Attention Christians: Doesn't It Bother You?

[Legion]

End I have had lots of grace for you. If you don't know that by now then you never will. I have damn near befriended you in an environment where it is hazardous to do so.

 

But at the moment, I definitely get the feeling that you are trying to control me. My mind is my own! You hear me motherfucker? I am free to both have and express my feelings. And I am free to reason I wish. You're the one who's in a fucking prison, not me.

[Vigile]

You know what End? Fuck you. That's right. Fuck you.

 

Somehow I'm supposed to give you the freedom to be a Christian, but I'm not supposed to have my own expectations of them. I suppose I should ask you what I should expect from Christians.

 

Tell me End. What should I expect from Christians? What kind of behavior can I anticipate?

 

My best guess is he sees K's reversion as some sort of victory, like the lost sheep being brought back into the fold and now he is getting defensive because he views us as wolves.

[Guest end3]

You know what End? Fuck you. That's right. Fuck you.

 

Somehow I'm supposed to give you the freedom to be a Christian, but I'm not supposed to have my own expectations of them. I suppose I should ask you what I should expect from Christians.

 

Tell me End. What should I expect from Christians? What kind of behavior can I anticipate?

 

My best guess is he sees K's reversion as some sort of victory, like the lost sheep being brought back into the fold and now he is getting defensive because he views us as wolves.

 

 

It's a victory Vigile in the fact that she is happy. I am dismayed at the fact that some can't choose grace as a response for her decision.

[Tabula Rasa]

What up with you End? You seem reaaaaaalllly touchy these days?

 

It's just really disheartening for y'all to take someone like Kathlene and run her through the grinder. I mean shit. You profess about people coming to get to know you and your thoughts and then dismiss knowing them and theirs when they do stay and start searching.

 

And yeah, I do enjoy it here for the people and the willingness to search for God.....in decent conversation.

 

I don't think that you're giving Kathlene enough credit. It was brave of her to address my topic. She's not a shrinking violet, and while I don't agree with her, I have to admire her for expressing what she believes. As for Legion being dissapointed, I was disappointed to when I found out she'd reconverted. And all Legion did was express that disappointment, he didn't say anything bad about her.

 

And what about your god Tab? Your thoughts about God being so large. Where is this god in the midst of this mess?

 

 

Everwhere End,absolutely everywhere.In the stars of the Andromeda galaxy. In Kathlene's house, in the bottom of the ocean.In the computer and keyboard I'm typing on. In me. In every molecule and subatomic particle that composes me. In every particle that composes Legion, or you or anyone or any living thing. My concept of divinity does seem to change a lot, but the basic concept I have is a god who is both transcendent and immanent. That is, ever present in all creation and simultaneously outside it. One that is not only Beyond. But Beyond BEYOND.

 

I don't know the true nature of "God", but I think it's safe to say "he" is not a cosmic bully who would need or want praise or worship or would torment those who dared not worship him.

 

Of course this means we, and I just don't mean those of us on this tiny planet, but any sort of life that exists in the cosmos is completely on it's own. A bit disheartening, but better than the idea of the Supreme Being being so insecure it has to be constantly reminded how great it is.

 

End, I don't have any real beef with you or any christian.What I have a beef with, is the idea of the divine being a tyrant.

[Vigile]

It's a victory Vigile in the fact that she is happy. I am dismayed at the fact that some can't choose grace as a response for her decision.

 

Ok, fine, she's happy. We aren't knocking on her door trying to proselytize her here. I think she's a nice person. I'm not going to let someone else stifle my opinions on other's expressed opinions just because someone else wants to play Rodney King.

[chefranden]

End I truly don't care if you are Christian or not. If you want to keep adhering to Christianity and defending it, then it's your business. It's your time and your mind. But so long as you do that then I'll have a certain set of lowered expectations for you.

 

What do you want from me?

 

If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't have lowered expectations tarhead.

 

Legion didn't lower his expectations which is why he was disappointed.

[chefranden]

I am willing to bet the version that talks about "hell unless you believe in me" isn't one of them.

 

 

 

John 3:18

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

That verse? Did you know that the word condemned in this verse is used in the minority of the rest of that Greek word. It is 'judges' in 88+ other translations. So, it could read.

 

18 Whoever believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe stands judged already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

Now, that doesn't sound so damning anymore, Does it?

 

Did you know that scholars must have thought that the context demanded condemned, because that is the way it is mostly translated here? And just for the record it does sound just as damning, for what do you suppose that judgment means here? Why do you keep trying to get the fear and trembling out of working out your salvation?

 

One thing I admire about fundies is their willingness to stick to the text and not nicen it up. In point of fact God, if real, is made out by the text to be an asshole. Fortunately for you there is no God so you can believe what ever nonsense you like and still get by, because non-entities don't generally give a shit about what you believe.

[Guest end3]

Ok, fine, she's happy. We aren't knocking on her door trying to proselytize her here. I think she's a nice person. I'm not going to let someone else stifle my opinions on other's expressed opinions just because someone else wants to play Rodney King.

 

Oh gheeze, there's an intelligent remark. Exactly what I am describing. "We are enlightened and claim this morality without God, yet when pushed.....I am not going to stifle my opinion for their happiness". And it's not forced dumbass....it's a choice for her out of love.

 

Proselytizing? The question was addressed to Christians!

[chefranden]

What up with you End? You seem reaaaaaalllly touchy these days?

 

Oh for goodness sakes, End has always been touchy. He's one of the most consistent members of the board.

[Vigile]

Ok, fine, she's happy. We aren't knocking on her door trying to proselytize her here. I think she's a nice person. I'm not going to let someone else stifle my opinions on other's expressed opinions just because someone else wants to play Rodney King.

 

Oh gheeze, there's an intelligent remark. Exactly what I am describing. "We are enlightened and claim this morality without God, yet when pushed.....I am not going to stifle my opinion for their happiness". And it's not forced dumbass....it's a choice for her out of love.

 

Proselytizing? The question was addressed to Christians!

 

We'll, I'm not convinced you'd recognize an intelligent remark if you saw one. I also, unlike you, don't believe this feel good nonsense called 'I'm ok, you're ok.' How do you know she's not happy because she doesn't live in fear of being on the wrong side of the wrathful god anymore? Is that really happiness? A lot of xians profess happiness. I did. When in fact I was constantly wracked by guilt because you can't sneeze without sinning in that faith. She's still here. She knows we say what we think. You are the only one here trying to suppress free speech.

 

As far as I can tell only those who wish to maintain some sort of control over others are offended by the free flow of opinion. It's not like anyone was being rude to her.

 

And you really need to work on your reading comprehension. I never accused K of proselytizing. In English, which you are only vaguely familiar with, 'we' refers to I and others with me.

[necrosmith]

If I put a gun to your head and give you the choice to blow me or get your brains blown out, is that free will?

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Actually, to me yes it does. I am already "judged" if I don't believe in the name of God's one and only son. Me and many, many others.

 

No offense Deva, but it is only taken how the reader wants to take it. In light of the rest of the NT, it fits for me as not so damning for a few reasons.

 

Even condemned doesn't sound so damning in contrast to other verses in relation to that verse quoted by Christ and others. Paul said we are condemned to ourselves and this world of sin.

 

Here is an example of why I don't see it as damning also.

 

Criminal is arrested and brought to the judge for a hearing. Is the criminal brought to be condemned, or brought to be judged based on the case? The later, right?

 

Why is this not the same in this case? The person is judged already, instead of condemned already. That to me is a extreme difference. Though that person may already be judged, that doesn't mean necessarily that they are guilty, or condemned. But, if they are condemned already, then there is no judgment, just condemnation. Right?

[chefranden]

If I put a gun to your head and give you the choice to blow me or get your brains blown out, is that free will?

 

Absolutely, because I'd make you ever so sorry you came up with the idea in the first place.

[Abiyoyo]

Now, that doesn't sound so damning anymore, Does it?

And what happens to those judged and found lacking? I don't think changing the context of one word is really changing the message here.

 

The point you're missing is that not every religion has the same "all or nothing" attitude that christianity has.

 

Forms of judgment are common in many religions, so I think it falls in line to make a difference here. As I said to Deva, there is a difference between condemned and judged.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Second, Abiyoyo, from what I've read of your posts, you're starting to sound quite a bit like a Christian Universalist like Gary Amirault and the folks at Tentmaker.org. Have you read anything from their site?

 

No, I have heard of them and maybe could be refreshed to some of their views, but I haven't explored their stances that I recall.

[Deva]

Actually, to me yes it does. I am already "judged" if I don't believe in the name of God's one and only son. Me and many, many others.

 

No offense Deva, but it is only taken how the reader wants to take it. In light of the rest of the NT, it fits for me as not so damning for a few reasons.

 

Even condemned doesn't sound so damning in contrast to other verses in relation to that verse quoted by Christ and others. Paul said we are condemned to ourselves and this world of sin.

 

Here is an example of why I don't see it as damning also.

 

Criminal is arrested and brought to the judge for a hearing. Is the criminal brought to be condemned, or brought to be judged based on the case? The later, right?

 

The suspect has had a criminal charge brought against him. Someone has accused him. In the case of what we are discussing, why is the charge even brought? If you are totally innocent isn't it almost equally depressing? Being forced to defend yourself before a judge? I think you are picking through this and trying to find a way to make it seem better.

 

Why is this not the same in this case? The person is judged already, instead of condemned already. That to me is a extreme difference. Though that person may already be judged, that doesn't mean necessarily that they are guilty, or condemned. But, if they are condemned already, then there is no judgment, just condemnation. Right?

 

I am not following why this is so much better. To me, this whole idea of God as a judge just doesn't fly at all, given the arbitrary, capricious and random events of life.

[Abiyoyo]

End I have had lots of grace for you. If you don't know that by now then you never will. I have damn near befriended you in an environment where it is hazardous to do so.

 

But at the moment, I definitely get the feeling that you are trying to control me. My mind is my own! You hear me motherfucker? I am free to both have and express my feelings. And I am free to reason I wish. You're the one who's in a fucking prison, not me.

 

 

***wondering if that goes for me too ****

 

 

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

 

Everwhere End,absolutely everywhere.In the stars of the Andromeda galaxy. In Kathlene's house, in the bottom of the ocean.In the computer and keyboard I'm typing on. In me. In every molecule and subatomic particle that composes me. In every particle that composes Legion, or you or anyone or any living thing. My concept of divinity does seem to change a lot, but the basic concept I have is a god who is both transcendent and immanent. That is, ever present in all creation and simultaneously outside it. One that is not only Beyond. But Beyond BEYOND.

 

I don't know the true nature of "God", but I think it's safe to say "he" is not a cosmic bully who would need or want praise or worship or would torment those who dared not worship him.

 

Of course this means we, and I just don't mean those of us on this tiny planet, but any sort of life that exists in the cosmos is completely on it's own. A bit disheartening, but better than the idea of the Supreme Being being so insecure it has to be constantly reminded how great it is.

 

End, I don't have any real beef with you or any christian.What I have a beef with, is the idea of the divine being a tyrant.

 

If you believe that this Supreme being is the ultimate representation of God, that the God of the Bible is not that representation, (and) if you believe Christ represented that as well; then that would make you Gnostic.

 

 

Of course, we still have the Christ problem.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Did you know that scholars must have thought that the context demanded condemned, because that is the way it is mostly translated here? And just for the record it does sound just as damning, for what do you suppose that judgment means here? Why do you keep trying to get the fear and trembling out of working out your salvation?

 

One thing I admire about fundies is their willingness to stick to the text and not nicen it up. In point of fact God, if real, is made out by the text to be an asshole. Fortunately for you there is no God so you can believe what ever nonsense you like and still get by, because non-entities don't generally give a shit about what you believe.

 

 

Which scholars? Around Constantine? John is documented to be written (in full length) around 300AD. I think the earliest other form of John is a few verses in chapter 18, which date 50-100AD.

 

So, there you have it fellow Ex-C'ers. An official possible completely altered book of the NT, John. All Textus Receptus. Which Chef, would mean, John was written either by late followers that adhered to the early church, or written by the early church itself.

[Vixentrox]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

Is name calling a sin? Just curious. Didn't your loving god send some bears to kill children who were name calling?

[Guest end3]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

Is name calling a sin? Just curious. Didn't your loving god send some bears to kill children who were name calling?

 

I would think that if I had evil intentions for the outcome, then yes it was a sin.

[Vixentrox]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

Is name calling a sin? Just curious. Didn't your loving god send some bears to kill children who were name calling?

 

I would think that if I had evil intentions for the outcome, then yes it was a sin.

Like those evil intentions of kids name calling? Good to know an appropriate punishment is death by mauling.

[Guest end3]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

Is name calling a sin? Just curious. Didn't your loving god send some bears to kill children who were name calling?

 

I would think that if I had evil intentions for the outcome, then yes it was a sin.

Like those evil intentions of kids name calling? Good to know an appropriate punishment is death by mauling.

 

And the appropriate "punishmnent" for adults?

[Vixentrox]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

Is name calling a sin? Just curious. Didn't your loving god send some bears to kill children who were name calling?

 

I would think that if I had evil intentions for the outcome, then yes it was a sin.

Like those evil intentions of kids name calling? Good to know an appropriate punishment is death by mauling.

 

And the appropriate "punishmnent" for adults?

I don't know, but perhaps you best be on the lookout for bears.........your loving god may decide to strike you down.

[Abiyoyo]

No, the point is, you boneheads can't practice what you preach, and then when you are called on it, you say, "we don't have rules". WTF?

Is name calling a sin? Just curious. Didn't your loving god send some bears to kill children who were name calling?

 

I would think that if I had evil intentions for the outcome, then yes it was a sin.

Like those evil intentions of kids name calling? Good to know an appropriate punishment is death by mauling.

 

 

 

***thinking***

 

 

And then, in the year 2000AD many people began to advance, become smart, build things unlike any other time. Money was the height of civilization, in a form of currency. Rare metals were made into decorations for many people, also rare jewels were added to these decorations added tremndous value to them.

 

Many people searched high and low for these precious stones, especially one called the diamond. People wanted these diamonds so badly, and they were at such a high demand, that the suppliers were getting limited. You see, the money the companies acquired from the sales of these decorations was very substantial, and any losses would have greatly impacted their companies. This is also the same of the Great credit crisis that happened some years later in America, as the big companies kept trying to make more and more money.

 

These decorations became so in demand, and so limited that other resources were needed, in new regions, unprotected regions, uncivilized regions. The diamonds became popular in certain parts of Africa, and were much cheaper than through other companies.

 

This caused what was called, The Blood diamonds.

 

Some of these regimes and militias made little children become soldiers, shooting people on sight.

 

-------------------------------

Vix, children are not always so innocent, especially when they are ungoverned, unregulated, from primitive societies, unethical influences.

 

The story I just said is true actually, and children were as deadly as an adult with the right equipment.

 

Maybe those kids were armed with something?

 

Before you say ridiculous, first, think about it because IMO it would be just as ridiculous for a greater prophet to have struck down some kids for no apparent reason other than calling him a name.