So Um... Why Don't The "devout" Xians Stick It Out?

[bdp]

There's no dearth of anything, Ray, you just don't get it is all.

[NotBlinded]

Wassup, y'all?

 

First, let me state categorically state that I have never said that non-Christians cannot (or often 'do not') lead happy lives, and even lives that bear some level of good fruit. What I have said is that non-Christians cannot lead a life that ultimately provides any sense of lasting value or any significance. But especially, that is true for atheists - because by their own admission, they claim that life is simply an amalgamation of physical processes and chance chemical collisions/interactions with no guidance/direction/goals/purposes/etc - so I'm just stating exactly what they themselves adamantly posit as obvious reality. As anyone knoews, no ultimate goal = no meaningful purpose. Atheists simply need to think thru their beliefs and be honest; and I find that mnay do not apply themselves to this.

ray, you are assumming again. No, not everyone knows that no ultimate goal = no meaningful purpose. That is not that case and it is evident even in the essay you quoted, which I'll get to below.

 

Is there a goal when you dance? Is there a goal when listen to music? Is there a goal when you are enjoying life? You are just stating your point of view of reality and projecting what you see as the consequences to not following your own belief system. It has nothing to do with atheists at all.

 

Let's take an extreme example for means of conversation. A tribal witch doctor will often be happy. He has the respect of the tribal community, the ear of the tribal chieftain re: local politics, the money from his practice of hiring himself out to heal diseases, or cast spells, or remove spells, etc. He/she and their family are happy and content with their position and prosperity. And I submit that many of the tribal people would also be generally happy within this system, though occasionally unhappy by being the victim of a spell or curse. Now - would we all want to encourage this lifestyle???? Would we want to help maintain this system???

Not any more than I would want the curse of a literal hell instilled in children's minds. This is a spell in itself because it causes suffering for the one that believes it to be true. This is how all curses work ray.

 

Or would we, when we came upon this established social system, seek to educate these people as to the absolute lie behind this system - and we would seek to work with them to change their 'spiritual philosophy' in order to deliver them out of this abusive system???

And that would be what? Change it to what? Another system that curses their people in a more sneaky way?

 

So, what good is this happiness? It's based on a lie, on some taking advantage of the suffering of others, on promulgating a status quo for personal gain, etc.

That doesn't sound familiar in your own faith system at all? This is exactly what missionaries do.

 

Also, consider that we all live in Western societies that have centuries of Christian underpinnings which have generated civil communities with many advantages. I suggest that atheists travel to inland Africa, inland China, central Asia, many parts of the Arab world, many US inner-city settings, etc - and see what 'happy & meaningful' lives people are living. This insistence that non-Christians can live 'good & fruitful' lives fails to recognize that the overall justice and opportunities in the West are owed to Christian foundations which have provided for our advantages. And this failure is simply dishonest, and inexcusable.

 

So when you insist that you can live happy and fruitful lives on your own terms - put yourself in a village in Chad, or Armenia, or Chechnya, or Egypt, or China/Tibet, or the south side of Chicago >> and live out your life to your liking. I submit that you'll be quickly squashed!

So, you want to hand out the security blanket of Christianity? Giving hope for the future...after death? Wow, that really helps. It might help them live in acceptance, but it won't help them try to find meaning in the situation they are in...which is the only place meaning can be found.

 

The absolute lack of cogent thought on this site is truly amazing - you all posit yourselves as thoughtful people who've arrived at your current philosophy of life from a scientific, well thought-out, reasoned process. And yet - the sheer ignorance of history, of sociology, of science - I'm continually befuddled by the dirth of functioning synapses.

As I am with yours.

Note this following quote from the prominent German philosopher, Schopenhauer;

"In a world where all is unstable, and nought can endure, but is swept onwards at once in the hurrying whirlpool of change; where a man, if he is to keep erect at all, must always be advancing and moving, like an acrobat on a rope—in such a world, happiness in inconceivable. How can it dwell where, as Plato says, continual Becoming and never Being is the sole form of existence? In the first place, a man never is happy, but spends his whole life in striving after something which he thinks will make him so; he seldom attains his goal, and when he does, it is only to be disappointed; he is mostly shipwrecked in the end, and comes into harbor with masts and rigging gone. And then, it is all one whether he has been happy or miserable; for his life was never anything more than a present moment always vanishing; and now it is over."

 

I recommend the entire essay:

 

On the Vanity of Existence.

Finally something of substance from your post.

 

Do you have any idea what this is and what it means at all? Obviously not, or you wouldn't be using it to promote your own position. Schopenhauer drew heavily from Eastern religions ray. He is talking about life as an expression of the will as being goal-oriented. We are seeking something from the future. This is "desiring" in Buddhism. This is looking towards heaven as one's goal. All this causes suffering. This is what the man is saying ray...the fulfillment of desire is impossible! When you look to the future to fulfill you, you will be disappointed.

 

One becomes bored when not striving for something and then life is seen as empty because you don't know what to do with existence itself. This is representing a state of mind...a mind like yours. One that is in constant desire, or goal-oriented. You then see life without goals as being empty. He is describing you ray.

 

"Whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse." Isaac Asimov

 

What are your goals in heaven going to be ray?

 

Sheesh...I think you are the one who's synapses aren't working.

 

Maybe you should read it again?

[agnosticator]

...see what 'happy & meaningful' lives people are living. This insistence that non-Christians can live 'good & fruitful' lives fails to recognize that the overall justice and opportunities in the West are owed to Christian foundations which have provided for our advantages. And this failure is simply dishonest, and inexcusable.

 

So when you insist that you can live happy and fruitful lives on your own terms - put yourself in a village in Chad, or Armenia, or Chechnya, or Egypt, or China/Tibet, or the south side of Chicago >>

 

Note the bolded, where many christians live based on your christian foundations.

 

 

Note this following quote from the prominent German philosopher, Schopenhauer;

<SNIP>How can it [happiness]dwell where, as Plato says, continual Becoming and never Being is the sole form of existence? In the first place, a man never is happy, but spends his whole life in striving after something which he thinks will make him so; he seldom attains his goal, and when he does, it is only to be disappointed;

 

Happiness is not found in arriving at goals, but in the process and involvement in human activities (being rather than becoming). Your goal is heaven with Jesus. The disappointment awaits you.

[agnosticator]

One becomes bored when not striving for something and then life is seen as empty because you don't know what to do with existence itself. This is representing a state of mind...a mind like yours. One that is in constant desire, or goal-oriented. You then see life without goals as being empty. He is describing you ray.

 

"Whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse." Isaac Asimov

 

What are your goals in heaven going to be ray?

 

Sheesh...I think you are the one who's synapses aren't working.

 

I'm bored reading Ray's post.

[centauri]

This insistence that non-Christians can live 'good & fruitful' lives fails to recognize that the overall justice and opportunities in the West are owed to Christian foundations which have provided for our advantages. And this failure is simply dishonest, and inexcusable.

Before you can label anything dishonest you first have to define your parameters.

Specifically, what Christian foundations are responsible for justice and opportunities in the West?

Where did Jesus promote democracy and the establishment of a representative republic rather than an authoritarian dictatorship based on divine decree?

Where does the New Testament promote religious diversity and self-determination rather than commanding people to strictly observe and be subservient to the divine right of kings?

Where does Christianity promote capitalism and the acquisition of private property rather than communism and distribution of wealth through a central authority?

[RiverDale]

Gee Ray, how many folks on here do you suppose think you are any different than the tribal witch doctor you gave as an example? Maybe you should try something other than that.

[Creepy Doll]

First, let me state categorically state that I have never said that non-Christians cannot (or often 'do not') lead happy lives, and even lives that bear some level of good fruit. What I have said is that non-Christians cannot lead a life that ultimately provides any sense of lasting value or any significance. But especially, that is true for atheists - because by their own admission, they claim that life is simply an amalgamation of physical processes and chance chemical collisions/interactions with no guidance/direction/goals/purposes/etc - so I'm just stating exactly what they themselves adamantly posit as obvious reality. As anyone knoews, no ultimate goal = no meaningful purpose. Atheists simply need to think thru their beliefs and be honest; and I find that mnay do not apply themselves to this.

 

For real?

[NotBlinded]

Happiness is not found in arriving at goals, but in the process and involvement in human activities (being rather than becoming). Your goal is heaven with Jesus. The disappointment awaits you.

Thank you for saying succinctly what I tried myself to say by blabbing on and on!

[NotBlinded]

One becomes bored when not striving for something and then life is seen as empty because you don't know what to do with existence itself. This is representing a state of mind...a mind like yours. One that is in constant desire, or goal-oriented. You then see life without goals as being empty. He is describing you ray.

 

"Whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse." Isaac Asimov

 

What are your goals in heaven going to be ray?

 

Sheesh...I think you are the one who's synapses aren't working.

 

I'm bored reading Ray's post.

Well, sometimes some human activities do get a little boring!

[agnosticator]

Happiness is not found in arriving at goals, but in the process and involvement in human activities (being rather than becoming). Your goal is heaven with Jesus. The disappointment awaits you.

Thank you for saying succinctly what I tried myself to say by blabbing on and on!

 

It ain't you who's doin' da babblin'! Ray does it quite well by himself.

[rayskidude]

ray, you are assumming again. No, not everyone knows that no ultimate goal = no meaningful purpose. That is not that case and it is evident even in the essay you quoted, which I'll get to below. Is there a goal when you dance? Is there a goal when listen to music? Is there a goal when you are enjoying life? You are just stating your point of view of reality and projecting what you see as the consequences to not following your own belief system. It has nothing to do with atheists at all.

 

The only thing I'm assuming is that people have common sense. But since you think that meaningful purpose is possible in the absence of an ultimate goal - well then, please state youe example.

 

My goal in everything is to glorify God - which can happen from even the mundane things in life.

1Co 10:29 ... For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience?

1Co 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

1Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 

When I dance and listen to music and enjoy life - I glorify God by experienceing and enjoying that which He has given us to enjoy. SO my thanks return to Him for providing the cause for enjoyment. Now, I don't say I'm always consciously in this attitude - I can certainly enjoy God's blessings without giving thought to His generosity - but I try to train myself to think Godward throughout my day.

 

But for any who never consider God - or are training themselves to think He doen't exist - well then, this life is the best you'll ever experience. Have at it. But for the believer, this life is the worst we'll see, because the glories of heaven will be explored and studied and experienced and all done in the very Presence of the God of the universe, who is amazing beyond all measure. The thought of heaven being boring - well that's simply the product of an unimaginative mind. Because the Bible is replete with examples and indications of the richness of the heavenly life lived out in glorified bodies, unhinderd by indwelling sin.

 

rayskidude' date='16 December 2009 - 07:47 AM' timestamp='1260971278' post='514960']Or would we, when we came upon this established social system, seek to educate these people as to the absolute lie behind this system - and we would seek to work with them to change their 'spiritual philosophy' in order to deliver them out of this abusive system???

 

And that would be what? Change it to what? Another system that curses their people in a more sneaky way? That doesn't sound familiar in your own faith system at all? This is exactly what missionaries do.

 

Really, that's what missionaries do when they set up health clinics and hospitals, schools, food pantries for the poor, literacy classes, clinincs to address women's health issues, and churches? They're just putting a sneaky little system to deliver Christian curses? When's the last time you visited a missionary? And did you have the honesty to tell them they were "just setting up a sneaky curse system?" How did they respond to your assessment?

 

How is repentance from all sin, and turning by faith to Jesus the Messiah - to be like Him in His sacrificing love, forgiveness, mercy, and generosity - how is this sneaky? No one is compelled to believe - each person is a free moral agent. And in fact, most missionaries experience few conversions as a percentage of the populations they serve.

 

rayskidude says - So when you insist that you can live happy and fruitful lives on your own terms - put yourself in a village in Chad, or Armenia, or Chechnya, or Egypt, or China/Tibet, or the south side of Chicago >> and live out your life to your liking. I submit that you'll be quickly squashed!

 

So, you want to hand out the security blanket of Christianity? Giving hope for the future...after death? Wow, that really helps. It might help them live in acceptance, but it won't help them try to find meaning in the situation they are in...which is the only place meaning can be found.

 

Wow, so meaning can only be found in this life? That's it? And to live each day in this life for God's glory, to live in joy for the heavenly future, and the joy in our present relationships, and the joy of our families and work - all this is nothing?

 

Ecc 2:22 What has a man from all the toil and striving of heart with which he toils beneath the sun?

Ecc 2:23 For all his days are full of sorrow, and his work is a vexation. Even in the night his heart does not rest. This also is vanity.

Ecc 2:24 There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God,

Ecc 2:25 for apart from him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?

Ecc 2:26 For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a striving after wind.

 

Ecc 3:10 I have seen the business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

Ecc 3:12 I perceived that there is nothing better for them than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live;

Ecc 3:13 also that everyone should eat and drink and take pleasure in all his toil--this is God's gift to man.

Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.

 

 

rayskidude says - The absolute lack of cogent thought on this site is truly amazing - you all posit yourselves as thoughtful people who've arrived at your current philosophy of life from a scientific, well thought-out, reasoned process. And yet - the sheer ignorance of history, of sociology, of science - I'm continually befuddled by the dearth of functioning synapses.

 

Do you have any idea what this is and what it means at all? Obviously not, or you wouldn't be using it to promote your own position. Schopenhauer drew heavily from Eastern religions ray. He is talking about life as an expression of the will as being goal-oriented. We are seeking something from the future. This is "desiring" in Buddhism. This is looking towards heaven as one's goal. All this causes suffering. This is what the man is saying ray...the fulfillment of desire is impossible! When you look to the future to fulfill you, you will be disappointed.

 

SO, Schopenhauer actually said that looking forward to being in God's Presence forever in heaven, with the wealth of diverse experiences to be found among the glories of heaven - he said this will only disappoint? Interesting.

 

One becomes bored when not striving for something and then life is seen as empty because you don't know what to do with existence itself. This is representing a state of mind...a mind like yours. One that is in constant desire, or goal-oriented. You then see life without goals as being empty. He is describing you ray.

 

Not really - unless, of course, I'm in COMPLETE DENIAL!

 

"Whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse." Isaac Asimov

 

Asimov was ignorant of what the Bible teaches re: heaven.

 

What are your goals in heaven going to be ray?

 

I suggest you read "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. I don't agree with all he has to say - but I believe he's on track with the fact that the experiences and growth that we'll have in heaven are related to - but yet far beyond - anything in this life. Similar in that art, music, science, literature, engineering, architecture, etc will all exist and be pursued - and yet our responsibilities and joy in our work and relationships will far outstrip anything in this world infected by sin.

 

I look forward to an eternity of bliss - and I will not be disappointed.

[Astreja]

Wow, so meaning can only be found in this life? That's it?

It would appear so, yes.

 

And to live each day in this life for God's glory, to live in joy for the heavenly future, and the joy in our present relationships, and the joy of our families and work - all this is nothing?

In the absence of any evidence that your god and its heaven exist -- Yes, this is a waste of time. Joy in relationships and in work is quite valid, but one does not need gods or supernatural beliefs for that.

 

I look forward to an eternity of bliss - and I will not be disappointed.

Of course you won't be disappointed, Ray. When your body dies and your brain ceases to operate, you won't be aware enough to experience disappointment.

 

Riddle Me this: You obviously think that some component of your personality and your sentience can survive physical death. If this is so, where was it last night, during the dreamless portions of your sleep?

[NonXNonExX]

And where does a person's soul go when he or she becomes demented in old age? Or when he or she has total amnesia due to accident or illness?

[NotBlinded]

ray, you are assumming again. No, not everyone knows that no ultimate goal = no meaningful purpose. That is not that case and it is evident even in the essay you quoted, which I'll get to below. Is there a goal when you dance? Is there a goal when listen to music? Is there a goal when you are enjoying life? You are just stating your point of view of reality and projecting what you see as the consequences to not following your own belief system. It has nothing to do with atheists at all.

 

The only thing I'm assuming is that people have common sense. But since you think that meaningful purpose is possible in the absence of an ultimate goal - well then, please state youe example.

 

My goal in everything is to glorify God - which can happen from even the mundane things in life.

1Co 10:29 ... For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience?

1Co 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

1Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 

When I dance and listen to music and enjoy life - I glorify God by experienceing and enjoying that which He has given us to enjoy. SO my thanks return to Him for providing the cause for enjoyment. Now, I don't say I'm always consciously in this attitude - I can certainly enjoy God's blessings without giving thought to His generosity - but I try to train myself to think Godward throughout my day.

 

But for any who never consider God - or are training themselves to think He doen't exist - well then, this life is the best you'll ever experience. Have at it. But for the believer, this life is the worst we'll see, because the glories of heaven will be explored and studied and experienced and all done in the very Presence of the God of the universe, who is amazing beyond all measure. The thought of heaven being boring - well that's simply the product of an unimaginative mind. Because the Bible is replete with examples and indications of the richness of the heavenly life lived out in glorified bodies, unhinderd by indwelling sin.

You have given the example above. Living is the goal and living life like it had no future goal makes it worth living. How much of life do you miss when you travel to a destination and don't notice the sights and people along the way?

 

Why do you have to train yourself to think Godward throughout your day? Isn't living and loving life a wonderful way to thank God in itself?

 

Really, that's what missionaries do when they set up health clinics and hospitals, schools, food pantries for the poor, literacy classes, clinincs to address women's health issues, and churches? They're just putting a sneaky little system to deliver Christian curses? When's the last time you visited a missionary? And did you have the honesty to tell them they were "just setting up a sneaky curse system?" How did they respond to your assessment?

 

How is repentance from all sin, and turning by faith to Jesus the Messiah - to be like Him in His sacrificing love, forgiveness, mercy, and generosity - how is this sneaky? No one is compelled to believe - each person is a free moral agent. And in fact, most missionaries experience few conversions as a percentage of the populations they serve.

I'm glad that most don't convert. It's the ones that are suseptible to mental manipulation in their poor state that are paying the price. Repentance from sin is a huge mental mind-game. All this does is tell them that they really are low-life sinners and deserve what they get. Sin, you have to believe it in order to be saved from it. They are snake-oil salespeople.

 

Wow, so meaning can only be found in this life? That's it? And to live each day in this life for God's glory, to live in joy for the heavenly future, and the joy in our present relationships, and the joy of our families and work - all this is nothing?

Again, why does this mean nothing? What more meaning does it have if you project it to heaven? What meaning will heaven have when you get there and don't have a goal any longer?

 

Ecc 2:22 What has a man from all the toil and striving of heart with which he toils beneath the sun?

Ecc 2:23 For all his days are full of sorrow, and his work is a vexation. Even in the night his heart does not rest. This also is vanity.

Ecc 2:24 There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God,

Ecc 2:25 for apart from him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?

Ecc 2:26 For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a striving after wind.

 

Ecc 3:10 I have seen the business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

Ecc 3:12 I perceived that there is nothing better for them than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live;

Ecc 3:13 also that everyone should eat and drink and take pleasure in all his toil--this is God's gift to man.

Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.

You quote this and not understand what I'm saying? Yes, be joyful in life and doing this pleases God. The sinner is the one who doesn't understand this! What are you saying?

 

You use Ecc and Schopenhauer to show the meaningless in life, yet you don't understand what is being said as far as I can tell. Read it again. If your days are full of sorrow and striving of the heart you will suffer because you are indeed striving.

 

Here is the definition of striving:

 

Noun 1. striving - an effortful attempt to attain a goal

 

So, what does it say. It says to live life in enjoyment not in striving because to do so is vanity or of the ego. Guess what...that is correct. You strive for the statisfaction of yourself in heaven and call this the worst life we'll see. How can you say this about life and yet give thanks to God by enjoying life like you said you do at the same time?

 

Yes, you are what Ecc and Schopenhauer are addressing:

 

Ecc 2:22 What has a man from all the toil and striving of heart with which he toils beneath the sun?

Ecc 2:23 For all his days are full of sorrow, and his work is a vexation. Even in the night his heart does not rest. This also is vanity.

 

Schopenhauer:

 

How can it dwell where, as Plato says, continual Becoming and never Being is the sole form of existence? In the first place, a man never is happy, but spends his whole life in striving after something which he thinks will make him so; he seldom attains his goal, and when he does, it is only to be disappointed; he is mostly shipwrecked in the end, and comes into harbor with masts and rigging gone.

 

The cure? Stop and smell the freakin' roses!

 

rayskidude says - The absolute lack of cogent thought on this site is truly amazing - you all posit yourselves as thoughtful people who've arrived at your current philosophy of life from a scientific, well thought-out, reasoned process. And yet - the sheer ignorance of history, of sociology, of science - I'm continually befuddled by the dearth of functioning synapses.

 

Do you have any idea what this is and what it means at all? Obviously not, or you wouldn't be using it to promote your own position. Schopenhauer drew heavily from Eastern religions ray. He is talking about life as an expression of the will as being goal-oriented. We are seeking something from the future. This is "desiring" in Buddhism. This is looking towards heaven as one's goal. All this causes suffering. This is what the man is saying ray...the fulfillment of desire is impossible! When you look to the future to fulfill you, you will be disappointed.

 

SO, Schopenhauer actually said that looking forward to being in God's Presence forever in heaven, with the wealth of diverse experiences to be found among the glories of heaven - he said this will only disappoint? Interesting.

Read it again.

 

One becomes bored when not striving for something and then life is seen as empty because you don't know what to do with existence itself. This is representing a state of mind...a mind like yours. One that is in constant desire, or goal-oriented. You then see life without goals as being empty. He is describing you ray.

 

Not really - unless, of course, I'm in COMPLETE DENIAL!

No, one of us is confused...

 

I suggest you read "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. I don't agree with all he has to say - but I believe he's on track with the fact that the experiences and growth that we'll have in heaven are related to - but yet far beyond - anything in this life. Similar in that art, music, science, literature, engineering, architecture, etc will all exist and be pursued - and yet our responsibilities and joy in our work and relationships will far outstrip anything in this world infected by sin.

 

I look forward to an eternity of bliss - and I will not be disappointed.

 

I haven't read it but read about it. Sin is created by not recognizing what we have before our eyes. Ironic isn't it?

 

Yes, keep striving for your eternity and suffer (because it's all in vanity or call it sinning) as these people tell you about that you keep quoting.

[Skankboy]

I look forward to an eternity of bliss - and I will not be disappointed.

And if it doesn't happen, you won't know either way.

 

I really, REALLY, have a problem with the whole "this life is but a pale shadow, look not to this world but to the next" idea.

 

In my opinion, the rarer something is, the more valuable it is. Life is finite and so the rarest gift we have. To desire a life beyond this one is just selfish in my opinion. It's the monkey mind desperately trying to shout "NO! I MUST exist! The world cannot exist without me!" It's the ego trying to sooth itself. You're hardwired to not want to die. It's not surprising we as a species should come up with a myriad of ways (heaven, reincarnation, paradise, etc.)to make us feel better with the idea that when (or our loved ones) die, they/we aren't "really" dead.

 

Don't get me wrong, very people actually want to die. We wouldn't be around today if it was otherwise.

 

To quote the bard (Steven Tyler) "Life's a journey, not a destination". How can you trully appreciate the now, when all you're doing is looking to future?

 

Heaven - the more I've thought about heaven, the more it confuses me. If there's no sin in heaven, is there still free will? If there isn't free will, is it really "you" that's in heaven? If there is free will and no sin, they why couldn't god do the same on earth? What's the point? How can you truly enjoy heaven when you know many you knew before are suffering, probably for eternity? If god makes you not worry abot them, then you really don't have free will anymore...

 

I always find it odd how believers constantly limit the abilities of a supposedly multi-omni entity.

 

I believe religion is a deeply personal matter. I have no problem with christians per se, I have an issue with any group that tries to limit the freedoms of others.

[agnosticator]

How can you truly enjoy heaven when you know many you knew before are suffering, probably for eternity? If god makes you not worry abot them, then you really don't have free will anymore...

 

This reminds me of the movie "THE RAPTURE", where a mother defies God because of the anguish and suffering He brought upon her family after they became "born again" believers. She rejects heaven after realizing how cruel God is. I won't give away the rest of the story because it's a movie well worth seeing.

[bdp]

god, ray is nauseating...if I ever so much as begin to lean back in that direction, someone promise you'll shoot me. Please.

[NotBlinded]

I look forward to an eternity of bliss - and I will not be disappointed.

And if it doesn't happen, you won't know either way.

 

I really, REALLY, have a problem with the whole "this life is but a pale shadow, look not to this world but to the next" idea.

 

In my opinion, the rarer something is, the more valuable it is. Life is finite and so the rarest gift we have. To desire a life beyond this one is just selfish in my opinion. It's the monkey mind desperately trying to shout "NO! I MUST exist! The world cannot exist without me!" It's the ego trying to sooth itself. You're hardwired to not want to die. It's not surprising we as a species should come up with a myriad of ways (heaven, reincarnation, paradise, etc.)to make us feel better with the idea that when (or our loved ones) die, they/we aren't "really" dead.

 

Don't get me wrong, very people actually want to die. We wouldn't be around today if it was otherwise.

 

To quote the bard (Steven Tyler) "Life's a journey, not a destination". How can you trully appreciate the now, when all you're doing is looking to future?

 

Heaven - the more I've thought about heaven, the more it confuses me. If there's no sin in heaven, is there still free will? If there isn't free will, is it really "you" that's in heaven? If there is free will and no sin, they why couldn't god do the same on earth? What's the point? How can you truly enjoy heaven when you know many you knew before are suffering, probably for eternity? If god makes you not worry abot them, then you really don't have free will anymore...

 

I always find it odd how believers constantly limit the abilities of a supposedly multi-omni entity.

 

I believe religion is a deeply personal matter. I have no problem with christians per se, I have an issue with any group that tries to limit the freedoms of others.

Skankboy...that was awesome.

[Shyone]

Skankboy...that was awesome.

Yep, he summed up my thinking concisely, and with a poetic flare. Nicely done.

[chefranden]

So if that other life is so wonderful, why the hell don't you just go there?

 

At my nephew's funeral, they went on and on about him being in a better place. I wanted to jump up and shout, "Hallelujah! Please pass the Kool Aid!" But I had compassion on my sister and held my tongue.

[agnosticator]

Rayskidude:

No one is compelled to believe - each person is a free moral agent.

 

If that were true, why wouldn't the christian god leave us to die and forget about hellfire/outer darkness revenge? We only have two options-believe or suffer eternally.