cw89 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God. ~Epicurus I love this statement from Epicurus, and i want to know why would you call him god? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God. ~Epicurus I love this statement from Epicurus, and i want to know why would you call him god? God is able to prevent evil. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 God is able to prevent evil. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return. I personally would rather be a robot than burn in hell for eternity. Either way, we are just playthings for God - hey, have you ever read Mark Twain's "The Mysterious Stranger"? If not, that would be my recommendation to get you out of the strange mindset that views this as a good thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God. ~Epicurus I love this statement from Epicurus, and i want to know why would you call him god? God is able to prevent evil. BUT HE DOESN'T. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. HE WAS UNABLE TO THE FIRST TIME, SO HE HAS TO GIVE IT A SECOND SHOT. NOT VERY OMNIPOTENT.But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all.NO FREE CHOICE WITH HELL OVER YOUR HEAD. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return.SO HE SENDS THEM TO HELL. HE LOVES US TO DEATH! WALKER, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE BURNING FLESH!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God. ~Epicurus I love this statement from Epicurus, and i want to know why would you call him god? God is able to prevent evil. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return. Bzzt....wrong. The "free-will" argument is a poor, poor one when trying to answer the problem of evil when you are arguing for an omni-benevolent, merciful, all-knowing, omnipotent God. Three very basic reasons is that it fails to provide an answer for gratuitous violence, natural disasters and is contrary to the alleged character of your deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGods Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 God is able to prevent evil. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return. Okay, he loves everyone so much that he ordains rape and killing in his name. He damns the whole of mankind for the "sins" of two. He kills the whole world because the creations he made, where "evil" in his eyes. He creates laws to justify slavery. He sends himself to make an atonement for mankind, but does not fix any of the fallacies of the old testament, by saying things like slavery is wrong or telling us the earth was not flat. No, he bitches about the rich, does a few parlor tricks and kills himself, keeping us ignorant even longer of true morals and basic science. If that's what you call love, then you need help. Please read the bible criticality. God is what man has made him, a mad man. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cw89 Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 No i Haven't read "The Mysterious Stranger" it is one of the many things on my ever growing list of things to read. Walker I have to agree with what The Agnosticator with Hell being held over your head how can your have free will? The choice is either worship or burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I personally would rather be a robot than burn in hell for eternity. Either way, we are just playthings for God - hey, have you ever read Mark Twain's "The Mysterious Stranger"? If not, that would be my recommendation to get you out of the strange mindset that views this as a good thing. I don't believe in the "burn in hell" thing. I believe that particular language in scripture is not literal. Scripture is Jewish literature so I believe it should be read with an understanding of Hebraic thought, perspective, literary style/characteristics, etc. "Hell" is separation from God, created for those who don't wish to spend eternity with God. I haven't read Twain's "The Mysterious Stranger". And (of course!) I don't think we're playthings for God! He created us for relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 God is able to prevent evil. BUT HE DOESN'T. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. HE WAS UNABLE TO THE FIRST TIME, SO HE HAS TO GIVE IT A SECOND SHOT. NOT VERY OMNIPOTENT.But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all.NO FREE CHOICE WITH HELL OVER YOUR HEAD. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return.SO HE SENDS THEM TO HELL. HE LOVES US TO DEATH! WALKER, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE BURNING FLESH!!! I like you already, agnosticator! You're right, God doesn't prevent all evil. Only at the end of this age will God fully stop evil. Though God hates evil, He allows it at the present time. God sends no one to hell - He merely allows people to choose separation from Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Bzzt....wrong. The "free-will" argument is a poor, poor one when trying to answer the problem of evil when you are arguing for an omni-benevolent, merciful, all-knowing, omnipotent God. Three very basic reasons is that it fails to provide an answer for gratuitous violence, natural disasters and is contrary to the alleged character of your deity. Omni-benevolent - maybe God's definition of "good" doesn't quite agree with yours Merciful, Omniscient, Omnipotent - yes Can you be more specific about your issue with free choice? Maybe give one example? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Omni-benevolent - maybe God's definition of "good" doesn't quite agree with yours Merciful, Omniscient, Omnipotent - yes Can you be more specific about your issue with free choice? Maybe give one example? Thanks. Let's say hypothetically there was an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity who created everything in this world. An omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity would want to prevent evil from entering this world.Being an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity, this being would know the perfect way to prevent evil from entering this world. If free will is the ultimate goal of this being, are the benefits of a "loving" relationship with this being going to outweigh the costs of the gratuitous violence witnessed in our lives? If free will is the ultimate goal of our existence, how does it explain natural disasters since they are not caused by free will decisions? If original sin is the reason for the suffering in this world, why couldn't a perfect, all powerful being create creatures who would be naturally inclined to not sin? If this violates their free will, than we are back to the circular free will argument and whether or not the benefits of having free will outweigh the costs of having it. If gratuitous violence could be prevented by an all powerful being, why isn't it? Surely, preventing the gratuitous suffering of an innocent (human or animal) would not usurp the ultimate greater good of free will, if this all powerful deity is still adhering to this idea? An omniscient God would by definition know the perfect way to intervene in cases such as this, take rape as a good example, who's free will wins out? On top of this, if you view God as omniscient, and yet we still have free-will than you do not understand the whole concept of free-will because we are specifically created with foreknowledge by God of our future and the choices we will make thereby negating free-will. Moreover, God does not seem to have a problem in interfering with the free will of most Bible characters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I Love Dog Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Though God hates evil, He allows it at the present time. How ridiculous! "He allows it at the present time". If you seriously believe that then you are very deluded! Your god almost single handed invented evil. He performed his very own evil right through the OT on almost every page. He loves evil, he thrives on evil. It's his jolly plan for humans. If there was no evil he'd have no bargaining power. He'd have nothing to "save" people from. http://www.evilbible.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I don't believe in the "burn in hell" thing. <...> Scripture is Jewish literature so I believe it should be read with an understanding of Hebraic thought, perspective, literary style/characteristics, etc. There's no hell in Jewish scripture, Walker. You won't find it in thought, perspective, literary style/characteristics or even etc. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God. ~Epicurus I love this statement from Epicurus, and i want to know why would you call him god? God is able to prevent evil. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return. How can he be "god" in any sense of the word "good" or "powerful" when he allowed 50,000,000,000 human children throughout history to die prematurely, very often of horrible disease and pain? If he was "able" and "willing" or "good" or "loving" at all, then why such waste on his part? Infants and children do not get a chance to exercise "free will" in any way that counts. It's simply a case of depraved indifference if this god has any power at all. NOTE: I just noticed I'm lacking a few zeroes from my original post. The number of children to have died before reaching maturity is 50,000,000,000 not 50,000,000 . That's 50 BILLION children who did not get to exercise free will and choose this god so the love would count for something that matters to him. I corrected the number above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Okay, he loves everyone so much that he ordains rape and killing in his name. He damns the whole of mankind for the "sins" of two. He kills the whole world because the creations he made, where "evil" in his eyes. He creates laws to justify slavery. He sends himself to make an atonement for mankind, but does not fix any of the fallacies of the old testament, by saying things like slavery is wrong or telling us the earth was not flat. No, he bitches about the rich, does a few parlor tricks and kills himself, keeping us ignorant even longer of true morals and basic science. If that's what you call love, then you need help. Please read the bible criticality. God is what man has made him, a mad man. I don’t recall God ordaining rape, but yes there was a time when it was God’s purpose to form a nation in His Name. No, mankind isn’t damned - but it did change things when Adam chose to judge for himself what is good and what is not. You brought up a lot, and though I’d like to eventually discuss all these topics it wouldn’t be feasible to discuss them all at once. Maybe you can choose one to begin with? I’ve found it very helpful to approach scripture as ancient Jewish literature, which is of course what it is. I think we need to understand the way the people who wrote it thought, etc. to understand the concepts they were communicating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 No i Haven't read "The Mysterious Stranger" it is one of the many things on my ever growing list of things to read. Walker I have to agree with what The Agnosticator with Hell being held over your head how can your have free will? The choice is either worship or burn. I don’t see hell as “being held over your head”. People freely choose separation from God - they don’t want to live in God’s Presence. And again, I don’t believe the “burning” thing is literal language. (I also don’t think those who choose to be with God are just going to stand in front of His throne and worship either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Let's say hypothetically there was an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity who created everything in this world. An omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity would want to prevent evil from entering this world.Being an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity, this being would know the perfect way to prevent evil from entering this world. God didn't want evil in this world, but it entered when He gave us the freedom to choose to not follow Him. Giving us free choice was more crucial than preventing evil. If free will is the ultimate goal of this being, are the benefits of a "loving" relationship with this being going to outweigh the costs of the gratuitous violence witnessed in our lives? Yes. If free will is the ultimate goal of our existence, how does it explain natural disasters since they are not caused by free will decisions? I wouldn't say free will is the goal of our existence, but it is necessary *for* the goal. Natural disasters - when humans allowed evil to enter the world it affected nature as well. And I think some free will decisions (perhaps back in history) set in motion a chain of events that eventually caused what we might consider a *natural* disaster. Our knowledge is limited. If original sin is the reason for the suffering in this world, why couldn't a perfect, all powerful being create creatures who would be naturally inclined to not sin? If this violates their free will, than we are back to the circular free will argument and whether or not the benefits of having free will outweigh the costs of having it. If gratuitous violence could be prevented by an all powerful being, why isn't it? Surely, preventing the gratuitous suffering of an innocent (human or animal) would not usurp the ultimate greater good of free will, if this all powerful deity is still adhering to this idea? An omniscient God would by definition know the perfect way to intervene in cases such as this, take rape as a good example, who's free will wins out? If we're naturally inclined to not sin then we're kind of robotic, right? There are far worse things than a life free from any kind of problem or pain (emotional, psychological, physical). Few like the fact that the innocent suffer, but what have you done to allievate suffering in the world? And what pain have you inflicted on others? If you're human you've added to the pain of the world. Are you saying that God shouldn't have let you make the decisions you've made? In the case of a specific evil such as rape - sometimes God intervenes and sometimes He doesn't. Sometimes He sends someone walking by who could intervene (if he chooses to). On top of this, if you view God as omniscient, and yet we still have free-will than you do not understand the whole concept of free-will because we are specifically created with foreknowledge by God of our future and the choices we will make thereby negating free-will. Moreover, God does not seem to have a problem in interfering with the free will of most Bible characters. Why does foreknowledge take away free will? Can't God know what you will freely choose? Every Bible character had free choice, though I will agree that sometimes God is persistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I don't believe in the "burn in hell" thing. <...> Scripture is Jewish literature so I believe it should be read with an understanding of Hebraic thought, perspective, literary style/characteristics, etc. There's no hell in Jewish scripture, Walker. You won't find it in thought, perspective, literary style/characteristics or even etc. Sorry. I'm not sure all that you're thinking here but I consider the whole Bible - scripture (first and second testament) to be literature written very predominantly by Hebrews/Jews. The second testament, though written in Greek, was written predominantly by Jewish authors who thought and perceived the world as Jews, etc. Though Jewish people today don't consider the second testament "scripture" it was still written mostly by Jewish people. The concept of the afterlife being with God or separation from God is in both testaments, but it is much more developed in the second testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGods Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I don’t recall God ordaining rape, but yes there was a time when it was God’s purpose to form a nation in His Name. No, mankind isn’t damned - but it did change things when Adam chose to judge for himself what is good and what is not. You brought up a lot, and though I’d like to eventually discuss all these topics it wouldn’t be feasible to discuss them all at once. Maybe you can choose one to begin with? I’ve found it very helpful to approach scripture as ancient Jewish literature, which is of course what it is. I think we need to understand the way the people who wrote it thought, etc. to understand the concepts they were communicating. Okay... Exodus 21:7-11 Sex slaves... Anyone?... Deuteronomy 20:10-14 God tells them to go to the city and fight, but offer peace first. If they accept, make slaves of them. If they do not accept, kill all the men and boys and take the women and live stock as your own. I'm not sure about the cows, but I'm sure the women would not have like to be forced to sleep with their captors. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (Again) God says when they capture women take them as your own, but do let them morn first. After they are happy with the loved-ones deaths, then you can marry and rape them. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 A woman is raped, and she and her rapist are to be stoned. Him for the rape and her because she did not call out. Let's say the rapist held a knife to her throat as he raped her. If she cries out, she is dead. If she does not cry out she is dead. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - <sarcasm>This one is the nicest in the bible</sarcasm> I admit it's not god ordained, but lets look at it. A woman gets raped. Her rapist pays fifty pieces of silver to her father. She then has to marry him and be raped for free until she dies or he does. I'll stop here... Please study your bible more, we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 God didn't want evil in this world, but it entered when He gave us the freedom to choose to not follow Him. Giving us free choice was more crucial than preventing evil. So an omniscient, omnipotent God didn't want evil to enter this world, yet it did anyway? Seems you are ignoring the definitions of your God... Down a few pages, you state that free will isn't the ultimate goal, it seems you don't really no what you are arguing for or against. Yes. Thank you for that that articulate answer. I wouldn't say free will is the goal of our existence, but it is necessary *for* the goal. Natural disasters - when humans allowed evil to enter the world it affected nature as well. And I think some free will decisions (perhaps back in history) set in motion a chain of events that eventually caused what we might consider a *natural* disaster. Our knowledge is limited. What natural disasters exactly are you referencing? So natural disasters are in fact brought on by original sin, which was a free will decision? So ultimately, natural disasters have their basis in free will? At the end of the day I don't believe evil is a "thing". So we have to wonder if an earthquake is "evil" or "caused by sin, brought on by a free will decision" or is it actually just what it is, a natural disaster? If it is evil, could it have been prevented by a loving God? If it could have been, why wasn't it? If it wasn't prevented, was it deserved? If it was deserved, who decided who deserved it? If it can be decided it was deserved, can we interpret natural disasters and decide it was deserved for ourselves? If we determine it was deserved, should we give aid to those who deserved it? If we're naturally inclined to not sin then we're kind of robotic, right? There are far worse things than a life free from any kind of problem or pain (emotional, psychological, physical). Few like the fact that the innocent suffer, but what have you done to allievate suffering in the world? And what pain have you inflicted on others? If you're human you've added to the pain of the world. Are you saying that God shouldn't have let you make the decisions you've made? Of course I have, and I am sure you have as well. I am not arguing that we do not HAVE free will. I am arguing that the existence of your God does not bode well with us having free will and the amount of evil and violence seen in this world while trying to couple it with the idea of a loving God. Sin does not sufficiently explain these issues. I suggest you check out "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman it's a pretty good book and delves into how each of the Bible's writers (anonymous and otherwise) deal with the level of violence surrounding them and how they each posit attempt to reconcile their respective views of God with it. In the case of a specific evil such as rape - sometimes God intervenes and sometimes He doesn't. Sometimes He sends someone walking by who could intervene (if he chooses to). You're ignoring the question with a pat answer. Who's free will wins out here? God choses when he intervenes or not? So if someone is raped it is God's will? Why does foreknowledge take away free will? Can't God know what you will freely choose? Every Bible character had free choice, though I will agree that sometimes God is persistent. Omniscience by definition takes away free will because you are created with the foreknowledge of what your every decision will be. If God knows, than man is compelled to act as God knows, or God's knowledge is at fault. In order for you to have free will you must have a true choice. These two choices must be avoidable. Before these choices are made, there must be a certain amount of uncertainty. You cannot know the future of your actions because that would negate the free will of your choice. God is persistent? I thought free will was important? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God. ~Epicurus I love this statement from Epicurus, and i want to know why would you call him god? God is able to prevent evil. God “is willing” to prevent evil - ultimately. But God often allows day-to-day evil for the sake of Free Choice, His Gift to all. Why do I call Him God? Well, one reason is that He loves every person so much that He will not force them to love Him in return. Question one. What is the biblical definition of free will? Question two. If you can't answer of above, what is your definition of free will. If say free will, is just say the ability to choose, and not live by solely determinism, heavenly or otherwise. Then your argument is moot, because you still have free will if there is limit selection criteria. Let me put it too you this way. If your only selecting between different good things, do you still have free will? I would say yes. Where else in our supposedly christian universe do we think a world is going to be like that. Heaven for one. Makes you think, whats the point. It basically comes down to just wanting to screw with us. And if your going to argue that evil is needed for free will, then how do we have free will in heaven. And if you want to take the other route of saying we will be aware of evil in heaven and bad stuff, then why is earth still needed. What is different between evil as say Satan was aware of it, before he became Satan, and evil afterword after Satan is in hell, it still exists. Of course if you say we don't have free will in heaven, the heaven part of this argument is moot, but the free will question still exists. Is it possible to have free will but only be able to choose good things, if it is, then evil isn't needed. Just for the sake of it and we could talk about this in another thread, if there is no free will in heaven, whats the point, there isn't any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 God sends no one to hell - He merely allows people to choose separation from Him. What is the point in resurrecting your own child after he dies, only to send him to outer darkness forever? Loving vindictiveness? That's an oxymoron. Rubbing his face in his sin? My father used to rub my dog's nose in her own poop when she pooped in the house. I don't think she learned anything from the shitty experience, except to fear my father. This God truly hates the sinner-not just the sin. Otherwise, He would just let his child lie in his grave in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 How can he be "god" in any sense of the word "good" or "powerful" when he allowed 50,000,000 human children throughout history to die prematurely, very often of horrible disease and pain? If he was "able" and "willing" or "good" or "loving" at all, then why such waste on his part? Infants and children do not get a chance to exercise "free will" in any way that counts. It's simply a case of depraved indifference if this god has any power at all. Waste? There is more than this life. You have an earthly perspective. I’m not saying God doesn’t care about this life - but I am saying He has a different perspective. Eternity is forever. We humans can fight much disease - have we been indifferent? I believe when everyone dies (including infants) they meet God and their hearts respond - they either love Him or they prefer to be separated from Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I Love Dog Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Waste? There is more than this life. You have an earthly perspective. I’m not saying God doesn’t care about this life - but I am saying He has a different perspective. Eternity is forever. We humans can fight much disease - have we been indifferent? I believe when everyone dies (including infants) they meet God and their hearts respond - they either love Him or they prefer to be separated from Him. Of course people have an earthly perspective, if you're alive then it's natural to have that perspective. I am saying that if your god exists then he doesn't really give a shit about anyone on this planet. Is everyone who has suffered in life through no fault of their own allowed to punish god when they meet him? There would be billions and billions of people who would hate your god if they thought that he could have prevented their suffering. Your belief is yours, of course, but don't try and defend your god with lame words, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Waste? There is more than this life. You have an earthly perspective. I’m not saying God doesn’t care about this life - but I am saying He has a different perspective. Eternity is forever. We humans can fight much disease - have we been indifferent? I believe when everyone dies (including infants) they meet God and their hearts respond - they either love Him or they prefer to be separated from Him. This "god" is so powerful and amazing but it only really works after things die. And once dead that's when all our best decisions will be made about this "god." This is all good stuff. I started a similar religion for the bacteria in my own body. I'm fairly indifferent to them now but, once they die, they choose to love me or choose to be separated from me forever. It makes me sad when they choose not to love me because I really want to have a personal relationship with each and every bacteria that has ever existed within myself. I consider them to be worthy of this because I'm obviously deficient in some way just like the "god" you believe thinks in this similar way as well. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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