Attention Christians: Doesn't It Bother You?

[neo]

You willingly admit that you are not thinking logically. If Adam and Eve were without sin before eating of the fruit, if they were perfect beings, then they had no knowledge of right from wrong. Even with God telling them not to eat the fruit, they would have no concept of consequences. Long story short, it was a set up. God created sin, and wants an army of robots to ignore logic and reason to bow at his feet. Your God is selfish and egocentric and narcissistic. You're right. I'm not a robot. But you are.

 

You make a good point. They would have been like little children who cannot possibly understand the consequences of what they're doing. This is why we as humans don't put little children in prison!! Maybe God would but He has no say HAHA. The whole concept of Adam and Eve is just laughable IMO!! If you think they were actually the two first people on Earth, I mean. As a metaphor maybe not so laughable.

 

neo

 

 

Edit: added "IMO"

[Ouroboros]

Well my viewpoint I guess is..does God want to control us as robots or come to Him because we want to?

If God wanted us to all go to heaven cause he wants all His children there, then sure He could do that if He wanted to. Would that be because each and every one of you chose to go there? Would you want to be forced to love someone and worship him, or do it because you actually do love God? Or because by default we are like robots and get to be in His presence regardless.?

So it's better to have free will than free of sin?

 

Just think about this for a moment.

 

Most people feel a natural repulsion to killing or hurting someone else. Let's assume God put that in us. If God put that in us, it was for the purpose of guiding us to act according to some preset laws and force our free will to make a better choice. But if that's true, then we do not have a totally uncontrolled free will. Our will is monitored by some built-in processes that God put there. So free will doesn't trump making the right choices. Either God wants you to make the right choices or he allows you to make any choices you want. It's hard to allow both since they're opposite forces.

 

Put it this way, you put two bowls of candy in front of your kid. Then you tell the kid that he or she can choose any one of the bowls, but he/she must choose bowl number 1.

 

Is that a valid choice? Either you can choose freely, or you can't.

 

Christianity says that you can choose anything, and that God considered free will to be a good thing. But yet, you're punished (after death) for making the wrong decisions (using your free will against a preset condition) during life. And the exact conditions you have to choose are unclear. So basically, you have to guess and hope you guessed right. It sounds like Lotto to me, but if you lose, you lose time.

 

Which leads to, which religion would make you lose the most? The Muslim Hell sounds extremely terrifying, and so does the Catholic one. They do not only burn you, but they cut you up and hang you and drown you and ... So which religion would you gain most from? Not Christianity since that Hell is less painful than the others. And the rewards in some of the other religions are far greater than Christianity's version too, so you really picked a Lotto with smaller prize than you could have. Why?

[Abiyoyo]

 

A point or two to consider: Why should humanity have to suffer for Adam and Eve's sin? Why not just punish them? Or why couldn't he just forgive them outright.(He could easily have made as if they'd never eaten the fruit at all being the "All Being Master of Time Space and Dimension.") Most people think the idea of punishing children for their parents sake is horrible. By that reasoning, isn't Yahweh doing the same thing?

 

That statement in and of itself makes me believe in God more Tab! This is my point, as I was saying earlier.

 

All your questions if flipped around answer your question. A few key words you used here: suffer, punish, forgive. You feel that humanity has suffered. You feel the punishment (other than being moved from the Garden) should have been less. You feel that God should've just forgave us!

 

I really hope you are following me here in my line of thought.

 

Tab, Why are you upset? Should God have destroyed A&E, as Jonah felt God should have destroyed Nineveh?

 

You say God is holy and can't stand the presence of sin. Holy has another meaning, besides the one we've been taught. The original hebrew word is kaddoshwhich means other.

Essentially, God is transcendent, completely above humanity and creation.(Which may make my next statement confusing.)

 

If God can't stand the presence of sin, but yet is omnipresent(everywhere at once), why isn't every non believer on this site and in the world dead?

 

If A&E were disobedient and were cast from the Garden to Earth, Aren't we at a distance enough for God to still be God, and humans to be humans since we are still on Earth, laboring, pains from birthing, etc?

 

Has anyone found the Garden of Eden yet? Is it in the spot that scholars say it should have been? Could the Garden of Eden be the New Jerusalem from Revelations?

 

Who knows? We don't. We only know what was given to know, which, I think is a good bit.

Also, the idea that God can't stand the presence of sin makes it sound like he has a weakness aka how Superman is weakened by kryptonite. God is all powerful correct? He created the universe according to the Bible. Then surely he can be where sin is. Christ if he existed, lived in the human world, and associated with prostitutes, gamblers and tax collectors, those considered sinful. He was supposedly God in human form, but none of them died from his wrath.

 

The Book says why. God gave his spirit to a man, who He called His Son, to fulfill the Words of the Prophets. Also, a light to the Gentiles. I know, he didn't fulfill the Prophets words according to the Jews, right?

 

But, remember, he didn't fulfill those prophecies to the Jews 2000 years ago either, that why they killed Him, and today still say that he is a false prophet, not the Messiah.

 

Think about something here Tab. In the OT, who were the last men standing before/during/after the destruction of Israel?

 

The Prophets, not the group. The ones that sought God's word, answers, guidance. Why would the Jews be any different several hundred years later?

 

Who was Israel's King? Who did they choose to be there King during the time of Samuel?

 

Saul, right? Or is that right? It is correct, but it isn't because God wanted them to keep Him as their King and leader; but, the nation (group) wanted to be like all the other nations.

 

Questions I hope you research and answer.

 

1) How many Kings did Israel have from Saul to the end?

2) How many of those Kings were described in the Bible as righteous to God?

 

Last question. Who did God enthrone to be the King?

 

Makes sense to me. Solves two problems. One, God would be their King. Two, God would be their King in a tangible form they could see, touch, look at, admire, respect, hear etc.

 

Psalms 118

22 The stone the builders rejected

has become the capstone;

23 the LORD has done this,

and it is marvelous in our eyes.

[Ouroboros]

You make a good point. They would have been like little children who cannot possibly understand the consequences of what they're doing. This is why we as humans don't put little children in prison!! Maybe God would but He has no say HAHA. The whole concept of Adam and Eve is just laughable!! If you think they were actually the two first people on Earth, I mean. As a metaphor maybe not so laughable.

I once heard a Jewish rabbit explain that the act of A&E was not the first sin at all, but the first sin is in the Kain and Abel story. Adam and Eve disobeyed, but it wasn't the sin. The knowledge of good and evil introduced the ability to sin however, and they were not welcome in Eden because they now had that ability, not because they had sinned per se. And that explanation works better since the Bible also claims that God can't be in the presence of sin. So if A&E were sinners, and sinners can't be in the presence of God, but yet God and A&E were meeting up in the garden, it has to be resolved one way or the other. Either God can be in the presence of sin, or A&E didn't sin.

[Legion]

"Human thought is so primitive it's looked upon as an infectious disease in some of the better galaxies. That kind of makes you proud, doesn't it? huh?" - Kay, Men In Black

[Guest end3]

And you people wonder why a hell concept is with us....

[Legion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAlVKgl_zCQ

[Skankboy]

And you people wonder why a hell concept is with us....

Because a system that believe in an absolute authority HAS to believe that something awful happens to those that don't follow. If not, how the authority be considered absolute?

 

If A&E were disobedient and were cast from the Garden to Earth, Aren't we at a distance enough for God to still be God, and humans to be humans since we are still on Earth, laboring, pains from birthing, etc?

I always find it interesting how christians are constantly changing God's attributes to fit the situation. Isn't god omnipresent? If sin exists in the world and god can't be in the presence of sin, then the concept of "distance enough" is ludicrous. If you are saying that being case from the garden is just a metaphor for spiritual distance, than you destroy the story...

[Ouroboros]

And you people wonder why a hell concept is with us....

This place is Hell, yet you like it.

[Guest end3]

End I truly don't care if you are Christian or not. If you want to keep adhering to Christianity and defending it, then it's your business. It's your time and your mind. But so long as you do that then I'll have a certain set of lowered expectations for you.

 

What do you want from me?

 

If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't have lowered expectations tarhead.

[Abiyoyo]

I am willing to bet the version that talks about "hell unless you believe in me" isn't one of them.

 

 

 

John 3:18

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

That verse? Did you know that the word condemned in this verse is used in the minority of the rest of that Greek word. It is 'judges' in 88+ other translations. So, it could read.

 

18 Whoever believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe stands judged already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

Now, that doesn't sound so damning anymore, Does it?

[centauri]

People this is not an ultimatum worship me or die scenario. This is a come to me and live, I love you, I want to be with you, see I set up a system where your sins are washed away, your hearts can be clean in my presence type thing.

 

If you decide...now read this...YOU decide that loving God or worshipping him is not your cup of tea, or you dont have enough evidence, or whatever it is that you cannot believe in him, God says ok then, and it breaks his heart. He will not violate his created beings and force you into heaven to be with him. He wants YOU to choose Him. If you dont choose him, he isnt saying well bugger off then. He is just saying, thats really sad, however when you die there will be a place that you go to and it is a place where I cannot be because it is a place of sin and darkness.

From what I can tell, this is basically the “God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself” doctrine.

If a person truly has been granted “free will”, then they don’t have to have to go a place of sin and darkness.

The free will claim works both ways.

If God doesn’t force anyone to be in heaven then they can’t be forced to go to hell either.

The free will you’re advocating in this case is phony, it’s simply a conditional choice.

Unless the choice is genuinely free, your scenario is still an ultimatum.

I think you’re ignoring both sides of the equation, only recognizing one side and dismissing the other under the guise of the issuer of the ultimatum being holy.

If you owned a store and a group of street thugs asked you to pay them protection money or have your store vandalized, have they given you a free choice?

They are very sad about what will happen if you don’t choose to love them but it’s your choice and they won’t interfere with it because they gave you free will.

It’s all very unfortunate but they are holy and cannot stand to have a rebellious sinful person in their neighborhood..

[Guest end3]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

[Skankboy]

What up with you End? You seem reaaaaaalllly touchy these days?

[Deva]

John 3:18

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

That verse? Did you know that the word condemned in this verse is used in the minority of the rest of that Greek word. It is 'judges' in 88+ other translations. So, it could read.

 

18 Whoever believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe stands judged already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

Now, that doesn't sound so damning anymore, Does it?

 

Actually, to me yes it does. I am already "judged" if I don't believe in the name of God's one and only son. Me and many, many others.

[Skankboy]

Now, that doesn't sound so damning anymore, Does it?

And what happens to those judged and found lacking? I don't think changing the context of one word is really changing the message here.

 

The point you're missing is that not every religion has the same "all or nothing" attitude that christianity has.

[Legion]

You know what End? Fuck you. That's right. Fuck you.

 

Somehow I'm supposed to give you the freedom to be a Christian, but I'm not supposed to have my own expectations of them. I suppose I should ask you what I should expect from Christians.

 

Tell me End. What should I expect from Christians? What kind of behavior can I anticipate?

[Tabula Rasa]

A couple thoughts from the OP:

 

First, I have to salute Kathlene for being the first one to tackle the subject. It's not an easy one, and she did her best to express her opinion of it.

 

Second, Abiyoyo, from what I've read of your posts, you're starting to sound quite a bit like a Christian Universalist like Gary Amirault and the folks at Tentmaker.org. Have you read anything from their site?

[Ouroboros]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

And still you love this place.

[Guest end3]

What up with you End? You seem reaaaaaalllly touchy these days?

 

It's just really disheartening for y'all to take someone like Kathlene and run her through the grinder. I mean shit. You profess about people coming to get to know you and your thoughts and then dismiss knowing them and theirs when they do stay and start searching.

 

And yeah, I do enjoy it here for the people and the willingness to search for God.....in decent conversation.

[Guest end3]

Somehow I'm supposed to give you the freedom to be a Christian, but I'm not supposed to have my own expectations of them. I suppose I should ask you what I should expect from Christians.

 

Yeah, it's called grace.

 

Tell me End. What should I expect from Christians? What kind of behavior can I anticipate?

 

 

No, you are the one that was claiming moral highground....."I am disappointed that you are an ignorant Christian that knows no better".

[Tabula Rasa]

What up with you End? You seem reaaaaaalllly touchy these days?

 

It's just really disheartening for y'all to take someone like Kathlene and run her through the grinder. I mean shit. You profess about people coming to get to know you and your thoughts and then dismiss knowing them and theirs when they do stay and start searching.

 

And yeah, I do enjoy it here for the people and the willingness to search for God.....in decent conversation.

 

I don't think that you're giving Kathlene enough credit. It was brave of her to address my topic. She's not a shrinking violet, and while I don't agree with her, I have to admire her for expressing what she believes. As for Legion being dissapointed, I was disappointed to when I found out she'd reconverted. And all Legion did was express that disappointment, he didn't say anything bad about her.

[Guest end3]

What up with you End? You seem reaaaaaalllly touchy these days?

 

It's just really disheartening for y'all to take someone like Kathlene and run her through the grinder. I mean shit. You profess about people coming to get to know you and your thoughts and then dismiss knowing them and theirs when they do stay and start searching.

 

And yeah, I do enjoy it here for the people and the willingness to search for God.....in decent conversation.

 

I don't think that you're giving Kathlene enough credit. It was brave of her to address my topic. She's not a shrinking violet, and while I don't agree with her, I have to admire her for expressing what she believes. As for Legion being dissapointed, I was disappointed to when I found out she'd reconverted. And all Legion did was express that disappointment, he didn't say anything bad about her.

 

And what about your god Tab? Your thoughts about God being so large. Where is this god in the midst of this mess?

[Vigile]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

 

???

 

Start making sense dude. Trying to travail your posts is like running through a gauntlet of innuendos, half-formed thoughts and dialect.

[Deva]

It's just really disheartening for y'all to take someone like Kathlene and run her through the grinder. I mean shit. You profess about people coming to get to know you and your thoughts and then dismiss knowing them and theirs when they do stay and start searching.

 

And yeah, I do enjoy it here for the people and the willingness to search for God.....in decent conversation.

 

End, you have not done much to contribute the decent conversation part here. Kathlene has not been run through the grinder. Not yet. Legion only said he was "sad and disappointed". He was simply expressing his honest feelings, but there was no sarcasm or condemnation suggested. It is YOU who have departed from polite discourse. You know what the Lion's Den is, and so does she. She has been around here long enough to know what it is to express xian views here.

 

Kathlene is not "searching". She has expressed a definite position that she is now an xian. Many of us are no longer searching for God. We are done -- and can I get an AMEN to that from my fellow heathens!