Believers' Inferences About God's Beliefs Are Uniquely Egocentric

[Guest]

And where do you get your morals from?

 

Morals develop with social development. They evolve with intellect.

 

They certainly don't come from god, which is where you appear to be going with your question. If god is a moral lawgiver, god's laws are only moral if they conform to moral principles which are independent of god.

[Kuroikaze]

1. We can observe gravity. We have never observed one animal changing into another animal. We've never seen life come from non-life. I don't disagree with God programming into the genetic code something that allows for upper and lower limits of mutation but never have we seen an animal change into another kind of animal. A mouse doesn't become a bird. We've never see a bear turn into a shark. You cannot observe billions of years of evolution. So this remains in the realm of fantasy.

 

ANNND This is why skeptics like myself are fighting to improve the state of science education in this country.

 

The fact that you believe the line of bull shit you just spewed.

 

See, if we observed an animal turn into another animal that would, in fact, be proof that evolution is WRONG, not correct. One animal does not turn into something else, nor does it give birth to something else.

 

This does not change the fact that we HAVE observed speciation in nature. We have mountains of DNA evidence, (explain retrovirus insertions) Thousands of transitional species have been found in the fossil record.

 

The evidence is astounding, actually we know more about how evolution works than how gravity works, we still have not found the Higgs boson particle so the entire theory of gravity is still just mathematical formulas with no observational data to back it up.

 

2. Who says something has to be hurting people for it to be wrong? Stealing to doesn't hurt people. It doesn't physically harm anyone. But then again who says hurting people is wrong? According to the atheistic world view its all relative.

 

WE say its wrong, I do not need a god for that. We decide something is wrong because we find the results of the action to be undesirable.

 

By the by, stealing IS harmful. Any advanced culture is going to have developed a sense of property ownership, and if theft becomes too common then the society will fall apart. Thus we do not allow it.

 

3. So again because we observe it in nature its ok to do it. Killing is observed in 100% of species with LIFE. I've watched as birds stole or intimidated another bird away from its food. That must be ok. Oh but I guess since they aren't killing one of their own kind of animal that must be ok. So if a white person kills a white person thats messed up but if they kill anybody else thats perfectly fine.

 

This is a horrible misrepresentation of my statement and you know it. Religion has had a much worse record when it comes to racism so I do not think this is a road you wish to tread.

 

For one thing, I do not consider white people and black people or any other race to be in a different group, the evidence does not support such a conclusion. The fact that YOU think it does, says more about you than it does me. I'll be frank, it makes you look like a racist.

 

Though religion often acts as a source of division itself in this way. People kill members of other religions because they do not see them as the same group.

 

4. Mass breeding like hamsters and rabbits do isn't exactly helpful creating more strain on the food supply and all.

 

Yes, but in the wild these get eaten by predators a lot, the high rate of birth is actually an example of evolution at work. They survive by reproducing faster than the predators can eat them.

 

5. You are the one who says its observed in nature, don't be a hypocrite because I list off other things observed in nature.

 

 

:rolls eyes: yeah, I'M the hypocrite.

 

Look I was just giving you fair warning. Call me an overprotective older brother or whatever.

 

You have free speech, you can say what you want, but I can also react to it however I choose.

 

If you compare homosexuality to cannibalism I will become an asshole, that is a fact. What you do with that fact is up to you.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

 

5. How to test the spirit

 

 

1 John 4

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

 

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

If this spirit is confessing Christ is Lord and not denying He came in the flesh then I'll listen if not I'll command it away in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

 

That is very interesting. You don't think that your method could possibly be deceived? I mean doesn't the bible say "Even the demons believe and tremble"? And how would you know it was an actual spirit and not a hallucination or a delusion? How could the the claims of another person's experience be tested this way?

 

1. The bible says of itself that ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is profitable for doctine, reproof, correction, training in righteousness that the man of God can be perfectly furnished unto good works. I don't believe this method is decieved and when we look at people like Muhammed, Joeseph Smith, Ellen G White, Benjamin Creme so on and so on the common thread is that they deny Jesus is Lord and that Jesus came in the flesh. Its quite refeshing to see how relevant the bible is in modern times. The things Christ warned about then are coming to bear fruit today (especially today).

 

2. Yes the bible does say even the demons believe and tremble but this isn't speaking of how I know or not this is God I'm talking to but rather how do I know I have real faith. I guess even in the time of James there were people saying oh well I believe in God that is enough, I don't need to do anything else I just have to believe. But James is saying thats the devils faith.

 

3. How do I know its not a hallueination or delusion? God isn't the author of confusion. If its a hallucenation or delusion and its trying to pose as God its still has to pass the test of confessing Christ and I'm not a betting man but if I were I'd wager this was demonic influence trying to creep in.

 

4. How can we test a persons claims. Scripture. Everytime you weigh what these people say against scripture its never the same. God says that He doesn't change and therefore when we look into scripture we can get an accurate picture of how God works. So when "god" talks to people who murder and maime others chances are its not from God.

 

5. Now of course the argument could be made that God commanded baby killings of the Amalekites and the Midianites. However this was in a war time situation and when God wants to destroy a people for being wicked everything must go. But god never commands an individual to kill a baby. We may not agree with the way the Lord judges people but I know for sure that God is far more knowledgeable and just than I am.

 

1. I meant more on an individual basis than in regards to various religions. Like another Christian who does believe that Jesus was flesh. You have already demonstrated that you disagree with other Christians on doctrine but they follow this rule.

 

2. I only meant that according to the bible that an evil spirit could well claim that Jesus is the savior who came in the flesh in order to deceive.

 

3. People have hallucinations that are neither demonic nor angelic. They are just a chemical imbalance in their brains causing them to see and hear things that are not there. A very sincere and godly person could well hallucinate a conversation with God that would pass the test of the Spirit. On what basis do you discern a real conversation with God from a neurological imbalance? If you were talking with a person under these delusions (perhaps more innocuous than child murder) how would you try and convince them they were wrong?

 

4. This makes some sense based on the assumption that the Bible is the word of God and infallible. That is something we here do not accept. But it does explain how you come to your conclusions.

 

5. God certainly did command an individual to kill a child at least once according to the OT (is Abraham too easy here?). And his character changes dramatically.

 

I understand now why you cannot accept what we say though. Having denied that Jesus is god in the flesh our words are lies, correct? I'll not insult you but I do not understand why you are here except to stir up conflict. And are you mainly here to talk to atheists? I am not an atheist.

[Kuroikaze]

1. You atheist have a real flare for circular reasoning don't you.

 

Naw, we can't compete with Christians in this department, what with reality getting in our way all the time.

 

2. That and God says killing children is wrong. You know...in the bible. Now its funny how atheist can get on their high horse about this when Hitler (a Darwin fanboy) killed millions in the of cleaning up the racial make up of Germany so that they can be restored to the Aryan superman. Hitler was a big eugenecist (evolutionary science taken to its most logical conclusion) even going so far as to write eugenecist in America praising their work in sterilizing blacks, handicapped and other social undesirables.

 

Hitler was a Christian, a Catholic, it was the state religion in Germany, and while he did have a interest in evolution as well. It was Lamarckian evolutionary theory. Perhaps you should read a history book once in a while. Hitler liked lamarcks theory better because it suited his ideals better.

 

Eugenics IS NOT, I REPEAT IS NOT in any way a logical conclusion of evolution, and any one with the most basic understanding of it would know this. It is a highly unreasonable conclusion made by people who do not understand the actual science behind evolution.

 

Where in the bible does it say killing little children is wrong? How about the OT, oh wait that is where god COMMANDS that the Israelite kill children in his name and several times gets angry with them for not killing EVERYONE in a place he tells them to conquer. Not to mention god allows them to keep the virgin women as sex slaves, and even has a bunch of children mauled to death by bears for making fun of Elijah for being bald. Great guy this god.

 

If you believe this is the most moral being in the universe I have some land in Florida to sell, I promise it exists and is not swamp land.

[Shyone]

 

6. Really now.

 

Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

Matthew 17

 

1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

 

2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

 

3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

 

4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

 

5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

 

6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

 

7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

 

8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

 

They did see Jesus in His glory. 6 DAYS after He made the prophecy. LOL.

Oh...My...goodness.

 

You left a few things out, and skipped some other prophecies.

 

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

Didn't happen.

 

Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

 

Mar 13:24 ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

 

Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

 

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

 

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

Mar 13:28 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

 

Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.

 

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

 

These things have not come to pass.

 

Are you a preterist?

[Jedah]

Oh look another "I believe in an imaginary friend who grants me my morals therefore you can't have morals without an imaginary friend like mine."

 

This is why we have copy paste

 

 

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Here is an interesting thing to ponder when questioning whether or not religious people who believe in an absolute being that dictates right from wrong have a better grasp on ethics then those who do not believe...

 

The entire premise that to be ethical requires an absolute being rests on the idea that the answer to the euthyphro dilemma is that it is "right because God says so". This makes God an objective being- meaning that all he says is 100% truth and reality. If God were to say leprechauns exist, they would. In comparison, we are subjective beings. Reality is not bended to our will. If we believe that we see a leprechaun during an acid trip, it does not mean that leprechauns exist. It just means they exist in our mind. Our thoughts and opinions on reality are subjective and thus open to question.

 

To put it in simpler terms, think of God ( Objective ) as a game programmer and us ( Subjective ) as characters in his game ( Reality ). The programmer dictates reality and we have no choice but to go with it.

 

The thing about being a subjective being is that pretty much everything we experience or think is subjective. For all we know, everything we hear, breath, touch, and know is an illusion via a system similar to "the matrix". We can "know" things for 99.9999 % but we can never reach 100%. Every piece of knowledge we come across must first be comprehended by our subjective minds. Which explains why we humans have different opinions on what things mean - different ideals mean different things to two different subjective minds that have experienced reality through other perspectives. Ironically, this is why we even have different religions in the first place.

 

Now lets take it up a notch and look at the relationship between a subjective being and an objective being. If one of us was to talk to God and God was to tell us the meaning of life, would he then have objective knowledge regarding life's purpose ? Actually, he wouldn't. In order to understand the objective knowledge that is being transferred, the subjective being in question would go through a number of subjective walls.

 

First: acknowledge that they are talking to an objective being ( God ) - Subjective. How does the person know they are talking to God and not their own hallucination ? Even if He really was talking to God, it doesn't change the fact that his understanding of the situation is still subjective.

 

Second: Acknowledge and comprehend the wisdom that has been given to you by the objective being. Wake up ! You just got told the meaning of life. So now what do you do ? Simple, the first thing the subjective being would do is attempt to figure out what he has been told actually means to him. whether this is done subconsciously or consciously doesn't matter, if the subjective being has any hope of remembering what he has been told, he goes through this step.

 

This creates a problem: No matter what, a subjective being cannot gain access to objective wisdom even if it is told directly to you by the almighty one himself, because Just by comprehending what it is you have been told through a subjective mind, the objective wisdom you have gained becomes subjective to your own understanding and thus becomes subjective in the process. Its the same as pouring water into orange juice, no matter how much water is poured in their will still be some orange juice inside. its that barrier between 99.999999999999999% and 100% that we as subjective beings, by definition cannot ever cross.

 

 

In other words, even if an absolute objective being exists that dictates the reality behind ethics...as far as we are concerned and as far as we can comprehend, it doesn't matter. As subjective being's we will always find ourselves turning to our own reason at one time or another, because that's what we ultimately understand. Even if God were to give us Objective knowledge of morality we would still only be able to comprehend that objective knowledge through a subjective mind. Our ethical standards would still be subjective.

 

If God was to tell us that murder is in fact, morally good, how many of us would honestly just flat out stop thinking about what we feel is right or wrong and go kill everyone we know and love ? Except for the few extremely brainwashed individuals, most of us would try to protect our families from the inevitable onslaught to come. Personally, I would give God the finger. But that's just me.

 

In conclusion: absolute "Universal Laws" dictating what is right and wrong are as far as we're concerned, nonexistent.

 

 

 

 

 

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Well of course in the silly epistemology of evolution you cannot know anything or say anything is wrong or right. Atleast you are a consistent atheist, but then you turn around and say evolution is fact but according to your own logic you cannot know that the evidence you would present for it is true because you cannot trust your five senses or as the article says "you could be interacting with the matrix". Right. So in the end you are either one of two things. 1 a hypocrite who knows there is objectivity but aren't willing to admit it or 2. a hypocrite who isn't willing to see the fallacy in your own logic. If you cannot know anything HOW CAN YOU CLAIM TO KNOW ANYTHING. But you like I know that you can, that there are laws to nature and that there is an order to this whole system and if u really believe that I or u couldn't know anything because we cannot know if what we are seeing or doing is being interpreted correctly by our 5 sense you wouldn't have even bothered copying and pasting this article.

 

You have completely and utterly failed to understand anything in that post. You are still rambling about objectivity in response to an excerpt which explains why you don't need nor can gain objectivity.

This is all I have to say to you:

 

 

[Ouroboros]

innocent blood would be babies and small children.

 

Small children are innocent, and God hates the shedding of their blood.

 

Phanta

Except when God commands it.

[Ouroboros]

Just as an aside, I think it is reasonable to say that anyone that claims to speak for God is either deluded or lying.

Of course.

 

 

 

The only Christian I ever challenged on this said that no sane Christian would kill his child thinking God told him to. He thought I was nuts for thinking him capable of such a thing.

Keyword: "sane."

 

Insane Christians would.

 

 

2. I do know becuase since you have no objective standard of morality you have subjective relativistic view of them. You already said if God told u to do something you think is wrong you won't do it, which tells me u see yourself and morals as being higher than God. Plain and simple

You have moved the goalpost.

 

You earlier argument was: morals are absolute.

 

Now you're arguing: morals are objective.

 

Two different things. I agree that some morals are objective, because many of them are based on the view from the collective, and not from the individual.

 

But that is not the same as absolute. Morals are not absolute.

 

In sum, morals can be subjective and objective, but they are not absolute. Agreed?

 

 

3. Cite me as saying I hear God speak and that I am the only one who hears him? I'll wait.

That's your attitude when you claim Andrea Yates did NOT hear God because you say so.

 

You judge others. Perhaps God did tell her to kill her children? Then she did something moral. How can you know? If the Bible have stories about people killing in the name of God and you defend their actions, then why do you not defend Yates?

 

From all I've read from you, I can only draw one of two conclusions: either you are insane or you are extremely immoral and evil.

[Kuroikaze]

I loath to even bring this into the discussion, but lest he continue on about this nonsense about Hitler being a atheist, here is a quote from one of his speeches.

 

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

 

 

and from Mien Kamph

 

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

 

 

perhaps he should take a look at this before he opens his big ignorant mouth.

 

http://www.skepticwiki.org/index.php/Hitler_and_evolution

[ContraBardus]

I loath to even bring this into the discussion, but lest he continue on about this nonsense about Hitler being a atheist, here is a quote from one of his speeches.

 

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

 

 

and from Mien Kamph

 

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

 

 

perhaps he should take a look at this before he opens his big ignorant mouth.

 

http://www.skepticwiki.org/index.php/Hitler_and_evolution

 

This has already been explained to him several times in detail over the course of this thread.

 

Some of us have upset him by being too rational, so he's stopped responding.

 

He's put Evolution 'in the same basket as the Easter Bunny' already.

 

I'm not sure how he came to that conclusion. By his rationality, his air conditioner, computer, car, airplanes, any appliances that exist, more than half of what he eats, any medicine he's ever taken, and any other Science based anything he uses on a daily basis should be in that same basket. They are all based on the exact same methodology, and have the exact same level of evidence they are true. All of those things are entirely based on theories.

 

I don't think he understands that 'Theory' means 'Explanation' not 'Guess'.

 

This one has no understanding how to research History or Science. Not even casually.

 

Here's how it works.

 

1. Science or Historical question comes up.

 

2, Search apologetic websites, ask Kirk and Ray or Kent Hovind for their answer.

 

3. Repeat that answer, claim victory.

 

4. Distract and change subject if challenged.

 

5. Ignore any answers that upset sensibilities or cannot be refuted because of factual basis.

 

Honestly. He claims Hitler claimed he was God, was a Satanist, and believed in Evolution all in the same topic. Each of those are mutually exclusive and are not compatible.

 

No one worshiped Hitler as a God, he was a modern political leader, not some ancient Pharaoh or Caesar. He was not an Evolutionist, he loved Darwin so much he banned his books in Germany, and the Satanic rituals stuff is known bunk. Hitler was obsessed with Archeology and the occult, but his focus was on Christian artifacts and the Christian occult.

 

His only citation for any of his claims so far is a 2,000 year old anthology of Jewish Fairy Tales, and a Youtube video of Christian Nazi Propaganda. Just the Christians attempt to deny they had involvement with something they caused. They might as well be denying the Inquisition, Crusades, Witch Huntings, and Conquistadors. It's the exact same thing.

 

His mind is well trained in the ways of his brainwashing. I doubt he's read anything outside of apologetic writings in years.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

I loath to even bring this into the discussion, but lest he continue on about this nonsense about Hitler being a atheist, here is a quote from one of his speeches.

 

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

 

 

and from Mien Kamph

 

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

 

 

perhaps he should take a look at this before he opens his big ignorant mouth.

 

http://www.skepticwiki.org/index.php/Hitler_and_evolution

 

And again you'd have to explain away all the occultism in he 3rd reich including hitlers love for Neitzche a highly anti-christian writer. The whole Aryan superman idea came from a book written by HP Blavatsky which was channeled by a spirit calling itself Djwal Khul. You'd have to expalin why over 6 million christians died in the holocaust as well (something under reported in the media). GW Bush is supposedly a christian all the while hes a member of a group called Skull and Bones aka the Order of Death. So simply because a person calls themselves a christian to appeal to a majority christian nation doesn't make that person a christian. And this skeptic site can try to down play hitlers use of social darwinism and the principals of natural selection and preservation of favored races and other key points to evolution in his justification for killing people but He did. If you get some time watch a movie called Mafaa 21.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

8. How are christians moving to destroy freedom of religion and speech pray tell?

 

Are you kidding me? Christians keep saying this a "Christian country" and are constantly trying to keep other view points from being heard. Don't even get me started on things like proposition 8 in California, it was a huge derailment of the democratic process enacted by your fellow Christians.

 

Wait wait are you telling me that christians are forcing people to accept christianity in the schools? The same school system that takes prayer out of school, takes Christ out of christmas, takes God out of the pledge of alegiance and removes manger scenes because they might be offensive? You mean the same school system that will not teach creation but will teach naturalistic (atheistic) evolution as if it were fact?

 

No these would be the schools where children who are atheists are ostracized and accused of all manner of things until their parents decide to home school them. The same schools where DESPITE the law stating that SCHOOL ORGANIZED prayer (individuals are still allowed to pray as much as they want under the law) is not allowed, teachers still do it all the time. And the same schools where idiots like you who ignore the mountains of evidence that evolution is a solid scientific theory, attempt to hijack the scientific process by forcing everyone to learn a set of ideas that do NOT pass the muster of scientific critique, by trying to sneak it into the school system instead of going through the peer review process that every other scientist uses.

 

By the by, I personally do not much care if "under god" is in the pledge or not, but it WAS added to the pledge in the 50's because of the red scare, it has not been there sense the beginning, the people who want in removed just want it put back the way it WAS.

 

The police? The same police who harass and trying to stop street preachers from street preaching? The same legal system that saw bible publisher zondervann sued because the NIV bible uses the word homosexual and that made a gay man feel bad? You mean the same government that is promoting New Ageism in the school system an in society as a whole? I think you atheist have a misplaced sense of persecution. Movies promoting atheism and liberal christiantiy are out and about in force. Religilous, the God that Wasn't There, For The Bible Tells Me So, Zietgiest 1&2, etc etc. Not to mention the history channel and its constant bashing of the bible in shows like Banned From the Bible. PUUUUHHHHLEASE, Oh and lets not forget everybodies favorite atheist Dawkins and his books and cult of personality movement. Gimme a break If we really had that kind of power these people wouldn't be around.

 

You mean the police who are by and large religious themselves? As most people in this culture are?

 

I do not see the government promoting "new ageism," but I can tell you as an atheist I would be against that just as much as I am against the government promoting Christianity. Which by the way, is the religion it USUALLY promotes.

 

Zietgiest is an unhistorical and uncritical piece of trash, so I do not count it for much.

The same thing with probably half the shows on the history channel, though I would say more than not they SUPPORT Christianity, or at the very least a rather unskeptical approach to religion.

I do find it interesting that you suggest if Christianity was powerful "these people" would not be around. Exactly how would you get rid of them if you are not trying to censor free speech huh? Busted much?

 

The reason all these voices have come out in recent years is not because Christians are such nice people and want to allow everyone else their say. The fact that you and your ilk have not been entirely successful at shutting us up does not prove you are not trying to do just that.

 

Yes, religion does not have as much power as it once did, but only a fool would assume it will stay that way. Throughout history when the church HAS more political power it has often been the worst offender of free expression one can find. The very reason you will not find a voice for atheism before the 18th century is because anyone who had raised their voice for it would have quickly found their head separated from their body. THAT is how the church gets things done.

 

How many atheists do you know would say this kind of thing about Christians

 

If we really had that kind of power these people wouldn't be around.

 

I know I wouldn't. If I were in charge I would continue to let you have your beliefs as long as you kept them to yourself. Apparently you do not care as much about free speech as you claim.

 

It is idiotic for Christians to try to ram their beliefs down our throats and then claim when we are persecuting them when we say "knock it off."

 

1. Really who have we tried to suppress? And when? And some christians say this is a christian country and the pilgirms and early american settlers where christians but I don't say that and even if they do say that so what? That doesn't equal your rights being suppressed.

 

2. Dude atheist in school is the rule nowadays rather than the exception. Are you talking about that girl who went to school in that small town. Big whoop. That doesn't prove christians are persecuting you. Gimme a break.

 

Individuals are praying and that some how offends you? But wait weren't u just complaining about restricting freedom of religion. Oh I guess thats only wrong until christians have their rights trampled on. Nobody is forcing you to pray nor are they forcing you to be a christian. So what is your gripe?

 

All over the country evolution is taught in the school and part of the set curriculum. When I was in catholic school as a boy I learned about evolution as if it were fact. Children aren't being taught creation in school they are being taught evolution. Now if you wonder why schools are failing miserably well thats a whole other topic for discussion. Now as for ignoring mountians of evidence you haven't seen or even read mountians of evidence. This is something atheist love to say but rarely can they back it up except with their usual mantras about evidence peer review and all that other jazz. You've never done the research, you've never been apart of the peer review process basically all you know is what the book tells you. No more no less. You can try to pretty it up and try to make yourself feel smart by calling me names but the fact still remains you don't know anything beyond what the scientiific community told u. And I find it funny that atheist think they are so smart for believing in something they have been indoctrinated by the state to believe since they were children.

 

 

3. What information are you basing this assertion on?

 

4. No you wouldn't oppose new ageism because all it states is that every religion including atheism should co-exist and are part of the same thing. What do you think Obama's speech in Germany was about. That was nothing but new age buzz words flying left and right. Maybe you didn't hear them but I did and many others heard it too.

 

5. On zietgiest yes I would agree. But the history channels shows on the bible and how books were supposedly left out of it and how christianity is actually a mix of different religions etc. They have an anti-christian slant. But I guess its in the eye of the beholder.

 

6. What christians have been trying to suppress these voices? Atheist have had a voice in the political arean world wide since before the communist revolution in russia. And they weren't suppressed by christians then. Nor are they suppressed now. What exaclty are you talking about? That could be said of any totalitarian power (and when you say the church say the vatican because they were the ones who had power and were killing chrisitans and suppressing the bible while they were at it). You think Hitler, Moa, Stalin, Pol-Pot etc allowed free expression? Certianly not. And you can actually find voices for atheism as far back as ancient greece. But thats not really the point of discussion.

 

7. Well seeing as how Stalin was an atheist and presecuted and killed christians, How modern day China is largely atheist and they kill and persecute christians, and how Pol-Pot was also an atheist and killed Chritians not to mention Hitler was a secular humanist and he killed lots of christians I'd have to say, I know quite a few. Not to mention Nitzche was famous for his rants and often inflammatory language about christians.

 

8. That's not even what I meant. If as you claim we are suppressing atheist and taking your rights away how is it that so many of you are around with little to no resistance in the media or in culure in general. I'm not saying I'd personally suppress you. Also we do not ram our beliefs down ur throat, we present the faith if you don't want to listen walk away. We aren't holding a run to your head, nor do we have you bound to a stake with a lit torch saying turn or burn. We don't do that. So please cut the victim act.

[Mriana]

 

 

I on the other hand say that God created the premise of right and wrong.

If God commanded you to murder a child, would you do it or would you disobey God?

 

I'm sure hitler would say something stupid like that seeing as how Germany was predominatly catholic and lutheran (which is nothing more than diet catholicism) but when we read the bible nothing that hitler did can be found in the teachings of Jesus.

Ever read the book of Revelation?

 

1. First I'd test the spirit that told me this wether it be of God or not. But if this was truly God saying yes kill this child yeah I'd do it.

 

That is SICK! You would actually kill a child if God told you to do it? What sort of sick deity do you worship? Glad I'm not Child Protective Services or I'd take you child just to protect him from such sickness.

 

So if God audibly told you to do something and you knew 100% that it was God you wouldn't do it if you didn't like it?

 

No. 1. IF I heard "God" I'd check myself into the nearest mental institution and request they R/O Schizophrenia. 2. I don't worship a sick bastard who would harm anything or anyone. IF your god would order such a thing, which according to the Bile he would, then you too are sick. I, personally, do not believe in harming anything or anyone. I do not intentionally harm anything or anyone and I didn't need any human created deity to tell me such a thing. What you stated is just plain SICK!

[Mriana]

 

2. That and God says killing children is wrong. You know...in the bible. Now its funny how atheist can get on their high horse about this when Hitler (a Darwin fanboy) killed millions in the of cleaning up the racial make up of Germany so that they can be restored to the Aryan superman. Hitler was a big eugenecist (evolutionary science taken to its most logical conclusion) even going so far as to write eugenecist in America praising their work in sterilizing blacks, handicapped and other social undesirables.

 

Actually, NO! The Bile does not say killing children is wrong. Have you read that damn book? Jephtha killed his own daughter as a burnt offering to God, Elija, old boldy had children killed, and there are more stories of children being killed in the Bile with God's approval. You obviously have not read that book. Gee, I never thought I'd say this, but you need to READ that book before you make any statements about it. Because you stated something that the Bible/God says this when it doesn't, you are no longer worth the bandwidth to even respond to anymore. You obviously do not know what the Bible says, which of course is suppose to be God's word, which it is not- it is Man's word and very errant, but be that as it may, since you attribute it as being God's word, you'd better read it before you make anymore false statements.

[Shyone]

 

No. 1. IF I heard "God" I'd check myself into the nearest mental institution and request they R/O Schizophrenia.

I started to respond to this thinking that FD wrote it. It would have been the first smart thing he wrote.

 

alas.

[Mriana]

 

No. 1. IF I heard "God" I'd check myself into the nearest mental institution and request they R/O Schizophrenia.

I started to respond to this thinking that FD wrote it. It would have been the first smart thing he wrote.

 

alas.

 

Nope, that was my response to that nitwit who doesn't even know his own book because he obviously has not read the damn thing.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

I loath to even bring this into the discussion, but lest he continue on about this nonsense about Hitler being a atheist, here is a quote from one of his speeches.

 

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

 

 

and from Mien Kamph

 

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

 

 

perhaps he should take a look at this before he opens his big ignorant mouth.

 

http://www.skepticwiki.org/index.php/Hitler_and_evolution

 

This has already been explained to him several times in detail over the course of this thread.

 

Some of us have upset him by being too rational, so he's stopped responding.

 

He's put Evolution 'in the same basket as the Easter Bunny' already.

 

I'm not sure how he came to that conclusion. By his rationality, his air conditioner, computer, car, airplanes, any appliances that exist, more than half of what he eats, any medicine he's ever taken, and any other Science based anything he uses on a daily basis should be in that same basket. They are all based on the exact same methodology, and have the exact same level of evidence they are true. All of those things are entirely based on theories.

 

I don't think he understands that 'Theory' means 'Explanation' not 'Guess'.

 

This one has no understanding how to research History or Science. Not even casually.

 

Here's how it works.

 

1. Science or Historical question comes up.

 

2, Search apologetic websites, ask Kirk and Ray or Kent Hovind for their answer.

 

3. Repeat that answer, claim victory.

 

4. Distract and change subject if challenged.

 

5. Ignore any answers that upset sensibilities or cannot be refuted because of factual basis.

 

Honestly. He claims Hitler claimed he was God, was a Satanist, and believed in Evolution all in the same topic. Each of those are mutually exclusive and are not compatible.

 

No one worshiped Hitler as a God, he was a modern political leader, not some ancient Pharaoh or Caesar. He was not an Evolutionist, he loved Darwin so much he banned his books in Germany, and the Satanic rituals stuff is known bunk. Hitler was obsessed with Archeology and the occult, but his focus was on Christian artifacts and the Christian occult.

 

His only citation for any of his claims so far is a 2,000 year old anthology of Jewish Fairy Tales, and a Youtube video of Christian Nazi Propaganda. Just the Christians attempt to deny they had involvement with something they caused. They might as well be denying the Inquisition, Crusades, Witch Huntings, and Conquistadors. It's the exact same thing.

 

His mind is well trained in the ways of his brainwashing. I doubt he's read anything outside of apologetic writings in years.

 

1. Really you guys use details? I thought it was proclaim your intelligence, call others stupid for not accepting your ideas and then talk about peer reviewed science and evidence you have no first hand knowledge of. Hmm I must have missed something.

 

2. I have a job sparky I can't be replying all day long.

 

3. I put it there because

 

1. Nobody has ever observed it

2. Its impossible to prove.

3. It proposes illogical theories such as life coming from non-life and humans coming from non-humans. Neither of which can be observed nor have they EVER been observed

4. Despite ranting and raving about PEER REVIEWS and MOUNTIANS OF EVIDENCE, the acolytes of evolution (I like that I'm going to use that from now on) much like the acolytes of global warming

have no first have interaction with the data in question, have no willingness to accept that the peer review process could be tainted by money, power and politics nor have any of them

acutally done the research. All you have is assertions that talk about something you really don't even know exist but take on faith it exist because some guy in a lab coat with PhD says

yes this is true and you believe it. For all intents and purposes you guys are religious zealots.

 

4. Those things mentioned are based on OBSERVABLE science. You cannot observe billions of years of evolution. And as an electronics technician and someone who builds computers for a hobby I can

can tell you how they work and test them to show they work. Before jumping on the science of food (i'm assuming you are talking about GMO food) I'd point you to a movie called the World According

to Monsanto.

 

5. So how exactly did they observe, test and retest billions of years of evolution?

 

6. I understand that fully and the "explanation" of evolution is stupid and unscientific.

 

7. OH but of course the great atheist minds on here know so much more.....right?? You guys never cease to amaze me with how arrogant and haughty you are. You read a few science magazines and swear

you know it all. Seriously get over yourselves.

 

8. No heres how it works.

 

1. Someone claims something is fact

2. I ask how do they know its fact

3. General atheist rant about evidence and peer review ensues

4. I question how they know the peer review was done honestly

5. General boasting in pseudo-intelligence and name calling ensuees

6. After several attempts to get an answer steps 3-5 are repeated without ever answerng how they know a given sceintific "fact" is actually "fact" and not just something they were told

and beleived because a scientist told them to.

 

9. No I said the Nazi's believed he was god or atleast a divine prophet and his occult group the thule society propped him up as one. And the fact that his top generals tried to blow him up and he lived didn't really help to quell that sentiment. Hitler was an occultist, as I said the whole Aaryan idea came from Madame HP Blavatsky who was satanist. The iconography of he Nazi part was all occult from the swastika, to the use of the runic alphabet, to him using astrologers to plot his military campaigns, why do you think Hitler was obcessed with Atlantis and the list could go on. Hitler was deep into the occult. Hitler did believe in evolution why do you think He believed he had to wipe out jews and other social undesirables? Why do you think he allowed SS officers to engage in polygamy? Why do you think he started the Labensborn program, why do you think Hitler sterilized so many people. It wasn't because Christianity made taht acceptable. Its because he wanted the Nazis to evolve into the Nazi superman and he believed that mixing with inferior races tainted their blood line and therefore they lost all of their mystic powers.

 

10. There is no such thing as christian occult that is a misnomer like intelligent atheist.

 

11. How did Christianity cause the holocaust? How did I have anything to do with that. Are you responsible for the red revolution that killed millions in china, the many atrocities of the atheist soviet union, or the atheist Khmer Rouge that killed millions in Cambodia/Vietnam? I love how you guys are quick to jump on the high horse but never willing to look at the blood on your own hands.

And as I expected you wouldn't watch the movie, i guess that great mind of yours is too full of itself to let any useful information in.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

 

2. That and God says killing children is wrong. You know...in the bible. Now its funny how atheist can get on their high horse about this when Hitler (a Darwin fanboy) killed millions in the of cleaning up the racial make up of Germany so that they can be restored to the Aryan superman. Hitler was a big eugenecist (evolutionary science taken to its most logical conclusion) even going so far as to write eugenecist in America praising their work in sterilizing blacks, handicapped and other social undesirables.

 

Actually, NO! The Bile does not say killing children is wrong. Have you read that damn book? Jephtha killed his own daughter as a burnt offering to God, Elija, old boldy had children killed, and there are more stories of children being killed in the Bile with God's approval. You obviously have not read that book. Gee, I never thought I'd say this, but you need to READ that book before you make any statements about it. Because you stated something that the Bible/God says this when it doesn't, you are no longer worth the bandwidth to even respond to anymore. You obviously do not know what the Bible says, which of course is suppose to be God's word, which it is not- it is Man's word and very errant, but be that as it may, since you attribute it as being God's word, you'd better read it before you make anymore false statements.

 

Actually yes it does.

 

Psalm 106:37-39 (King James Version)

 

37Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

 

38And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

 

39Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

 

Proverbs 6:16-18 (King James Version)

 

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

 

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

 

18 an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

 

Mark 9:42

 

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

 

Yes God does hate when people kill babies.

 

Now again are there times like with the Midianites or the Amalekites where God commanded everybody must be done away with even babies. Yes. That is the judgement of God. However the babies live in heaven forever so what is the big deal? And God can make and break His rules as He pleases.

 

And please hunny jump off the high horese. The bible is very erant? I smell that 100 bible contradiction cut and paste coming on. So predictable you guys are.

[Mriana]

Like I said, until you read the damn book your statements are worthless. This has nothing to do with whether or not an atheist is intelligent, this has to do with reading what you supposedly believe. You have not right to say we are not intelligent for calling someone stupid until you read what you supposedly believe. It is stupid to make the statements you have made when you have not read the book you supposedly believe- that would be a good example of stupidity. Stupid has nothing to do with intelligence. Stupidity has to do with lack of education and you obviously have not educated yourself about your own book. So, enough is enough and I for one have nothing more to say to you until you have actually educated yourself about your own book.

[Shyone]

 

Now again are there times like with the Midianites or the Amalekites where God commanded everybody must be done away with even babies. Yes. That is the judgement of God. However the babies live in heaven forever so what is the big deal? And God can make and break His rules as He pleases.

I'm glad you are at least aware of these verses.

 

As another on this board argued, perhaps you should kill all babies before they become atheists. That is what you are arguing for. Extermination of all infants and children.

 

"[T]he babies live in heaven forever so what is the big deal?"

[Mriana]

 

2. That and God says killing children is wrong. You know...in the bible. Now its funny how atheist can get on their high horse about this when Hitler (a Darwin fanboy) killed millions in the of cleaning up the racial make up of Germany so that they can be restored to the Aryan superman. Hitler was a big eugenecist (evolutionary science taken to its most logical conclusion) even going so far as to write eugenecist in America praising their work in sterilizing blacks, handicapped and other social undesirables.

 

Actually, NO! The Bile does not say killing children is wrong. Have you read that damn book? Jephtha killed his own daughter as a burnt offering to God, Elija, old boldy had children killed, and there are more stories of children being killed in the Bile with God's approval. You obviously have not read that book. Gee, I never thought I'd say this, but you need to READ that book before you make any statements about it. Because you stated something that the Bible/God says this when it doesn't, you are no longer worth the bandwidth to even respond to anymore. You obviously do not know what the Bible says, which of course is suppose to be God's word, which it is not- it is Man's word and very errant, but be that as it may, since you attribute it as being God's word, you'd better read it before you make anymore false statements.

 

Actually yes it does.

 

Psalm 106:37-39 (King James Version)

 

37Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

 

38And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

 

39Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

 

Proverbs 6:16-18 (King James Version)

 

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

 

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

 

18 an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

 

Mark 9:42

 

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

 

Yes God does hate when people kill babies.

 

Now again are there times like with the Midianites or the Amalekites where God commanded everybody must be done away with even babies. Yes. That is the judgement of God. However the babies live in heaven forever so what is the big deal? And God can make and break His rules as He pleases.

 

And please hunny jump off the high horese. The bible is very erant? I smell that 100 bible contradiction cut and paste coming on. So predictable you guys are.

 

Again, you just shown your god does approve of murdering children. You have not refuted that, which also shows your god is a sick bastard, who even killed his own child which was himself, thereby also committing suicide as well as murder. So, yes, your god does approve of child murder, which you have not disproved. Your god will kill any child whose parents do not follow said sicko. Again, you need to educate yourself about your own book. IF your god did not believe in such a thing, then said deity would not order it for even those who do not follow the sicko.

 

BTW, learn how to spell and don't call me hunny/honey. No, I won't get off my high HORSE because I've educated myself. The Bile is VERY errant and it is NOT the word of God, but rather the word of Man, inspired and written by Man with no divine intervention to it. One statement does not void a whole series of approved murders and to kill a child due to some audio hallucination is just plain stupid.

[qec]

 

Now again are there times like with the Midianites or the Amalekites where God commanded everybody must be done away with even babies. Yes. That is the judgement of God. However the babies live in heaven forever so what is the big deal? And God can make and break His rules as He pleases.

 

Um, I'll post it for you again dipshit:

 

 

Oh, let me guess, all the little babies the sadistic Ustashe tore out of those Serbian mothers' wombs with steely knives, they all went to Heaven right? So no big deal enh? And lemme guess, since I know you aren't Catholic: Since the eebul Roman Catholic Church instituted this particular genocide (Ustashe) then obviously all the innocent Serbian women who got held down, had their babies ripped from their wombs by Ustashe with custom made knives, later went to Heaven right? You see, all those Catholic Ustashe thought God commanded them, care to debate that asshole?

[Ouroboros]

And please hunny jump off the high horese.

"Hunny"? You mean "funny"?

 

And "horese" is that the same as "whores"?

 

So you meant to say: And please funny-jump of the high whores.

 

Yeah, it would be fun.

 

The bible is very erant?

The Bible is very a rant? Doesn't make sense.

 

I smell that 100 bible contradiction cut and paste coming on.

You smell that? Don't you know: He who smelt it, dealt it.

 

So predictable you guys are.

I bet you wouldn't predict this:

 

 

Ahahahahoogjjwqheeiidi jjbjbkclskadsurj

 

 

Did you expect me to write that? YOU DID! Wow! You're gooooood!

 

[Mriana]

ROFL! That was good HanSolo.

[Ouroboros]

ROFL! That was good HanSolo.

I gave up on trying to reach his feeble and dwindling afterglow of sanity, whatever is left after his vicious zombie religion's corruption. I think his favorite imaginary friend Jezombie ate most of his brain, so there's not much hope. But what can you expect from a "pee" brain.

 

Here is another fitting picture to symbolize FartDefenders amazing skills: