Why am I a Christian?

[rhuntermt]

rhuntermt:  Lemme guess.  Montana rabbit hunter?  Rock hunter?  hmm.

 

Welcome to the forums.  I'll let you get a little more cozy before I start attempting to dismantle your faith.  You sound like you are ok so far.  You should talk to Amanda.  You sound like you've both reached similar conclusions about things.

 

Nice to have you here.

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Logical guesses. Keep guessing.

 

Look forward to hearing from this Amanda. Have a daughter by that name. Bright, capable, strong willed, but could be a little less argumentative. Hope it's not name-related.

 

So, fatten the new boy up, eh? Then invite him to the feast, right? Just don't let on that he's the main entree'. [Could you pass those mashed potatoes, please? And the butter?]

 

Thanks again for the welcome - nice tone I'm hearing here.

 

RH

[Mythra]

I'd say reality hunter, but, since you're still looking to the bible for answers, I think we can effectively rule that one out.

[crazy-tiger]

Who ordered the sacrifice, and do I have to pay for my portion?

 

 

 

 

Kidding... welcome, oh one who really sounds like a Deist.

[Mythra]

United_Church_of_Religious_Science.htm

 

rhunter: you and amanda both sound like you are from this church.

[rhuntermt]

A hearty welcome rhuntermt,

Saves people from what? You ruled out a wrathful god so no need to be saved from my 'sins'.

 

You ruled out hell,  in the sense of a conscious place of torture, endless or otherwise.

 

Saves people from what?

If you cannot fathom your consciousness simply expiring then why would you believe some obscure non-gentile rebbe needs to restore it?

Escape velocity requires lightening the load; dropping the baggage so to speak. From what I've read so far I'd say you're doing fine other than the 'Christ Diver's Belt' wrapped around your consciousness. After all this progress I'd hate to see you wind up stuck in the belief system territories (postmortem) while the rest of us curls(consciousness, usually intelligent) continue to be perfected and united with the Whole.

 

I wouldn't fret the 'God in Christ saves people' thingee... Amanda says we've already been 'saved' (cosmic force feeding?) so maybe it'll all pan out.

 

My best to you and enjoy your stay.

 

cheers,

cho

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Chohan:

 

The stay has already been enjoyable, thanks much. Smiling and chuckling over your image of Christ's Divers Belt - that's good!

 

Don't overweight the tense of the verb in my expression of faith: "God in Christ saves people." I'm good with Amanda's past tense of already saved. Already, not yet. As in, saved from death, but we're not quite dead yet. Saved from death, that's the from what. Full, conscious-less, post-mortem non-existence, above all. But also from many lesser states of death we repeatedly experience based on how we live. Like in hating our adversaries. Or our neighbors. Or our family members from time to time.

 

Why an obscure non-gentile rabbi, indeed! Somewhere I heard that demographers estimate that 170 billion humans have existed to this point in time. If we are to have any confidence that life is to be restored - som basis in hope - then it's nice to have at least one example from this line-up. But why just one, and why this one? That's a bigger discussion than I have time for just now, but I do look forward to discussing it with you and hearing your perspective back. Excellent question.

 

Finally, because my hope aligns with Amanda's, I expect you'll have to put up with us both in the Whole despite whatever Diving Belts we each will be wearing.

 

RH

[rhuntermt]

Ok, I'll bite: why are you a christian?

 

Ha ha! Just teasing - welcome, rhuntermt!

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Thanks, whoever you are. Who are you? I see a quote, but no ID - is that permitted? Haven't you guys found a way to slip back into legalism yet? Good thing I joined, and just in time, apparently.

 

RH

[rhuntermt]

I'd say reality hunter, but, since you're still looking to the bible for answers, I think we can effectively rule that one out.

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Glad I left this open to, uh, speculation. That's a five, can I getta ten?

 

RH

[rhuntermt]

Who ordered the sacrifice, and do I have to pay for my portion? 

Kidding... welcome, oh one who really sounds like a Deist.

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CT:

 

Thank you for the welcome. Good to finally see one of you . . . I think. ;-)

 

RH

[rhuntermt]

United_Church_of_Religious_Science.htm

 

rhunter:  you and amanda both sound like you are from this church.

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Mythra:

 

Thanks for the link - I've saved it to inspect later. Not familiar with this group, curious to see what they're about, and where.

 

RH

[SkepticOfBible]

Greetings from a newly registered member.  The registration process included a prompt to identify the deity or deities to which I subscribe.  I chose to defer my response to this, my first post here, in order to avoid as much stereotyping as possible (not to accuse any here unjustly).

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Welcome to the forum.

 

I can relate, although in my case my faith/convictions were changed rather than entirely lost.  My epiphany was like what so many of you have described: a sense of liberation, of discarding of incoherent, heavy baggage.  Having had this experience, and having observed reactions here that parallel my own, I have no interest in persuading any of you who are satisfied with the conclusions you have reached to abandon those conclusions.  It would be heinous of me to do so.  I am however interested in dialoguing with members here about reasons against and for Christian faith, and if in the process of our dialogue some less satisfied lurkers find light either way, then good has come from it.

 

Please don't run away if we ask difficult questions

 

That said, after my epiphany I remained a Christian as defined by this statement of faith which admittedly may not meet the measure of Christianity generally: God in Christ saves people.

 

Oops here comes the difficult questions

 

1)As someone asked. Save people from what?

2)"God in christ saves" Lets see some OT scriptures to back that up

 

 

That is probably plenty for introductory purposes, but it may also help some here to better understand if like Chesterton I define my belef by some things I do not believe in.  This may make our dialogue more productive.  So, I do not believe in:

 

1.  Hell, in the sense of a conscious place of torture, endless or otherwise

2.  That God is wrathful toward life (including us)

3.  That the obscure rabbi in question was God, rather than a particular manifestation of God

4.  That the Bible is an inerrant/infallible source of truth

5.  That other sources of other truth do not exist

6.  That some end time, cataclysmic apocalypse is racing down upon us (unless we ourselves bring it about through WMDs, environmental destruction or other looney actions)

 

The bible however contradicts you how many accounts

 

cya

Pritish

[spamandham]

As best as I can articulate it at this moment, I have an overwhelming urge to life.  I cannot fathom my consciousness or anyone else's simply expiring, and I long deeply for transformation so that your conscious existences and mine are perfected and united in such a way to no longer be subject to constraints of this time/space existence. 

 

RH*, we all want to live forever. But our urge to live, as well as our unwillingness to die is not a reason to believe. It's a motivation. See the difference?

 

If I ask you, "why do you believe", and you answer something to the effect of "because I want to", you have not actually answered the question. "Why" in this context does not mean "what motivates you", but rather, "what compells belief".

 

 

 

* he, he, I know what it stands for (hints, McLaren, healthcare, universalism). You did present a challenge to us you know. "logical guesses. keep guessing"

[MQTA]

Perhaps he believes, like many do, that the bible isn't at all an accurate representation of Jesus's teachings, and is instead a self-contradictory mishmash of folk legends, people's inserted cultural mores, and Dark Ages-era propaganda?

 

Besides, why are you getting on him? He's still hanging on to Christianity, whereas we chucked it.

 

Oh yes, I forgot--a lot of Christians like to play "my Christianity's better than yours".

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It seems like his Christianity is a fair version. One that feels a Christ within, open to the valuable living teachings, and seeking to improve oneself. He doesn't seem to be saying he has the answers for every- or anyone else.

 

I think I understand where he's coming from. NO real room for debate though.

 

Welcome rhuntermt

[MQTA]

Interesting number, I always wanted to know that one.

 

There's about 2.2 Bill. Christians.

 

That makes about 81-82,000 average number of members in each denomination.

 

Say that only one denomination is the True Christian one.

 

Where, oh, where will the other 2,199,918,000 Christians go when they die???

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Highest number I read so far was 28,500 denominations, maybe there's just been 1500 new ones since rhuntermt's last update. LOL

 

Even still... there's just so many more flavors of Christianity than there is Baskin Robbins!

[Kryten]

Logical guesses.  Keep guessing. 

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Obviously Rob Hunter from Montana.

[NorthenSun]

I think that rhuntermt really believes in his heart, in spite of what he writes, that he personally must accept and follow Jesus Christ as his saviour or he has a good chance of ending up in hell. This is a very powerful meme that has worked well for Christianity for 2000 years. It has infected billions of people, and it may never be removed from human culture. If one can eliminate this concept from his/her mind then they have no need for Christianity. But it is not easy. Now although I (and perhaps for some others on this site) profess to be an ex-Christian, this thought tends to creep back in at times. Sometimes I still find myself talking to God, but then I remember I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

[Kryten]

. . . Sometimes I still find myself talking to God, but then I remember I might as well be talking to a brick wall.   

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At least a brick wall can support you.

[Skankboy]

rhuntermt,

 

Thanks for your response. Sounds like you'd make a good Buddhist...

 

(That's supposed to be a compliment by the way )

 

[Mythra]

I think that rhuntermt really believes in his heart, in spite of what he writes, that he personally must accept and follow Jesus Christ as his saviour or he has a good chance of ending up in hell. This is a very powerful meme that has worked well for Christianity for 2000 years. It has infected billions of people, and it may never be removed from human culture.  If one can eliminate this concept from his/her  mind then they have no need for Christianity. But it is not easy. Now although I (and perhaps for some others on this site) profess to be an ex-Christian,  this thought tends to creep back in at times. Sometimes I still find myself talking to God, but then I remember I might as well be talking to a brick wall.   

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NorthenSun: This was so well put. The sentiment is so applicable to so many of us. I couldn't have said it better if, well, I couldn't have said it better.

 

Nicely done.

[chohan]

The stay has already been enjoyable, thanks much.  Smiling and chuckling over your image of Christ's Divers Belt - that's good!

 

Thanks hunter. I 'signed on' as a human mainly due to curiosity and the potential for humor and drama. Curiosity has always been my Achille's Heel or Samson's Hair, weakness or strength depending on the perspective I suppose. At this point, I'll just add that I appreciate the tone of your posts. Your non-partisan, non-exclusive worldview is very refreshing although the temptation is still there to play the polarities... as in, "my group is more tolerant and inclusive than your group".

 

Don't overweight the tense of the verb in my expression of faith: "God in Christ saves people."  I'm good with Amanda's past tense of already saved.  Already, not yet.  As in, saved from death, but we're not quite dead yet.  Saved from death, that's the from what.  Full, conscious-less, post-mortem non-existence, above all.  But also from many lesser states of death we repeatedly experience based on how we live.  Like in hating our adversaries.  Or our neighbors.  Or our family members from time to time.

 

It seems I misunderstood, I thought you saw conciousness as an evolution. Difficult to evolve as consciousness if I/It ceases to exist. I have no desire to change your views but I would enjoy understanding them. "Full, conscious-less, post-mortem non-existence"... is this what you think awaits humans who have no 'saviour'? I'm curious as to how Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoist, etc. apply to your 'saved from death' view, not to mention all the humans who experienced physical death before the alledged historical rabbi.

 

Why an obscure non-gentile rabbi, indeed!  Somewhere I heard that demographers estimate that 170 billion humans have existed to this point in time.  If we are to have any confidence that life is to be restored - som basis in hope - then it's nice to have at least one example from this line-up.  But why just one, and why this one? That's a bigger discussion than I have time for just now, but I do look forward to discussing it with you and hearing your perspective back.  Excellent question.

 

Well I can see why you would look for some hope if you believe in "Full, conscious-less, post-mortem non-existence". Which of the 170 billion curls do you think ceased to exist? The ones who didn't accept your christ? How do we ALL get 'saved' if the majority cease to exist?

 

The view I gather from Biblical content is of one-ness or unity of all...

 

One-ness and unity for those 'in christ'. Those in christ are being saved, those not are perishing. Sheep/goats, believers/unbelievers, wheat/tares, can't be chosen without a group that isn't chosen... my, how the polarities dance. At least things turn out well in the end for the 'in christ' crowd.

 

Sorry hunter, can I call you that? Btw, my friends call me 'cho' so feel free. Sorry, but I see none of this one-ness unity in the Abrahamic religions. Buddhism maybe, Hindu philosophy or the Tao Te Ching, perhaps even a few maverick quantum physicists but the bible... I can't find it. I can wade through the dung and find an occassional pearl such as "I and my Father are One" or "The kingdom as god is within you" which any curl speaking from the perspective of their own higher-self, core-self, I -There, Oversoul, or whatever could say so no big deal. The Source and I are One... congratulations on that realization rebbe Jesus, welcome to the club.

 

Skankboy is right, you should just be a Buddhist, Taoist or perhaps just a curl being human once you work past this saviour/christ issue. Btw, that was a great return post to him.

 

My advice is go read some Alan Watts. You appear to enjoy philosophy and I think at this stage some of his writings would really resonate with you.

 

Finally, because my hope aligns with Amanda's, I expect you'll have to put up with us both in the Whole despite whatever Diving Belts we each will be wearing.

 

Well since we are already portions of the Whole, I don't see a problem. Amanda's ok and so are you.

 

I think that rhuntermt really believes in his heart, in spite of what he writes, that he personally must accept and follow Jesus Christ as his saviour or he has a good chance of ending up in hell. This is a very powerful meme that has worked well for Christianity for 2000 years.

 

I agree NS with your above statement and the power of the meme but I would edit it to read, "he has a good chance of ending up non-existant." until he can clarify his viewpoint.

 

For myself, it took much more trust to finally turn loose of a saviour/messiah than it ever took to believe. In fact, I can see alot of myself in rhuntermt... perhaps five years ago when I was still trying to hammer the square christ peg into the round hole of a multi-dimensional universe. I thought something was awry with the self-correcting universe only to realize the problem was the christ peg

 

cheers,

cho

[rhuntermt]

Perhaps he believes, like many do, that the bible isn't at all an accurate representation of Jesus's teachings, and is instead a self-contradictory mishmash of folk legends, people's inserted cultural mores, and Dark Ages-era propaganda?

 

Besides, why are you getting on him? He's still hanging on to Christianity, whereas we chucked it.

 

Oh yes, I forgot--a lot of Christians like to play "my Christianity's better than yours".

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BeccasStillSeeking:

 

Greetings. I'm still learning how to navigate here, perceive that I somehow missed your message here, and further perceive that I somehow missed Dario's message to which you were responding. I don't even know where Dario's message is located, but perhaps I will locate it soon enough. I don't see any questions or comments directed toward me in your post, but there are two items that you appear to intend me to overhear.

 

One comment is your conclusion about what I believe the Bible reveals (or fails to) concerning Jesus' teachings. Absent the Bible, the paper trail on Jesus' teachings runs pretty thin. I by no means understand all that the Bible record claims he said, but I do disagree with much understanding that traditional interpretation intends. That said, I'm not all that suspicious of the record itself contingent upon reconciling English translations to original Greek and Hebrew renderings.

 

The other statement suggests that I might be playing a one-upmanship game with a particular brand of Christianity. If so, I play in ignorance, which is no excuse but just the way it is. To use your descriptions in the first comment, if Christ and his meaning for us is wrapped in mishmash, mores and propaganda, then attempting to unravel the wraps strikes me as a worthy pursuit. Moreover, while the pursuit itself may bog down from time to time under typical human insecurities and vanity, that says more about us than it does about the pursuit of truth.

 

I trust you'll give me a shot of truth if I've misapprehended you here. ;-)

 

Rob

[rhuntermt]

rhuntermt,

 

Thanks for your response.  Sounds like you'd make a good Buddhist...

 

(That's supposed to be a compliment by the way )

 

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Skankboy:

 

Compliment accepted. I've heard some say that Christianity and Buddhism are not mutually exclusive, but I haven't examined the latter. Sounds like you have?

 

RH

[rhuntermt]

Interesting number, I always wanted to know that one.

 

There's about 2.2 Bill. Christians.

 

That makes about 81-82,000 average number of members in each denomination.

 

Say that only one denomination is the True Christian one.

 

Where, oh, where will the other 2,199,918,000 Christians go when they die???

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HanSolo:

 

NOW I'm back on track - I didn't realize the system would post the most recent messages, and that I could page back to pick up the string where I last left off.

 

Good math here - not sure that will get you into MIT, but maybe a CPA is in your future. Your point is sufficiently made with this calculation, but might be even more interesting if you based it on the total count or estimate of all Christians who ever have lived as well as those currently living.

 

RH

[rhuntermt]

I don't like Christians who don't come here to debate.....they're no fun....

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Asimov:

 

We'll probably have some fun eventually. ;-)

 

RH

[Ouroboros]

HanSolo:

 

NOW I'm back on track - I didn't realize the system would post the most recent messages, and that I could page back to pick up the string where I last left off.

 

Good math here - not sure that will get you into MIT, but maybe a CPA is in your future.  Your point is sufficiently made with this calculation, but might be even more interesting if you based it on the total count or estimate of all Christians who ever have lived as well as those currently living. 

 

RH

Yes. I made an estimate in an earlier post, but it's mostly guestimates anyway, and they say we have more people living on earth today than the total number of people in history.

 

But it is scary how few True Christians™ that actually will go to Heaven. It proves that God either have something else in mind instead saving only True Christians™ (because he will extremely lonely), or that God made a mistake in his plan for the ultimate salvation (he's not perfect), or of course the alternative that maybe he doesn't exist or he does but never made any salvation plan, because we don't need one. Many options. Which one should one choose? The one that feels right for you.

[MQTA]

Many options. Which one should one choose? The one that feels right for you.

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Yep.. you're the one you'll deal with when you go to close your eyes at night. You're the one who's gotta sleep with themselves.