So Um... Why Don't The "devout" Xians Stick It Out?

[Mriana]

I concur that perfectionism is harmful. Though I believe that the Wesleys accomplished much good - their push to perfectionism was unBiblical. There are a number of Scriptures which teach Christian liberty within various aspects of life - so to try to generate 'robots' who all think and act the same is just unBiblical. We all have different personalities given by God, different spiritual gifts given by God, different education, famliy life, aptitudes, interests, etc. We need to celebrate the diversity of peoples.

 

Actually it is Biblical, but there is not as much of support for it as with other doctrines. Wesley himself even quoted verses that he believed supported it.

 

I am sorry for your experience - and I would have to disagree.

 

I wasn't refering to my experience, so I don't know what you are talking about in that respect, but if you want to believe in a sky-daddy, that is your problem.

 

Have you studied Greek mythology? Norse mythology? Or any other mythology? Even the Jews started out as polytheistic and fought among themselves as to which should be the head deity.

 

I don't think there's any factual data to indicate any of this.

 

On the contrary, there is plenty.

 

Buddhism is Hinduism on a fast track - using the 8-fold path to achieve Nirvana faster. And they believe all things are emanations from The Ground of Being (from demi-gods, angels, etc down to bugs then to even inanimate matter) - and all this will eventually flow back to the Ground of Being. SO they teach a 'universalist' position of Nirvana - we all get back, just a question of velocity. SO, Yes, I believe you are correct - Hinduism/Buhhhism wouldn't ultimately condemn anyone - but would say that people in other religions will take longer to get to Nirvana.

 

So they have demi-gods, but you worship the demiurge.

[Mriana]

There is a reason that the Gospel of Thomas was rejected from the Bible - because pantheism is not correct, true religion. The believers of the first few centuries were knowledgable of alternate religious beliefs being promulgated to 'piggyback' on Christianity, or to draw people away from Jesus the Messiah as He is truly.

 

Gnosticism is not pantheism. Be that as it may, that was not the reason the Gospel of Thomas was rejected. In fact, there is talk to include as the fifth gospel. The Jesus Seminar and other Scholars feel it is an important gospel. It is also obvious you do not know what Gnosticism is.

 

Well that last you said following this made no sense at all.

[Neon Genesis]

Did Ray actually have the nerve to claim all non-Christians are unhappy people?

[agnosticator]

Did Ray actually have the nerve to claim all non-Christians are unhappy people?

 

Do you mean when he said this?

 

To look within myself for any deliverance from worldly foibles or to find "life" would only disappoint. Abundant life is possible only in Jesus the Messiah. All other pursuits cannot deliver on their promises of a great life.

 

Think of all those "true" christians who have lives abundant with divorces, unwanted children, backbiting, hypocrisy, living in prisons...etc. Oh, sorry. They just took their eyes off of Jesus.

[Deva]

To look within myself for any deliverance from worldly foibles or to find "life" would only disappoint. Abundant life is possible only in Jesus the Messiah. All other pursuits cannot deliver on their promises of a great life.

 

Do you seriously think all Christians have a "great life" and all of us heathens have a crummy life? Do you actually believe that?

I am simply incredulous at this statement.

 

The first religion was Adam & Eve - and their descendants - worshipping the God of the Bible.

 

Prove it. There was no "Bible" or "God of the Bible" 4,000 years ago while the Hindus were throwing things into the fire and worshiping Agni. Not to mention indications of prehistoric religion shown in cave paintings.

 

Just look at human history - Man's continual inhumanity & cruelty to other men, seeking to establish themselves as the ultimate authority - to rule & reign & promote themsleves.

 

Yeah, take a good look at all human history - especially the history of the Catholic Church, without which you would have no Bible and no knowledge whatever of the Christian God. Look at the Crusades, the pogroms, the witch burnings, the inquisition, the corrupt popes, the reformers who burned people alive and looted other churches, take a real good look at that.

 

But look at Jesus the Messiah & Christianity - living in humility, living in love, living in generosity to others, living in submission to their God. Have Christians been always been faithful to God & others - NO, we have not. So Christains must repent of our own sin, confess our own sin to God others, and dedicate ourselves to live sacrificially for God's glory and the benefit of Man.

 

Still sinners, huh? What good is it then? Isn't that a colossal failure on the part of Jesus, or is it just that even accepting Christ we still can't do anything good? What Christians live sacrificially? Where are they to be found?

[Legion]

Do you seriously think all Christians have a "great life" and all of us heathens have a crummy life? Do you actually believe that?

I’m a heathen, and there are many things in my life for which I am extremely grateful.

[Deva]

Do you seriously think all Christians have a "great life" and all of us heathens have a crummy life? Do you actually believe that?

I’m a heathen, and there are many things in my life for which I am extremely grateful.

 

Me too, Legion.

[Legion]

Deva let me seize this opportunity to tell you about my gratitude for you. I think you have a certain nobility, a certain poise. And I am grateful that I have met you and have interacted with you.

 

Thank causality for Deva!

[Snakefoot]

To tell you the truth as I perceive it Mriana, your initial post came across as condescending. If what you suppose is accurate, that this group of non-believers are more intelligent than an average believer, then there you are.

 

In answer to your question, the book itself says we only see in part, so why would it be possible for any Christian to know all the answers to the rhetorical BS that is spewn at them?

 

In your "real" world, it would take me less than 15 seconds to ask a question about this physical universe or perhaps the makeup of your kitchen table that you could not answer in your blessed lifetime.

 

My suggestion would be, take your "knowledge" and put it to good use.....emphasis on GOOD.

 

And btw, by the number of posts you have, doesn't look as though you have "challenged" much.

 

"Rhetorical BS"? "We only see in part"? When you can't answer tough questions, address logical fallacies, or cope with reasoned arguments, resort to babblical cliches and label reason as rhetoric.

 

Typical.

[Deva]

Deva let me seize this opportunity to tell you about my gratitude for you. I think you have a certain nobility, a certain poise. And I am grateful that I have met you and have interacted with you.

 

Thank causality for Deva!

 

Thank you Legion, I appreciate that.

[Mriana]

To look within myself for any deliverance from worldly foibles or to find "life" would only disappoint. Abundant life is possible only in Jesus the Messiah. All other pursuits cannot deliver on their promises of a great life.

 

Do you seriously think all Christians have a "great life" and all of us heathens have a crummy life? Do you actually believe that?

I am simply incredulous at this statement.

 

Has he ever tried any other philosophies to know this is true? And what about those who are utterly miserable within Xianity? And just exactly what is abundant life? There is the good life, but abundant? Does that mean "a lot" of life, maybe even too much life?

 

The first religion was Adam & Eve - and their descendants - worshipping the God of the Bible.

 

Prove it. There was no "Bible" or "God of the Bible" 4,000 years ago while the Hindus were throwing things into the fire and worshiping Agni. Not to mention indications of prehistoric religion shown in cave paintings.

 

How does he know the first people actually worshiped a god? And if they did, how does he know it was god as he knows it?

 

But look at Jesus the Messiah & Christianity - living in humility, living in love, living in generosity to others, living in submission to their God. Have Christians been always been faithful to God & others - NO, we have not. So Christains must repent of our own sin, confess our own sin to God others, and dedicate ourselves to live sacrificially for God's glory and the benefit of Man.

 

Still sinners, huh? What good is it then? Isn't that a colossal failure on the part of Jesus, or is it just that even accepting Christ we still can't do anything good? What Christians live sacrificially? Where are they to be found?

 

Living in submission to God? Now he sounds like a Muslim. And if God/Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the final sacrifice, why do we need to sacrifice ourselves? That doesn't make any sense at all. Not to get all Wesleyan on him, but it would make more sense to live like Christ, with the exception of crucifixion, but then again, other humans will take care of that part through their daily lives. If we are to be Xian, we must strive to pure of mind and heart, thus no cursing, no bad thought, no bad speech, no bad actions, no swearing, follow the 10 Commandments to a tee, and we must idolize the Bible as the word of God as we follow it word for word, without error and without changing one iota of it. Here you go for more info, rayskidude: http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/wesley/perfection.stm and http://www.gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC/ltpc08_christian_perfectio.htm

 

As for not being Biblical: http://www.lcoggt.org/What%20Is%20Holiness/perfection.htm and http://www.biblical-theology.net/biblical_basis_for%20Entire%20Sanctification.htm and http://www.eaglevision.com.my/mp3perfection.htm and http://www.revempete.us/research/holiness/christianperfection.html

 

Probably more info than you wanted to know, but I get sick of the back and forth between Calvinists and Wesleyans as to who is right and who is wrong- you're both right, yet at the same time you are both DEAD wrong, because such a lifestyle only leads to not leaving life, a source of misery, and a wasted life. In the end, you either kill yourself or die without living the only life you know you have for sure. People are happiest when they have the freedom to live their lives fully and be all they can be, while striving to better themselves and humanity.

[Deva]

People are happiest when they have the freedom to live their lives fully and be all they can be, while striving to better themselves and humanity.

 

I could not agree with you more.

[NotBlinded]

So, God shows His power by conquering and using even sin for His purposes. But also, there are many commendable attributes both of God & Man that we would not have experienced if sin, evil, tragedy, wrong, etc did not exist. Here's a short list;

forgiveness

reconciliation

mercy

courage

grace

perseverance

selflessness

redemption

salvation (shalom)

heroism

So, Satan is a necessary player, correct? The Fall was intentional, right?

 

Now, what are you going to experience in this "greater life after death" called heaven?

[NotBlinded]

I am thankful that God has created me in His own image & likeness, and that as I live in accordance with His Bible - then I can be close to Him, living to please Him, living with an eternal perspective, involved in areas of life that have eternal significance. To look within myself for any deliverance from worldly foibles or to find "life" would only disappoint. Abundant life is possible only in Jesus the Messiah. All other pursuits cannot deliver on their promises of a great life.

Bullshit. It's all about you isn't it?

[NotBlinded]

Did Ray actually have the nerve to claim all non-Christians are unhappy people?

He does this quite often along with saying it's not possible to live a fruitful, happy life outside of Christianity. It makes me sick. His arrogance and "pity me, the little sinner" is nothing but a veiled outpouring of his "specialness".

 

God, why do I read his posts? I do have a morbid curiosity though. Maybe that's it. To see Christians such as this call themselves lowly sinners while groveling through the mires of self-centeredness keeps me from looking at others as he does.

[NotBlinded]

To look within myself for any deliverance from worldly foibles or to find "life" would only disappoint. Abundant life is possible only in Jesus the Messiah. All other pursuits cannot deliver on their promises of a great life.

 

Do you seriously think all Christians have a "great life" and all of us heathens have a crummy life? Do you actually believe that?

I am simply incredulous at this statement.

He does and he will outright tell you that too. I haven't read on...let's see if he does.

 

Edit: I guess he hasn't told you yet, but wait for it. It will come...

[agnosticator]

God, why do I read his posts? I do have a morbid curiosity though. Maybe that's it. To see Christians such as this call themselves lowly sinners while groveling through the mires of self-centeredness keeps me from looking at others as he does.

 

I too am a gluten for punishment. It is weird how he plays at being humble, while really being a haughty little sinner full of himself. I wait for his response to see whether he speaks as a human or a christian zombie with a superiority complex.

[Deva]

To look within myself for any deliverance from worldly foibles or to find "life" would only disappoint. Abundant life is possible only in Jesus the Messiah. All other pursuits cannot deliver on their promises of a great life.

 

Do you seriously think all Christians have a "great life" and all of us heathens have a crummy life? Do you actually believe that?

I am simply incredulous at this statement.

He does and he will outright tell you that too. I haven't read on...let's see if he does.

 

Edit: I guess he hasn't told you yet, but wait for it. It will come...

 

Heck, I know it notblinded. He does actually believe that. I don't know, having a fundy say these things outright, without waffling around or excuses, helps me in some strange way.

[Mriana]

God, why do I read his posts? I do have a morbid curiosity though. Maybe that's it. To see Christians such as this call themselves lowly sinners while groveling through the mires of self-centeredness keeps me from looking at others as he does.

 

 

God, why do I read his posts? I do have a morbid curiosity though. Maybe that's it. To see Christians such as this call themselves lowly sinners while groveling through the mires of self-centeredness keeps me from looking at others as he does.

 

I too am a gluten for punishment. It is weird how he plays at being humble, while really being a haughty little sinner full of himself. I wait for his response to see whether he speaks as a human or a christian zombie with a superiority complex.

 

You guys actually read his posts? At best, I may skim them and if something catches my eye, I might address it. I gave up trying to read what he said a long time ago- it either made no sense or it was not logical. So I started skimming over them. About the only way I know anymore if these Xians around here say anything note worthy is by everyone else's comments. That was how I knew Abi, the dude with that fundie Ex-wife, said something important and I went back to actually read what he had to say. The other time might actually read what they have to say, is if they actually address me directly. Otherwise I skim through it and if I see Bible verses, I skip over them- just as I have done all my life, esp with my Fundamngelical relatives.

[Shyone]

[

You guys actually read his posts? At best, I may skim them and if something catches my eye, I might address it. I gave up trying to read what he said a long time ago- it either made no sense or it was not logical. So I started skimming over them. About the only way I know anymore if these Xians around here say anything note worthy is by everyone else's comments. That was how I knew Abi, the dude with that fundie Ex-wife, said something important and I went back to actually read what he had to say. The other time might actually read what they have to say, is if they actually address me directly. Otherwise I skim through it and if I see Bible verses, I skip over them- just as I have done all my life, esp with my Fundamngelical relatives.

I thought I was the only one that didn't read all of the Christian posts. It makes my head hurt to see them twist and turn to avoid facing the arguments presented honestly.

[NotBlinded]

You guys actually read his posts? At best, I may skim them and if something catches my eye, I might address it. I gave up trying to read what he said a long time ago- it either made no sense or it was not logical. So I started skimming over them. About the only way I know anymore if these Xians around here say anything note worthy is by everyone else's comments. That was how I knew Abi, the dude with that fundie Ex-wife, said something important and I went back to actually read what he had to say. The other time might actually read what they have to say, is if they actually address me directly. Otherwise I skim through it and if I see Bible verses, I skip over them- just as I have done all my life, esp with my Fundamngelical relatives.

Yeah, I don't know why either. I'll usually skip the bible verses and I haven't been reading much from ray lately because of his arrogant, stinking attitude about how we are not able to live good lives without his Jesus blankey. Then, I read him again and he's saying the same thing.

 

Something eeeeevvvvvil draws me to his posts...

 

 

[agnosticator]

You guys actually read his posts?

 

I skip over the verses too, but feel compelled to read what he has to say. I think I read and respond because I don't have many opportunities to speak my mind in real life, due to the shunning and/or anger I would receive. Too many unthinking and bigoted christians around me. At least the ones here respond without affecting my social life. Yet, if they are in my house, I let them know what I think!

[rayskidude]

Did Ray actually have the nerve to claim all non-Christians are unhappy people?

 

He does this quite often along with saying it's not possible to live a fruitful, happy life outside of Christianity. It makes me sick. His arrogance and "pity me, the little sinner" is nothing but a veiled outpouring of his "specialness".

 

Wassup, y'all?

 

First, let me state categorically state that I have never said that non-Christians cannot (or often 'do not') lead happy lives, and even lives that bear some level of good fruit. What I have said is that non-Christians cannot lead a life that ultimately provides any sense of lasting value or any significance. But especially, that is true for atheists - because by their own admission, they claim that life is simply an amalgamation of physical processes and chance chemical collisions/interactions with no guidance/direction/goals/purposes/etc - so I'm just stating exactly what they themselves adamantly posit as obvious reality. As anyone knoews, no ultimate goal = no meaningful purpose. Atheists simply need to think thru their beliefs and be honest; and I find that mnay do not apply themselves to this.

 

Let's take an extreme example for means of conversation. A tribal witch doctor will often be happy. He has the respect of the tribal community, the ear of the tribal chieftain re: local politics, the money from his practice of hiring himself out to heal diseases, or cast spells, or remove spells, etc. He/she and their family are happy and content with their position and prosperity. And I submit that many of the tribal people would also be generally happy within this system, though occasionally unhappy by being the victim of a spell or curse. Now - would we all want to encourage this lifestyle???? Would we want to help maintain this system???

 

Or would we, when we came upon this established social system, seek to educate these people as to the absolute lie behind this system - and we would seek to work with them to change their 'spiritual philosophy' in order to deliver them out of this abusive system???

 

So, what good is this happiness? It's based on a lie, on some taking advantage of the suffering of others, on promulgating a status quo for personal gain, etc.

 

"B,b,b,b, but, they've lived like this for centuries - why should we disturb this established society?" would be the cry of many. Leave them alone - they're happy!

 

Also, consider that we all live in Western societies that have centuries of Christian underpinnings which have generated civil communities with many advantages. I suggest that atheists travel to inland Africa, inland China, central Asia, many parts of the Arab world, many US inner-city settings, etc - and see what 'happy & meaningful' lives people are living. This insistence that non-Christians can live 'good & fruitful' lives fails to recognize that the overall justice and opportunities in the West are owed to Christian foundations which have provided for our advantages. And this failure is simply dishonest, and inexcusable.

 

So when you insist that you can live happy and fruitful lives on your own terms - put yourself in a village in Chad, or Armenia, or Chechnya, or Egypt, or China/Tibet, or the south side of Chicago >> and live out your life to your liking. I submit that you'll be quickly squashed!

 

The absolute lack of cogent thought on this site is truly amazing - you all posit yourselves as thoughtful people who've arrived at your current philosophy of life from a scientific, well thought-out, reasoned process. And yet - the sheer ignorance of history, of sociology, of science - I'm continually befuddled by the dirth of functioning synapses.

 

Note this following quote from the prominent German philosopher, Schopenhauer;

"In a world where all is unstable, and nought can endure, but is swept onwards at once in the hurrying whirlpool of change; where a man, if he is to keep erect at all, must always be advancing and moving, like an acrobat on a rope—in such a world, happiness in inconceivable. How can it dwell where, as Plato says, continual Becoming and never Being is the sole form of existence? In the first place, a man never is happy, but spends his whole life in striving after something which he thinks will make him so; he seldom attains his goal, and when he does, it is only to be disappointed; he is mostly shipwrecked in the end, and comes into harbor with masts and rigging gone. And then, it is all one whether he has been happy or miserable; for his life was never anything more than a present moment always vanishing; and now it is over."

 

I recommend the entire essay:

 

On the Vanity of Existence.

[Vixentrox]

I think Rayskidude is comparing his faith to that of a tribal witch doctors. Christianity is after all an abusive system. Christianity is based on a lie. Christianity takes advantage of others and their suffering. Preachers preach status quo for personal gain all the time..

[Robbobrob]

"no ultimate goal = no meaningful purpose"

 

That is true, but really, what you think is the ultimate goal, and what I think is the ultimate goal, do not coincide. And your ultimate goal seems like such a waste of our precious little time on this planet, even if it is true.

 

To quote the Rubber Duck, "The purpose of the convoy is to keep moving." Sometimes the most meaningful things are the simpliest concepts. The purpose of life is to keep living, and not die out. What Christians and other religionists have done is not accept that that means generationally and as a species, but has egotistically made it about individual survival. We all want to live forever. You have a belief that we can. But immortality is not a meaningful purpose. given all the time ever, there is no need to have any purpose, because there is no deadline to accomplish anything, you will always have more time.

 

Only the finality of death gives a reason to persue our goals with any urgency. If your afterlife is true...and we have all eternity to do nothing in....I'd rather be completely dead. Eternity without any further goals is the ultimate meaningless purpose. And torturous too.