TheUnknown Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Why do Christians always feel this need and zeal to proselytize to everyone, especially in light of the following verses. To me personally, it seems to be an exercise in futility 1) Romans ch 1 states that we are instinctively supposed know about God, and that we are without excuse, so why evangelize in the first place Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 2) Everything has already been predestined long before it even began. It's not as if anything can be changed anyway Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. -------------------- Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, ------------------------------------ Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ---------------------------------------- Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knetti Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 If you find out, let me know. I still don't understand. Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Is this the Christian explanation for other religions? I didn't know that was in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Not all Christians "feel this need and zeal to proselytize to everyone." The traditions that have captured the culture sufficiently and produce enough children among its congregants don't typically feel a need to focus on evangelism. The evangelical denominations focus on the "Great Commission" passage at the end of Matthew and to some degree the decree from Jesus that believers are to "be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8)." A lot of evangelicals aren't strict Calvinists when it comes to issues of predestination. They still see individuals as having a choice in the matter of accepting the gospel. Strict Calvinists will say they evangelize because it is commanded. They try to harmonize passages about predestination and election with commands to proselytize, but ultimately they say it is their lot in life to obey. So , no matter the questions raised of the doctrines of election and predestination, they are still commanded to preach the gospel and they will do so out of obedience. It's all a matter of which scriptures to cherry pick and which ones to de-emphasize. All the denominations do it. The apologists who frequent this site deny it vociferously. But that's what it boils down to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I often wonder if it has a hidden purpose: to solidify belief in the mind of the Evangelizer through public declaration. Actions of commitment, especially public ones, to anything, including beliefs, make it harder to release that belief. We don't want to lose face, to confront our own foolishness. That makes the commitment harder to undo. (See Leon Festinger's #2 factor that contributes to people holding a belief more strongly post-prophecy failure). Altar calls are also part of this. All public vows and commitments. All thing that make the one doing the action more bound to their belief. Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Why do Christians always feel this need and zeal to proselytize to everyone, especially in light of the following verses. To me personally, it seems to be an exercise in futility 1) Romans ch 1 states that we are instinctively supposed know about God, and that we are without excuse, so why evangelize in the first place Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 2) Everything has already been predestined long before it even began. It's not as if anything can be changed anyway Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. -------------------- Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, ------------------------------------ Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ---------------------------------------- Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I really don't see your point. When Paul and the gospels speak about predestination they are clearly using it for the purpose of either making the believers feel special, and assuring people that they shouldn't feel so bad when they fail to convert people, those who god has called will hear his voice, those who aren't won't. As far as screwy concepts in the Bible go, the concept that he might require someone to go out and preach the gospel to people whom he already predestinated for "salvation" isn't really all that screwy, after all, he would have known before hand that you were going to go out and preached the gospel now wouldn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Why do Christians always feel this need and zeal to proselytize to everyone, especially in light of the following verses. <snipped for brevity> Believers that exhibit particularly aggressive proselytizing will usually downplay predestination because, as you observed, it eliminates the point of proselytizing. The need to preach is mainly a primal imperative to expand and dominate. A fellow once compared it to male dogs that mark their territory by constant urination and then employ bellicose barking to make sure the "conquered" territory is secure from competition. I've also seen it compared to a virus. Christianity is a meme--a mind virus that lives in the minds of people and is spread through proselytization and other means. Christianity is a meme about God, but it has no other connection to God. The Christianity Meme has been shaped purely by natural selection--the law of survival of the fittest--as it has played out in human minds. It is a sophisticated product of cultural evolution. Being a "true Christian" infected by the Christianity Meme will subject you to aid its survival through its adaptations that allow it to exert control over human behavior. As a consequence, the more Christian you are the more you are prone to certain kinds of immoral behavior. The Christianity Meme is not bound by the moral principles it carries. http://www.christianitymeme.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Don't forget that almost every theological point you can make, there are scriptures which can be pointed to which are contrary to the theological point you make. That's why there are so many denominations and why different denominations view the need for evangelism differently. I once asked someone who believed in predestination and election, why their church supported missionaries since everything had been decided. The answer was because Jesus told us to in the Great Commission. Logic didn't matter. Sometimes inconsistent scriptures lead Christians to inconsistent behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 10, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted January 10, 2011 The answer was because Jesus told us to in the Great Commission. Logic didn't matter. Exactly. We shouldn't waste time looking for logic or consistency in religion, particularly this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillAChristian Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 You are absolutely right that the Bible says that God has predestined us in terms of what happens in our lives. There are three reasons to evangelise, despite this fact: 1. It is still a command of Jesus in the Great Commission to do so. 2. If we share Jesus with someone, that has also been predestined by God. The person was always destined to come to God and they were destined to come through our evangelism. 3. BIGGEST REASON: Why not? We believe that when we die, we will join the Lord eternally and all our wordly possesions will go. Why not use the time that we have on this earth to share Jesus with people, rather than just engaging in leisure or making money? I hope that explains it:) Valid question, though:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 God pre-destined you to evangelise with the certain person. God pre-destined the certain person to reject thye gospel and go to hell. God also pre-destined people with the concept of pre-destination that no need to evangelise. God also pre-destined you to ask such a question. God also pre-destined the web-founder to establish this forum for you to ask this question,,,, What the fuck,,,, if everything is pre-destined by god, then huh,,,, nothing much to say anyway,,,,,,, hell and heaven goers are fixed,,, who cares 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUnknown Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 You are absolutely right that the Bible says that God has predestined us in terms of what happens in our lives. There are three reasons to evangelise, despite this fact: 1. It is still a command of Jesus in the Great Commission to do so. 2. If we share Jesus with someone, that has also been predestined by God. The person was always destined to come to God and they were destined to come through our evangelism. 3. BIGGEST REASON: Why not? We believe that when we die, we will join the Lord eternally and all our wordly possesions will go. Why not use the time that we have on this earth to share Jesus with people, rather than just engaging in leisure or making money? I hope that explains it:) Valid question, though:) The thing I have against this is, that it's deliberately misleading and results in people spreading a dishonest message, albeit it possibly with good intentions. It's the height of dishonesty to stand in front of a pulpit and claim that God loves everyone, when in fact everything is predestined, who is to say that a person could think that God loves them, only to find out later that nothing could be further from the truth....... Don't forget that almost every theological point you can make, there are scriptures which can be pointed to which are contrary to the theological point you make. That's why there are so many denominations and why different denominations view the need for evangelism differently. I once asked someone who believed in predestination and election, why their church supported missionaries since everything had been decided. The answer was because Jesus told us to in the Great Commission. Logic didn't matter. Sometimes inconsistent scriptures lead Christians to inconsistent behavior. God pre-destined you to evangelise with the certain person. God pre-destined the certain person to reject thy gospel and go to hell. God also pre-destined people with the concept of pre-destination that no need to evangelise. God also pre-destined you to ask such a question. God also pre-destined the web-founder to establish this forum for you to ask this question,,,, What the fuck,,,, if everything is pre-destined by god, then huh,,,, nothing much to say anyway,,,,,,, hell and heaven goers are fixed,,, who cares Thanks, this was the point I was trying to make with the OP. Ignorance is bliss. It's depressing (to say the least), that Christianity is a belief system that basically implies that it would be far better if most people had never seen the light of day. It's depressing to think that there may be a deity that hates us so much 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillAChristian Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 "It's the height of dishonesty to stand in front of a pulpit and claim that God loves everyone, when in fact everything is predestined, who is to say that a person could think that God loves them, only to find out later that nothing could be further from the truth......." People need to hear that God loves them, then they can turn to Jesus and be saved. It doesn't matter in that way that it was pre-destined. You can't have a situation where a person accepts Jesus and yet is not saved because they haven't been chosen by God. So you see it all works out. The reason why I argue for predestination is twofold: 1. An omnipotent God must know everything, including past, present and future. Therefore, the future must be already worked out. 2. There are many references in the Bible to support pre-destination. However, practically speaking, when someone tells me about Jesus, I have a choice: to accept Jesus or not? It doesn't matter in making my decision, whether it was predestined or not. I'm simply responsible before God for the decision I make. That is the fallacy that people fall into when people say "oh, but if God has chosen me, then I would be accepting Jesus right now but I'm not, therefore he hasn't". Well, you could choose to accept Jesus, couldn't you? It's up to you to choose:) "It's depressing (to say the least), that Christianity is a belief system that basically implies that it would be far better if most people had never seen the light of day. It's depressing to think that there may be a deity that hates us so much " God is God. I think if I have a look at myself, then I definitely see that I do not deserve to be saved. It would not be wrong of God to condemn me to Hell. That is the difference between the world view and the view of the Bible. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? The only way that we can think we have a right to be with God as we are is if we adopt a view that our desires and our happiness are more important than other peoples'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 God is God. I think if I have a look at myself, then I definitely see that I do not deserve to be saved. It would not be wrong of God to condemn me to Hell. You're kidding Me, right? You actually believe that you deserve eternal torture, and that it's within the rights of a god to inflict such a thing upon you? That is hideously wrong from both a psychological and moral point-of-view. That is the difference between the world view and the view of the Bible. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? IMO, in a sane worldview one would think that there was nothing to be saved from, other than the travails and troubles of day-to-day life. What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? The past is gone. All we can do is make reparations to the best of our ability, and take steps to avoid repeating a problem behaviour in the future. The only way that we can think we have a right to be with God as we are is if we adopt a view that our desires and our happiness are more important than other peoples'. Non sequitur. I see absolutely no obstacles to all sentient beings existing in the presence of a genuine god. I mean that literally: No obstacles whatsoever. Our behaviours should not matter. Our views should not matter. Surely an authentic and compassionate deity could take the very worst we have to offer and, given infinite time and its supposedly superior wisdom, create the ultimate teachable moment and guide us to a better way of thinking. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litassio Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 "It's the height of dishonesty to stand in front of a pulpit and claim that God loves everyone, when in fact everything is predestined, who is to say that a person could think that God loves them, only to find out later that nothing could be further from the truth......." You are greatly mistaken. If God is indeed the Father or Creator of everything and everyone in this cosmos, then as a true father He will not be able to hate any of His children and will surely love each and everyone of his creations in an equal way just like any ideal mother or father will do. No proper father or mother will love their naughty children any less than their goody-goody children, now will they? However, practically speaking, when someone tells me about Jesus, I have a choice: to accept Jesus or not? It doesn't matter in making my decision, whether it was predestined or not. I'm simply responsible before God for the decision I make. That is the fallacy that people fall into when people say "oh, but if God has chosen me, then I would be accepting Jesus right now but I'm not, therefore he hasn't". Well, you could choose to accept Jesus, couldn't you? It's up to you to choose:) It would be very strange indeed if the spiritual well-being or future of a person would depend only on him or her accepting Jesus. If God had only provided for this very limited way to reach out to Him then that would be not only totally weird, but also highly unjust to all the people who were totally unaware of this religious sect not to speak of beings on other planets in this universe. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? The only way that we can think we have a right to be with God as we are is if we adopt a view that our desires and our happiness are more important than other peoples'. You should not develop a sinner complex and it seems you have done just that! If there is a God who created us, then surely He would give us the tools to spiritually improve ourselves. Ideating that you are a helpless sinner is only going to turn you into a miserable weak hypocritical individual. Do your best and live like a lion instead of like a spiritual beggar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 20, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 20, 2011 God pre-destined you to evangelise with the certain person. God pre-destined the certain person to reject thye gospel and go to hell. God also pre-destined people with the concept of pre-destination that no need to evangelise. God also pre-destined you to ask such a question. God also pre-destined the web-founder to establish this forum for you to ask this question,,,, What the fuck,,,, if everything is pre-destined by god, then huh,,,, nothing much to say anyway,,,,,,, hell and heaven goers are fixed,,, who cares Preach it Pratt! I remember reading a book one time that said that God even knew what babies were goIng to eventually 'reject Christ' and go to hell?????? God damn - I find that soooo confusing AND STUPID ! Why would a good, kind, loving God..................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 20, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 20, 2011 God is God. I think if I have a look at myself, then I definitely see that I do not deserve to be saved. It would not be wrong of God to condemn me to Hell. That is the difference between the world view and the view of the Bible. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? My darling fellow human friend - you are so wonderful! It is so sad that you actually believe this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturalMary63 Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 However, practically speaking, when someone tells me about Jesus, I have a choice: to accept Jesus or not? It doesn't matter in making my decision, whether it was predestined or not. I'm simply responsible before God for the decision I make. That is the fallacy that people fall into when people say "oh, but if God has chosen me, then I would be accepting Jesus right now but I'm not, therefore he hasn't". Well, you could choose to accept Jesus, couldn't you? It's up to you to choose:) Wait a minute, though... the problem, imo, is that if it's pre-destined, you DON'T have a real choice at all. Predestination and free will/choice are mutually exclusive. I don't understand how you can say that it doesn't matter whether or not it's predestined.... then assume you have a choice. YOU can only choose if there is no predestination. Right? Or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillAChristian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 God is God. I think if I have a look at myself, then I definitely see that I do not deserve to be saved. It would not be wrong of God to condemn me to Hell. You're kidding Me, right? You actually believe that you deserve eternal torture, and that it's within the rights of a god to inflict such a thing upon you? That is hideously wrong from both a psychological and moral point-of-view. That is the difference between the world view and the view of the Bible. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? IMO, in a sane worldview one would think that there was nothing to be saved from, other than the travails and troubles of day-to-day life. What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? The past is gone. All we can do is make reparations to the best of our ability, and take steps to avoid repeating a problem behaviour in the future. The only way that we can think we have a right to be with God as we are is if we adopt a view that our desires and our happiness are more important than other peoples'. Non sequitur. I see absolutely no obstacles to all sentient beings existing in the presence of a genuine god. I mean that literally: No obstacles whatsoever. Our behaviours should not matter. Our views should not matter. Surely an authentic and compassionate deity could take the very worst we have to offer and, given infinite time and its supposedly superior wisdom, create the ultimate teachable moment and guide us to a better way of thinking. What about all those people who we have hurt through our mistakes. I do not see for a moment why a kind and loving Creator should accept anything that's even remotely bad in His presence, let alone the worst that we have to offer. God could do that if our sin affected only us alone, but that's not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 What about all those people who we have hurt through our mistakes. I do not see for a moment why a kind and loving Creator should accept anything that's even remotely bad in His presence, let alone the worst that we have to offer. God could do that if our sin affected only us alone, but that's not the case. In Job, Satan is in God's presence and makes a bet. Adam and Eve sinned and supposedly deserved punishment, yet God talked to them eye-to-eye. So obviously, God can be in both the presence of sin and evil and accept it if necessary. And isn't it so that God is present everywhere? Does omnipresent mean "omnipresent in Heaven only," or is God literally everywhere? Then he must be where sin and evil exist in this world as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillAChristian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 "It's the height of dishonesty to stand in front of a pulpit and claim that God loves everyone, when in fact everything is predestined, who is to say that a person could think that God loves them, only to find out later that nothing could be further from the truth......." You are greatly mistaken. If God is indeed the Father or Creator of everything and everyone in this cosmos, then as a true father He will not be able to hate any of His children and will surely love each and everyone of his creations in an equal way just like any ideal mother or father will do. No proper father or mother will love their naughty children any less than their goody-goody children, now will they? However, practically speaking, when someone tells me about Jesus, I have a choice: to accept Jesus or not? It doesn't matter in making my decision, whether it was predestined or not. I'm simply responsible before God for the decision I make. That is the fallacy that people fall into when people say "oh, but if God has chosen me, then I would be accepting Jesus right now but I'm not, therefore he hasn't". Well, you could choose to accept Jesus, couldn't you? It's up to you to choose:) It would be very strange indeed if the spiritual well-being or future of a person would depend only on him or her accepting Jesus. If God had only provided for this very limited way to reach out to Him then that would be not only totally weird, but also highly unjust to all the people who were totally unaware of this religious sect not to speak of beings on other planets in this universe. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? The only way that we can think we have a right to be with God as we are is if we adopt a view that our desires and our happiness are more important than other peoples'. You should not develop a sinner complex and it seems you have done just that! If there is a God who created us, then surely He would give us the tools to spiritually improve ourselves. Ideating that you are a helpless sinner is only going to turn you into a miserable weak hypocritical individual. Do your best and live like a lion instead of like a spiritual beggar. A proper father or mother, of course, will love their naughty children but they will still discipline them when they do the wrong thing, won't they? If they don't, they are not a good parent, they are settng up their kids for failure. Besides, in the case of us and God, we are the ones who rejected God. God loves us but if we walk away from Him, he essentially gives us what we want by sending us to Hell ie a place without God. Of course, we will find we don't want it once we have it, after all, but too late... In regards to people who have never heard of Jesus, we do know that God is a just God, so there *may* be hope for them there. However, in our day, only the bushmen of the Kalarahi, some tribes up the Amazon and possibly some Peruvian herdsmen may not have heard of Jesus. Everyone else is clearly still on the hook. "Do your best and live like a lion instead of like a spiritual beggar." The Bible actually calls on us to do just that. Just witness the many exhortations of Paul to various churches. What Jesus was on about was recognising that no matter how much we improve ourselves, we are not saved through that. But of course we should keep improving ourselves and live better lives, all the more so when we have a certainty of eternal life:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillAChristian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 God pre-destined you to evangelise with the certain person. God pre-destined the certain person to reject thye gospel and go to hell. God also pre-destined people with the concept of pre-destination that no need to evangelise. God also pre-destined you to ask such a question. God also pre-destined the web-founder to establish this forum for you to ask this question,,,, What the fuck,,,, if everything is pre-destined by god, then huh,,,, nothing much to say anyway,,,,,,, hell and heaven goers are fixed,,, who cares Preach it Pratt! I remember reading a book one time that said that God even knew what babies were goIng to eventually 'reject Christ' and go to hell?????? God damn - I find that soooo confusing AND STUPID ! Why would a good, kind, loving God..................................... Please note though it's not God's fault that people reject Him...we do have our free will regardless of predestination. Even though it might seem confusing but this is God we are talking about. Why would you expect to understand every single thing about God (a higher life form) when most of the time human beings are barely able to understand one another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillAChristian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 God is God. I think if I have a look at myself, then I definitely see that I do not deserve to be saved. It would not be wrong of God to condemn me to Hell. That is the difference between the world view and the view of the Bible. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? My darling fellow human friend - you are so wonderful! It is so sad that you actually believe this. Thank you very much for the kind sentiment:) But, really, when I look back, I have definitely done stuff I'm not proud of. The thing is what Jesus has done actually affirms our importance to God. After all, to counterbalance all the sin stuff, at the end, we are so important to God that he actually sent Jesus:) Not only that but even people who may seem unpleasant to us are actually equally important to God. But thank you:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 God is God. I think if I have a look at myself, then I definitely see that I do not deserve to be saved. It would not be wrong of God to condemn me to Hell. That is the difference between the world view and the view of the Bible. On what basis can we believe that we deserve to be saved? What about all the wrong stuff we have done in our lives? The only way that we can think we have a right to be with God as we are is if we adopt a view that our desires and our happiness are more important than other peoples'. I've got good news for you. Neither you nor any other human being needs to be "saved." There is no hell to be condemned to and no god of the bible to condemn you to it. You were not born with original sin and you were not born worthy of nothing more than eternal damnation and everlasting torture. You are a human being with the worth inherent in that and not born some low sinner who must be "saved" from what this "god" created and the conditions that he allegedly put you into. Once you come to this realization, you can join those of us who have freed ourselves from the chains of Christianity which are locked by the hell doctrine and tended to by priestly jailers who preach their sermons of enslavement to the masses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillAChristian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 However, practically speaking, when someone tells me about Jesus, I have a choice: to accept Jesus or not? It doesn't matter in making my decision, whether it was predestined or not. I'm simply responsible before God for the decision I make. That is the fallacy that people fall into when people say "oh, but if God has chosen me, then I would be accepting Jesus right now but I'm not, therefore he hasn't". Well, you could choose to accept Jesus, couldn't you? It's up to you to choose:) Wait a minute, though... the problem, imo, is that if it's pre-destined, you DON'T have a real choice at all. Predestination and free will/choice are mutually exclusive. I don't understand how you can say that it doesn't matter whether or not it's predestined.... then assume you have a choice. YOU can only choose if there is no predestination. Right? Or am I missing something? There is both pre-destination and free will at the same time. We may not fully understands this but surely we wouldn't expect to be able to understand everything about a higher life-form? God is actually outside of time. It's like a person moving in two dimensions trying to understand the third dimension (kinda like when Homer crosses over to our world in the SImpsons) The two dimension person may be able to grasp the concept of three dimensions but they will never fully understand it, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 A proper father or mother, of course, will love their naughty children but they will still discipline them when they do the wrong thing, won't they? If they don't, they are not a good parent, they are settng up their kids for failure. Besides, in the case of us and God, we are the ones who rejected God. God loves us but if we walk away from Him, he essentially gives us what we want by sending us to Hell ie a place without God. Of course, we will find we don't want it once we have it, after all, but too late... Some problems here: First, Eternal punishment is not the same as being disciplined. To discipline your child means that they get a temporary punishment so they can learn to do the right thing next time. Eternal punishment will never teach anyone anything, it's only a penalty. Secondly, the penalty should fit the crime. To "not believe" is penalized with eternal punishment. And you can be a serial killer, be saved, and go to Heaven, while a person who never did anyone harm goes to Hell. It just doesn't fit. What are we penalized for? For not believing? Lastly, to "not believe" is not the same as "intentionally reject" something. I don't believe in Santa Claus, but it doesn't mean I reject Santa Claus. Do you understand the difference? Do you believe in Santa Claus? Does that mean that you hate or reject Santa Claus? In regards to people who have never heard of Jesus, we do know that God is a just God, so there *may* be hope for them there. However, in our day, only the bushmen of the Kalarahi, some tribes up the Amazon and possibly some Peruvian herdsmen may not have heard of Jesus. Everyone else is clearly still on the hook. So a person has a better chance to go to Heaven if they do not hear the Gospel. Hearing the Gospel and not believing means certain punishment, while not hearing the Gospel can give a person a free pass. In other words, it's better to not evangelize. It gives people a better chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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