LNC Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 I think he got a point, but I don't think it's your fault. The original question was obviously a bit vague. Jewish could mean different things. But the intention was of course to ask if someone who is of the Jewish faith will go to Hell for not believing in Jesus. Your answer suggests that both Jews and Christians go to heaven, and that it's not necessary to believe in Jesus. Do I understand you correctly? No, my answer does not suggest anything about who will go to heaven, that question was not asked, the question was whether Anne Frank would go to hell for being Jewish and I answered that question accurately according to what the Bible states. No one goes to hell for being Jewish or Muslim or even atheist. That is not the criterion on which God judges. LNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 When considering LNC's answer, look carefully even at the revised question. It asks, "If you were god...." This leaves open the ability for someone to answer the question from what "they" would do, not what the bible says bible god would do. That is a good distinction, but if I was God I assume that I would make the same judgment that God would as one of the characteristics of God is perfect justice, so I don't think I would make any different judgment as the true God, otherwise, I wouldn't really be God. LNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 That passage is commonly understood to be a later addition and not a part of the original text, therefore, it is not a passage from which I would use to argue. Can you make your case from another passage? LNC I thought it was all the divine word of god, and now you're saying that it's part bullshit and part the glorious word of god. Could you please post an LNC annotated bible, to show we reprobates which parts of the buy-bull is usable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. I do not thing the bible specifies any exception to this. Well, maybe the baptism thing, but not the requirement of belief. That passage is commonly understood to be a later addition and not a part of the original text, therefore, it is not a passage from which I would use to argue. Can you make your case from another passage? LNC I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I honestly do not see the point, as I do not find any of the bible credible at all. Maybe someone else would care to find other passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 There was no equivocation, LK asked a particular question and I answered the question. To equivocate means: Use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself. (Google Definitions) I used very clear and concise language to answer a very clear and concise question. There was no concealing of truth or avoidance of the question, I answered it as it was asked (Yes or no) and then explained my answer. Sorry if you didn't like it, but you are mistaken in your assessment. You were equivocating, very obviously, and now you are lying about it. You say "No, no one goes to hell for being a Jew." No they don't, they just go to hell for not believing in Jesus, which is a direct result of one's upbringing as a Jew. You know this, yet you attempted to shroud your "No" answer with the phrase, "No one goes to hell for being a Jew." Then you follow it up with more of the same when you say, "No one goes to hell for being an Atheist." You know full well that this is mincing words to a desired effect. This is equivocation and is intellectually dishonest. If you can't admit that and be straight, your posts aren't worth reading at all, and you have little value in places like this. This type of motherfuckery is simply too transparent to push past thinking people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 I think he got a point, but I don't think it's your fault. The original question was obviously a bit vague. Jewish could mean different things. But the intention was of course to ask if someone who is of the Jewish faith will go to Hell for not believing in Jesus. Your answer suggests that both Jews and Christians go to heaven, and that it's not necessary to believe in Jesus. Do I understand you correctly? No, my answer does not suggest anything about who will go to heaven, that question was not asked, the question was whether Anne Frank would go to hell for being Jewish and I answered that question accurately according to what the Bible states. No one goes to hell for being Jewish or Muslim or even atheist. That is not the criterion on which God judges. LNC Oh, c'mon. You know very well what he was asking. "Councilor, define the word "is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 The problem with questions directed generally to Christians like the one posed in the OP is the bible. One can read just about anything they want into the bible, and the great number of Christian denominations, many of whose adherents condemn those in other denominations as not being "true" Christians, proves this point. The only way to make such a point as the question attempts, is to determine the specific beliefs about hell that the target audience has and then ask the question in terms of their beliefs. Otherwise, the bible gives Christians so much wiggle room, you can never pin down a skilled debater like LNC. And I would be quite surprised if LNC would actually tell us his beliefs concerning the criteria by which god will condemn someone to hell. Rather, he will only respond to our interpretations of the bible leaving us to guess through question after question what his beliefs on the subject are, thus avoiding responding to the true intent of the question. And that intent, it seems obvious to me, was will bible god condemn a person to hell for not believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior, despite the fact that the person at issue was unmercifully brutalized and murdered during this life though they had done nothing wrong to deserve such horrible treatment? The question sets up a very difficult situation. Not only was the person unjustly treated in this life, but the question forces one to consider whether god will have no mercy on such a person with his eternal judgment simply for their lack of belief. There is a sort of double jeopardy in which a person who is treated with no mercy during life must stand before a god who also will show that person no mercy. Ultimately, then, the question forces one to consider what is the difference between the Nazis and god when it comes to mercy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 The question sets up a very difficult situation. Not only was the person unjustly treated in this life, but the question forces one to consider whether god will have no mercy on such a person with his eternal judgment simply for their lack of belief. There is a sort of double jeopardy in which a person who is treated with no mercy during life must stand before a god who also will show that person no mercy. Ultimately, then, the question forces one to consider what is the difference between the Nazis and god when it comes to mercy Very eloquent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. I do not thing the bible specifies any exception to this. Well, maybe the baptism thing, but not the requirement of belief. That passage is commonly understood to be a later addition and not a part of the original text, therefore, it is not a passage from which I would use to argue. Can you make your case from another passage? LNC If it is commonly understood, why does it remain in printed Bibles? Welcome back! Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklady Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 While the question is directed at christians, and the only one to respond, skirted the issue very well, I thought that I would put in the scriptures that, during the time that I was a christian (20 odd years) were always with out exception used to say that - unless you accept jesus as your lord and saviour (jesus -,not god, yahweh etc)you would spent eternity without god, in hell, punishment etc to me they are pretty clear, anyone, jew, muslin, atheist, etc, they are doomed forever, no mercy,no second chance, whatever you call it, there is no way around it according to scripture - Anne would be in hell - John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 I thought it was all the divine word of god, and now you're saying that it's part bullshit and part the glorious word of god.Could you please post an LNC annotated bible, to show we reprobates which parts of the buy-bull is usable? You don't need my versions, you simply need to read a good English version of the Bible. If you read in any English Bible you will find that that section has been footnoted or bracketed with an indication that it is not found in the original. Take a look at BibleGateway NIV (bracketed comment) NASB (footnote) ESV (bracketed comment) NKJV (footnote) It is because we have such a rich manuscript history that we know that this was a later addition. It is another reason that we can be confident of what was in the originals. LNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 You were equivocating, very obviously, and now you are lying about it. You say "No, no one goes to hell for being a Jew." No they don't, they just go to hell for not believing in Jesus, which is a direct result of one's upbringing as a Jew. You know this, yet you attempted to shroud your "No" answer with the phrase, "No one goes to hell for being a Jew." Then you follow it up with more of the same when you say, "No one goes to hell for being an Atheist." You know full well that this is mincing words to a desired effect. This is equivocation and is intellectually dishonest. If you can't admit that and be straight, you posts aren't worth reading at all, and you have little value in places like this. This type of motherfuckery is simply too transparent to push past thinking people. You apparently are not familiar with the term equivocation. Read my earlier post in which I give simple definition. You are still wrong about what sends a person to hell. A simple reading of the Bible will clear that up. It says that the demons believed in Jesus and trembled (because they knew that they knew who he was and that they were doomed), why did their belief not earn them heaven? So, it is not belief in Jesus that affects a person's eternal destination. No, it is not that a person is an atheist that earns them hell. I am not equivocating, in fact, I am trying to help many of you here to avoid this type of equivocating, which you have done even in this post. If you claim to be a thinking person, then you may want to apply your intellect to read the Bible and find out what it actually says instead of misrepresenting it based upon hearsay information that you have gleaned from sites like this one. LNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 You apparently are not familiar with the term equivocation. Read my earlier post in which I give simple definition. You are still wrong about what sends a person to hell. A simple reading of the Bible will clear that up. I am very familiar with the term and those who engage in these diversion tactics, such as yourself. I have very little use for these types, since their game is "win or stale mate". It simply isn't worth my time. Belief in Christ (his sacrifice & resurrection) is the hallmark requirement for salvation. Study it yourself, you are the Christian. If you would like to play on words a bit longer, do it alone. e·quiv·o·ca·tion –noun1.the use of equivocal or ambiguous expressions, esp. in orderto mislead or hedge; prevarication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 You were equivocating, very obviously, and now you are lying about it. You say "No, no one goes to hell for being a Jew." No they don't, they just go to hell for not believing in Jesus, which is a direct result of one's upbringing as a Jew. You know this, yet you attempted to shroud your "No" answer with the phrase, "No one goes to hell for being a Jew." Then you follow it up with more of the same when you say, "No one goes to hell for being an Atheist." You know full well that this is mincing words to a desired effect. This is equivocation and is intellectually dishonest. If you can't admit that and be straight, you posts aren't worth reading at all, and you have little value in places like this. This type of motherfuckery is simply too transparent to push past thinking people. You apparently are not familiar with the term equivocation. Read my earlier post in which I give simple definition. You are still wrong about what sends a person to hell. A simple reading of the Bible will clear that up. It says that the demons believed in Jesus and trembled (because they knew that they knew who he was and that they were doomed), why did their belief not earn them heaven? So, it is not belief in Jesus that affects a person's eternal destination. No, it is not that a person is an atheist that earns them hell. I am not equivocating, in fact, I am trying to help many of you here to avoid this type of equivocating, which you have done even in this post. If you claim to be a thinking person, then you may want to apply your intellect to read the Bible and find out what it actually says instead of misrepresenting it based upon hearsay information that you have gleaned from sites like this one. LNC The problem is that it does say belief is necessary. I guess one can interpret the bible however. As far as wanting to "apply [my] intellect to read the Bible....", I once cared to study the bible often. After I realized it was bullshit, I decided I had better things to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 2, 2010 Super Moderator Share Posted September 2, 2010 If you claim to be a thinking person, then you may want to apply your intellect to read the Bible and find out what it actually says instead of misrepresenting it based upon hearsay information that you have gleaned from sites like this one. The Bible "actually says" different things to different people, depending on their wishes and prejudices. I glad YOU have the correct understanding. Now you can tell the 30,0000 other Christian sects to go to hell. How dare you challenge the people here to "read the Bible." There are former pastors and Biblical scholars here. People who can read the original languages. People who were sincere, prayerful believers and Bible students. Let's clarify the original question for you and your singular understanding of the Scriptures. A person suffers terrible mistreatment and misery all his life while faithfully worshiping his god through the false religion of his parents. He does not believe Jesus died for his sins. Will this poor, misguided person meet with Jehovah's wrath and spend eternity in Hell? I mean according to what the Bible actually says, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 NIV (bracketed comment) NASB (footnote) ESV (bracketed comment) NKJV (footnote) LNC The glorious word of god, divine guidance to his creation, needs footnotes, comments, inclusions, exclusions, and interpretation to understand. I'm damn glad at least YOU got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 If you were God would you send Anne Frank to Hell where she would suffer forever for being Jewish? Yes or No No, no one goes to hell for being Jewish. LNC love a good equivocation. lnc you're pathetic. There was no equivocation, LK asked a particular question and I answered the question. To equivocate means: Use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself. (Google Definitions) I used very clear and concise language to answer a very clear and concise question. There was no concealing of truth or avoidance of the question, I answered it as it was asked (Yes or no) and then explained my answer. Sorry if you didn't like it, but you are mistaken in your assessment. LNC No I'm not. Your whole history is one equivocation after another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 No, she would not suffer forever for not believing in Jesus. LNC Christianity confuses me so much. Almost every Christian I know would say yes, that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will suffer in hell forever, including Anne Frank. LNC doesn't dare say what the book really says, he knows it's bad for PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. I do not thing the bible specifies any exception to this. Well, maybe the baptism thing, but not the requirement of belief. That passage is commonly understood to be a later addition and not a part of the original text, therefore, it is not a passage from which I would use to argue. Can you make your case from another passage? LNC Oh, how convenient... yes, I am in 'snotty bastard' mode today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 btw, even if every last word of the NT as we have it was exactly as in any original manuscript - which there probably never was one of anyway - do you know what that would mean? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Fiction is fiction is fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 At least LNC would make a more compassionate God than the psycho-monster we've been presented with. What's always bothered me is that one's personal conduct and works and character are never mentioned as "means of salvation". Even when I was a Christian that bothered me the most. I mean, it's all about "licking God's boots", regardless of my "atrocities" or wretched character? To philosophical people, this has never made sense. The whole idea of "worship" to me has been warped through the centuries of Christian theology. Yeah, as in worshiping the clerical establishment and their elitism is more like it. I think eventually Christianity will have to become a more philosophically logical system or it will die out as a "childish cult" of the Shallow. No "Universal Mind" of exquisite enlightened consciousness would torture humans for eternity. The whole premise is absurd. Created by barbarians, to frighten barbarians, devalue those who were different, and bully people into accepting submission to the religious-military complex of the middle ages and beyond. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 If you were God would you send Anne Frank to Hell where she would suffer forever for being Jewish? Yes or No No, no one goes to hell for being Jewish. LNC Not that right religion, you burn right. Of course your going to be talking about sins and all. But its really just who believes in the right books right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 No I'm not. Your whole history is one equivocation after another. If this guy has been like this for some time (historically), I really can't imagine why anyone here still gives him the time of day. If my suspicions are correct, he is, in the end, just a Bruce Metzger parrot and not that smart. I think he has been given far too much credit for not much of anything and he is void of any type of intellectual integrity, which makes him worthless as far as a forum such as this is concerned - IMHO that is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 No I'm not. Your whole history is one equivocation after another. If this guy has been like this for some time (historically), I really can't imagine why anyone here still gives him the time of day. If my suspicions are correct, he is, in the end, just a Bruce Metzger parrot and not that smart. I think he has been given far too much credit for not much of anything and he is void of any type of intellectual integrity, which makes him worthless as far as a forum such as this is concerned - IMHO that is. He's a Habermas bot, and incredibly he's probably the most creditable Xtian we've seen around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 If you were God would you send Anne Frank to Hell where she would suffer forever for being Jewish? Yes or No Pretty much shows how little you know about the Bible LK. It would be a no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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