Saved from what?

[Asimov]

Granted, but why is this vague act of "faith" in such a ridiculous theology and history required?

 

Seems to me that our conscious acceptance of this is irrelevant if god is satisfied with this sacrifice.  The Bible says every knee will bow, so eventually we apparently all accept this anyway.  Why does it matter if it happens on earth or after we die, unless earth is some sort of test?  If earth is a test, then it sure is a strange test... a test to see if we can blind ourselves to what apparent reality is and accept fairytales as literal Truth.

 

Sounds harsh, but it's how i feel.

Sorry I called you Daniel, I thought you were him for a moment...

 

 

It seems that Christian are only able to come up with little slogans that catch peoples eyes, rather than any logical arguments.

[pandora]

A good merciful judge found  a guilty rapist and the rapist begged for mercy, and he set the  rapist free right in front of the girl who got raped.

I wouldnt find the judge to be a Just Judge.

 

I would find it better if the pain could be matched, compensated for. And since God is well able to compensate and pay for, I personally think Jesus is more than enough payment even for rapist and murderers. Not limiting that God could make a way to make right what the person has done wrong. He can take away the pain of the event and other things but thats not a limit I am sure God is far more creative than I am and not just remove the pain but do greater things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So you bring in God's justice. This necessarily brings in the issue of free will vs. determinism.

 

Do we have free will? Then god's justice makes sense. If sin was an inevitable part of creation, then we are not responsible for it, and god's justice is unfair and very ungodly.

 

As for your rape analogy, only some religions see forgiveness this way. To me, it is because of the human nature of the person that was raped that this seems unfair. Isn't the definition of God's mercy one that includes a disregard for the evil done? Pure forgiveness and total acceptance without any strings attached? Does God do justice just to placate the humans that were harmed?

 

Isn't crucifixion a relatively light judgement and punishment compared to the actual decree of God, which is eternal hellfire? I mean really, God is confused if dying on the cross equals what god initially had in store for us.

[pandora]

It seems that Christian are only able to come up with little slogans that catch peoples eyes, rather than any logical arguments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep. I think Philosophy of Religion should be a required course for every Christian wishing to debate these basic topics. Then they would be able to think out of the box long enough to understand our arguments at their core (besides my inability to articulate them well... )

[Baggs]

Granted, but why is this vague act of "faith" in such a ridiculous theology and history required?

 

Seems to me that our conscious acceptance of this is irrelevant if god is satisfied with this sacrifice.  The Bible says every knee will bow, so eventually we apparently all accept this anyway.  Why does it matter if it happens on earth or after we die, unless earth is some sort of test?  If earth is a test, then it sure is a strange test... a test to see if we can blind ourselves to what apparent reality is and accept fairytales as literal Truth.

 

Sounds harsh, but it's how i feel.

Sorry I called you Daniel, I thought you were him for a moment...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Np about the Daniel. That sounded like a nice name anyway. Haha. Anyways.

 

I personally am studying about that right now cause I am questioning the traditional requirements for salvation. That is partly the reason why I am asking them what they think made them a Christian in the first place to see what different sects have been teaching people.

 

Right now I personally believe the 3 steps. Something I posted somewhere I cant remember but its here.

 

1 Realizing I have done things that I need to change. (I've sinned and I need to repent of them) ( Repent- Born again, a new mindset, a second chance, a new life.)

2 Accepting forgiveness through Jesus Christ. -(this the one I'm re evaluating right now.)

3 Live life loving others. ( 2 Commandments, Love God and Love your neighbor, But added Jesus said "If you have done this to the least of these my bretheren you have done it unto me" thus concluding Love others as the way to fulfil both 1st and 2nd commandment)

( Verses that led me to this = John 14:21-22 John 15:10,12,14,17 )

 

Step 2 is basically what I am personally studying because I'm starting to depart from the traditional " you have to believe this this this to be a Christian".

And currently the things I am getting from reading the Bible would probably be considered heracy by the traditional protestant/catholic denominations. Thats why I am trying to really study it.

[Baggs]

So you bring in God's justice.  This necessarily brings in the issue of free will vs. determinism.

 

Do we have free will?  Then god's justice makes sense.  If sin was an inevitable part of creation, then we are not responsible for it, and god's justice is unfair and very ungodly.

 

As for your rape analogy, only some religions see forgiveness this way.  To me, it is  because of the human nature of the person that was raped that this seems unfair.  Isn't the definition of God's mercy one that includes a disregard for the evil done?  Pure forgiveness and total acceptance without any strings attached?  Does God do justice just to placate the humans that were harmed? 

 

Isn't crucifixion a relatively light judgement and punishment compared to the actual decree of God, which is eternal hellfire?  I mean really, God is confused if dying on the cross equals what god initially had in store for us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll start with the hellfire bit, my view of hell is stated on the other long post I posted in this topic.

 

As for the free will and determinism.

Eventually somone will use a nuke to harm somone, should we blame the person who developed nuclear technology even if his motives for it was to make nuclear powerplant to make life easy?

Or should we blame the man who invented the wheel for car accidents?

[pandora]

Np about the Daniel. That sounded like a nice name anyway. Haha.  Anyways.

 

I personally am studying about that right now cause I am questioning the traditional requirements for salvation. That is partly the reason why I am asking them what they think made them a Christian in the first place to see what different sects have been teaching people.

 

Right now I personally believe the 3 steps. Something I posted somewhere I cant remember but its here.

 

1 Realizing I have done things that I need to change. (I've sinned and I need to repent of them) ( Repent- Born again, a new mindset, a second chance, a new life.)

2 Accepting forgiveness through Jesus Christ. -(this the one I'm re evaluating right now.)

3 Live  life loving others. ( 2 Commandments, Love God and Love your neighbor, But added Jesus said "If you have done this to the least of these my bretheren you have done it unto me" thus concluding  Love others as the way to fulfil both 1st and 2nd commandment)

( Verses that led me to this = John 14:21-22 John 15:10,12,14,17  )

 

Step 2 is basically what I am personally studying because I'm starting to depart from the traditional " you have to believe this this this to be a Christian".

And currently the things I am getting from reading the Bible would probably be considered heracy by the traditional protestant/catholic denominations. Thats why I am trying to really study it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Coolness... kudos to you. Good luck. There are Christians out there that would support your search and give you their own takes on the topic, but you are right, you won't find them in the traditional denominations.

 

I must warn you, this kind of thinking is what was the beginning of the end for me. Many people study these things and become religious inclusivists or pluralists (basicaly universalists, like the poster Amanda here). I tried the whole universalist/liberal Christian thing for a while, but I finally decided it if takes this much study to get to what is a reasonable faith, then that faith is not that important and so diluted from what god intended. God isn't stepping in to right all this misinterpretration, so it must not matter much anyway. I don't see a need to immerse myself in any particular faith since no faith is pure.

 

And in actuality, I am an agnostic obsessed with god as other posters have put it. I haven't completely quit my search, I am just no longer obsessed with finding Truth and avoiding hell.

[Baggs]

I think disclaimers are great example.

I can invent a toy and write down " choking hazard" and they cant blame me for a kid choking on it. Eventually some negledgent parent (correct my spelling on that) would leave their kid and would choke, but thats not my fault anymore cause I put disclaimer.

The question is, what about the people who didnt get a disclaimer? Well thats why theres a judgement day so they can tell that to God.

[Caretaker]

Or should we blame the man who invented the wheel for car accidents?

In today's litigous society, I don't think that is unheard of.

[Baggs]

Coolness... kudos to you.  Good luck.  There are Christians out there that would support your search and give you their own takes on the topic, but you are right, you won't find them in the traditional denominations.

 

I must warn you, this kind of thinking is what was the beginning of the end for me.  Many people study these things and become religious inclusivists or pluralists (basicaly universalists, like the poster Amanda here).  I tried the whole universalist/liberal Christian thing for a while, but I finally decided it if takes this much study to get to what is a reasonable faith, then that faith is not that important and so diluted from what god intended.  God isn't stepping in to right all this misinterpretration, so it must not matter much anyway.    I don't see a need to immerse myself in any particular faith since no faith is pure.

 

And in actuality, I am an agnostic obsessed with god as other posters have put it.  I haven't completely quit my search, I am just no longer obsessed with finding Truth and avoiding hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats actually similar to what I am at right now.

Basically I am questioning why people say, why do you need to believe in Jesus death burial ressurection to be forgiven.

I personally right now believe that God is more concerned about just forgiving us than us having to understand HOW He forgives us.

 

At the same time John 3:16 isnt even Jesus talking in that context.

I havent seen a single passage in the Bible that states Jesus saying I came to earth from heaven so 3 years from now you will crucify me and thats how God forgives you and when you believe that you will be forgiven. -- thats what the traditional belief on forgiveness is and I personally question it cause when Jesus forgave people He just forgave them. He wasnt worried about telling them HOW they get forgiven.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I dont see why we have to believe God pays for our crimes using cash or check, the fact is, he paid for it and thats why we are free.

Ofcourse I still believe that to stay free you have to repent - a free prisoner who comes back and robbs a bank obviously goes straight back to jail Lol.

[pandora]

I'll start with the hellfire bit, my view of hell is stated on the other long post I posted in this topic.

 

As for the free will and determinism.

Eventually somone will use a nuke to harm somone, should we blame the person who developed nuclear technology even if his motives for it was to make nuclear powerplant to make life easy?

Or should we blame the man who invented the wheel for car accidents?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yes, but a human did those things. God is traditionally viewed as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. This is logically impossible with reality. God knew we'd fuck up. God even planted a tree and provided a snake to tempt us. God created the possibility for evil (and this is true even if you see this as allegorical). God didn't create a world where we could know good without experiencing it, even though this is theoretically within god's all-powerful nature. In my opinion, to make Christianity plausible, one would have to strip away one of god's essential qualities.

 

Augustine has some interesting solutions to these problems ("Evil is a Privation of Good" and others), but I personally don't see him providing a good case that we MUST experience evil in order to appreciate good.

 

I'm not very good at explaining all this, for I am just now reading the traditional philosophical texts and learning the formal philosophical issues at stake. The more I learn, the more complicated and fuzzy it all becomes. The more one tries tries to rationalize Christianity, the more mental gymnastics one has to endure. Eastern religions don't have nearly the philosophical problems that Christiantiy does. Maybe there is a perfect solution, like I said, but if I have to get a Ph.D. in philosophy to get to it, then it obviously isn't that important in the End, whatever end that may be.

[pandora]

Thats actually similar to what I am at right now.

Basically I am questioning why people say, why do you need to believe in Jesus death burial ressurection to be forgiven.

I personally right now believe that God is more concerned about just forgiving us than us having to understand HOW He forgives us.

 

At the same time John 3:16 isnt even Jesus talking in that context.

I havent seen a single passage in the Bible that states Jesus saying  I came to earth from heaven so 3 years from now you will crucify me and thats how God forgives you and when you believe that you will be forgiven. -- thats what the traditional belief on forgiveness is and I personally question it cause when Jesus forgave people He just forgave them. He wasnt worried about telling them HOW they get forgiven.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I dont see why we have to believe God pays for our crimes using cash or check, the fact is, he paid for it and thats why we are free.

Ofcourse I still believe that to stay free you have to repent - a free prisoner who comes back and robbs a bank obviously goes straight back to jail Lol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Interesting.

 

I think that repentance is just a nice thing to do, whether in the context of God and eternity or not. It is an essential part of being a decent human being, and very few human beings do not understand this, ya know what I mean? I agree with you, but I don't even think one needs to petition a god in order to successfully repent. I don't even think that(if there is a god) that god cares about these little details. I don't even think this possible god is personal in that sense, we have just put that quality on god. If there is a god, I think the eastern view is more plausible, but even then, I don't think it really fucking matters.

 

I think you agree with me to some extent. Ok, now I am repeating myself so I am going to bed.

[Baggs]

""In my opinion, to make Christianity plausible, one would have to strip away one of god's essential qualities.""

 

Hehe Yeah, I've already done that a long time ago and I dont have a problem with it.

 

For example, omnipresent - hell is the non presence of God as my previous post basically asserted.

Omnipotent - God cannot tell a lie - and no he will not make a rock he cannot lift or microwave a burrito so hot that he cannot eat. - why? cause those are not his nature to do things in vain.

So there goes 2 of those qualities. I personally dont have a problem with it.

[MQTA]

Well, MQTA hasn't stated he's an ex-Christian from what I recall....so your argument is moot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Very true. Wasn't born one, won't die one.

 

The reason why I asked is due to all the Christians arguing over How to Be Saved, why it's faith or works or grace or changing banks. So I asked what, exactly, are they being Saved From.

 

Seems like a soap opera where someone saves someone's life, but they saved them after setting up a trap and THE situation that would be KILLING them, in the first place.

 

It's like when a 10 yr old tells his 6 yr old brother there's a bogeyman in the other room and he makes himself look like a big man by going to beat him up before his brother is attacked. There is no bogeyman, just a big brother with a big ego who wants to be worshipped by his little brother.

[MQTA]

I like two Girls, I can shout for millions of times how much I love the first Girl.

But that matters not if I go off and marry the second girl.

 

The same with God, You cannot just shout I want to go to heaven, but go off and do hellish things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for the explanation. Doesn't answer the question though.

 

Christians thing there's only one way to do things, and the plan comes from their Church, they follow the Calendar, and do everything prescribed and given to them to do.

 

IF someone doesn't do that, it doesn't automatically mean they're doing evil things.

 

Since my bloodline has no Christians, nor murderers or anyone that I know of that's ever been jailed or locked away in mental institutions, we must be living the way the real God designed. So where ever my dead relatives are, if there's anything following this existance that we'll some how know about, then I'm sure I'll be seeing them.

 

Christianity never made any sense to me, and then after reading and researching the NT, it seems clear. I understand why the world and its inhabitants are so screwed up. We park on driveways and drive on parkways. Everything is opposite or distorted.

 

This is the worst game of telephone I ever saw.

[MQTA]

Not really.  The entire idea of salvation only works if you can clearly define what you require saving from.  You claim that we require saving from being without God's presence...that only works as an explanation if you can prove that god has a presence to begin with.

 

Same way you can say that people need to be saved from their sinful nature, but that only works so far as you can prove that people have a sinful nature to begin with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right. I think it all comes down to the two letters used so often in explanations.

 

IF.

 

IF is a big word. IF IF IF IF IF. My mother used to stop me right in any IF tracks. IF. If the Queen had balls, she'd be King. If everyone jumped off the Empire State Building, would you join them?

 

It's like the use of a defined word 'saved' has become a Thing. A label. You are "Saved". Why question FROM WHAT, there's nothing there to be saved from.

 

It's an illusion, a marketing ploy, and without concrete, deceit.

[Dio]

I guess what I'm saying is, I dont see why we have to believe God pays for our crimes using cash or check, the fact is, he paid for it and thats why we are free.

I guess what I'm saying is, I dont see why we have to believe God pays for our crimes at all. If he did indeed pay for them, they are paid for.

 

 

 

Ofcourse I still believe that to stay free you have to repent - a free prisoner who comes back and robbs a bank obviously goes straight back to jail Lol

Ok, so you can't sin again or it's all for naught. Guess we're all in the same boat, unless you've somehow stopped sinning completely.

[Ouroboros]

Ok. So Biblically, What makes a Christian?

Easy.

 

1. Convert to a Catholic and go to church, pray, etc. Follow the orthodox rituals. (Salvation only through the Church)

 

or

 

2. Ask Jesus to come into your heart, and make him your master, get baptized and make a public announcement (Salvation through one event)

 

or

 

3. Become a Lutheran, and work on your salvation the rest of your life (Salvation is a life process)

 

or

 

...