Why Call Him God?

[Ouroboros]

If you make a large investment after you’re advised not to, and you lose everything - are you being “punished”? Or are you suffering the consequences of your decision?

Except that's not what happened.

 

This isn't "fire is hot...you'll get burned" so they touched fire and got burned. This is "fire is hot...you'll get burned" so they touched fire and got a spanking.

 

They were punished.

 

mwc

And we are punished too, not for what we do, but because of what Adam and Eve did. And then we're punished for what we do not do, which is to become asskissers to Jesus.

[Ouroboros]

Exactly. Considering that based on all estimates there are as many people alive today that have ever lived. So the more time that passes the more people there are to fail the system rather than pass the system. Ending it sooner is the better solution. Even with 2 billion xians today (and decreasing) that would mean 4-5 billion non-xians and total failures. Ending the game centuries ago would have actually saved billions of souls from condemnation even if it would have meant the smaller percentage would have never had the opportunity to pass on to "salvation." Billions more will "lose" so a smaller percentage can "win." And combined with the historical numbers the "winners" are just a minor blip anyhow. It's a silly game.

And talking about making bad investment decision. God is the crappiest investor. The return of investment is extremely low. Investing in the falling house market is giving better return than God's "grand plan." I don't think Christians really think about that. I know I didn't. It just doesn't make sense that God created this kind of world where 99.999% of all people born will go to Hell, only because God didn't want to show them his existence, but only that they had to believe by word-of-mouth. It's like a crazy experiment done by a mad scientist. We are the rats. He just wants to see what will happen. Heaven, Hell, afterlife, Jesus, all props in a large scale sociological experiment.

[walker]

Getting someone to embrace the love of God by inflicting suffering on them … interesting thought, right? Doubt that worked. And what did it say about the character and quality of those inflicting the suffering?

It says they are a lot like this god you present to us. ...

What is the character and quality of a good Olympic coach?

 

To be honest, there are worse things than death. But that has to be carefully said because someone will think I’m for killing infants who will most likely have a life of suffering, and I’m not. And - many people choose to suffer. Training for the Olympics is painful. Losing weight (being hungry) is painful. People choose to suffer all the time for some goal that they value. People even will say they’re glad they went through some painful experience because it taught them something or made them stronger. So, would you agree that some suffering is valuable and some is even chosen?

The people who choose suffering know that their voluntary suffering has a long-term purpose whose benefits make the self discipline and endurance worth the time, energy and temporary pain. It's the purposeless nature of the young, innocents who suffer that is at the root of the whole question. And you are side-stepping it. Why walker? What makes all that suffering unto death worth it to this god of your? And what does that say about his character?

O-K, so we have agreed that suffering is sometimes chosen and can bring about a good goal. However - I’m sure if an Olympic athlete could train without pain he would choose to. And if people could lose weight without pain (hunger) they would choose to (diet product companies certainly know this). No one wants to suffer at all, but they will for a goal they value. A goal can bring purpose to suffering.

 

Would you also agree that suffering can motivate us to better our world? A child with healthy parents can easily think drinking isn’t a problem. A child who grows up with a dad who has a drinking problem sees first-hand the harm this problem can do. As an adult he might be motivated to help fight alcoholism, etc. while the other child does nothing. So, can we agree that suffering can motivate people to help others and better the world?

 

You seem very concerned about the “young innocents” who suffer and die. So what have you done to help? Or do you sit back and blame a god whom you think doesn’t exist? Since you believe there is no god, then it’s up to you, right? What have you done?

 

(Actually, maybe what God did about it was create you.)

 

But, how do you get freely-given, deep, meaningful love without giving the ability to not love?

That is your problem. God does not exist. Therefore this question is irrelevant to me.

It can be a philosophical question. Do you have an answer?

 

Does the Bible say infants who die shortly after being born go to hell? Does the Bible say these infants go to heaven? Not that I know of. But the Bible does reveal a Loving, Just God who gives everyone choice. It’s about relationship with God - seeing who He is, loving Him, and desiring to be with Him (or not loving Him and desiring to be separate from Him). When we meet God after we die we will see clearly who He is - we won’t need theological attempts to reveal Him to us and we won’t need earthly human developmental ability (not that those things guarantee an outcome either way anyway). Our spirit will meet His, and it will respond one way or the other. And - people who thought they rejected Him while on earth might embrace Him because they find they only rejected a false image of Him. Also, people who thought they loved Him on earth might find they embraced a false idea of Him - and they might in the end love their false image more than His Reality. After death there will be nothing in the way of clear revelation - all will be open, exposed … “naked“ (Gen. 3).

My question was, on what do you base this belief that newborns, infants, toddlers and preadolescents get to choose a relationship with god in the afterlife? You produced no bible verses that support your position, so you can't say you base it on the bible. You then extrapolate from some ambiguous declaration of a loving, just god. However, it is that love and justice that is in question because reality just doesn't jive with such an assessment.

 

And then, you proceed to declare what god will do and how things will be with nothing but your imagination and your emotionalism to back you up. Where do you get this from?

 

The magical mystery tour you reference where by seeing god in the afterlife we will somehow know everything we need to know to make an informed choice really only begs the question. Why wasn't such knowledge given in the first place? Why put precious human lives through such turmoil in life when their cognitive, emotional and rational abilities will be instantly enhanced (upon death)?

 

And really, you're just making it all up anyway. You have given scant reason to believe anything you say is true. I could probably write down all the lovey dovie, gushy, emtional, positive words I can think of on a piece of paper, toss them into a hat and string them randomly together with an occasional verb and come up with just as valid a theological position as the one you present.

 

If this cloudy theological dream world makes you happy, then that is great for you. This calloused indifference to and minimization of the overpowering magnitude of empty human suffering and death throughout time is what I find disturbing. But such superficiality in people is a coping mechanism. We want to maintain that god is out there, loving us , putting the scales of justice in balance and promising us that this life is not empty and meaningless. In order to maintain such a position, one must either deny suffering truly exists or minimize the significance of the suffering that people have experienced. I find those choices quite disappointing, but I understand why people go that route.

There are many verses that support a Loving God, a Just God, a God who gives everyone free choice, and that we will see clearly after we die. Why would citing these verses (verses you probably already know) be meaningful to you? But if you want some verses I can give them.

 

Why wasn’t such knowledge given in the first place? It was.

 

Suffering doesn’t make me happy. Why would anyone imagine a Good God behind all this? Atheism doesn’t seem to make you happy. I bet the athlete in training isn’t happy either - but he has a purpose.

[Deva]

Suffering doesn’t make me happy. Why would anyone imagine a Good God behind all this? Atheism doesn’t seem to make you happy. I bet the athlete in training isn’t happy either - but he has a purpose.

 

Where did suffering come from? Where did evil come from?

 

If God is not behind it, who is? Don't say Satan, because you are setting him up as a co-creator with God and compromising the sovereignty of God.

 

Is God all-powerful or is he not? Does he decide to set aside some of his power so that evil can flourish? If so, how is he good?

 

Don't these questions bother you?

 

Happiness has nothing to do with this question. Many Christians are unhappy as well.

[Ouroboros]

Suffering doesn’t make me happy. Why would anyone imagine a Good God behind all this? Atheism doesn’t seem to make you happy. I bet the athlete in training isn’t happy either - but he has a purpose.

 

Where did suffering come from? Where did evil come from?

 

If God is not behind it, who is? Don't say Satan, because you are setting him up as a co-creator with God and compromising the sovereignty of God.

 

Is God all-powerful or is he not? Does he decide to set aside some of his power so that evil can flourish? If so, how is he good?

 

Don't these questions bother you?

Well said, Deva.

 

If everything that comes into existence must have a cause, and the First Cause to all things is God, it logically follows that God is the First Cause of all evil and suffering. It's an inescapable conclusion.

 

 

Happiness has nothing to do with this question. Many Christians are unhappy as well.

And many Christians leave Christianity just because they're unhappy and the questions bothering them.

[oddbird1963]

What is the character and quality of a good Olympic coach?

 

A good Olympic coach doesn't have tens of billions of dead baby, infant, toddler and pre-adolescent bodies stacked to the stratosphere whose deaths he could have prevented. In fact, most "good" Olympic coaches probably aren't responsible for the early deaths of any children.

 

Your analogy is inappropriate because we are talking about humans whose early deaths came long before they could choose to undergo this god's tutelage.

 

. . .

 

You seem very concerned about the “young innocents” who suffer and die. So what have you done to help? Or do you sit back and blame a god whom you think doesn’t exist? Since you believe there is no god, then it’s up to you, right? What have you done?

 

(Actually, maybe what God did about it was create you.)

Your attempts to put the hot potato in my lap are misguided, walker. You sound like a stock, run of the mill evangelical preacher in this regard. This god of yours, if he exists, was guilty of a holocaust exponentially greater in magnitude than the black plague long before I came along to tread this pale blue dot. Anything I do to alleviate suffering and become god's do-gooding proxy is still irrelevant. Billions of these kids died generations before anybody knew anything about preventing disease or how to treat severe injuries, or how to find alternative sources of food and water during drought conditions. He could have done something but didn't. Reality just doesn't cohere with the theological dust cloud you've been raising.

 

But, how do you get freely-given, deep, meaningful love without giving the ability to not love?

That is your problem. God does not exist. Therefore this question is irrelevant to me.

It can be a philosophical question. Do you have an answer?

I don't know of any human who is able to give the ability to love or the ability to not love. We grow up in environments that encourage that ability/non-ability or we choose through years of personal commitment to develop the quality of freely given, deep meaningful love.

 

That's why I consider your question irrelevant. Humans can try to control one another and force obedience, or sex or praise from others. But that is manipulation at best and abuse at its worst. Healthy, life affirming love begins with the acceptance the fact that the human heart is beyond our control.

 

All that being said, the question of the death of innocents over the expanse of human history has nothing to do with the ability to love or not love god. The question you raise about love is a side step of the questions that have been presented to you.

 

There are many verses that support a Loving God, a Just God, a God who gives everyone free choice, and that we will see clearly after we die. Why would citing these verses (verses you probably already know) be meaningful to you? But if you want some verses I can give them.

 

Why wasn’t such knowledge given in the first place? It was.

 

Suffering doesn’t make me happy. Why would anyone imagine a Good God behind all this? Atheism doesn’t seem to make you happy. I bet the athlete in training isn’t happy either - but he has a purpose.

You seem to believe that young children who die before reaching maturity with underdeveloped cognitive and analytical skills will suddenly and explosively grow in their knowledge and ability to reason morally. Furthermore, you seem to think that upon death infants and toddlers will suddenly gain the ability to comprehend the magnitude , gravity and consequences of a decision to reject or accept the god you describe.

 

You have provided no explanation as to why you think this is true. And when you say such knowledge was given , you seem to be saying that babies, toddlers and pre-adolescents already possess the ability to fully comprehend their own depravity and understand the consequences of their failing to choose to "fall in love" with this god of yours.

 

You really need to explain how this could be so if anything you say you believe is to be taken seriously.

 

I'm glad that suffering doesn't make you happy. I would be quite worried if it did. Why do you say that though? I never suggested it makes you happy. I think you turn a blind eye to the magnitude of human suffering over the span of human history. But who said it made you happy? I have stated why people imagine a good god to explain human suffering (if that is what you mean by "behind all this"). I stated that people posit a good god as ". . . a coping mechanism. We want to maintain that god is out there, loving us , putting the scales of justice in balance and promising us that this life is not empty and meaningless. "

 

Correction: THEISM didn't make me happy. Christianity didn't make me happy. However, I wasn't looking for happy. I was looking for the truth. And it wasn't to be found in Jesus, the Bible or Christianity. Truth was not to be found in religion or in a "relationship."

 

I don't look for anything out of atheism. I look for the truth. Atheism is just a description, not a worldview or philosophy of life. And you haven't provided any reason to believe the things you are saying are true. So far you have shown an inability or unwillingness to deal with and attempt to provide explanations for the immensity of the suffering and death experienced on this planet throughout human history by those too young to freely choose this god of yours.

[Antlerman]

Getting someone to embrace the love of God by inflicting suffering on them … interesting thought, right? Doubt that worked. And what did it say about the character and quality of those inflicting the suffering?

It says they are a lot like this god you present to us. ...

What is the character and quality of a good Olympic coach?

 

To be honest, there are worse things than death. But that has to be carefully said because someone will think I’m for killing infants who will most likely have a life of suffering, and I’m not. And - many people choose to suffer. Training for the Olympics is painful. Losing weight (being hungry) is painful. People choose to suffer all the time for some goal that they value. People even will say they’re glad they went through some painful experience because it taught them something or made them stronger. So, would you agree that some suffering is valuable and some is even chosen?

The people who choose suffering know that their voluntary suffering has a long-term purpose whose benefits make the self discipline and endurance worth the time, energy and temporary pain. It's the purposeless nature of the young, innocents who suffer that is at the root of the whole question. And you are side-stepping it. Why walker? What makes all that suffering unto death worth it to this god of your? And what does that say about his character?

 

O-K, so we have agreed that suffering is sometimes chosen and can bring about a good goal. However - I’m sure if an Olympic athlete could train without pain he would choose to. And if people could lose weight without pain (hunger) they would choose to (diet product companies certainly know this). No one wants to suffer at all, but they will for a goal they value. A goal can bring purpose to suffering.

 

Would you also agree that suffering can motivate us to better our world? A child with healthy parents can easily think drinking isn’t a problem. A child who grows up with a dad who has a drinking problem sees first-hand the harm this problem can do. As an adult he might be motivated to help fight alcoholism, etc. while the other child does nothing. So, can we agree that suffering can motivate people to help others and better the world?

I've wanted to get to a response to MWC and Oddbird on my thoughts about the Genesis story, but haven't had the time to present my thoughts properly. This here however is simpler so I will make a couple points.

 

I hear a lot of conflation of the word suffering, with things like physical pain of an athlete, etc. I do not consider that suffering in the sense of suffering in the world being a moral issue. Physical pain is not a moral issue. I think it's important to recognize that genuine Human suffering comes from pretty much two sources: Oppression and Repression. Oppression is what others inflict upon you that denies freedom; Repression is what we do to ourselves that denies freedom. The source of both of these is humans. Death and and bodily pain are natural and are thus not moral issues. Oppression and repression are behavioral and part of our individual and social psychologies. They therefore are moral issues.

 

The source of oppression and repression are human behavioral responses to the existential state of being. They are not from some external spiritual forces in the universe. They are our dysfunctional responses emanating from within ourselves to the world we find ourselves having to try to figure our and deal with, both from an individual and social level. Oppression results when an individual or group of individual seek to amass power to themselves in the pursuit of their own sense of immortality, a substitute being God, so to speak. To oppress others offers them the illusion of control, the illusion of strength, in response to their own denial of death for themselves. We substitute sacrifice others rather than ourselves through aggressions against others; war, economic oppressions; social inequalities, etc.

 

To repress ourselves, is to deny ourselves to ourselves in order to avoid facing that ultimate existential crises - the death of who we imagine we are, who we see ourselves as, likewise unwilling to face that death. We deny our vulnerability, our nothingness to ourselves, and like those that oppress others to bolster an illusion of control, we repress ourselves to bolster and illusion of control. We substitute sacrifice our own liberty in an act of self-enslavement, repressing our inner person that seeks to be empowered, and released into our own becoming. We don't like what we see, it terrifies us, we deny it to ourselves into the shadows.

 

God, nor some Devil has anything to do with our own dysfunctional behaviors. Oppression and repression are our own sickness, so to speak that we as human beings strive to overcome. It comes from within us to do so, as we release everything we cling to to deny the World to ourselves, which can only come through the end of that substitute sacrifice.

 

OK, back to doing work.....

 

BTW, Walker, I'm looking forward to where you can go with what I'm presenting you with here....

[centauri]

There are many verses that support a Loving God, a Just God, a God who gives everyone free choice, and that we will see clearly after we die.

Ok, I'd like you to cite the verses that say the Christian God gives free choice in regard to salvation.

The word "free" means without charge, so please keep that in mind before you answer.

There is also another problem with your sweeping definition of God because there are plenty of verses that say God determines (i.e. predestines) some choices for people and manipulates various humans to have them to behave in a certain way.

[Phanta]

There are many verses that support a Loving God, a Just God, a God who gives everyone free choice, and that we will see clearly after we die.

Ok, I'd like you to cite the verses that say the Christian God gives free choice in regard to salvation.

The word "free" means without charge, so please keep that in mind before you answer.

There is also another problem with your sweeping definition of God because there are plenty of verses that say God determines (i.e. predestines) some choices for people and manipulates various humans to have them to behave in a certain way.

 

Maybe it's just the ability to choose that is the free gift.

[searchinwithnoagenda]

"And again, I don’t believe the “burning” thing is literal language."

 

But other xtians DO believe the burning is literal. This seems to represent confusion to the extent there is no clear interpretation. And I was always told god is not a god of confusion. Imo, there is similar confusion re the issue of once saved always saved vs. the belief by some xtian sects that one can lose their salvation. Also, with so many different sects of xtianity; isn't that a glaring indication of confusion in that they all believe various issues differently to one degree or another?