Saved from what?

[Baggs]

I was thankfully never a Christian, that's my story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you.

[Caretaker]

A guy thought he was God, then finally God came down and showed himself. The guy became an ex God?  Or He never was?

I cant be an ex Car racer if I was never a racer in the first place.

I thought I was a Car racer but I recently found out I was driving a bike.

So I'm really not an ex Car racer then, but an Ex Bike racer.

Then I found out that Racing doesnt mean just driving around the block, so I wasnt really a Racer but just a simple rider.

I'm an ex bull fighter, till I found out that I wasnt fighting bulls, I was fighting horses. So I'm an ex horse fighter.

Then I found out Fighting doesnt mean- feeding.

So I wasnt an ex horse or bull fighter but an Ex horse feeder.

I fail to see the point of this.

[Asimov]

The problem is that it's apparent that not even Christians know what a Christian is really...or there wouldn't be so many different denoms.

 

Now, we could define that basically a Christian is someone who accepts Christ as his Saviour....whether or not they really understand what that means is irrelevant.

[Dianka]

I was saved, and I was a Christian. I was also baptized.

 

I prayed, went to church. Read the Bible, and incorporated the teaching of Jesus into my life. I prayed for other people, volunteered at the church.

 

Oh, and one more thing, my fellow Christians referred to me as a saved Christian.

Pretty funny, when I walked among them I WAS SAVED ACCORDING TO THEM!

[Asimov]

I was saved, and I was a Christian. I was also baptized.

 

I prayed, went to church. Read the Bible, and incorporated the teaching of Jesus into my life. I prayed for other people, volunteered at the church.

 

Oh, and one more thing, my fellow Christians referred to me as a saved Christian.

Pretty funny, when I walked among them I WAS SAVED ACCORDING TO THEM!

 

Now you're just hot.

[Dianka]

Oh, my! You heathen! The ghost of Christ condemns such flirtation. Posting from your loins is sinful, and by the will of God it must be stopped!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Well I am happy there is no God......continue with the pelvis talk

 

 

 

[Baggs]

I was saved, and I was a Christian. I was also baptized.

 

I prayed, went to church. Read the Bible, and incorporated the teaching of Jesus into my life. I prayed for other people, volunteered at the church.

 

Oh, and one more thing, my fellow Christians referred to me as a saved Christian.

Pretty funny, when I walked among them I WAS SAVED ACCORDING TO THEM!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct me if I heard you wrong.

 

So basically you were a Christian because you "I prayed, went to church. Read the Bible, and incorporated the teaching of Jesus into my life. I prayed for other people, volunteered at the church."

And people said you were a saved Christian.

Pretty much just quoted what you said, you were quite straightfoward. Nice.

 

OFF TOPIC QUESTION FOR ONE SPECIFIC PERSON.

I remember you said you read the Bible too. Off topic, SurlyMermaid81 do you recall ever seeing a passage that says : many will come to me and say Lord, Lord, have we not cast out demons in your name, healed the sick, raised the dead. I assure you I shall say to them, depart from Me You workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

Could you give me your personal interpretation of this passage? This has nothing to do with any point I'm making, I'm just curious how you view it, I wont attack you for it.

[Dianka]

Ok, well I am probably walking into a trap, but here it goes....

 

Oh and by the way, you owe me a response to my previous question...

 

 

Forget about the fact that they are now Atheists, or simply reject Christianity.

 

When you read through the testimonies, how were they any different than the "true" Christians when they did believe?

 

I think the poeple in your passage gave up on God because they didn't get the eternal salvation and peace of mind that Christianity claimed to provide.

 

To some extent every one of the Ex-C's here were disenchanted with the lack of help from God, but if that was the only problem with religion I would never have left. I can tough it out through the bad times.

 

I left Christianity and faith all together because it makes no logical sense.

 

It got to the point where I had to choose between God and science. I chose the more reliable and stable of the two.

 

So the passage you posted doesn't apply to me or any other person who concluded that religion makes no logical sense.

[Baggs]

I know the argument is whether one is saved by works, or by faith, or by grace, once and for all, or you have to jump hoops.

 

But, what Exactly are they being Saved from?  I mean, really.  What physically changes in the world when one thinks they're saved, to how things were a moment earlier?

 

I was Saved once, it was back during the summer when I was 4 years old.  I was pushed into a pool and was drowning.  I still can recall the vision of it.  Glub glub glub.  An arm reached in and Saved me, pulled me up out of the water.  The mom of the kid who pushed me in.

 

To me, that's being Saved.  Had nobody pulled me out, I'd have been dead.

 

But in this life, on my own, barring accidents, what do I need to be Saved from?  Seems like a gimmick to me, always has.  I still don't get it.

 

I'm still reading the How to be saved article How to be Saved, maybe the answer is in there?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A traditional concept for salvation would be what somone said here already, saved from hell.

But basically I believe it not only to mean being saved from hell but being saved from a life without God. Basically, imagining that the creator is more beautiful than the creation, lets say I like a girl and I think to myself I cant go through this life without spending time with her and marrying her. The same would be what God would save us from, living a life without God. And since the creator is more beautiful than the creation, its like living a life without a woman you love only on a much grander scale. For married people that would be like spending a year without your wife. Assuming you love your wife ofcourse.

 

As for hell, I know alot of people hate hearing that "youre going to hell" bit. I agree, alot of people dont like the concept of it cause alot of them think Jesus was being literal. Well, if we take Jesus that literally then we must go through our mother's womb to be BORN AGAIN, instead of being a new person, new mind, second chance, a new life.

I personally consider Hell the only place in existence, may it be a dimension or a place in the universe, or another universe, where God will pull out his presence.

 

Imagine it like being near a pretty girl makes you feel plesant, you can smell her scent and so on. To God, that would be Heaven, being near God would be much grander than just being near a pretty girl, again the concept that the creator has to be more beautiful than the creation. Thats my concept of heaven to be near the most beautiful being in existence.

But basically hell would simply be the opposite. Wouldnt it be painful to be rejected by such a beautiful person that you just cant live without? Well thats why hell is considered the 2nd death, It would be death for the human soul to be shut out from the presence of the most beautiful being in the universe.

Much more, the regret you will have that would just burn you up for refusing this free chance that was being offered for no price ( and yes you dont need to pay the preacher money to get to heaven ).

 

Simple comparison.

Alot of people think Hell is so unjust and horrible cause a Loving God cannot torture people in hell.

 

I consider hell not to be torture but torment- non inflicted.

For example stomach pain.

2 sources, I can puch your stomach and you will feel pain ( assuming youre not buff and tough and have a 6 pack ab that can just absorb the force).

but anyway, thats torture- inflicted pain.

Hell's torment comes from being deprived of comfort. Since God would be the source of comfort for the human soul, not being with God would cause pain. Not because God inflicted it.

Like food. Lets say Jesus offers you food. And you say COWDUNG!@ Get away from me I hate you blah blah blah.

Later on you starve, did Jesus or the FOOD inflict the pain on you? Or did your free choice inflict it.

God is loving enough to offer you a way out, and loving enough to let you make up your own mind. God respects your choice because when humanity began to choose for themselves, they became as gods- as the Bible states. So as gods, God will let us make up our own mind but just as he is God, we cannot force him to follow our bidding.

Just as much as we are free to choose Good and Evil, God is free to choose where he wants Good and Evil in HIS universe. If He decides to NOT have it in his presence, thats his Choice.

If you Decide to NOT have God in your presence, thats your choice.

 

Since God is Good- to reject Good is to reject God.

To embrace Evil is to embrace the non presence of God.

By doing Good or doing Evil, we are basically making a choice between heaven or hell.

NO matter how many times you shout, I love burgers, as long as you keep running to the pizza, you really dont love burgers.

So shouting But I wanna go to heaven, doesnt mean you really do. Intellectually you might want to, but you love the pleasures of evil more than Good, and by our actions we can be judged. We cannot say, but God I really wanted to go to heaven.

 

I like two Girls, I can shout for millions of times how much I love the first Girl.

But that matters not if I go off and marry the second girl.

 

The same with God, You cannot just shout I want to go to heaven, but go off and do hellish things.

[Dianka]

Forget about the fact that they are now Atheists, or simply reject Christianity.

 

When you read through the testimonies, how were they any different than the "true" Christians when they did believe?

 

C'mon.....

.....are you avoiding?

[Cerise]

Two things.

 

1) You cannot prove that god exists.

 

2) Even if you could somehow prove that god exists, you could not prove that god is good.

 

Since God is Good

 

That should be IF God is Good.

 

And from what I've seen, your god has more evil in him than any storybook villain.

[Baggs]

Ok, well I am probably walking into a trap, but here it goes....

 

Oh and by the way, you owe me a response to my previous question...

I think the poeple in your passage gave up on God because they didn't get the eternal salvation and peace of mind that Christianity claimed to provide.

 

To some extent every one of the Ex-C's here were disenchanted with the lack of help from God, but if that was the only problem with religion I would never have left. I can tough it out through the bad times.

 

I left Christianity and faith all together because it makes no logical sense.

 

It got to the point where I had to choose between God and science. I chose the more reliable and stable of the two.

 

So the passage you posted doesn't apply to me or any other person who concluded that religion makes no logical sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for replying about the orange text. And no it's not a trap, I specifically told you that it wasnt.

 

As for your past question,

 

Riiiiight.....

 

So why are we still talking about this?

 

And how did you become the authority on who was a true Christian before rejecting it?

 

Forget about the fact that they are now Atheists, or simply reject Christianity.

 

When you read through the testimonies, how were they any different than the "true" Christians when they did believe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never claimed I was the authority on who was a true Christian, but hopefully you can figure it out for yourself too, we have one example right now.

If I call myself an ex bullfighter and I found out I wasnt even fighting a bull but a horse, and I found out I wasnt even fighting I was feeding, Can I call myself an Ex Bullfighter or an Ex HorseFeeder? I'm sure you can figure it out for yourself, whatever you come up with, thats your choice I have no problems with it.

 

"To some extent every one of the Ex-C's here were disenchanted with the lack of help from God, but if that was the only problem with religion I would never have left. I can tough it out through the bad times.

 

I left Christianity and faith all together because it makes no logical sense. "

If this is what you think is the majority (Every One of the Ex-C's).

If lack of help from God (for daily earthly wants/needs) is what you mean. I'm glad that you stated it then.

 

So the people you speak of then came to Christianity for providence. Interesting. Thank You for stating that.

 

(First time I'm using the term Providence, correct me if I used it improperly)

[Baggs]

Two things.

 

1)  You cannot prove that god exists.

 

2)  Even if you could somehow prove that god exists, you could not prove that god is good.

That should be IF God is Good.

 

And from what I've seen, your god has more evil in him than any storybook villain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should look at the context of what I said.

I'm stating beliefs here since obviously the person I'm replying to is looking for what Christian theology has to say. So I offered an example.

Basically the original poster is asking why do they believe this and what do they believe about it. So I stated it.

[Baggs]

Roleplaying example.

Stranger: What the heck is Zakat and what is it used for.

Muslim: Well Zakat is giving to the poor because Allah wants us to.

(somewhere stating that because Allah is good, He/She/It wants us to do good to others)

 

 

Then somone comes in: OBJECTION! You cant prove Allah exists and even if you could You cannot say that he/she/it is good.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

To simplify it, I stated it as a fact because I believe it.

[Cerise]

Roleplaying example.

Stranger: What the heck is Zakat and what is it used for.

Muslim: Well Zakat is giving to the poor because Allah wants us to.

(somewhere stating that because Allah is good, He/She/It wants us to do good to others)

Then somone comes in: OBJECTION! You cant prove Allah exists and even if you could You cannot say that he/she/it is good.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Not really. The entire idea of salvation only works if you can clearly define what you require saving from. You claim that we require saving from being without God's presence...that only works as an explanation if you can prove that god has a presence to begin with.

 

Same way you can say that people need to be saved from their sinful nature, but that only works so far as you can prove that people have a sinful nature to begin with.

[pandora]

Here's my two cents, daniel--

 

A Christian is one who believes Jesus is fully god and fully human, died, rose again, and will sit in final judgement of all mankind. The Nicene Creed is considered orthodox doctrine, and most Christian churches, even liberal ones, believe in it. This is the only requirement, and it is one of faith. Some denominations take a more liberal view of these requirements, others claim a literal interpretation is the only true way.

 

Once one has made this decision, denominations vary on what else is required for salvation. Some say that you don't need to do anything, once saved always saved... Some say you need to baptised, some say you must be immersed, others don't care about the method. Some think you must speak in tongues to prove your salvation. Some also think that one must do various good works, including reading the Bible, involved oneself in Christian fellowship, and charity.

 

Personally, I was a conservative, but not fundy, Christian. I truly believed in the literal accounts of Jesus' life. I prayed everynight and often cried in my prayers to God and Jesus. I was baptized as a Catholic, but never got rebaptised as a Protestant because I didn't see the need. I honestly felt that as a Catholic, I didn't understand the gospel message and that I wasn't saved. Looking back, however, I acted like more of a Christian as a Catholic than I did as a judgemental and pious Protestant.

 

I didn't leave the faith because it didn't serve me (indeed, I was very happy for the most part, except for being in agony over my unsaved family and friends). I didn't leave because I got burned or was abused. I left because it doesn't make sense. Blood atonement is an ancient and barbaric doctrine, and not new to even Judaism.

 

I left because history and science speak against the Bible, and to be intellectually honest with myself, I just couldn't believe anymore. It wasn't a conscious choice at all. It happened over a couple of years and then one day, I found myself refusing to claim the Christian label. If I did, I would have been lying to myself to whatever god is out there. It isn't that I just stopped looking for answers, I studied Hovind and Lee Strobel and C.S. Lewis and St. Augustine, as well as other more modern theologians like Buber and Tillich. I couldn't reconcile even the most liberal interpretation of Jesus with modern life, and the end result of that was a formal rejection of the faith (long after my mind had unofficially rejected it).

[Caretaker]

Not really.  The entire idea of salvation only works if you can clearly define what you require saving from.  You claim that we require saving from being without God's presence...that only works as an explanation if you can prove that god has a presence to begin with.

 

Same way you can say that people need to be saved from their sinful nature, but that only works so far as you can prove that people have a sinful nature to begin with.

Not to mention that whatever one is being saved from must be proven to exist

[Baggs]

Not really.  The entire idea of salvation only works if you can clearly define what you require saving from.  You claim that we require saving from being without God's presence...that only works as an explanation if you can prove that god has a presence to begin with.

 

Same way you can say that people need to be saved from their sinful nature, but that only works so far as you can prove that people have a sinful nature to begin with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see your point but I dont consider it applicable for that response.

 

Basically its like asking a priest why you need confession, then he states, well you need confession so sins can be forgiven.

Then you go off on a tangent saying, well you gotta prove to me that God exists first and that I need forgiveness and that I have a sinful nature and that God hears our prayers.

 

I personally dont think a person gets sent to hell for Adam's sin or man's sinful nature or the original sin.

I dont recall Jesus telling people, repent for Adam's sin. I think He was more focused on Our sins. " Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" not forgive us for adam's trespasses, the original sin, or man's sinful nature.

 

But even at that, Jesus wasnt focused on pointing out a person's sin but more focused on showing them that there is forgiveness, no matter what you have done in your life that God is so loving that he offers you a way out by paying for our transgressions himself. We broke God's laws and Jesus is our final atoning sacrifice, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He became Sin for us.

[pandora]

You reminded me of one final requirement for salvation, at least in western Christianity, that we need to repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness. The Christian life is primarily about this and trying to prevent the fact that one must ask for forgiveness in the first place.

[pandora]

Why does God need bloodshed to forgive sin? Isn't god's merciful and omnibenevolent nature enough?

[Baggs]

Here's my two cents, daniel--

 

A Christian is one who believes Jesus is fully god and fully human,  died, rose again, and will sit in final judgement of all mankind.  The Nicene Creed is considered orthodox doctrine, and most Christian churches, even liberal ones, believe in it. This is the only requirement, and it is one of faith.  Some denominations take a more liberal view of these requirements, others claim a literal interpretation is the only true way.

 

Once one has made this decision, denominations vary on what else is required for salvation.  Some say that you don't need to do anything, once saved always saved... Some say you need to baptised, some say you must be immersed, others don't care about the method.  Some think you must speak in tongues to prove your salvation.  Some also think that one must do various good works, including reading the Bible, involved oneself in Christian fellowship, and charity.

 

Personally, I was a conservative, but not fundy, Christian.  I truly believed in the literal accounts of Jesus' life.  I prayed everynight and often cried in my prayers to God and Jesus.  I was baptized as a Catholic, but never got rebaptised as a Protestant because I didn't see the need.  I honestly felt that as a Catholic, I didn't understand the gospel message and that I wasn't saved.  Looking back, however, I acted like more of a Christian as a Catholic than I did as a judgemental and pious Protestant.

 

I didn't leave the faith because it didn't serve me (indeed, I was very happy for the most part, except for being in agony over my unsaved family and friends).  I didn't leave because I got burned or was abused.  I left because it doesn't make sense.  Blood atonement is an ancient and barbaric doctrine, and not new to even Judaism.

 

I left because history and science speak against the Bible, and to be intellectually honest with myself, I just couldn't believe anymore.  It wasn't a conscious choice at all.  It happened over a couple of years and then one day, I found myself refusing to claim the Christian label.  If I did, I would have been lying to myself to whatever god is out there.  It isn't that I just stopped looking for answers, I studied Hovind and Lee Strobel and C.S. Lewis and St. Augustine, as well as other more modern theologians like Buber and Tillich.  I couldn't reconcile even the most liberal interpretation of Jesus with modern life, and the end result of that was a formal rejection of the faith (long after my mind had unofficially rejected it).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is an interesting story. Thank you for sharing and the honesty.

The Blood atonement is something I havent been deeply studying I only understand the basic concept of atoning sacrifice or the Blood on the posts when passover happened in egypt.

 

But basically I think of it in a modern way for myself.

I broke the law, and my mom loves me so much she sold everything she had to pay for my fine.

 

Since our sins wouldnt be paid for by money thats where the example ends.

 

I think of it this way, since one sin in the world has affected eternity, putting one drop of poison in a cup of water not only affects an equal of one drop of clean water, it affects the whole glass.

So putting a drop of sin in the cup of this universe, we have basically corrupted this universe.

And either way you believe if the universe is finite or infinite, having Jesus to pay for our sins means he can basically match the penalty for our crimes.

Since God is so valuable that He is more than enough payment for our sins that have tainted an infinite universe or a finite universe.

[Baggs]

Why does God need bloodshed to forgive sin?  Isn't god's merciful and omnibenevolent nature enough?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God is merciful Thats why He died for Our sins and not WE die for OUR sins.

[Baggs]

A good merciful judge found a guilty rapist and the rapist begged for mercy, and he set the rapist free right in front of the girl who got raped.

I wouldnt find the judge to be a Just Judge.

 

I would find it better if the pain could be matched, compensated for. And since God is well able to compensate and pay for, I personally think Jesus is more than enough payment even for rapist and murderers. Not limiting that God could make a way to make right what the person has done wrong. He can take away the pain of the event and other things but thats not a limit I am sure God is far more creative than I am and not just remove the pain but do greater things.

[Asimov]

God is merciful Thats why He died for Our sins and not WE die for OUR sins.

 

Um....we die because we are human.

[pandora]

God is merciful Thats why He died for Our sins and not WE die for OUR sins.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Granted, but why is this vague act of "faith" in such a ridiculous theology and history required?

 

Seems to me that our conscious acceptance of this is irrelevant if god is satisfied with this sacrifice. The Bible says every knee will bow, so eventually we apparently all accept this anyway. Why does it matter if it happens on earth or after we die, unless earth is some sort of test? If earth is a test, then it sure is a strange test... a test to see if we can blind ourselves to what apparent reality is and accept fairytales as literal Truth.

 

Sounds harsh, but it's how i feel.

 

 

Sorry I called you Daniel, I thought you were him for a moment...