Exchristianity And Sexuality

[The-Captain]

I think you are a form of troll in here.

 

I begin to suspect as well, no one can be that blindingly ignorant of the distinctions.

[florduh]

Actually, one of the things about Jesus that really freaks me out is that he liked to hang out with prostitutes and criminals. That is a no no for me. And them somewhere I heard that if Jesus were alive today he would be hanging out with gays as well. That totally sucks.

Nice. Prostitutes, criminals and gays, oh my! You are either a troll or a very sick pup.

 

I think the solution for your sexual problem is to go fuck yourself.

[Mothman]

I called it first!

[Brought None]

No, no, no

 

Yes. Yeeees. Ohhhh God yes!!!

 

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape!

[florduh]

I called it first!

Win to Mothman.

 

(and I thought you were just legend)

[Yrth]

Actually, one of the things about Jesus that really freaks me out is that he liked to hang out with prostitutes and criminals. That is a no no for me. And them somewhere I heard that if Jesus were alive today he would be hanging out with gays as well. That totally sucks.

Nice. Prostitutes, criminals and gays, oh my! You are either a troll or a very sick pup.

 

I think the solution for your sexual problem is to go fuck yourself.

[pause] Wot, proper fucked?

[ElrondHubbard]

I think there is a lot of good discussion going on here, but to respond to the initial question:

 

Has anyone who is an exchristian here experienced problems in their sex life after leaving the religion? I don't necessarily mean physical problems, but psychological; a little voice in the back of your head warning you that "if you have sex before marriage you'll (A. ruin your sexual experience with your future husband (B. commit a devious and evil sin and be damned (C. become a dirty slut or (D. regret this experience for the rest of your life and wish you had remained a virgin until marriage."

 

Yes. I had all of these fears, and all of these doubts. I had *some* sexual experience in a committed Christian relationship before I left the church, but it was hardly enough to prepare me for the whole buffet of sexuality that exists outside of religion. After leaving, I went through a couple of years of sexual ambivalence; testing the "slutty" waters, if you will, while trying to find my own sexual values outside of religion. It was mildly satisfying, and by ignoring that little voice I learned that:

 

(A. Not likely. First of all, I no longer define myself, my worth, and my life-path in terms of some fairy-tale man that is waiting out there for me. I set my own goals, take my own paths, and occasionally, if there is an attractive man in the picture, I sleep with him. If I did decide to get married, it sure wouldn't be to a man who saw me as "tainted" by my previous experience, or to a man who couldn't sexually satisfy me (not a tall order, with reasonable communication in place).

 

(B. Maybe, but I can't imagine that a God who refuses to intervene in massive genocide really gives a shit who puts their penis in my vagina. Just saying.

 

(C. I have a LOT of objections to the term "dirty slut." It has crappy misogynist undertones, and I believe that sexuality is personal.

 

(D. I don't regret any of my sexual experiences, and, in retrospect, can't even see what the big deal was. Don't get me wrong - I don't think sex is trivial - but I lost my virginity to somebody I loved deeply, and every sexual experience since has become a part of who I am (sexually) today. They weren't all satisfying, but they were all "worth it."

 

Since realizing that I needed to get out of the Catholic faith, I've been learning to be more independent and think for myself, live my life the way I want to. But what I've been taught in the church about sex before marriage still creeps into my head at the worst moments. I absolutely hate it. I'm trying not to be afraid of sexuality, of intimate touching, of nakedness, or of sex itself, but the word "DIRTY SIN" is sometimes yelled so loud in my mind it makes me stop. Now, I believe that two people who are in love and have sex is perfectly fine, but apparently old beliefs and teachings don't die easily.

 

I'm slowly getting over it and I'm learning more about love. I wanted to hear from any other people who may have had problems like this after their deconversion and if/how they got over it.

 

Girl: I identify with you completely. I've been where you are, and I came out okay on the other side. Here is what I did: I absorbed information, ideas, and experiences from new, non-christian friends, I took the time to work out my values, and I adjusted my boundaries as I grew into my new ideals.

 

It just takes time, and you have to learn to trust yourself.

 

You might not be okay with sexual touching, nudity, etc. right now, and that's okay. I wasn't comfortable with them at first, either. It's okay to be afraid, it's okay to feel weird, and it's okay to tell a guy who is pressuring you to fuck off (even though you know that Jesus-related bullshit is the only reason you're uncomfortable in the first place). Give yourself time to grow into your new, non-religious skin, and everything else will fall into place.

 

Good luck

[ElrondHubbard]

p.s. - incidentally, I just came across this. The article - and the comments that follow - address a few of the issues you mention. The parent site (jezebel.com) is really worth following. As a young woman seeking to broaden my own horizons, and expose myself to new ideas, it's been an indispensable resource.

[jradetzky]

I think that this is one attitude that leads to sexual dysfunction within marriage. Having a sexually aggressive, horny wife/husband after years of careful celibacy and avoidance of sexual situations could really mess a person's mind up. If sex produces disgust, it won't change after marriage.

I agree 100%, well said. I think you have the most reasonable views on this forum.

[jradetzky]

Actually, one of the things about Jesus that really freaks me out is that he liked to hang out with prostitutes and criminals. That is a no no for me. And them somewhere I heard that if Jesus were alive today he would be hanging out with gays as well. That totally sucks.

Nice. Prostitutes, criminals and gays, oh my! You are either a troll or a very sick pup.

 

I think the solution for your sexual problem is to go fuck yourself.

It's true. I just cannot worship a dude who befriends dodgy characters. I'm 100% with the Pharisees on that. Sorry.

[jradetzky]

I think one of the reasons why even the though of having sex was so scary for me as a teenager (and as a young adult) was because of a word attached to the issue: "pure". I always heard talks about sex from Catholics saying "stay pure" and referred to sex out of wedlock as a "mistake" and "sinful". So for me, I viewed sex as something EXTREMELY life changing, a HUGE decision that had to be made with extreme care, and that I had to abstain from it until I was married.

 

Luckily, I have a very loving and understanding boyfriend and he's helped me realize that having sex with the person you love, unmarried or married, is natural....

 

 

The only thing I have to be careful of now is that my Catholic parents back home don't find out...I'm so scared what they would say or do if they found out.

And do you plan to marry? If not, do you have a rough estimate how many people you're going to have sex in your life?

[jradetzky]

Unfortunately, the world seems to be black and white: crazy bible banging Christians who don't sleep around vs atheistic sex freaks with no values. Hard choice.

 

Wow. Judgmental much? I'm an atheist. The only person I've ever had sex with is my husband, and we didn't have sex until our wedding night.

 

Think about that.

This sounds absolutely fantastic! At last someone who acted reasonably. Unfortunately, you seem to belong to a minority. I want to be like you when I grow up.

[Objet_trouve24]

(A. ruin your sexual experience with your future husband

 

Yes, add to that "or make it so noone would ever want you for a serious relationship". I actually already believed that part as a christian, because I actually believed no one would ever want to marry someone who "struggles with same-sex attraction". Imagine my surprise when I actually started dating straight men! I was worried that being bisexual would make it so that no worth-while man would want to be with me, and that having sex, especially with women, would make monogamous sex in a marriage not as good. As it turns out, it's a dirty, despicable, cruel lie. I've been with men, women, threesomes, open relationships...surprise! Monogamous marriage comes as naturally to me as breathing. I'm married to a wonderful guy who loves me for me. Tell that voice in your head to shut the hell up! He's a lying little bitch, and would love nothing more than to make your sexual life a living hell.

 

(B. commit a devious and evil sin and be damned

 

Not so much now, but I used to. Believing "once saved always saved" didn't help either, because I believed that being comfortable doing those "devious and evil" sins was a sign you were never saved. I'm quite past that now.

 

Remember that looking in lust is supposedly the same as doing it. If you're damned by the super sinful, you were already damned from seeing a Victoria's Secret ad or some guy at a swimming party. It doesn't sound comforting, but this is actually where the freedom comes from. If it's true, god is evil and not worth worship. Come party at our place in hell. If it's not true, god will know your heart and know that sex is normal and natural and not worth eternal suffering, or he doesn't exist and you'd be wasting your life worrying about it.

 

(C. become a dirty slut

 

Yeah, but I can't say I was wrong. Repression led to seriously acting out. Take it from me though, being a slut is not as horrible as you'd think, and it is ALWAYS a choice. Be self-controlled, don't hurt people with sex... if you're going to be one, be an "ethical slut". It's a term that means you don't enable cheaters, care at least a little about your partners (many prostitutes might as well be psychologists as well). I remember sleeping with a guy once who hadn't had sex in 8 years since his wife died. It sounds slutty at first when I say we never spoke after that night and I met him in a sleazy bar, but the guy showed me pictures of his wife and cried on my shoulder. I gave him something wonderful that I would NEVER take back), and never go for threesomes if someone might get hurt. Slut is a title of honor to me now, not one of shame and desperation. I don't think a guy is worth being with if he can't respect you as a sexual being. You don't have to bang everyone in the whole world, but I don't see why it's a big deal to enjoy sex. I love every person I've had sex with even now. I love that I was able to care for them, even if it was just for a night, even if they don't even remember me.

 

(D. regret this experience for the rest of your life and wish you had remained a virgin until marriage."

 

Yeah, I thought that when I was a virgin, and a little after my first big break up (that can't be taken to seriously, I also wished I'd never been born and wished the coffee shop I'd met her in had never existed...while I was sitting in it). I think everyone who has a break up thinks stuff like that, but you can't hide under a rock all your life for fear of getting hurt, and you can't walk around regretting things in life that you can't change. My husband and I have a great sex life, in part because I learned through my partners. We have a good relationship, in part because I learned from mistakes with my exes. He's only been with two or three people besides me, but I just couldn't become right for him the same way he became right for me. Everyone has to learn different lessons in different ways. Some of us have trouble learning and need it beat into our skulls, some people pick it up quickly. But everyone has to endure pain. My husband went through something more horrible than a lot of shit I've been through.

 

My point is that regret is only going to keep you stuck in a cycle. Learn from it and move on as best you can. Be a good and kind person. You'll be ok. If I can be a crazy psychotic nymphomaniac and wind up married and happy, I promise there is hope!

 

And remember above all that it's your body, you have a responsibility to take care of it, and that you are in control. If you make a bad decision, don't pretend you're an out of control godless heathen. Own up to your mistakes, and learn from them. And PLEASE be safe!

[Objet_trouve24]

One thing I forgot to add was that because of that word, "pure", I assumed that everyone who made the mistake of having premarital sex was somehow "dirty" or un-pure. So the thought of losing my virginity before marriage was a scary and unattractive thought. I had always thought that people who did that were doing something so wrong and so sinful.

 

 

I had a friend who went through that. She married very young and he turned abusive. She fought and struggled for years because of the purity thing, and finally got divorced. She went through a time of messing around, and found out she really liked sex, and felt free to love herself. She didn't feel impure, she felt happy, and free. It wasn't scary at all. She's re-married now and very happy. I believe they're trying for a kid.

[Objet_trouve24]

I, too, would like to know how sex without commitment makes one a pervert.

Okay then, let's look at the following three examples: a promiscuous individual, a gay, and a pedophile. Who is the sexual pervert here? Fifty years ago homosexuality was considered a sexual perversion/mental illness but now society has fully accepted it.

 

What about pedophilia? The social agreement is that it is a perversion and a crime. But I'm quite certain society will accept it as normal in a one hundred years or so. Progressive society, assertive and smart kids, you know.

 

My point is that it doesn't even make sense to talk about sexual perversion because there is no absolute standard, right? Moral relativism and a permissive society where anything goes depending on the changing times.

 

Homosexuality doesn't cause PTSD. Congrats, you're an idiot.

 

I call troll.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Has anyone who is an exchristian here experienced problems in their sex life after leaving the religion? I don't necessarily mean physical problems, but psychological; a little voice in the back of your head warning you that "if you have sex before marriage you'll (A. ruin your sexual experience with your future husband (B. commit a devious and evil sin and be damned (C. become a dirty slut or (D. regret this experience for the rest of your life and wish you had remained a virgin until marriage."

I ended up backsliding in my late teens and first engaging in sex while still technically a Christian, though a fairly liberal-minded one by that time. There was guilt/fear over that, especially when I was pushed by my parents into a fundamentalist student group on campus (during a time when I was no longer sexually active). After leaving, I found the much more positive view of sex in Paganism very freeing, but although I did experiment with some things I don't believe I ever "went wild." I had one very committed (as in, we were engaged) open relationship but didn't ever sleep with someone else like he did. For whatever reason, I just didn't want to.

 

Due to other issues I stopped dating and having sex several years ago. A crush last summer got me to start dating again but now I am finding that something is causing psychological problems a little similar to what you mention above. This isn't taking the form of a little voice saying, "You're being dirty/sinful," but instead, intense and wordless feelings of -- I think, because it's been hard for me to figure out how to describe it -- shame, worthlessness, anger at myself, and despair. I described this a little over here, though I neglected to mention that what the situations that bring this on involve loving touch and the possibility or actuality of nudity* (I have issues about this which were pretty much avoided in the past several years by not dating). I haven't figured it all out yet but perhaps it's not a good example for this thread; I've worked through the old Christian ideology about sex enough that I think this is not the cause of my reaction, though like I mention in the other thread, it looks like "worm theology" could have something to do with it.

 

* There is a different component of this which deals with some specific fears I have regarding body issues. This other part -- the feelings of shame that seem different than the fearful self-talk -- is a real puzzle, and when it comes up it has been a serious problem.

 

 

Extremes are usually negative.

Agreed. Most of the sexual attitudes I have seen in my own or others' lives have not been extreme. I'm wondering how it is that you haven't found those with more moderate views where you are.

 

So, when you have a one-night-stand do you just assume the probability of pregnancy is equal to zero? That is self-delusion. Do you ask yourself the question "if something were to go wrong, would I like to have and raise a child with this person"? Or you just say "if something goes wrong, we'll just abort and whatever"?

With consistent and correctly-used good forms of birth control, the probability of pregnancy is very, very close to zero. Yes, it does make sense to ask yourself the question of what you'd do if one occurred anyway, just in case. For me the answer would have been abortion. However, I knew I never wanted kids and went to the extent of getting surgically sterilized to make sure this wouldn't happen. So the chance of me getting pregnant is so close to zero that it really isn't an issue. (Yes, there still is an incredibly small statistical chance. Pregnancies after sterilization tend to be ectopic, which would have to be aborted for medical reasons, anyway.)

[MultifariousBirdLady]

So...let me get this straight.

 

Having lots of sex makes you impure/dirty/perverted. This leads to the conclusion that the sex itself is dirty.

 

And you're supposed to save this filthy act for the one you love? And ONLY the one you love? Because having sex outside of this format leads you to become...desensitized?

 

I think that this is one attitude that leads to sexual dysfunction within marriage. Having a sexually aggressive, horny wife/husband after years of careful celibacy and avoidance of sexual situations could really mess a person's mind up. If sex produces disgust, it won't change after marriage.

 

I think this is unfortunately very true.

 

In my case, there also seems to be some kind of problem just accepting someone touching my body in a loving or sexual way, now. Like I don't deserve it or something. It seems to go beyond the issues I originally thought were the cause.

[jradetzky]

With consistent and correctly-used good forms of birth control, the probability of pregnancy is very, very close to zero. Yes, it does make sense to ask yourself the question of what you'd do if one occurred anyway, just in case. For me the answer would have been abortion. However, I knew I never wanted kids and went to the extent of getting surgically sterilized to make sure this wouldn't happen. So the chance of me getting pregnant is so close to zero that it really isn't an issue. (Yes, there still is an incredibly small statistical chance. Pregnancies after sterilization tend to be ectopic, which would have to be aborted for medical reasons, anyway.)

Technology, technology, technology. Modern man solves everything with technology, to the point that it has become a religion in itself.

 

Anyways, I think I'd never have sex with someone I wouldn't like to have a child with or care deeply for.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

If not, do you have a rough estimate how many people you're going to have sex in your life?

 

Does this really matter that much?

 

I mean, really. If all these encounters are consensual, respectful, and loving, what's the problem?

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Technology, technology, technology. Modern man solves everything with technology, to the point that it has become a religion in itself.

The very natural desire to have sex without fear of pregnancy has probably been around as long as humans have understood the connection. Technology makes this safer and more assured, but the drive has been there for millennia. I would say that it's natural.

 

Anyways, I think I'd never have sex with someone I wouldn't like to have a child with or care deeply for.

Yes, I want to have sex with someone I care deeply for. But I don't want children, no matter how much I love my partner.

[CelticWhisper]

With consistent and correctly-used good forms of birth control, the probability of pregnancy is very, very close to zero. Yes, it does make sense to ask yourself the question of what you'd do if one occurred anyway, just in case. For me the answer would have been abortion. However, I knew I never wanted kids and went to the extent of getting surgically sterilized to make sure this wouldn't happen. So the chance of me getting pregnant is so close to zero that it really isn't an issue. (Yes, there still is an incredibly small statistical chance. Pregnancies after sterilization tend to be ectopic, which would have to be aborted for medical reasons, anyway.)

Technology, technology, technology. Modern man solves everything with technology, to the point that it has become a religion in itself.

 

Anyways, I think I'd never have sex with someone I wouldn't like to have a child with or care deeply for.

 

Technoogy is not a religion. It is the pinnacle of our application of our knowledge of the sciences. No gods created the space shuttle - we did. Furthermore, we have scientific bases for understanding our technology and knowing how it works. It's not tainted with the disease of faith.

 

And why the hell shouldn't we solve our problems with technology? It works and improves our quality of life. Religious people who try to hold us back (like that asshole Joe Ratzinger) should be taken out back and shot.

 

If you want to reserve sex for people who meet your criteria, that's fine, but go around calling people sluts and perverts and you're liable to take a few fists to the mouth. Just letting you know.

[TelevisionKiller]

And do you plan to marry? If not, do you have a rough estimate how many people you're going to have sex in your life?

 

That last line is a weird and awkward question, one that I can't answer.

 

Right now I'm in a very wonderful relationship (my first real relationship) and the thought of having sex with someone other than my boyfriend hasn't even crossed my mind. He's had some sexual experiences before, and I hadn't, so he knew how to gently ease me into a new experience, and I was afraid, but willing, because I wanted to follow my heart and what I was feeling, rather than listen to the old voices in my head.

 

At the moment I'm in this relationship for the long run, and I hope we stay together. I don't know about marriage. We are only both 20 and have very busy lives, and he plans to go into the military this fall.

 

Thanks for all your great responses, you all have great advice to share.

[godlessgrrl]

Has anyone who is an exchristian here experienced problems in their sex life after leaving the religion?

 

Sort of. My problems were always with this:

 

One thing I forgot to add was that because of that word, "pure", I assumed that everyone who made the mistake of having premarital sex was somehow "dirty" or un-pure. So the thought of losing my virginity before marriage was a scary and unattractive thought. I had always thought that people who did that were doing something so wrong and so sinful.

 

Associating sex and sexuality with the language of pollution strikes me as one of the unhealthiest things religion has done to humanity. Sex is many things: how we make more people, a way to bond with a beloved partner, an expression of desire, a highly pleasurable activity - but it is not a moral or spiritual pollutant. Yet the belief persists, as does the belief that sex makes someone dirty, unlovable, or less worthy of respect - less human, in other words, and all that dehumanization entails.

 

This is especially true for women. It is a very hard lesson to learn, that there are far too many men out there who believe that a sexually active woman is not worthy of basic human respect and does not deserve love, because she has dared to act on her desires. I've certainly had the misfortune of getting romantically entangled with a guy or two like this, and it's not a pretty sight - especially when they don't judge their own sexual escapades in the same moral light as those of the women they'll happily shag.

 

My Notorious Bible-Thumping Ex™ was one such fellow. With him I came smack up against the belief that sexually active women aren't human. It fucked royally with my sexual identity for awhile, I tellya. I had problems with sex for awhile because I internalized that message, that fucking made me worthless trash. It wasn't true, but it took quite some work to undo.

 

It is a toxic thing to attach a person's worth as a human being to their sexuality. It ends up meaning that when you fuck someone (or feel attracted to them), suddenly they aren't really a person anymore, and you can freely treat them like garbage. I can't live with relationships like that, so these days I'm very selective about who gets allowed into my bed. Christians, fundies, and misogynists need not apply.

[Ancey]

One thing I forgot to add was that because of that word, "pure", I assumed that everyone who made the mistake of having premarital sex was somehow "dirty" or un-pure. So the thought of losing my virginity before marriage was a scary and unattractive thought. I had always thought that people who did that were doing something so wrong and so sinful.

I have a friend who wears an abstinence ring, and she even expressed disdain for the word pure on it- and even said "as if having sex makes me any less pure."

 

Personally, I've never had issues with sex- I don't think you have to be married to be committed and have sex and love. I haven't fallen in love (I've had crushes and such, but I'm too young in my experiences) so I haven't had sex. Simple as that. (and don't look at me wrong, I'm not even in college yet)

 

Of course, you get problems with unsafe sex... But that's not quite related to the topic.