Science And Religion Aren't Friends

[Legion]

... it doesn't change what is...

As Deva alluded, it changes your mind. Well, it changes my mind anyway. If I am feeling anxious, or worried, or scared then I sing "all is one" and the divisions in the world that my mind creates are loosened and with that the fear is loosened.

[Phanta]

... it doesn't change what is...

As Deva alluded, it changes your mind. Well, it changes my mind anyway. If I am feeling anxious, or worried, or scared then I sing "all is one" and the divisions in the world that my mind creates are loosened and with that the fear is loosened.

 

Me, too, Legion.

[Deva]

... if you really go into this and meditate on the interconnectedness of everything - a total change in your whole orientation to life happens.

I don't mean to be a curmudgeon, but ... so what? It's all interconnected, or it's not ... it doesn't change what is and whether I find it satisfactory.

 

Oh, but it does. It really does. For the record, I am not fond of the "matrix" either, but it is alterable in the sense that your perception of it changes. That's what I mean and it is significant.

[Vixentrox]

... if you really go into this and meditate on the interconnectedness of everything - a total change in your whole orientation to life happens.

I don't mean to be a curmudgeon, but ... so what? It's all interconnected, or it's not ... it doesn't change what is and whether I find it satisfactory.

 

Oh, but it does. It really does. For the record, I am not fond of the "matrix" either, but it is alterable in the sense that your perception of it changes. That's what I mean and it is significant.

Maybe for you. I find it a big "so what". I don't give a crap if something is connected or not. There is nothing amazing in it for me.

[DesertBob]

... it doesn't change what is...

As Deva alluded, it changes your mind. Well, it changes my mind anyway. If I am feeling anxious, or worried, or scared then I sing "all is one" and the divisions in the world that my mind creates are loosened and with that the fear is loosened.

Different strokes for different folks. I admit that most of the peace I've found in life has come from allowing life to change me rather than engaging in a futile attempt to change life. Counter-intuitively not struggling against the pull of the quicksand. But this interconnectedness thing isn't the way in for me. I have to give myself permission to capitulate. I have to let life be what it is, by allowing it to displace what I am. As Christians would put it, "I must decrease, that he might increase". Kind of ironic that you go to the trouble to drop the religious forms and end up eating the same underlying dogshit anyway, and it turns out that there's not even an omnibenevolent personal god to rationalize doing it for.

 

Come to think of it, that is probably what kept me being one of the sheeple for so long. The myth, and the various promises it bestows, taken literally, made life tolerable for me by telling me it would all be made right somehow, eventually. That also explains the enduring nature of the myth. It's the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down.

 

What is gradually getting me out into the clear is to quit approaching what's left of my life as something to be salvaged and manipulated for my benefit, and just seeing what it will deign to give me in the way of breathing space as-is. Interconnected or not.

[Deva]

Kind of ironic that you go to the trouble to drop the religious forms and end up eating the same underlying dogshit anyway, and it turns out that there's not even an omnibenevolent personal god to rationalize doing it for.

 

Would you like to elaborate on why you think it is "the same underlying dogshit?"

 

 

What is gradually getting me out into the clear is to quit approaching what's left of my life as something to be salvaged and manipulated for my benefit, and just seeing what it will deign to give me in the way of breathing space as-is. Interconnected or not.

 

Interconnectedness is a fact. Whether that fact does anything for you or not is your business. I don't see the manipulation for personal benefit in realizing the total implications of what is a fact.

 

I must admit I was surprised to read this type of thing coming from you, DesertBob, considering I have read with appreciation so many of your other very thoughtful posts.

[Antlerman]

... if you really go into this and meditate on the interconnectedness of everything - a total change in your whole orientation to life happens.

I don't mean to be a curmudgeon, but ... so what? It's all interconnected, or it's not ... it doesn't change what is and whether I find it satisfactory.

 

Oh, but it does. It really does. For the record, I am not fond of the "matrix" either, but it is alterable in the sense that your perception of it changes. That's what I mean and it is significant.

Maybe for you. I find it a big "so what". I don't give a crap if something is connected or not. There is nothing amazing in it for me.

A little spoon of Lemon Pudding to brighten your day, perhaps?

 

Next time your loved one tells you they feel connected with you, make sure you respond like this.

[Legion]

That was funny Antlerman.

 

Interconnectedness... Bah humbug, grumble, grumble

[DesertBob]

Kind of ironic that you go to the trouble to drop the religious forms and end up eating the same underlying dogshit anyway, and it turns out that there's not even an omnibenevolent personal god to rationalize doing it for.

Would you like to elaborate on why you think it is "the same underlying dogshit?"

I think the whole original paragraph in context does the job. Life is all about reconfiguring yourself over and over again to align with current reality. This requires letting go of various things and some of those are worthy of tossing overboard (your dross) and some are not (your gold). How you feel about it is basically a function of how much real value you've been relieved of and how flexible you can be about finding value in whatever is left or in that which can be found around you. At times like this, I feel that I have flexed about all I'm able to and still be able to feel like life is a rational proposition.

Interconnectedness is a fact.

Agreed.

Whether that fact does anything for you or not is your business.

Not really, or I'd be able to decide if I like the connections or not. It's not my business at all. It is what it is.

I don't see the manipulation for personal benefit in realizing the total implications of what is a fact.

Assuming you had a beloved dog, life could take that dog and leave you a pet ferret in its place. You might not see much benefit in that, though, despite being told that there are lonely people who would love to have the ferret.

I must admit I was surprised to read this type of thing coming from you, DesertBob, considering I have read with appreciation so many of your other very thoughtful posts.

Thoughfulness cuts both ways. Sometimes awareness brings delights, and other times, well, not so much. By "this type of thing" I take you to mean that this insight, unlike my others, is not up to my usual standards. For that I am sorry, but again, it is what it is. If it helps any, understand that these statements represent one aspect of my current awareness, and that in the main I don't burden others with it. It's my burden, and I mostly carry it alone. Sometimes, in the quasi-anonymity of this forum, I share a bit of it -- probably too much, because really, if anyone is going to care about these things, it's me, and I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure that even I do. As such, I can't ask that of anyone else.

 

My main thought was that others will feel life at times like a millstone around their necks, too, and they might feel a little less alone to know that it's part of the process. Dark nights of the soul have their place, unfortunately. New agers like to describe it as all sweetness and light, but the phrase "reality bites" applies here.

[Legion]

DesertBob I think you could start a band called Existential Funk.

[Deva]

I think the whole original paragraph in context does the job. Life is all about reconfiguring yourself over and over again to align with current reality. This requires letting go of various things and some of those are worthy of tossing overboard (your dross) and some are not (your gold). How you feel about it is basically a function of how much real value you've been relieved of and how flexible you can be about finding value in whatever is left or in that which can be found around you. At times like this, I feel that I have flexed about all I'm able to and still be able to feel like life is a rational proposition.

 

I don't quite think it does the job. I don't see thinking about interconnectedness as that much related to the religion I came from. I think the difference between us, I guess, is that I don't feel life is a "rational proposition." I gave that up long ago. Yes, I find my own value, and isn't that what most of us do, who really think and don't just accept automatically what someone else values?

 

I am not sure why you threw in the line about "sweetness and light". I don't think that is what has been presented here. I say a transformation of the mind is possible when interconnectedness is reflected upon deeply. If you disagree, I accept that. It is your position, it is your business. By that, I mean I am not interested in forcing my views or trying to deeply debate things with you. I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I don't know how else to put it --either you see it or you don't.

 

Dark nights of the soul do exist and there are times when nothing suffices. So where does that take us? Do we just leave it at that or do we continue pursuing what is meaningful to us?

[DesertBob]

I don't see thinking about interconnectedness as that much related to the religion I came from.

I get that. I see it as a concept that isn't dependent upon religion or theism.

I think the difference between us, I guess, is that I don't feel life is a "rational proposition." I gave that up long ago. Yes, I find my own value, and isn't that what most of us do, who really think and don't just accept automatically what someone else values?

I find some value, but in significant ways, I'm not finding that much. We find life compelling when it gives us at least as much as it takes from us. That's the "rational proposition". I suppose you have a problem with that because you aren't particularly concerned that you rationally comprehend much of what is going on. The ability that some have to simply shrug and accept everything that comes onto their plate does amaze me. It is not my forte, much of the time anyway.

I say a transformation of the mind is possible when interconnectedness is reflected upon deeply ... either you see it or you don't.

I am not debating the point. It is probably true, at least for some people, some of the time. Maybe for anyone. I have delved into this sort of thing in what seems to me a sufficient way, and I haven't "seen it". I'm happy that you have.

Dark nights of the soul do exist and there are times when nothing suffices. So where does that take us? Do we just leave it at that or do we continue pursuing what is meaningful to us?

There is little choice but to pursue what is meaningful or die trying. For many years my life was a soul-crushing exercise in futility, and at least I am now past that, for the present at any rate. I wake up each morning bemused rather than full of dread. This is relative progress. My main challenge now is to function in the absence of trust, for lack of a better way to put it. This is what you would call the impermanence of all things. I have a real problem with it, as you might have guessed.

 

Anyway, onward, into the breach ...

[Galien]

Funny how human nature usually gets left out of the equation, yet it is responsible for so much that sucks on both sides.

[Galien]

I find some value, but in significant ways, I'm not finding that much. We find life compelling when it gives us at least as much as it takes from us. That's the "rational proposition". I suppose you have a problem with that because you aren't particularly concerned that you rationally comprehend much of what is going on. The ability that some have to simply shrug and accept everything that comes onto their plate does There is little choice but to pursue what is meaningful or die trying. For many years my life was a soul-crushing exercise in futility, and at least I am now past that, for the present at any rate. I wake up each morning bemused rather than full of dread. This is relative progress. My main challenge now is to function in the absence of trust, for lack of a better way to put it. This is what you would call the impermanence of all things. I have a real problem with it, as you might have guessed.

 

Anyway, onward, into the breach ...

 

I am hearing you completely Bob. People often make the mistake of assuming life is some kind of one size fits all proposition. Frankly the amount of homicides I have almost committed over that shit is getting ridiculous. Now I just hold up my hand and say you can stop right there, I would never assume I know what it is like to be someone else, and I would like the same courtesy but I rarely get it. When it comes to our subjective perceptions a little more humility wouldn't go astray, particularly exercised by those who think life can be fixed by a one hour episode of Dr Phil.

 

Life is complex, not simple. Oh, that it were!

[DesertBob]

I am hearing you completely Bob. People often make the mistake of assuming life is some kind of one size fits all proposition. Frankly the amount of homicides I have almost committed over that shit is getting ridiculous. Now I just hold up my hand and say you can stop right there, I would never assume I know what it is like to be someone else, and I would like the same courtesy but I rarely get it. When it comes to our subjective perceptions a little more humility wouldn't go astray, particularly exercised by those who think life can be fixed by a one hour episode of Dr Phil.

 

Life is complex, not simple. Oh, that it were!

THANK YOU

[Guest end3]

Assuming you had a beloved dog, life could take that dog and leave you a pet ferret in its place. You might not see much benefit in that, though, despite being told that there are lonely people who would love to have the ferret.

 

Thoughfulness cuts both ways. Sometimes awareness brings delights, and other times, well, not so much. By "this type of thing" I take you to mean that this insight, unlike my others, is not up to my usual standards. For that I am sorry, but again, it is what it is. If it helps any, understand that these statements represent one aspect of my current awareness, and that in the main I don't burden others with it. It's my burden, and I mostly carry it alone. Sometimes, in the quasi-anonymity of this forum, I share a bit of it -- probably too much, because really, if anyone is going to care about these things, it's me, and I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure that even I do. As such, I can't ask that of anyone else.

 

My main thought was that others will feel life at times like a millstone around their necks, too, and they might feel a little less alone to know that it's part of the process. Dark nights of the soul have their place, unfortunately. New agers like to describe it as all sweetness and light, but the phrase "reality bites" applies here.

 

Well, don't give up on the connectedness Bob, regardless. It is the mechanism that gives and brings what the "beloved dog" used to, to your life. That you identify with suffering a loss would possibly help make you available to someone else who needs that dog. I would hope that you will consider it.

[Vixentrox]

... if you really go into this and meditate on the interconnectedness of everything - a total change in your whole orientation to life happens.

I don't mean to be a curmudgeon, but ... so what? It's all interconnected, or it's not ... it doesn't change what is and whether I find it satisfactory.

 

Oh, but it does. It really does. For the record, I am not fond of the "matrix" either, but it is alterable in the sense that your perception of it changes. That's what I mean and it is significant.

Maybe for you. I find it a big "so what". I don't give a crap if something is connected or not. There is nothing amazing in it for me.

A little spoon of Lemon Pudding to brighten your day, perhaps?

 

Next time your loved one tells you they feel connected with you, make sure you respond like this.

I'd smile but most likely think "oh geeze...how lame."

[Antlerman]

Maybe for you. I find it a big "so what". I don't give a crap if something is connected or not. There is nothing amazing in it for me.

A little spoon of Lemon Pudding to brighten your day, perhaps?

 

Next time your loved one tells you they feel connected with you, make sure you respond like this.

I'd smile but most likely think "oh geeze...how lame."

There was a woman I used to work with, who no matter what was always able to find the dark side to give her life some sense of identity. I will never forget this moment. Her son gave her a dozen roses for her birthday, which for some reason she set on the shelf above her desk. All her co-workers, which I was there to witness this moment, remarked to her how lovely they were, and how special it was that her son would do this for her!

 

Her response?? "Yeah, I don't know. It's just.... a bit too much."

 

 

 

 

That was such a tragic glimpse into her fractured soul. Is your name Barb?

[Galien]

I look at it this way, there are more things in earth than I will ever understand. If I don't have mystical experiences it doesn't mean that they don't exist or that other people don't have them. I am not them so how would I ever know. I have had deep depressions that people will never understand if they don't experience it, or that they tell me is just my perception, but how can they know that if they are not me. They cannot crawl inside my heart and head and have my experiences any more than I can crawl into theirs.

 

I don't feel comfortable telling other people that their experiences are illusions, because the truth is, I don't know what they are. I find the certainty of laughing at other people's beliefs and experiences is WAY too much like the way christians behave. It is exactly that idea that I had all the answers that I want to get away from and stay away from.

[DesertBob]

Well, don't give up on the connectedness Bob, regardless. It is the mechanism that gives and brings what the "beloved dog" used to, to your life. That you identify with suffering a loss would possibly help make you available to someone else who needs that dog. I would hope that you will consider it.

The dog was just a metaphor, but yes, my losses have enabled me to be present for others in similar situations (notice I did not say, "help them", as no one can do that).

[Vixentrox]

You assume there is a soul to be fractured unless it was just a figure of speech. I see no evidence of such a mythological thing as a soul. And how should she have responded? She got them, they were nice...why does there need to be anything else?

[Guest end3]

Well, don't give up on the connectedness Bob, regardless. It is the mechanism that gives and brings what the "beloved dog" used to, to your life. That you identify with suffering a loss would possibly help make you available to someone else who needs that dog. I would hope that you will consider it.

The dog was just a metaphor, but yes, my losses have enabled me to be present for others in similar situations (notice I did not say, "help them", as no one can do that).

 

I'm glad you understood my post. Was trying to be invasive or offensive, just trying to be helpful. My apologies if I overstepped.

[DesertBob]

I'm glad you understood my post. Was trying to be invasive or offensive, just trying to be helpful. My apologies if overstepped.

You didn't overstep; no apology needed. I recognize and appreciate your motivations.

[DesertBob]

And how should she have responded? She got them, they were nice...why does there need to be anything else?

Actually there didn't need to be anything else, but she threw it in anyway -- a complaint / criticism for an act of kindness.

[Galien]

Well maybe the lady couldn't handle it and it WAS all too much for her. I know people so traumatised by their overwhelming feelings they can't take any kindness at all. Some people's feelings overwhelm them so much they dissociate themselves from their soul, and can exist more peacefully that way, or exist at all.

 

Again in this life, one size does NOT fit all. Some of us have deep souls and we can handle it, some have deep souls and can't. Same applies to shallow souls. We are all different, and we are ALLOWED to be.