God Can't Lead Me If I Won't Follow

[dB-Paradox]

This was what my father in law said over the weekend, and while it made me think he was at his delusional low, I am still trying to think of a proper Christian counter response. [...] I wonder how a Christian would respond to that? Anyway, I may be getting a little off topic....what would your response be to the quote in the subject line?

How long has this back and forth between the two of you been going on? Awhile now that I know of.

We had one "formal" conversation a few months back (which honestly was pointless, as all he wanted to do was talk and not listen) but most of his comments are made at family gatherings while we are all at the table eating. He's super crazy about his god and since I am vastly outnumbered, I just grin and bear it. Also, he's not addressing me personally, but I know that's where he's directing his comments. If I mention something, I know it'll get tossed back in my face, and I'm not very good at confrontation. Perhaps one day I'll get the nerve to stand up and just say something....someday....

[Vigile]

how is it fair that I will suffer for eternity and God not come down in his almighty glory and fix my misunderstanding?

 

You bring back so many memories with this. This is so close to my thinking as I was just beginning the deconversion process.

I noticed from some other members and their testimonies that this is quite common. If knowing God and God's existence is so important, it just doesn't make sense that this knowledge is based on rumors and second hand "prophetic" words.

 

Yeah, that too. But I was thinking more in line with "I tried so damned hard to get to know him -- nobody tried harder, as hard, but not harder -- and now that I have doubts too strong to overcome, if he gave any kind of shit at all, he would give me something to believe in."

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, that too. But I was thinking more in line with "I tried so damned hard to get to know him -- nobody tried harder, as hard, but not harder -- and now that I have doubts too strong to overcome, if he gave any kind of shit at all, he would give me something to believe in."

I totally recognize that too. It was a serious problem for me. I gave it all. I gave up my career, life, family, economy, everything, and I never saw one single miracle or sign of any kind. I just couldn't understand the whole "these signs will follow those who believe." I believed, but no signs followed.

[MagickMonkey]

how is it fair that I will suffer for eternity and God not come down in his almighty glory and fix my misunderstanding?

 

You bring back so many memories with this. This is so close to my thinking as I was just beginning the deconversion process.

I noticed from some other members and their testimonies that this is quite common. If knowing God and God's existence is so important, it just doesn't make sense that this knowledge is based on rumors and second hand "prophetic" words.

 

Yeah, that too. But I was thinking more in line with "I tried so damned hard to get to know him -- nobody tried harder, as hard, but not harder -- and now that I have doubts too strong to overcome, if he gave any kind of shit at all, he would give me something to believe in."

 

Yep, that describes me pretty well.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

You can't be lead by, nor refuse to follow, that which doesn't exist. As being lead by nothing, or following nothing, isn't something you can actively do, as it would amount to neither being lead nor following.

[mwc]

We had one "formal" conversation a few months back (which honestly was pointless, as all he wanted to do was talk and not listen) but most of his comments are made at family gatherings while we are all at the table eating. He's super crazy about his god and since I am vastly outnumbered, I just grin and bear it. Also, he's not addressing me personally, but I know that's where he's directing his comments. If I mention something, I know it'll get tossed back in my face, and I'm not very good at confrontation. Perhaps one day I'll get the nerve to stand up and just say something....someday....

I see. I thought this was something that had been ongoing between the two of you. My bad. It appears he's being more of a passive-aggressive dick. If you're not willing to just flat out confront him or disassociate from him entirely then your best option is to just not engage him. Engaging him, which can mean just being present for this type of conversation, will encourage him and he'll just amp it up. If at all possible exit the area if he starts down this path. Hopefully he'll get tired of playing and move on.

 

mwc

[dB-Paradox]

Passive aggressive is spot on! He told me before we had the "formal" conversation that he didn't want to argue or debate. It's like a bully mentality. Weak alone, tough with friends!

[foolish girl]

When I was a doubting christian and especially when I was on the verge of losing my faith, I thought it was so fucking unfair that god basically forced belief on Paul but would not do that for me.

 

That is kind of sad. But a really good point. "Well paul had to spread the gosple, he had a job to do." That is what my sweetheart fundy would say.

 

Well what makes Paul so fuckin' special? Don't I have a raison D'etre? Maybe I should not have been created, since all I am going to do is lead my innocent children to hell! And god knew it all along.

 

Hmmmm

 

It is not at all logical that wonders ceased when Jesus left. And yet, all THROUGH the old and new testaments- people are reported to disbelieve in the FACE of evidence.

 

Of course, we DO have the PERFECT word to guide us now. THEY didn't have that, see? ALL of the big questions have been answered for us.

 

[MagickMonkey]

Of course, we DO have the PERFECT word to guide us now. THEY didn't have that, see? ALL of the big questions have been answered for us.

 

 

Hahahah, I remember hearing that over and over again growing up. In the very rare religions discussions I have with my Grandma (who is still a CoC'er), she will say this.

[foolish girl]

Yeah, if that's the case, christians should shut the fuck up. According to that theory, spreading the gospel might actually damn people to hell.

 

The Spanish conquistadors bashed the skulls of Aztec babies on a rock wall after baptizing them so they wouldn't be raised heathen. I never understood the anti abortion position of xians for this same reason.

 

oh. my. god.

 

I just need a moment to recover from that. It is where logic takes you though, isn't it?! They were helping god.

 

reminds me of a skit I saw on youtube lemme see if I can find it.

 

[chosendarkness]

Yeah, that too. But I was thinking more in line with "I tried so damned hard to get to know him -- nobody tried harder, as hard, but not harder -- and now that I have doubts too strong to overcome, if he gave any kind of shit at all, he would give me something to believe in."

I totally recognize that too. It was a serious problem for me. I gave it all. I gave up my career, life, family, economy, everything, and I never saw one single miracle or sign of any kind. I just couldn't understand the whole "these signs will follow those who believe." I believed, but no signs followed.

I experienced the same thing too. I started to wonder that if it was supposed to be so real, then in actual life why was it was so non-present? If we're supposed to directly connected to the greatest and only deity..the maker of everything, not just 'friends' but intimately connected to this deity.. then where is the evidence of such a grand claim?

 

.

[MagickMonkey]

Yeah, if that's the case, christians should shut the fuck up. According to that theory, spreading the gospel might actually damn people to hell.

 

The Spanish conquistadors bashed the skulls of Aztec babies on a rock wall after baptizing them so they wouldn't be raised heathen. I never understood the anti abortion position of xians for this same reason.

 

oh. my. god.

 

I just need a moment to recover from that. It is where logic takes you though, isn't it?! They were helping god.

 

reminds me of a skit I saw on youtube lemme see if I can find it.

 

 

Holy shit!!! I thought about this same thing as a christian. Of course, the answer is always "because you have the job of spreading the gospel to others on this earth, blah, blah, blah". Ok, fine, but why be sad when people die or when you find out you're about to die. No one seeks medical attention because they are so concerned about spreading god's supposed word.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

God is all the religious gangs combined. That's all they are. They extort you out of your money and loyalty. If you are unloyal and don't like in a country with a significant number of people to stand against them. Then in come the crusades and inquisitions, jihads and jizyas, etc....

[Guest loslogos]

This was what my father in law said over the weekend, and while it made me think he was at his delusional low, I am still trying to think of a proper Christian counter response. Off the top of my head, Paul comes to mind...a man who, according to Christian tradition, was blinded and basically forced to believe. If he wasn't a man who wasn't willing to follow, then I don't know who was. The Christian response would likely be to follow Paul's example, but Paul didn't follow the examples of the apostles before him, so the argument still stands. And of course, there may be the responses like, "Why should God have to reveal himself to you, or to anyone else...he already did it!" And maybe God really isn't omnipotent, and therefore would tire of revealing himself to everyone! Ha! I wonder how a Christian would respond to that? Anyway, I may be getting a little off topic....what would your response be to the quote in the subject line?

 

 

God worked differently with all his prophets, messiah and saints. This means it's impossible to compare one with another to determine who God is. It's not the flesh of man that is saved. The saved part is our created existence in God and all God's people are saved from their flesh. This is why most people have died in the past and the rest will die soon. Christianity and all other religions are only deceptions God used to keep most of his people busy while he worked with his chosen ones and revealed his knowledge with them. This knowledge of God is the only reason for this first generation of flesh and it will be used for his new adult bodies when they wake up in paradise. They won't have any memory for a languge so the knowledge will guide them to form a new vocabulary and language. Then God can reveal more knowledge in them as they speak to each other. This is the only way God can speak through us.

[MagickMonkey]

This was what my father in law said over the weekend, and while it made me think he was at his delusional low, I am still trying to think of a proper Christian counter response. Off the top of my head, Paul comes to mind...a man who, according to Christian tradition, was blinded and basically forced to believe. If he wasn't a man who wasn't willing to follow, then I don't know who was. The Christian response would likely be to follow Paul's example, but Paul didn't follow the examples of the apostles before him, so the argument still stands. And of course, there may be the responses like, "Why should God have to reveal himself to you, or to anyone else...he already did it!" And maybe God really isn't omnipotent, and therefore would tire of revealing himself to everyone! Ha! I wonder how a Christian would respond to that? Anyway, I may be getting a little off topic....what would your response be to the quote in the subject line?

 

 

God worked differently with all his prophets, messiah and saints. This means it's impossible to compare one with another to determine who God is. It's not the flesh of man that is saved. The saved part is our created existence in God and all God's people are saved from their flesh. This is why most people have died in the past and the rest will die soon. Christianity and all other religions are only deceptions God used to keep most of his people busy while he worked with his chosen ones and revealed his knowledge with them. This knowledge of God is the only reason for this first generation of flesh and it will be used for his new adult bodies when they wake up in paradise. They won't have any memory for a languge so the knowledge will guide them to form a new vocabulary and language. Then God can reveal more knowledge in them as they speak to each other. This is the only way God can speak through us.

 

What god?

[Guest loslogos]

This was what my father in law said over the weekend, and while it made me think he was at his delusional low, I am still trying to think of a proper Christian counter response. Off the top of my head, Paul comes to mind...a man who, according to Christian tradition, was blinded and basically forced to believe. If he wasn't a man who wasn't willing to follow, then I don't know who was. The Christian response would likely be to follow Paul's example, but Paul didn't follow the examples of the apostles before him, so the argument still stands. And of course, there may be the responses like, "Why should God have to reveal himself to you, or to anyone else...he already did it!" And maybe God really isn't omnipotent, and therefore would tire of revealing himself to everyone! Ha! I wonder how a Christian would respond to that? Anyway, I may be getting a little off topic....what would your response be to the quote in the subject line?

 

 

God worked differently with all his prophets, messiah and saints. This means it's impossible to compare one with another to determine who God is. It's not the flesh of man that is saved. The saved part is our created existence in God and all God's people are saved from their flesh. This is why most people have died in the past and the rest will die soon. Christianity and all other religions are only deceptions God used to keep most of his people busy while he worked with his chosen ones and revealed his knowledge with them. This knowledge of God is the only reason for this first generation of flesh and it will be used for his new adult bodies when they wake up in paradise. They won't have any memory for a languge so the knowledge will guide them to form a new vocabulary and language. Then God can reveal more knowledge in them as they speak to each other. This is the only way God can speak through us.

 

What god?

 

Are you the authority in this universe that I need to answer to?

[MagickMonkey]

This was what my father in law said over the weekend, and while it made me think he was at his delusional low, I am still trying to think of a proper Christian counter response. Off the top of my head, Paul comes to mind...a man who, according to Christian tradition, was blinded and basically forced to believe. If he wasn't a man who wasn't willing to follow, then I don't know who was. The Christian response would likely be to follow Paul's example, but Paul didn't follow the examples of the apostles before him, so the argument still stands. And of course, there may be the responses like, "Why should God have to reveal himself to you, or to anyone else...he already did it!" And maybe God really isn't omnipotent, and therefore would tire of revealing himself to everyone! Ha! I wonder how a Christian would respond to that? Anyway, I may be getting a little off topic....what would your response be to the quote in the subject line?

 

 

God worked differently with all his prophets, messiah and saints. This means it's impossible to compare one with another to determine who God is. It's not the flesh of man that is saved. The saved part is our created existence in God and all God's people are saved from their flesh. This is why most people have died in the past and the rest will die soon. Christianity and all other religions are only deceptions God used to keep most of his people busy while he worked with his chosen ones and revealed his knowledge with them. This knowledge of God is the only reason for this first generation of flesh and it will be used for his new adult bodies when they wake up in paradise. They won't have any memory for a languge so the knowledge will guide them to form a new vocabulary and language. Then God can reveal more knowledge in them as they speak to each other. This is the only way God can speak through us.

 

What god?

 

Are you the authority in this universe that I need to answer to?

 

YES!!!!! . Just kidding, of course. I'm just a monkey who often likes to debate?

[Guest loslogos]

This was what my father in law said over the weekend, and while it made me think he was at his delusional low, I am still trying to think of a proper Christian counter response. Off the top of my head, Paul comes to mind...a man who, according to Christian tradition, was blinded and basically forced to believe. If he wasn't a man who wasn't willing to follow, then I don't know who was. The Christian response would likely be to follow Paul's example, but Paul didn't follow the examples of the apostles before him, so the argument still stands. And of course, there may be the responses like, "Why should God have to reveal himself to you, or to anyone else...he already did it!" And maybe God really isn't omnipotent, and therefore would tire of revealing himself to everyone! Ha! I wonder how a Christian would respond to that? Anyway, I may be getting a little off topic....what would your response be to the quote in the subject line?

 

 

God worked differently with all his prophets, messiah and saints. This means it's impossible to compare one with another to determine who God is. It's not the flesh of man that is saved. The saved part is our created existence in God and all God's people are saved from their flesh. This is why most people have died in the past and the rest will die soon. Christianity and all other religions are only deceptions God used to keep most of his people busy while he worked with his chosen ones and revealed his knowledge with them. This knowledge of God is the only reason for this first generation of flesh and it will be used for his new adult bodies when they wake up in paradise. They won't have any memory for a languge so the knowledge will guide them to form a new vocabulary and language. Then God can reveal more knowledge in them as they speak to each other. This is the only way God can speak through us.

 

What god?

 

Are you the authority in this universe that I need to answer to?

 

YES!!!!! . Just kidding, of course. I'm just a monkey who often likes to debate?

 

 

I'm the truth who is impossible to debate. All you'll do is get angry and have me banned so I don't debate anyone. I just give them the truth.

[Ouroboros]

I'm the truth who is impossible to debate. All you'll do is get angry and have me banned so I don't debate anyone. I just give them the truth.

So you've been here before and was banned? If so, I'm certain we had very good reasons, and we should do it again. Or are you just making up shit? Your choice.

[chosendarkness]

 

 

Christianity and all other religions are only deceptions God used to keep most of his people busy while he worked with his chosen ones and revealed his knowledge with them. This knowledge of God is the only reason for this first generation of flesh and it will be used for his new adult bodies when they wake up in paradise.

Uh.. no. The brain evolved, that's why people thought up gods. We looked up at the stars and said 'what is that?' Since then anyone and everyone has either made up something or let others tell them what's 'out there.' People waste their time on that instead of things that really matters, like the people around you. Forget gods, our lives on earth are far more important.

[MagickMonkey]

I'm the truth who is impossible to debate. All you'll do is get angry and have me banned so I don't debate anyone. I just give them the truth.

 

I can debate nicely, though if you've already pissed of the mods enough, it might be best to just go away.

[Guest loslogos]

I'm the truth who is impossible to debate. All you'll do is get angry and have me banned so I don't debate anyone. I just give them the truth.

So you've been here before and was banned? If so, I'm certain we had very good reasons, and we should do it again. Or are you just making up shit? Your choice.

 

 

Are you angry at religion or me?

[Ouroboros]

I'm the truth who is impossible to debate. All you'll do is get angry and have me banned so I don't debate anyone. I just give them the truth.

So you've been here before and was banned? If so, I'm certain we had very good reasons, and we should do it again. Or are you just making up shit? Your choice.

 

 

Are you angry at religion or me?

I'm not angry, but it looks like you're trolling for a reaction. I'm not just a member here. I have a responsibility to try to keep it somewhat clear from lunatics and trolls.

 

So are you a poster who was banned in the past? Or are you just making that up?

 

You're making an accusation, and it's natural and rightful to challenge that accusation.

 

Either you are completely new to this website and you were never banned from here, which means you're just trying to make yourself look good (and in effect are lying about this website).

 

Or you actually were a former poster who got banned, and most likely banned for other reasons than your religious stuff.

 

Either way, you're not being honest.

[Guest loslogos]

I'm the truth who is impossible to debate. All you'll do is get angry and have me banned so I don't debate anyone. I just give them the truth.

So you've been here before and was banned? If so, I'm certain we had very good reasons, and we should do it again. Or are you just making up shit? Your choice.

 

 

Are you angry at religion or me?

I'm not angry, but it looks like you're trolling for a reaction. I'm not just a member here. I have a responsibility to try to keep it somewhat clear from lunatics and trolls.

 

So are you a poster who was banned in the past? Or are you just making that up?

 

You're making an accusation, and it's natural and rightful to challenge that accusation.

 

Either you are completely new to this website and you were never banned from here, which means you're just trying to make yourself look good (and in effect are lying about this website).

 

Or you actually were a former poster who got banned, and most likely banned for other reasons than your religious stuff.

 

Either way, you're not being honest.

 

I can understand religious people banning people because it was the religious Jewish Pharisees who had the messiah killed. They didn't like hearing the truth expose their lies. But those of you who get out of religion like I did 18 years ago, you don't need to have all that fear like they do. When I wasn't in religion, the furthest thing from my mind was religion. I enjoyed my work, and family and let the religious people do what they do best and that's to push their lies on everyone else. I don't have to accept their lies and in fact, now I expose their lies with the knowledge I have. I'm not in here to mess with atheists because it's not an atheist who will kill me. My killer is going to be a Christian.

[MagickMonkey]

I'm the truth who is impossible to debate. All you'll do is get angry and have me banned so I don't debate anyone. I just give them the truth.

So you've been here before and was banned? If so, I'm certain we had very good reasons, and we should do it again. Or are you just making up shit? Your choice.

 

 

Are you angry at religion or me?

I'm not angry, but it looks like you're trolling for a reaction. I'm not just a member here. I have a responsibility to try to keep it somewhat clear from lunatics and trolls.

 

So are you a poster who was banned in the past? Or are you just making that up?

 

You're making an accusation, and it's natural and rightful to challenge that accusation.

 

Either you are completely new to this website and you were never banned from here, which means you're just trying to make yourself look good (and in effect are lying about this website).

 

Or you actually were a former poster who got banned, and most likely banned for other reasons than your religious stuff.

 

Either way, you're not being honest.

 

He made a post in this thread, too. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/45139-i-just-dont-know-what-to-do-anymore/

 

I know most posts in the Rants and Replies forum are fair game, but I (and I'm damn sure just about everyone else) think he needs to not bother start shit in that thread.