My gift to all people that post here.

[Checkmate]

Sigh. daniel_1012. I won't even flame you. I'm too busy feeling sorry for you. You're wasting your life, and for what? A fairy tale. A fairy tale that you desperately seek to export to others so you don't have to be alone with your delusions. How sad. How truly sad and tragic. Please get a clue before you waste your entire life on NOTHING but delusion.

[mwc]

Ahhh...no one is taking daniel_1012's posting seriously. Don't worry. I'll give it a shot since it's really annoying when you post something that the xians, er, I mean other people, ignore. I'll also do one better and actually address what you wrote.

 

I believe that if God's word did not still exist in a tangible form such as the Bible where men could reference, the earth would cease to exist.  Though God's truth is very much ALIVE outside of the Bible, in His children -- this point of reference is important for Christians, and all men alike.  I believe that if God's word was not still in the world, we would all be already wiped out, because God would have no reason to allow man to live if without His Word.

How did the world exist prior to the bible? Isn't jesus supposed to be the "word?" So is the bible the word or is it jesus?

 

(Proverbs 30:5) - Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Oh, I don't know about this Lets check "gods" word:.

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 

 

Hast thou not seen those who pretend that they believe in that which is revealed unto thee and that which was revealed before thee, how they would go for judgment (in their disputes) to false deities when they have been ordered to abjure them ? Satan would mislead them far astray.  Those who refuse to follow Muhammad, follow false gods and are deceived by Satan.

 

And when it is said unto them: Come unto that which Allah hath revealed and unto the messenger, thou seest the hypocrites turn from thee with aversion."

The Quran isn't "gods" word? Only a "god" would know you'd say something like this:

That, when Our revelations are recited to him, he saith: mere fables of the men of old.

So it must be true. The Quran (and Allah) knew you'd say it was fake and wrote into itself that you'd claim it was fake. This alone shows it is real since it knew ahead of time that you would say it wasn't. So the bible is fake since the Quran is true (it says so).

 

What I believe is that everything in the Bible is a carbon copy of the truth, though the Bible itself is not the truth, the Bible is truth's carbon copy.  I believe God had it written by men who knew Him, men who loved Him, and I believe men today speak truth that is equally the Word.  However, not being part of the carbon copy passed down through time, of course we don't add to it, or we put that carbon copy in jeopardy.  However, even today men can speak the truth, and not find it verbatim in the Bible.  I believe that those words, if they be the truth, will be yet another carbon copy of the Word given to us in the Bible -- if those words are different from what our Bible carbon copy says, then they are false.

So the truth is only the truth if it agrees with a flawed copy of the truth?

 

(Luke 1:1-4)

So Luke admits that he didn't witness anything first hand. Try this. Get a group of people together and whisper a secret to one of them. Have them pass it on one by one and see what comes out the other end. You could also try the experiment (which has been done many times) to show that even first hand eye witnesses aren't reliable. To say that these guys magically broke from human nature and wrote an accurate account is wishful thinking on your part.

 

I believe this carbon copy is only a piece of a larger puzzle that cannot be seen or completed on earth, just as an entire puzzle is only a snapshot of a larger world it cannot complete.

 

[also lots of other strange puzzle references]

So life is a puzzle? A puzzle inside a puzzle? A puzzling puzzle? I'm not sure where "god" created a puzzle in your book. Did it happen before or after old Adam and Eve ate that fruit? Did "god" forget to mention that he was mixing things up when he kicked them out of his yard?

 

Your point seems to be that only "god" can solve this puzzle. So then why should we even bother? We work on the puzzle our whole existance (even though we can't solve it) and then "god" shouts "time's up" and puts it all together for us? Gotta admit this sounds kinda lame. The whole thing sounds like a version of Sisyphus and his rock.

 

What do we do with puzzles when we put them together?  Most people start at its edge, and establish its borders.  This is the first thing that is done.  Once its whole border is established, we work our way inward as with any puzzle.  As we work our way inward, a bigger picture is revealed, having used this border as a guide.  Although a puzzle can be put together from the center piece, its highly inefficient.  Time and trials have proven it to be a longer and a more difficult road. 

Has there actually been research done on this? I'm assuming that there has been since this is very authoritive. I personally have done puzzles both ways and I don't know if one was any more or less difficult than the other (it really depends on the puzzle). Of course, you take the air out of my argument, since you start by telling me that "most people" do puzzles this way. I guess if "most people" do it that way then they must be right. By the same token 2/3's of the world doesn't believe in your "god." I guess "most people" are right.

 

The Bible is a shadow of the truth, we go to it for the shape of God, and if we follow it we will find him.  Though sometimes that shape appears short in mid-day, dawn and dusk it looks long and narrow -- still at other times when the light hits it just right, we see the shape of God just as He is.  Though in all shapes, it is Him all the same -- depending upon how the light hits it, when it hits it, the length and girth of God is revealed in different ways.  I believe that like a shadow, if we follow it along its set borders, then we will eventually come to the feet of God who is casting the shadow shown to us by the Bible.  Like a shadow -- it is not the truth... God is the truth, and if you truly follow it, you will find Him standing at it's beginning.

So if the bible is the shadow of truth then "god" is the object casting the shadow. So what's the light shining on "god" to cast this shadow? Your metaphore seems incomplete. Is the light truth? I thought "god" was the truth. Isn't jesus the light of the world? Is jesus the light cast upon "god?" So then is "god" his own light that he casts upon himself to create a shadow that is the bible? You realize that a shadow is really the absence of light, right? So the bible, if jesus and/or "god" is the light then the bible is the absence thereof. So by your reasoning the bible does not contain the light (whatever that is) because "god" is getting in the way.

 

Also, I don't really care to talk about, or hear, how "gods" "length and girth" is revealed (is this really even appropriate).

 

mwc

[sixoverme]

So if the bible is the shadow of truth then "god" is the object casting the shadow.  So what's the light shining on "god" to cast this shadow?  Your metaphore seems incomplete.  Is the light truth?  I thought "god" was the truth.  Isn't jesus the light of the world?  Is jesus the light cast upon "god?"  So then is "god" his own light that he casts upon himself to create a shadow that is the bible?  You realize that a shadow is really the absence of light, right?  So the bible, if jesus and/or "god" is the light then the bible is the absence thereof.  So by your reasoning the bible does not contain the light (whatever that is) because "god" is getting in the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lmao...good shit...reminds me of this

 

R: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right...and who is dead.

 

V: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

 

R:You've made your decision then?

 

V: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

 

R:Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

 

V: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

 

R: You're just stalling now.

 

V: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

 

R: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

 

V: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!

 

R: Then make your choice.

 

V: I will, and I choose-- What in the world can that be?

 

[white_raven23]

The Princess Bride.

 

Ah yes good stuff.

[Caretaker]

Gift rejected. I have no use for it.

[sixoverme]

circular logic gets me every time

[mwc]

lmao...good shit...reminds me of this

 

[Princess Bride stuff snipped]

 

That movie gets me everytime (especially the scene you posted).

 

mwc

[scotter]

Daniel,

 

I respect your beliefs. Your path is a path.

 

The thing is your apologetics style. In short, your message is "The Bible says the Bible is the word of God".

 

In addition, you are not talking to someone new to religions and never-was-Christian, you are talking to ex-Christians.

 

You could have known better you are not the first here to talk about the Bible and to introduce Christian dogmas to ex-Christians.....if you do like to attempt it, you have to come up with something really original, at least for the sake of knowledge exchange.

[Xthebuilder]

Psalms 39:3 - My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue

 

Whether you are Christian or not, here is some light that came to me tonight at work while thinking.

 

Do I believe that EVERYTHING in the Bible is the truth?

 

I believe that if God's word did not still exist in a tangible form such as the Bible where men could reference, the earth would cease to exist. Though God's truth is very much ALIVE outside of the Bible, in His children -- this point of reference is important for Christians, and all men alike. I believe that if God's word was not still in the world, we would all be already wiped out, because God would have no reason to allow man to live if without His Word.

 

 

What a wishy washy way to approach anything in life. What is the deal, are you to scared to have your own point of view, or at least be strong enough to say what you really believe!

The Bible is the inspired word of God, if you claim to be a Xian, there is no well kinda maybe sorta attitude. I am asked in here if I believe in that Book...yup I do, because if I deny that book I deny God

 

just my point of view!

[white_raven23]

I am asked in here if I believe in that Book...yup I do, because if I deny that book I deny God

just my point of view!

 

Who says?

 

The only thing that connects that book to a supreme being is....the book itself. The book has made you believe you have to trust the book to trust in a god. You have been tricked into the belief that religion (the book) and the supreme being are inseperable.

 

The book is falsifyable, thus it cannot be the inspired word of a supreme being. The book contradicts itself, again not an error a supreme being would make if it decided something should be published in the first place.

 

The book is of man. Enjoy worshiping god in man's image. Enjoy following the man's path for your life. Enjoy the contradictions, for in the back of your mind, thanks to them you will never really be sure if your place is in the kingdom of heaven. You will work to earn your place in the afterlife, never truly appreciating what there is in this life.

 

Have fun.

[mwc]

What a wishy washy way to approach anything in life. What is the deal, are you to scared to have your own point of view, or at least be strong enough to say what you really believe!

Yes, having the ability to reflect on why one believes something is simply the wrong thing to do because it could lead to, gasp, changing ones mind in light of new evidence or circumstance. Make a choice and stick with it I say. This is why I only eat candy. I made the choice as a child and I'm damn proud to have stuck with it all these years. Having my feet amputated due to diabetes was just a small price to pay to prove the strength of my character and resolve.

 

The Bible is the inspired word of God, if you claim to be a Xian, there is no well kinda maybe sorta attitude. I am asked in here if I believe in that Book...yup I do, because if I deny that book I deny God

 

just my point of view!

Here's another point of view:

Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an ? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

Well, there you go. The Quran is really "gods" book. You chose poorly but at least you're blindly sticking with it.

 

mwc

[Xthebuilder]

Who says?

 

The only thing that connects that book to a supreme being is....the book itself. The book has made you believe you have to trust the book to trust in a god. You have been tricked into the belief that religion (the book) and the supreme being are inseperable.

 

The book is falsifyable, thus it cannot be the inspired word of a supreme being. The book contradicts itself, again not an error a supreme being would make if it decided something should be published in the first place.

 

The book is of man. Enjoy worshiping god in man's image. Enjoy following the man's path for your life. Enjoy the contradictions, for in the back of your mind, thanks to them you will never really be sure if your place is in the kingdom of heaven. You will work to earn your place in the afterlife, never truly appreciating what there is in this life.

 

Have fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

The fact that God gave us the Bible is an evidence and illustration of His love for us. The term "revelation" simply means that God communicated to mankind what He is like and how we can have a right relationship with Him. These are things that we could not have known had not God divinely revealed them to us in the Bible. Although God’s revelation of Himself in the Bible was given progressively over approximately 1500 years, it has always contained everything that man needed to know about God in order to have a right relationship with Him. If the Bible is truly the Word of God, then it is the final authority for all matters of faith, religious practice, and morals.

 

 

 

The question we must ask ourselves is how can we know that the Bible is the Word of God and not just a good book? What is unique about the Bible that sets it apart from all other religious books ever written? Is there any evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word? These are the type of questions that must be looked at if we are to seriously examine the biblical claim that the Bible is the very Word of God, divinely inspired, and totally sufficient for all matters of faith and practice.

 

 

 

There can be no doubt about the fact that the Bible does claim to be the very Word of God. This is clearly seen in verses like 2 Timothy 3:15-17, which say, “. . .from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

 

 

 

In order to answer these questions we must look at both the internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word. The internal evidences are those things internal to the Bible itself that testify of its divine origin. One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words as God moved men in such a way that they recorded His very words.

 

 

 

Another of the internal evidences that indicate the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in the detailed prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, to the future of certain cities, to the future of mankind, and to the coming of one who would be the Messiah, the Savior of not only Israel, but all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those done by Nostradamus, the biblical prophecies are extremely detailed and have never failed to come true. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament alone. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and what family He would come from, but also how He would die and that He would rise again on the third day. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible has.

 

 

 

A third internal evidence of the divine origin of the Bible is seen in its unique authority and power. While this evidence is more subjective than the first two internal evidences, it is no less a very powerful testimony of the divine origin of the Bible. The Bible has a unique authority that is unlike any other book ever written. This authority and power are best seen in the way countless lives have been transformed by reading the Bible. Drug addicts have been cured by it, homosexuals have been set free by it, derelicts and deadbeats have been transformed by it, hardened criminals reformed by it, sinners are rebuked by it, and hate has been turned to love by reading it. The Bible does possess a dynamic and transforming power that is only possible because it is truly God’s Word.

 

 

 

Besides the internal evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word there are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One of those evidences is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events its truthfulness and accuracy is subject to verification like any other historical documentation. Through both archaeological evidences and other written documents, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim that it is the very Word of God.

 

 

 

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of the human authors. As mentioned earlier, God used men from many walks of life to record His Words to us. In studying the lives of these men, there is no good reason to believe that they were not honest and sincere men. Examining their lives and the fact that they were willing to die (often excruciating deaths) for what they believed in, it quickly becomes clear that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed that God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. The transformation of seeing the Risen Christ had a tremendous impact on these men. They went from hiding in fear, to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.

 

 

 

A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, through communist dictators and on to modern day atheists and agonistics, the Bible has withstood and outlasted all of its attackers and is still the most widely published book in the world today.

 

 

 

Throughout time, skeptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archeology has established it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts and teachings have had a positive influence on societies and cultures throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by science, psychology, and political movements and yet remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. It is a book that has transformed countless lives and cultures throughout the last 2000 years. No matter how its opponents try to attack, destroy, or discredit it, the Bible remains just as strong, just a true, and just as relevant after the attacks as it was before. The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it, is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s Word. It should not surprise us that no matter how the Bible is attacked, it always comes out unchanged and unscathed. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away” (Mark 13:31). After looking at the evidence one can say without a doubt that “Yes the Bible is truly God’s Word.”

[Amethyst]

True gifts don't come with strings attached. I'd say Hell is one hell of a string.

[Ouroboros]

I am asked in here if I believe in that Book...yup I do, because if I deny that book I deny God

No, you will deny the Bible God, not Jahweh God if you deny only NT, and you won't deny Allah if you deny the Bible. You won't deny Zeus if you deny the Bible. So nah, you can deny the book and still believe in God, just not Bible version of God.

[Ouroboros]

Throughout time, skeptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archeology has established it as historical.

Like Noahs ark? The rotten leftovers of the fruit A&E ate? Moses' staff? Joshua's sandals? The original stone tables with the ten commandments? The chariots from the Egyptian army of the astonishing number of 600, that drowned, and scared the Israelites (1-2 million people!) to flee. Or the shroud of Jesus that has been proven a hoax? What archeological findings are you talking about here? Have they found Adam and Eves skeletons? What? Tell me!!!

 

You know what, I found a rock outside my house yesterday, and the Holy Spook told me it was the original stone that David shot Goliath with. So I saved it, and I'm going to call Hovind (or whatever his name is), so we can put it on display as the proof that David and Goliath actually did exist for real. Really!

[Amethyst]

Like Noahs ark? The rotten leftovers of the fruit A&E ate? Moses' staff? Joshua's sandals?

 

Well, there was that grilled cheese sandwich with the face of Mary that sold on E-Bay. (Please tell me how we can possibly know how Mary looked, since nobody from our time has ever seen her with their sanity intact, and the only pictures of her are artists' renditions.)

[MQTA]

Like Noahs ark? The rotten leftovers of the fruit A&E ate? Moses' staff? Joshua's sandals? The original stone tables with the ten commandments? The chariots from the Egyptian army of the astonishing number of 600, that drowned, and scared the Israelites (1-2 million people!) to flee. Or the shroud of Jesus that has been proven a hoax? What archeological findings are you talking about here? Have they found Adam and Eves skeletons? What? Tell me!!!

 

You know what, I found a rock outside my house yesterday, and the Holy Spook told me it was the original stone that David shot Goliath with. So I saved it, and I'm going to call Hovind (or whatever his name is), so we can put it on display as the proof that David and Goliath actually did exist for real. Really!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

and then put it up on eBay

[MQTA]

http://www.christianforums.com/t2191871-wh...=9#post19186214

 

My God is the real thing because He is the ONE TRUE LIVING GOD!!! zeus and the other gods are MYTHOLOGY!!

 

There's the answer. Everything else is mythology

[mwc]

The fact that God gave us the Bible is an evidence and illustration of His love for us. The term "revelation" simply means that God communicated to mankind what He is like and how we can have a right relationship with Him.  These are things that we could not have known had not God divinely revealed them to us in the Bible. Although God’s revelation of Himself in the Bible was given progressively over approximately 1500 years, it has always contained everything that man needed to know about God in order to have a right relationship with Him. If the Bible is truly the Word of God, then it is the final authority for all matters of faith, religious practice, and morals.

 

["borrowed" argument snipped]

You didn't cite your source so I thought I'd do it for you. Since I'm not sure where it originated I'll include a couple:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html (I'm guessing you stole it from here)

http://www.touchandchange.com/artman/publi...icle_1139.shtml

 

I guess integrity only applies to the authors of the bible and not the supporters of same.

 

From the gotquestions.org link "If the Bible is the Word of God then to dismiss it is to dismiss God Himself." Sounds a lot like something you said.

I am asked in here if I believe in that Book...yup I do, because if I deny that book I deny God.

 

So you crap all over daniel's reasoning and after all the big talk you're either a fraud or just a cut and paste xian. Unless you can prove authorship of the article in question, you suck.

 

mwc

[Mythra]

1. The bible tells us that it is the word of God. Stupid argument. Every religion in the world has some kind of "inspired" doctrine directly from God.

 

2. Please elaborate on the archaeological evidences for the bible.

 

3. 300 prophecies of Jesus. First, this isn't even close to being true. Second, the Old Testament was used as a template when writing the gospel story. Of course some of it appears to fit.

 

4. Changed lives. No proof here. Every religion can point to changed lives. Including Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, all of em. Since they can't all be true, it's obvious that changed lives has no correlation whatsoever in determining truthfullnes.

 

5. Indestructibility of the bible. Nothing here. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey are every bit as old, and we have them intact. Are you claiming that they too are inspired and protected by God?

 

6. Archeological evidence proving the bible: utter nonsense.

 

And, you don't EVEN want to get into extrabiblical writings as external proofs.

 

So much for that. What else ya got?

 

ps. I think you copied this from somewhere. You'll have more credibility if you quote your sources.

[white_raven23]

And ultimately, your proof that the bible is god's word comes from.....

 

 

 

The bible.

 

 

 

You don't even see it do you? You can't see the circular argument? And you don't see the problem with it.

 

That does it! If I had any doubt before....I don't anymore! Christians should be required to have handicapped license plates or something!

 

Geez....I'm on the ROAD with these people!

[Amethyst]

Geez....I'm on the ROAD with these people!

 

And many of them drive bigger vehicles, too, like SUVs and pickup trucks.

[Ouroboros]

Well, there was that grilled cheese sandwich with the face of Mary that sold on E-Bay.  (Please tell me how we can possibly know how Mary looked, since nobody from our time has ever seen her with their sanity intact, and the only pictures of her are artists' renditions.)

Yeah. It's funny that Virgin Mary on a Sandwich look awfully like a Michelangelo's painting. Should the picture be more like a photo? A jewish woman, just in a rags or something??? She always look like a white european woman from the Renaissance. How is that possible? Would God lie to us, and depict virgin Mary in the image of a painters imagination 1400 years later???

[Mythra]

the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Oh fuck. I just caught this.

 

Thanks, man. You made my night.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mythra]

xthebuilder: since you "wrote" this - how bout we just give you an easy little contradiction for starters to explain for us.

 

Romans 3:10 As it is written, none is righteous. No, not one. No one understands. No one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.

 

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

vs.

 

Luke 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And, he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

 

and

 

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

 

 

So, which is correct? Is the bible wrong about Zechariah, Elizabeth, and Job?

 

Or was Paul wrong when he said that all have sinned and fallen short?