Why am I a Christian?

[rhuntermt]

Just a question, rhunter.  If there is nothing to fear or worry over, why should we love our neighbour?

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Asimov:

 

Is it your information where I saw a photo of a mule suspended in air as the result of being harnessed to an excessively heavy load? Twenty years ago I saw this very thing: I was in a refugee camp in Somalia, watching a man who was cussing (I assume) and whipping his donkey to get it to move. The donkey, which was harnessed to a load of mudbricks, absorbed this for a while before finally, seemingly relunctantly, attempting a step. He immediately popped into the air and hung there to he astonishment of his owner and my amusement.

 

You ask a worthy question. How about this:

 

You've heard it said, acquire and possess for yourself, that's how to ook out for number one even if it means grinding a few people into the dirt along the way, for this is the way to abundant life. But I tell you that this is not true, that it contradicts human experience. Joy and peace - the experience the synoptic gospel writers referred to as the kingdom of heaven, and that John and Paul referred to as eternal life, come from loving one another, from intimacy and community with one another. I'm not telling you to be terrified of finding yourself in the former position. Rather, I'm telling you that the desires that are in you misapprehend the means to the end they purpose.

 

Why do you think we should love our neighbor? Or, do you think that this is bad advice, and if so, why?

 

Rob

[rhuntermt]

" 2. That God is wrathful toward life (including us)"

---------------------------------------

 

Gee RH,  I think they taught you that in church.

 

and I think it takes years and years of that kind of teaching,

and treatment towards others

 

to develop that idea

 

I look around at the planet and see things like:

flowers,  fruit,  children

systems like photosynthesis, and homeostasis of the human body

 

I don't think God is wrathful,  I think the christians are way out of control,

and going in reverse

 

Consider this:

 

Church is the only 100% tax exempt, mega bucks business in America

it draws corruption like a magnet

 

and they get the money

even if they teach crap

 

and it is completely unregulated,

no body can touch them,

they have freedom of religion here

 

the Supreme Court will soon decide if hallucinagins are OK to take at religious services

 

that is how wacked out things are becoming

 

and I think it has a whole lot more to do with Pastor

than God

 

Beverly

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Beverly:

 

Pleased to make your acquaintance. Sad to say, the idea that Life is wrathful toward life may be, as you say, a primarily religious perspective. I wouldn't be so hard on pastors, though. They are as much products of their background and training as anyone and everyone else.

 

That said, I recognize that nature is red in tooth and claw to some degree - that makes the most fascinating nature films. But, most biology is reliant on passive (solar) energy and depends on ecologic balance - live and help live, not merely let live - is the general rule among living organisms. Kill and live is the exception to the rule, don't you think?

 

So, what's your story - how did you come to this place and way of thinking, and where did you come from?

 

Rob

[Mythra]

Your conclusion that the former condition holds is perfectly reasonable, and I appreciate that the absence of cognitive dissonance is at least conducive to, and likely essential to, a state of peace or happiness such as you experience.

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I'm just an average everyday dude. Shit, I had to look up what the hell cognitive dissonance is. Not like the phrase comes up in everyday average conversation.

 

If you're saying that I appear to be comfortable in my own skin, you are right.

[Guest god]

hi, i've been following this thread loosely but interestedly..

 

Kill and live is the exception to the rule, don't you think?

 

i was just going to say that killing in order to survive is rather the rule in nature i would think. from single cell amoebas and up the food chain, most flora and fauna survive by killing either directly for food or indirectly via competition for resources.

there are many plants that catch insects for food. stll others survive parasitically off host plants and eventually kill off the host plant itself.

 

in forests, trees and plants that have evolved to grow taller and gather more sunlight will kill off the plants below that do not receive the nourishment they need. often more insidious foreign flora can kill off and virtually eradicate native plants and grasses due to their aggressiveness in hogging resources.

 

although much of what we see around us has been domesticated by humans...feeding our dogs and cats mineral-packed pet chow, fertilizing our lawns, fruit orchards and flower gardens - natural life is still about survival of the fittess. and in a world of limited resources, for every survivor that obtains a resource there will more than likely be an non-survivor that loses out by not having that resource.

[Antlerman]

Asimov:

 

Is it your information where I saw a photo of a mule suspended in air as the result of being harnessed to an excessively heavy load?

Rob

Rob,

 

Actually that photo of the mule is my avatar. I really had no symbolic meaning in choosing it, outside of just the comical absurdity of it. I think that absurdity is sometimes what helps us just stand back from what sometimes seems as absolute meaninglessness to existence. However I'm not a pessimist. More on this later.

 

BTW, if you can get notice that people have responded to you in your email account, it may help you find where this thread is now on the ex-c site. The "debating with Christians" forums is now "The Lions Den" I hope to hear from you here. I've been looking for your response to my previous post.

 

Later....

 

AM

[Guest Guest]

I'm just an average everyday dude.  Shit, I had to look up what the hell cognitive dissonance is.  Not like the phrase comes up in everyday average conversation.

 

If you're saying that I appear to be comfortable in my own skin, you are right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did sound a little pretentious - like Frazier the sitcom radio-personality psychiatrist "dude".

 

Rob

[rhuntermt]

Rob,

 

Actually that photo of the mule is my avatar.  I really had no symbolic meaning in choosing it, outside of just the comical absurdity of it.  I think that absurdity is sometimes what helps us just stand back from what sometimes seems as absolute meaninglessness to existence.  However I'm not a pessimist.  More on this later.

 

BTW, if you can get notice that people have responded to you in your email account, it may help you find where this thread is now on the ex-c site.  The "debating with Christians" forums is now "The Lions Den"  I hope to hear from you here.  I've been looking for your response to my previous post.

 

Later....

 

AM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for the navigation help, and for correcting my photo attribution. It's a great photo, absurd as you say, and unexpected, which seems to me the root of all good humor.

 

I'll go looking for your post (and others) tomorrow. My wife just announced that I better get my rear end upstairs to watch a video with her that she rented: "Interpreter".

 

Rob

[rhuntermt]

i was just going to say that killing in order to survive is rather the rule in nature i would think. from single cell amoebas and up the food chain, most flora and fauna survive by killing either directly for food or indirectly via competition for resources.

there are many plants that catch insects for food. stll others survive parasitically off host plants and eventually kill off the host plant itself.

 

in forests, trees and plants that have evolved to grow taller and gather more sunlight will kill off the plants below that do not receive the nourishment they need. often more insidious foreign flora can kill off and virtually eradicate native plants and grasses due to their aggressiveness in hogging resources.

 

god: Good to meet you, good thoughts. Whether or not your are right about nature being more active than passive in survival mode - whether or not ocean algae and complex rain forests tend toward being passive or aggressive - nature is certainly all about obtaining energy, which is the most intriguing element of the discussion.

 

Rob

[rhuntermt]

If I told you there is an invisible dragon living in my garage, is my word enough to convince you?  What if there was an ancient book that made the same claim?  Is that credible?  What if 1/3 of the people on earth believed it, would that be credible?

 

Hopefully the above single-thought (almost) quote effort works. Still don't understand how to see prior content, but then I haven't been able to check my email for a few days - may be answers there.

 

These are reasonable questions, spamandhand, probably among thousands of ways to probe essentially the same thing. Let's see, if you claimed there was a dragon in your garage, I'd check it out. From an appropriate distance. If an ancient book made the same claim, I'd really, really want to meet you in person. I think. Only slightly more seriously, I'd doubt the book was very ancient if it referred to garages. So without further delay, if some ancient book claimed dragons coexisted with people, I might wonder two things: (1) what metaphorical meaning if any might scholars generally agree the text intends; and (2) does the claim mean anything for us today in either literal or figurative terms? With respect to the 2nd wondering, if literal then the claim is evidently false, as it contradicts what we know about biology and natural history. Service returned: the illumination this provides concerning belief in God and resurrection is ____________.

 

Rob

[rhuntermt]

Having been a fundi (actually was converted when I was living out in Montana, BTW ), and then having come to the awareness that the system's beliefs are purely mythological, it is hard for me to have that sense of reliability you speak of . . . despite how much I may want to believe in God as an object of my spirit's desire for higher expression, I cannot overcome my distrust of its origins and its history - not just for my own experience, but its track record in this world . . . It's hard for me to embrace anything good that may be hiding somewhere in that.

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Antlerman:

Glad to finally locate your post - I was just about to call it a night - the tank is running low.

 

When and where were you living in Montana? We've been here 16 years now, but I was also here my first 18 years, so spent, let's see, 14 years elsewhere.

 

You do well to reject what you have rejected, and I'm not here to persuade you otherwise. I honestly don't know if more lives have been screwed up by Christian faith/religion, or helped by it. On the whole, it's been much more favorable to me than it was to you, but the experience of my siblings has been more like yours. As far as I'm concerned, you are my brother, and I am yours - our different perspectives do not change that one iota. I sincerely hope that nothing I write or have written here will disturb you or bring back negatives that are best left in the hell where they belong. With that risk in mind, you may recall Jesus figuratively describing the kingdom of heaven as like a pearl of great value that, when a man finds it, he forfeits everything to gain it. I don't know if many or most people find this pearl in this life, but based on your description I am sure you did not find it in Montana. Maybe you possess it now - others here apparently do, as the peace and joy they describe from undergoing conversion to their present view fits the descripotion of this pearl pretty darn well.

 

RH

[spamandham]

Let's see, if you claimed there was a dragon in your garage, I'd check it out.  From an appropriate distance.  If an ancient book made the same claim, I'd really, really want to meet you in person.  I think.  Only slightly more seriously, I'd doubt the book was very ancient if it referred to garages.

 

Well you see, the dragon is invisible, so you wouldn't be able to see him. The book doesn't talk specifically about my garage, but rather, it talks about the invisible dragon and my ancestors who cared for it. The dragon is immortal, and he has lived with members of my family since ancient times. I have a complete lineage of those he's lived with, so that proves even more the veracity of my claim. He now lives with me. Being a dragon, he likes caves. The garage is the closest thing I have to a cave, so he lives there.

 

Biology and natural history do not contradict invisible dragons, therefor he must be real.

[Ouroboros]

Spam&Ham,

 

You forgot that you can't test the dragon either. He won't spew fire on command, and you can't use a bucket of paint to throw on him to make him visible, because he repels paint or any other trick to try to test his existence. If you try to walk up to him and touch him, you will just walk through him, because that is his powers.

 

Am I correct?

[Antlerman]

Antlerman:

Glad to finally locate your post - I was just about to call it a night - the tank is running low.

 

When and where were you living in Montana?  We've been here 16 years now, but I was also here my first 18 years, so spent, let's see, 14 years elsewhere.

 

You do well to reject what you have rejected, and I'm not here to persuade you otherwise.  I honestly don't know if more lives have been screwed up by Christian faith/religion, or helped by it.  On the whole, it's been much more favorable to me than it was to you, but the experience of my siblings has been more like yours.  As far as I'm concerned, you are my brother, and I am yours - our different perspectives do not change that one iota.  I sincerely hope that nothing I write or have written here will disturb you or bring back negatives that are best left in the hell where they belong.  With that risk in mind, you may recall Jesus figuratively describing the kingdom of heaven as like a pearl of great value that, when a man finds it, he forfeits everything to gain it.  I don't know if many or most people find this pearl in this life, but based on your description I am sure you did not find it in Montana.  Maybe you possess it now - others here apparently do, as the peace and joy they describe from undergoing conversion to their present view fits the descripotion of this pearl pretty darn well. 

 

RH

RH,

 

Thanks for your kind words. I lived in Havre over 20 years ago. My favorite memories are going to Glacier on the Going to the Sun highway. That was where I found the real "God" without any Bible to say anything about it. Funny, that I felt I would be able to find answers in some school of theological interpretation. It is a shame really that I allowed what I felt in my heart towards the awesomeness of life to become stained by trying to "know" God through "His Word".

 

Today I still find it difficult to allow myself to revel in the majesty of existence without all that nonsense theology sticking its irreverent face into my vision. This is why I am so ardently opposed to fundamentalism. How can we possibly be a complete human when we frantically commit intellectual suicide in order to support some doctrine we are mistakenly assuming is the absolute truth?

 

I genuinely admire your approach to belief. I can see others who are also able to do what you do, but I am still mystified by it. When I look at the Bible now, I see nothing mystical whatsoever. There are spiritual things in it, but they are only from people like you and me. There is no divine, transcendent guiding force that gave us it for our benefit. Therefore any teachings that come from it become lumped into the soup of what became a destructive force for millions, rather than words of love and peace.

 

Is it possible to reedit the book with a razor blade, pasting only the few gems into an abridged version? The gospel of Thomas could be our guide. No fabricated historical set ups, just wisdom words like, "Jesus said, be good," or better still, "Be good," and get rid of the entire political connotation of some developed historical figure. (That BTW is actually how I believe the Gospel Jesus original evolved: going the other way, from simple sayings of Wisdom; to Jesus said...; to some historical set up, then Jesus said...).

[spamandham]

Spam&Ham,

 

You forgot that you can't test the dragon either. He won't spew fire on command, and you can't use a bucket of paint to throw on him to make him visible, because he repels paint or any other trick to try to test his existence. If you try to walk up to him and touch him, you will just walk through him, because that is his powers.

 

Am I correct?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, all that goes without saying of course. We are talking about the invisible dragon. Clearly, being invisible as well as alive, he is in a special category all by himself and is not subject to testing. I will warn you though, if you anger him too much with all these attempts to penetrate his invisibility, he will torch you. It is written, "Do not test the dragon thy pet!"

[Ouroboros]

Well, all that goes without saying of course.  We are talking about the invisible dragon.  Clearly, being invisible as well as alive, he is in a special category all by himself and is not subject to testing.  I will warn you though, if you anger him too much with all these attempts to penetrate his invisibility, he will torch you.  It is written, "Do not test the dragon thy pet!"

And he could punish you with his mystical powers too, like your burger is cold when you order it at Carls Jr, or you can only find odd socks in your drawer, or your favorit TV show is canceled, or even worse, he make the lightning strike you power so your internet stops working!

[All Gods Fail]

Don't forget the Flying Spaghetti Monster! He promises us beer volcanoes and stripper factories in the next life. Can you afford to risk missing out on that because of some silly need for 'proof'?

 

Remember, if the FSM isn't real and you devote your life to Him, you won't be in any trouble. But if there IS an FSM and you live your life w/out being touched by His Noodly Appendage, then you've lost everything!

[rhuntermt]

Dear Abby:

 

Spamandhand and I are friends, we get along splendidly though we may disagree on some things, we consider each other to be rational people and we are both relatively happy, good people. Spamandhand believes an invisible dragon lives in his garage, and he imposes no burden on me as a result of such belief. That is, I need not believe in this dragon of his, and he assures me that there is no threat of lasting consequence of either my doubts or my inability to see what he sees. Spamandhand merely says that I will be able to see or believe in this dragon eventually. The fact is, I don't believe spamandhand; proof of his dragon is insufficient for my tastes. So, should I seek to relieve spamandhand of his belief in this dragon, or should I defer judgment?

 

Not smellin' the smoke

 

 

Dear Abby:

 

Spamandhand and I are friends, we get along splendidly though we may disagree on some things, we consider each other to be rational people and we are both relatively happy, good people. Spamandhand believes the universe is comprised of vibrating strings, and he imposes no burden on me as a result of such belief. That is, I need not believe in these strings of his, and he assures me that there is no threat of lasting consequence of either my doubts or my inability to see what he sees. Spamandhand merely says that I will be able to see or believe in these strings eventually. The fact is, I don't believe spamandhand; proof of his strings is insufficient for my tastes. So, should I seek to relieve spamandhand of his belief in these strings, or should I defer judgment?

 

Not feelin' the good vibrations

 

 

Dear Abby:

 

Spamandhand and I are friends, we get along splendidly though we may disagree on some things, we consider each other to be rational people and we are both relatively happy, good people. Spamandhand believes the earth is round, and he imposes no burden on me as a result of such belief. That is, I need not believe in this roundness of his, and he assures me that there is no threat of lasting consequence of either my doubts or my inability to see what he sees. Spamandhand merely says that I will be able to see or believe in this roundness eventually. The fact is, I don't believe spamandhand; proof of his roundness is insufficient for my tastes. So, should I seek to relieve spamandhand of his belief in the roundness, or should I defer judgment?

 

Not fallin' off the ball in the time of Charlemagne (or thereabouts)

 

[rhuntermt]

RH,

 

Thanks for your kind words.  I lived in Havre over 20 years ago.  My favorite memories are going to Glacier on the Going to the Sun highway.  That was where I found the real "God" without any Bible to say anything about it.  Funny, that I felt I would be able to find answers in some school of theological interpretation.  It is a shame really that I allowed what I felt in my heart towards the awesomeness of life to become stained by trying to "know" God through "His Word".

 

Today I still find it difficult to allow myself to revel in the majesty of existence without all that nonsense theology sticking its irreverent face into my vision.  This is why I am so ardently opposed to fundamentalism.  How can we possibly be a complete human when we frantically commit intellectual suicide in order to support some doctrine we are mistakenly assuming is the absolute truth?

 

I genuinely admire your approach to belief.  I can see others who are also able to do what you do, but I am still mystified by it.  When I look at the Bible now, I see nothing mystical whatsoever.  There are spiritual things in it, but they are only from people like you and me.  There is no divine, transcendent guiding force that gave us it for our benefit.  Therefore any teachings that come from it become lumped into the soup of what became a destructive force for millions, rather than words of love and peace.

 

Is it possible to reedit the book with a razor blade, pasting only the few gems into an abridged version?  The gospel of Thomas could be our guide.  No fabricated historical set ups, just wisdom words like, "Jesus said, be good," or better still, "Be good," and get rid of the entire political connotation of some developed historical figure.  (That BTW is actually how I believe the Gospel Jesus original evolved: going the other way, from simple sayings of Wisdom; to Jesus said...; to some historical set up, then Jesus said...).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Havre is a fine place to have come from. I spent my first 18 years just down the road, in Great Falls, another good (cold, windy) place to have come from. ;-)

 

I don't see how you or anyone can go wrong loving existence and loving truth.

 

You could be right about the evolution of the scriptures. I suspect as well that some of that may have happened. But, it's mere conjecture on my part - I have no proof.

 

RH

[Antlerman]

Havre is a fine place to have come from.  I spent my first 18 years just down the road, in Great Falls, another good (cold, windy) place to have come from.  ;-)

 

I don't see how you or anyone can go wrong loving existence and loving truth. 

 

You could be right about the evolution of the scriptures.  I suspect as well that some of that may have happened.  But, it's mere conjecture on my part - I have no proof.

 

RH

Actually I only lived in Havre for a short while. I'm Minnesota bred. I did enjoy my experience in Havre though.

 

I'm interested in knowing from your last comment about scripture where you said you have no proof of the theory that the Gospel Jesus story is the product of an evolution: Is proof a criteria for you?

 

I'm not trying to goad you at all. I'm trying to understand, because for me this is something that stands in the way of me using any aspects of the mythology, because I feel the truth of what it is lies somewhere rooted in the natural, rather than in the mystical. If I understand intellectually that it is all rooted in the natural, how can it provide a transcendent vehicle for my emotional being into something supernatural? Is there a divorce from rational thought that is a necessary part of that experience?

 

I’d like to know if you would you be unbothered by it were you to be presented by iron-clad evidence that the original Jesus bore little to no resemblance to what Christians base their faith on today? If you wouldn’t be, then how does that work? I am sincerely interested in understanding that.

[spamandham]

Spamandhand believes the universe is comprised of vibrating strings, and he imposes no burden on me as a result of such belief. 

 

For the record, I don't believe the universe is comprised of vibrating strings.

[Ouroboros]

For the record, I don't believe the universe is comprised of vibrating strings.

No? No super-strings in your world?

[Antlerman]

For the record, I don't believe the universe is comprised of vibrating strings.

You don't? Personally I think String Theory will ultimately prove that God is the inaudible music of a super tiny cosmic orchestra that all creation grooves to.

[Ouroboros]

You don't?  Personally I think String Theory will ultimately prove that God is the inaudible music of a super tiny cosmic orchestra that all creation grooves to. 

Would it be G-strings?

 

Then God can play and dress G-sus as much as he wants.

 

(many levels of interpretations here )

 

http://www.g-sus.com/

[spamandham]

You don't?  Personally I think String Theory will ultimately prove that God is the inaudible music of a super tiny cosmic orchestra that all creation grooves to. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No. The various string theories are incomplete and a compelling case has not been made IMHO. That isn't to say I would never accept it, but today I don't.

 

I do see sufficient evidence for more than the ordinary 4 dimensions of spacetime.

[Ouroboros]

No.  The various string theories are incomplete and a compelling case has not been made IMHO.  That isn't to say I would never accept it, but today I don't.

That is very true. There's no evidence for it. The only thing to support it is that the formulas and the string theory as mathematical concept has been somewhat helpful, but not totally successful. What can be confusing with string theory is that the math can work to explain things, but it doesn't necessarely mean that energy is formed as strings. On this level, it's more theory than empirical substance.

 

So far there's no way of isolating a single quark to experiment on. As soon as a quark get broken loose, new quarks will show up and they will together build a new particle. (Don't ask me how or what it really means, it's just what I read recently in a science magazine. )

 

I do see sufficient evidence for more than the ordinary 4 dimensions of spacetime.

That's why the mathematical model of super-strings works, because the string model works on objects in multiple dimensions. It's not so much if is strings or not, but the formulas that can be applied. Unfortunately, what I heard, is that there are many formulas to string-theory that doesn't work too well with reality. So the theory doesn't fit too well yet.

 

(At least so I heard and read.)