians who want to show us how we're in error and save us from ourselves would really bother. Thus, we tend to attract the craziest of the crazy.

 

This is hostile ground, and it does take some balls to even show up here for a Christian. Well, aside from the post and run type. I've got to give the ones who stick it out and respond credit for that much at least. They aren't cowards.

 

It also might have to do with how Christian sites tend to respond to people like us. Our very existence insults them, so they Ban, ban, ban. They'd throw you off the internet all together if they could.

 

They'll even invite you, but the moment they realize you're not an easy pushover and idiot. You're gone.

 

I've yet to come across any religious type forums that I've lasted more than three or four posts. I'm not there ranting and raving. Most of them don't have a section like the Lion's Den, at least not that I've ever come across.

 

Offend their beliefs by having something that doesn't conform, or start looking like you might not be convinced that they're right, and you're just gone. The Hammer of Mod drops upon you.

 

They fear losing members and having outside ideas infiltrate their temples of mindset on the interwebs. They really actually fear it, and view opposing ideas as actual attacks and threats.

 

It's the persecution mentality that Christians instill in themselves. They constantly tell themselves they're being persecuted, and hear it from others within their faith.

 

It's self imposed delusion, beyond just the usual crap. Gives them a sense of excitement, makes them feel defensive, as if they have to protect and defend their ideas from harm.

 

They really don't notice or realize that they are the majority.

 

It's why they view themselves as if they are in some sort of war. It's a war in their own minds, agaisnt liberals and Atheists who want to harm their faith and defile their beliefs.

 

I could give shit one about harming someone's faith or defiling their beliefs. I'm just gonna make damn sure they can't shut me up.

 

It's a sort of 'I have to build a fortress around my inner temple walls' mentality that causes it. We don't really have that. They live their lives around it, they think it's incredulous and evil that we don't believe what they believe in.

 

If they don't think it's evil, they think it's, well, I don't want to say funny, but bemusing.

 

I'll give this as an example. I was with my Mother and she had to drop something off at the Church while I was going about to do some errands with her. We weren't staying, and I wasn't there to 'speak' to anyone. She knows better.

 

At any rate, I ran into the priest. He approached, asked who I was, and I told him. He knows my mother. He asked, "Where do you attend? I've never seen you here with her before."

 

I replied. "I'm an Atheist. I don't attend."

 

He chuckled and shook his head. "I'm sorry to hear that. You should think about your mother."

 

I replied. "Where do you get off laughing at me as if I'm the crazy one? You're the one who thinks there's an invisible man who lives in the sky. If anything, I'm the one who should be laughing and shaking his head."

 

His jaw dropped, he worked his mouth, and shuffled off looking irate and wounded.

 

Later I learned that the police had shown up a few minutes after we'd left to escort me off the property. They missed me, we were just there to drop a few things off. It had apparently embarrassed my mother 'to death'.

 

I didn't care, and still don't. She tried to make me feel guilty about it, but gave up. I discovered the truth when I was about 13 about my mother and women in general.

 

They will actually cycle through emotions, intentionally, until they find one that is effective. It's some sort of natural ability inherent in most women to do this convincingly. It doesn't impress me any longer.

 

I called my mother on it once when she was bawling and raining tears about my loss of faith. As soon as I pointed it out, she calmed down, went quiet, and glared at me in irritation for a few moments. I've got her stone pegged on it now. I can tell the difference between genuine emotion and the 'turning of the cycle' in all the women in my family, including my mother and sister. My sister's husband still hasn't figured it out yet.

 

My Grandmother used to do it to her, that's how I figured it out, and how to tell when it's being applied. I remember being around after the old woman had gotten her way using the tactic. As soon as Mom or one of my uncles was out of sight, she'd calm down and look very satisfied with herself.

 

At any rate, it's all about guilt in the end. The Evangelicals feel guilty for us, feel guilty when they can't convert us, and expect us to feel guilty for not believing in what they say, after all, they are trying to help us.

 

It's one big guilty circle jerk, and I've no interest in handing out a reach around, as it only encourages more.

 

I don't feel bad for them, I'm not sorry that I've made them feel bad, and I don't care if they beat themselves up over it later.

 

It's not my fault. I'm not responsible for anyone's emotional state but my own.

 

No one can insult you without your permission.

 

We only get Evangelicals here, because they're the only ones looking for Gold Stars from Jesus for 'helping' us, and yes, they really do expect us to feel guilty for not listening to them.

[Snakefoot]

Most evangelicals are fundies to one degree or another. As such, they are taught they are superior because "the spirit of Christ dwells within them." They are also taught that, when defending the faith/witnessing, the holey spook will tell them what to say. They also buy into the "whole armor of gawd" thing.

 

They then sally forth to dispatch evil and convert the heathen, thinking themselves invincible. I suspect most are taken aback when confronted with infidels that know scripture, babble history, etc. better than they or their pastors/teachers. No doubt when confronted with things they cannot resolve, they fall back on how smart the devil is and how easily he can trick them. Thus, they "depart from evil"--that would be us.

[Guest end3]

Aside from the brutality, all I can think of is the intellectual level Ex-Xians have and Xians can't compete because they don't have that level of thinking, but I might be wrong. Myself, I love a challenge, but I noticed the more intellectual response from Ex-Xians go unresponded to by Xians who come here and attempt evangelism.

 

I have noticed when Xians are challenged they beg-off, cop-out, or leave. Those Xians that are still here, and I know there still are some, might want to respond to this. Of course, Ex-Xians have their own ideas too, just as I do and stated above.

 

Now here's something else interesting... We only see Evangelicals. We have yet to read anyone say they are not. I know there are some Ex-Episcopalians here, even though they are a minority, who would love to debate someone on their level, but all too often many Xians who do come here are Evangelicals, like many of us are ex-Evangelicals or combination of ex-liberal Xians and ex-Evangelical, wanting to evangelize and are too chicken to actually debate us and maybe learn something. Personally, I'm waiting for someone to prove me wrong and not run out or cop out when challenged. All I can think of is that they are not intellectually competent enough or are too chicken, probably because they fear losing their "faith" if they accepted a challenge.

 

What questions do you have Mriana? Keep in mind I am a Holy Spirit kind of guy, but will try to let you enlighten me.

[Loren]

Aside from the brutality, all I can think of is the intellectual level Ex-Xians have and Xians can't compete because they don't have that level of thinking, but I might be wrong. Myself, I love a challenge, but I noticed the more intellectual response from Ex-Xians go unresponded to by Xians who come here and attempt evangelism.

 

I have noticed when Xians are challenged they beg-off, cop-out, or leave. Those Xians that are still here, and I know there still are some, might want to respond to this. Of course, Ex-Xians have their own ideas too, just as I do and stated above.

 

Now here's something else interesting... We only see Evangelicals. We have yet to read anyone say they are not. I know there are some Ex-Episcopalians here, even though they are a minority, who would love to debate someone on their level, but all too often many Xians who do come here are Evangelicals, like many of us are ex-Evangelicals or combination of ex-liberal Xians and ex-Evangelical, wanting to evangelize and are too chicken to actually debate us and maybe learn something. Personally, I'm waiting for someone to prove me wrong and not run out or cop out when challenged. All I can think of is that they are not intellectually competent enough or are too chicken, probably because they fear losing their "faith" if they accepted a challenge.

 

What questions do you have Mriana? Keep in mind I am a Holy Spirit kind of guy, but will try to let you enlighten me.

With the title of this thread and the full text of Mriana's post which you quoted above, you can still manage to say, "What kind of questions do you have?" ...and not be embarrassed?

 

*Walks away shaking head*

[Mriana]

they fear losing their "faith" if they accepted a challenge.

 

That's exactly right.

 

They have been taught that wisdom is folly, the things of the world are evil, Satan is out to deceive them. To maintain the fantasy, two or three weekly indoctrination sessions are employed, and people, books, movies and television shows that don't spout 100% of the beliefs all the time are avoided. They need constant reinforcement to maintain the irrational belief, and something we might say could open a small chink that allows a little bit of light in. This can't be allowed, so honest discussion is impossible. Refer to my sig.

 

Well if they are going to lose their faith, then why bother coming here to begin with?

 

What questions do you have Mriana? Keep in mind I am a Holy Spirit kind of guy, but will try to let you enlighten me.

 

Um... I do believe I asked the questions I wanted to ask. I see airplanes over your head.

 

 

With the title of this thread and the full text of Mriana's post which you quoted above, you can still manage to say, "What kind of questions do you have?" ...and not be embarrassed?

 

*Walks away shaking head*

 

What? You don't want to help those airplanes land?

 

DarthOkkata, I've had the pleasure of getting a post deleted because of what I said on an Episcopalian board. I wasn't banned, but I was warned. I haven't been there for quite a long while now. All I said was Archbishop Rowen Williams was a demented old fool for even suggesting Sharia in G.B. They didn't like it he did that, but it was calling him a demented old fool that got my post removed. Oh don't say nothing bad about the Archbishop! Oh no! What? Is he now God or something? I could poke fun at silly beliefs and alike, as long as it wasn't their own. I could say the virgin birth was myth. I don't believe in Zeus. etc etc etc But I couldn't say Rowen Williams is a demented old fool. *shaking head* Go figure.

[Thurisaz]

They [then] sally forth to dispatch evil and convert the heathen, thinking themselves invincible. I suspect most are taken aback when confronted with infidels that know scripture, babble history, etc. better than they or their pastors/teachers. No doubt when confronted with things they cannot resolve, they fall back on how smart the devil is and how easily he can trick them. Thus, they "depart from evil"--that would be us.

 

'zacly.

 

That is very nicely said on this page that perfectly nails it without too much sarcasm:

 

There are a number of "Bible Contradictions Solved" style books in print today, almost all written by fundamentalist / evangelical authors. During my years as a fundie, I was perfectly content to read such books and assume, without testing the assumption, that such books covered pretty much all of the objections to Scripture that had been raised over the centuries (or even just the last century). Further, because I was in agreement with the author's position from the outset, (we were both thinking ITB) I saw no need to critically analize any of the solutions being presented. In time, I came to believe that anyone who attacked the integrity of the Bible was either ignorant or being guided by the Devil. After all, defending the Bible was so easy!

What a blow it was when, for the first time, I read a book regarding Biblical contradictions as written by a non-Christian. Contradictions I had never heard of were being presented, and the arguments put forth were of far higher quality than I could have ever guessed they would be. After years of simplistic and filtered fundamentalist explainations, I was finally being introduced to REAL Biblical criticism. I was badly shaken by the experience. Further, when I retreated back to my safe, fundamentalist books, I discovered to my suprise that many of the contradictions mentioned in the non-Christian's book were not dealt with or even mentioned anywhere within the fundie literature. It was then that I began to realize just how much of an effect thinking ITB has on fundamentalism as a whole, and the degree to which it had effected me. I finally understood that the Bible did not live up to the claims I had made about it, and all my faith and prayers couldn't change that.

 

(ITB = morontheist "in the box" of dogma thinking)

[Loren]

What? You don't want to help those airplanes land?

You made me laugh! I had a vision of me on a grassy backwoods runway on a dark, foggy night, waiting to guide an expected airplane filled with relief supplies in for a safe landing. Then, I get the word that the plane coming in is a missionary plane and all they've got on board is Bibles. So I say to myself, "Hey, that pilot has the Holy Spirit for guidance. He doesn't need me.

 

So I turn off the flashlight batons, tuck them under my arm and head for the treeline to have a smoke while I wait for the fire-works.

 

Isn't the disconnect in end3's post interesting? Clearly, he's able to comprehend that you asked a question or some questions. But at the same time, he was somehow able to not see the questions which you so plainly asked. This pathological disconnect is always interesting for me to watch. Disgusting and disturbing, but interesting. When I was a Christian, I sure saw it a lot when I looked around at my fellow believers, and I was fascinated and disgusted by it then. It was actually one of the pervasive conditions within the "Body of Christ" which forced me to face facts about how spiritually incompetent and dishonest the bulk of Christians are. This is supposed to be someone who's guided in some way by God? And I'm supposed to want to be like that???

 

And the damned clergy are by far the worst!

 

One of the aspects of this that I find very telling is the usually precise targeting of the given Christian's blindness. "Nope, didn't happen to notice that one. Nah, didn't see that, either. Or that third thing. Just didn't happen to see it." Or that five-hundredth thing. But when I take all the things the Christian somehow manages to not see, it sure forms a coherent picture. Must be a total accident, right? Obviously, they know exactly what they're doing on some deep level and they've managed to keep themselves from seeing what they're doing.

 

When I was a Christian, I couldn't have disconnects like that. It was too plain to me that if I did that kind of thing, then I'd be lying and I still had enough fear of God to want to keep a sharp eye on stuff like that. That kind of careful situational assessment and decision making on a deep level for the purpose of deceiving myself and others would certainly make me morally culpable. I knew I'd have to answer to God for it some day, and there wouldn't be any getting off the hook. Of course, taking my religion seriously enough to refuse to compartmentalize like that forced me to face facts about the whole religion and the rest, as they say, is apostasy.

[Thurisaz]

One of the aspects of this that I find very telling is the usually precise targeting of the given Christian's blindness. "Nope, didn't happen to notice that one. Nah, didn't see that, either. Or that third thing. Just didn't happen to see it." Or that five-hundredth thing. But when I take all the things the Christian somehow manages to not see, it sure forms a coherent picture. Must be a total accident, right? Obviously, they know exactly what they're doing on some deep level and they've managed to keep themselves from seeing what they're doing.

 

You know, there's a perfect definition for that...

 

...all hail Orwell!

[Franko47]

they fear losing their "faith" if they accepted a challenge.

 

That's exactly right.

 

They have been taught that wisdom is folly, the things of the world are evil, Satan is out to deceive them. To maintain the fantasy, two or three weekly indoctrination sessions are employed, and people, books, movies and television shows that don't spout 100% of the beliefs all the time are avoided. They need constant reinforcement to maintain the irrational belief, and something we might say could open a small chink that allows a little bit of light in. This can't be allowed, so honest discussion is impossible. Refer to my sig.

 

 

 

Heh. Just think if we adopted the "rules" of the BibleChristian thinking into our law courts. Wouldn't that be grand ? "I know in my heart that you're guilty; even though we have no evidence..."

 

 

Of course, no BibleChristian would ever agree that such a thing would be a good idea. One wouldn't want their fate and judgement to depend on anything but strong, clear, evidence, logic, and objective reality.

 

Would they ?

[Mriana]

What? You don't want to help those airplanes land?

You made me laugh! I had a vision of me on a grassy backwoods runway on a dark, foggy night, waiting to guide an expected airplane filled with relief supplies in for a safe landing. Then, I get the word that the plane coming in is a missionary plane and all they've got on board is Bibles. So I say to myself, "Hey, that pilot has the Holy Spirit for guidance. He doesn't need me.

 

So I turn off the flashlight batons, tuck them under my arm and head for the treeline to have a smoke while I wait for the fire-works.

 

Isn't the disconnect in end3's post interesting? Clearly, he's able to comprehend that you asked a question or some questions. But at the same time, he was somehow able to not see the questions which you so plainly asked. This pathological disconnect is always interesting for me to watch. Disgusting and disturbing, but interesting. When I was a Christian, I sure saw it a lot when I looked around at my fellow believers, and I was fascinated and disgusted by it then. It was actually one of the pervasive conditions within the "Body of Christ" which forced me to face facts about how spiritually incompetent and dishonest the bulk of Christians are. This is supposed to be someone who's guided in some way by God? And I'm supposed to want to be like that???

 

And the damned clergy are by far the worst!

 

One of the aspects of this that I find very telling is the usually precise targeting of the given Christian's blindness. "Nope, didn't happen to notice that one. Nah, didn't see that, either. Or that third thing. Just didn't happen to see it." Or that five-hundredth thing. But when I take all the things the Christian somehow manages to not see, it sure forms a coherent picture. Must be a total accident, right? Obviously, they know exactly what they're doing on some deep level and they've managed to keep themselves from seeing what they're doing.

 

When I was a Christian, I couldn't have disconnects like that. It was too plain to me that if I did that kind of thing, then I'd be lying and I still had enough fear of God to want to keep a sharp eye on stuff like that. That kind of careful situational assessment and decision making on a deep level for the purpose of deceiving myself and others would certainly make me morally culpable. I knew I'd have to answer to God for it some day, and there wouldn't be any getting off the hook. Of course, taking my religion seriously enough to refuse to compartmentalize like that forced me to face facts about the whole religion and the rest, as they say, is apostasy.

 

lol Well... Guess there will be another pilot charged with neglecting his duties because he prayed. Nothing fails like prayer.

 

What is weird is he missed the most obvious question of all- the title. I never could think in such a manner in which I disconnected completely like that.

 

I didn't fear God when I was an Xian. I feared Fundies. Liberal Xians were fine, but I would get very uneasy and uncomfortable with Fundies. I've always been on guard with them, although I think I am getting a little bit better about that. By Fundie standards, I've never been an Xian, but by liberal standards I was. I think the difference that caused me not to believe is that I wanted to learn, study, and know what I did and/or didn't believe, what is believable and what is not and they say the fastest way to disbelief is to actually study it.

 

There is nothing like having a belief that wasn't yours to begin with and not wanting it because it is so morbid, yet needing to be sure for oneself that it can be discarded without consequences. When Fr. Tom Harper said it was a great shock to discover Jesus never existed and another person said it was like a lightening bolt (interview podcast with Abraxas), I thought "I want that", but didn't think I'd get it. I kept researching and studying. I got it and while I would never force anyone to believe JC never existed, it ceases to amaze me these people pop in here, say bizarre things, can't back those things up, and then when the going gets tough, they book it out of here.

 

I can do all that work to figure out and know for sure what I believe or rather don't believe, yet they make outlandish statements and can't back them up or debate anything concerning the matter. It makes no sense. Thus why I'm wondering, "Why is that?" They start it, but they can't finish it. They have to run when the going gets tough. Maybe if they stuck it out and had some educated, rational, and logical responses, they might learn a few things in return. Maybe they would learn to critic religion more rationally. Who knows. It's obvious they didn't come to learn anything though, so why should I expect any of them to want to learn anything. IF they wanted to learn, they probably wouldn't be reading apologetics and alike material.

 

Oh wait. Sorry. I didn't mean to rant, but it does get tiresome when people start something and then run like chickens who are in fear of having their heads chopped off.

[OpheliaGinger]

*Recovering my former Xian mind*

 

They come here thinking they have the very thing that will turn us all back to Xian and then leave because expecting us to mull over their info.

[Abiyoyo]

Aside from the brutality, all I can think of is the intellectual level Ex-Xians have and Xians can't compete because they don't have that level of thinking, but I might be wrong. Myself, I love a challenge, but I noticed the more intellectual response from Ex-Xians go unresponded to by Xians who come here and attempt evangelism.

 

I have noticed when Xians are challenged they beg-off, cop-out, or leave. Those Xians that are still here, and I know there still are some, might want to respond to this. Of course, Ex-Xians have their own ideas too, just as I do and stated above.

 

Now here's something else interesting... We only see Evangelicals. We have yet to read anyone say they are not. I know there are some Ex-Episcopalians here, even though they are a minority, who would love to debate someone on their level, but all too often many Xians who do come here are Evangelicals, like many of us are ex-Evangelicals or combination of ex-liberal Xians and ex-Evangelical, wanting to evangelize and are too chicken to actually debate us and maybe learn something. Personally, I'm waiting for someone to prove me wrong and not run out or cop out when challenged. All I can think of is that they are not intellectually competent enough or are too chicken, probably because they fear losing their "faith" if they accepted a challenge.

 

I have been around for quite some time now Mriana. I don't understand you logic here. Some consider me heretical though

[DarthOkkata]

Yes, but you're the exception, and not the rule so to speak.

 

Generally, most believers don't stay long, and retreat with their tails between their legs rather quickly after only a thread or two of punishment.

 

I don't know if I'd call you heretical, but perhaps a bit of a sadist.

 

We like having a Christian opinion about, and you're not the first to hang out at length.

 

Generally though, it's pretty much as described in the thread here.

[Loren]

I kept researching and studying. I got it and while I would never force anyone to believe JC never existed, it ceases to amaze me these people pop in here, say bizarre things, can't back those things up, and then when the going gets tough, they book it out of here.

 

I can do all that work to figure out and know for sure what I believe or rather don't believe, yet they make outlandish statements and can't back them up or debate anything concerning the matter. It makes no sense. Thus why I'm wondering, "Why is that?" They start it, but they can't finish it. They have to run when the going gets tough. Maybe if they stuck it out and had some educated, rational, and logical responses, they might learn a few things in return. Maybe they would learn to critic religion more rationally.

Or at least get some respect from us. With all the other very true things that have been pointed out in this thread, I think that one of the things that often scares them off is that interacting with people like us forces them into a position where they must take responsibility. And one of the most psychologically effective selling points of the cult is that it offers so many ways, from sleazy, obvious and obtuse to very subtle for Christians to not take responsibility, particularly for their own doctrines. That particular aspect is understandably attractive to certain (pun intended) personality types. They don't have to do any of the work. It's been done for them. It's spoon-fed to them and it's predigested, so they don't even have to do the work of chewing. Along with the spoon feeding, their egos are massaged by the feeders who tell them that, "This is the meat of the Word, because you're so mature in your faith."

 

Then, as Thor noted in his post, they're handed or, more likely, "encouraged" to purchase some idiotic little pamphlet with a title such as;

 

The Six So-called Contradictions In The Bible

And How To Respond

So That Critics Will Shut The Fuck Up

and Acknowledge Your Superior Intellect

And Godliness.

 

Included in this timeless, insightful and challenging book are answers to such questions as:

 

Where did Cain get his wife?

 

Why is there suffering?

 

and

 

Where did Cain get his wife?

 

Then, thinking that they're well equipped for !!spiritual warfare!! because the lying sack of shit damned preacher whose job it is to do so told them that they are, they come in here and meet up with us. And with all of our diversity, one of the most consistent of commonalities we have is that the basic thing which drove us to really examine our beliefs and doctrine was that we came to a point where we simply couldn't not take responsibility and continue to live with ourselves and sleep well at night.

[Mriana]

I have been around for quite some time now Mriana. I don't understand you logic here. Some consider me heretical though

 

Dear, you haven't seen heresy yet! Unless you have been to the other thread and read my post in response to yours. If you don't know the actual meaning of the word, you will soon learn.

 

Loren said:

 

Or at least get some respect from us. With all the other very true things that have been pointed out in this thread, I think that one of the things that often scares them off is that interacting with people like us forces them into a position where they must take responsibility. And one of the most psychologically effective selling points of the cult is that it offers so many ways, from sleazy, obvious and obtuse to very subtle for Christians to not take responsibility, particularly for their own doctrines. That particular aspect is understandably attractive to certain (pun intended) personality types. They don't have to do any of the work. It's been done for them. It's spoon-fed to them and it's predigested, so they don't even have to do the work of chewing. Along with the spoon feeding, their egos are massaged by the feeders who tell them that, "This is the meat of the Word, because you're so mature in your faith."

 

I know. They don't seem to like taking responsibility for their actions. I wouldn't call them mature either- at least not in things outside of their delusion. It is sad that so many churches play on the psychological needs of the human and even corrupt the fulfillment of those needs in abusive manners.

[Snakefoot]

I wonder when the bit about being turned over to a "reprobate mind" kicks in.

[Mriana]

I have no clue. So many have not studied or read anything outside of canon much less outside of Xianity.

[Guest end3]

To tell you the truth as I perceive it Mriana, your initial post came across as condescending. If what you suppose is accurate, that this group of non-believers are more intelligent than an average believer, then there you are.

 

In answer to your question, the book itself says we only see in part, so why would it be possible for any Christian to know all the answers to the rhetorical BS that is spewn at them?

 

In your "real" world, it would take me less than 15 seconds to ask a question about this physical universe or perhaps the makeup of your kitchen table that you could not answer in your blessed lifetime.

 

My suggestion would be, take your "knowledge" and put it to good use.....emphasis on GOOD.

 

And btw, by the number of posts you have, doesn't look as though you have "challenged" much.

[Badger]

We only get Evangelicals here, because they're the only ones looking for Gold Stars from Jesus for 'helping' us, and yes, they really do expect us to feel guilty for not listening to them.

Well, then I guess I'm not Evangelical.

[chefranden]

Aside from the brutality, all I can think of is the intellectual level Ex-Xians have and Xians can't compete because they don't have that level of thinking, but I might be wrong.

 

You are generally wrong. You may be able to make the argument against a few of the recent Christians. However, we have had the occasional Christian, like End, who puts up with our vitriol and tries to make a point or two. The board has many angry Ex's who take out their anger on passing Christians. Just like any other person, one doesn't usually like to hang out where one is not wanted.

 

As a Christian I wouldn't have worried about loosing my faith. I didn't think it was possible to loose it at the time. I was wrong of course, but I didn't know it. As a Christian, I would have enjoyed this site as a challenge for awhile. After seeing the hardness of your hearts though, I would have eventually left and shaken the dust off my sandals.

 

If you want Christians to stay you have to cultivate them. Antlerman is good at doing this. I used to do it, but I'm getting more cantankerous in my old age.

[DarthOkkata]

After that post End, you've got no room calling others condescending.

 

You're just standing in a glass house tossing stones doing that.

 

As if post count has anything to do with how valid someone's arguments are, or how much they've discussed the issues with others. What would you know of it?

Not all of us spend our days hanging around here making constant posts, and some of us haven't been here long enough, or often spend long periods lurking, to accrue such a mighty post load as yours.

 

That doesn't make our posts less valid, or us less intelligent and less skilled at posing our arguments.

 

It was a cheap shot that proves nothing and just makes you look bad saying it.

 

Your argument is also childish. So what if you can ask us a question we can't answer?

 

At least we have the balls to say 'I don't know' as opposed to just putting the 'God did it' band aid over the issue and ignoring it.

 

Our path is the way to find out what the answer to the unanswerable questions are, even though it might not happen in our lifetimes, the fact that 'God did it' isn't viewed as an answer means that we'll at least try to find the answer and not ignore it because the non answer anti intellectual cowardice of 'God did it' explained it for us all we needed.

 

Philosophy does not provide facts, and cannot give true answers to such questions. It's only an exploration and attempt to gain understanding of the human condition, not the human environment, and it is not a way to find the answers to the questions of the universe. That's what Science is for.

 

Philosophy has it's place, but it's not there to replace Science.

 

I'm sure I can ask plenty of questions you can't answer as well. Not without invoking the magic God band aid that only gives a vague and irrelevant sheet to cover the problem with until someone smarter comes along to lift it up and actually clean the mess up as opposed to just sweeping it under a philosophical rug.

 

You're right, we can't answer every question posed. At least we have the intellectual integrity to admit it. Christians [not all, but a majority of them in my experience] don't have that integrity. They simply claim 'God did it', and act as if the question is completely explained and answered satisfactorily.

 

That's not intellectual at all, but lazy and avoids the real answer while evading the issue or problem posed by not helping to discover the true solution.

 

In fact, there are many cases, both in past and present, where it has gotten in the way of finding out the real facts and getting a real answer. The Christian belief system often deliberately gets in the way of real progress and answers to protect it's own interests and promote it's own world view. It often feels threatened by real answers, and makes intentional attempts to discredit and hide the truth.

 

There are plenty of examples of this in the past, just look at Galileo, or more recently, Creationism as evidence of this. There are plenty of other examples as well. Christianity has historically done more harm to progress and intelligence than good. It prefers ignorant members as opposed to intelligent ones.

 

It views the planet as a disposable commodity, and that the end of it is a good thing that all believers should look forward to.

 

It's dangerous and disgusting the way it impedes actual knowledge in favor of outdated dogma. It fears change, and fights it despite often knowing that it's wrong.

 

Calling Christianity a path to knowledge is like calling NAMBLA an advocate for children's rights.

[Mriana]

OK I'll admit, I've only seen a very small handful of Xians and the few that stick around, I suspect they might have questions of their own or they would not stick round. What better place to be if you one has questions about what they believe? They might not have an ulterior motive like the ones that come and go. Their only reason for being here is to just ask questions. That I can deal with.

[Guest end3]

Our path is the way to find out what the answer to the unanswerable questions are, even though it might not happen in our lifetimes, the fact that 'God did it' isn't viewed as an answer means that we'll at least try to find the answer and not ignore it because the non answer anti intellectual cowardice of 'God did it' explained it for us all we needed.

 

I don't believe I beat up anyone's path, did I Darth.

 

As for the rest of your post, I am pleased you have found an answer/path that works for you.