Where Does Bible Say Non-believers Are Fools?

[JohnZain]

I just don't recall ever seeing this. Please give the reference.

[ScifiChick]

^{Psalm 14:1}The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

[oddbird1963]

Psalms 14:1 - "The fool has said in his heart "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds ; There is no one who does good."

 

The passage is not about atheists, although Christians who like to cherry pick scriptures and twist the meaning to suit a desired doctrinal position will use Psalms 14:1 as a proof text.

 

In the hebrew bible, the fool is a person who lives a corrupt and perverse life. The fool depicted in the psalms and other wisdom literature does not look at the contradictions of scripture, the philosophical and epistemological problems with a theistic point of view and conclude "there is no evidence for a god in this universe." Instead, they live a life in violation of god's law and despite the wisdom offered by god. It's a completely different thing.

[ScifiChick]

Psalms 14:1 - "The fool has said in his heart "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds ; There is no one who does good."

 

The passage is not about atheists, although Christians who like to cherry pick scriptures and twist the meaning to suit a desired doctrinal position will use Psalms 14:1 as a proof text.

 

In the hebrew bible, the fool is a person who lives a corrupt and perverse life. The fool depicted in the psalms and other wisdom literature does not look at the contradictions of scripture, the philosophical and epistemological problems with a theistic point of view and conclude "there is no evidence for a god in this universe." Instead, they live a life in violation of god's law and despite the wisdom offered by god. It's a completely different thing.

 

 

I wasn't defending it. I was merely answering the question. You say it's not about atheists, but all the fundies I know think atheists do all of the things that scripture implies. Fundies think atheists are liars and actually really do believe in God but are in rebellion, and if that were true, then the scripture would fit.

 

 

[oddbird1963]

Psalms 14:1 - "The fool has said in his heart "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds ; There is no one who does good."

 

The passage is not about atheists, although Christians who like to cherry pick scriptures and twist the meaning to suit a desired doctrinal position will use Psalms 14:1 as a proof text.

 

In the hebrew bible, the fool is a person who lives a corrupt and perverse life. The fool depicted in the psalms and other wisdom literature does not look at the contradictions of scripture, the philosophical and epistemological problems with a theistic point of view and conclude "there is no evidence for a god in this universe." Instead, they live a life in violation of god's law and despite the wisdom offered by god. It's a completely different thing.

 

 

I wasn't defending it. I was merely answering the question. You say it's not about atheists, but all the fundies I know think atheists do all of the things that scripture implies. Fundies think atheists are liars and actually really do believe in God but are in rebellion, and if that were true, then the scripture would fit.

 

Oh, I know you weren't defending it, SciFiChick.

 

Yes. Fundies have a skewed, straw man view of atheists. They truly think this passage is about Atheism when it is about something different. But it is so easy to twist the meaning of a passage in order to have a silver bullet refutation of atheismm. Therefore, no thinking or struggling or getting to know people as they really are is required.

 

And to the fundies who have the notion that we are all rebellious liars , I say fuck 'em!

[ScifiChick]

+1

[Kaiser01]

its all a inturpritation so your right about the magic bullet. they simply look at it difrently in order to fit their ideals.

 

 

[JohnZain]

Okay, thanks guys.

 

Actually, I meant non-believers = non-Christian, so I was looking for an NT verse.

Of course the Psalms are Hebrew and not specifically Christian.

 

I remembered one that says the opposite:

Jesus said if you call someone a fool, you're in a danger of hellfire.

 

Then there's the one that says the gospel (good news) is foolishness

to those who are perishing (physically & spiritually), i.e. going to hell.

 

Still would like one from the NT, but ...

[♦ Fuego ♦]

If you are familiar with the scriptures, you will know that they have to be taken as a whole. There is no Old Testament/New Testament division over who God is or his opinion of mankind.

 

Isaiah 40:8: “The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our God shall stand forever.”

 

Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”

 

Malachi 3:6 “I the LORD do not change.”

 

2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

 

Thus the OT Psalm that calls us fools is not something a believer may discard.

 

That said, if you are looking specifically for the word "fool", it may not be in the NT as a description of unbelievers. The Apostles point to us as false teachers, since we deny Jesus and teach that he was merely a man, a cult leader, if he existed at all. In that case, there are a lot of scriptures that rain down judgment on us and insult us with terms like pig, dog, slaves of depravity, immoral, and so on (2 Peter chapter 2).

 

Then in 2 Thes 2, we are said to be delighting in wickedness, deluded, and "refusing to love the truth" because of our love of sin. This is simply a demonization of unbelievers, in an attempt to make things seem black and white. God responds not by helping us to see, but by sending us a delusion so we may be burned alive in his wrath. But of course, he takes no delight in the death of the wicked (Ezek 18:23).

 

Romans 1 says that we "suppress the truth" by our wickedness. This is the same passage where Paul states that God is obvious from nature, though he himself didn't arrive at that conclusion by observing nature but by spending several years being indoctrinated in the Jewish faith.

 

So while the NT may not directly use the term fool to describe us, there are plenty of other insults and near-racist treatment of us as vile awful little buggers that want to seduce the church and who delight in all kinds of nasty stuff.

[ScifiChick]

Okay, thanks guys.

 

Actually, I meant non-believers = non-Christian, so I was looking for an NT verse.

Of course the Psalms are Hebrew and not specifically Christian.

 

 

I'm curious. What's the point of the NT without the OT?

 

 

 

[Eugene39]

Actually, I meant non-believers = non-Christian, so I was looking for an NT verse.

Of course the Psalms are Hebrew and not specifically Christian.

 

I was going to say that the Psalms were written before Christianity had been invented. LOL There's the scripture about ones who turn their back on God are like a dog returning to its vomit, but there he's merely quoting Proverbs. 2 Peter 2:20-22

 

 

[JohnZain]

If you are familiar with the scriptures, you will know that they have to be taken as a whole.

There is no Old Testament/New Testament division over who God is or his opinion of mankind.

Thus the OT Psalm that calls us fools is not something a believer may discard.

Basically granted.

 

in 2 Thes 2, we are said to be delighting in wickedness, deluded, and "refusing to love the truth" because of our love of sin.

This is simply a demonization of unbelievers, in an attempt to make things seem black and white.

God responds not by helping us to see, but by sending us a delusion so we may be burned alive in his wrath.

But of course, he takes no delight in the death of the wicked (Ezek 18:23).

The Courts execute people, but take no delight in it.

 

Romans 1 says that we "suppress the truth" by our wickedness.

This is the same passage where Paul states that God is obvious from nature, though he himself didn't arrive

at that conclusion by observing nature but by spending several years being indoctrinated in the Jewish faith.

You don't know if Paul saw God in nature or not. Yes, He was born a Pharisee.

I have my own opinion of who and why some people (are able to) believe in the "foolishness" of the gospel.

 

[JohnZain]

I'm curious. What's the point of the NT without the OT?

Interesting question. You guys are a whole lot smarter than many Christians I'm dealing with.

I have to question whether some can read and understand anything at all.

BUT ... don't be too happy slopping around in the trough with the other pigs (as you say).

Because, it ain't how smart you are that counts. Sorry, and I'm not real happy with that truth either.

As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality.

Jesus was anointed to preach the gospel to the poor (poor in all of the various ways).

They're much more likely to really need God in their lives, right?

 

Okay, there could've been an NT w/o an OT (even though Jesus came to complete the OT).

The OT was for God to prove to everyone who man is and what his destiny is.

He did this through his spiritual idiot "chosen people", the Israelites/Jews.

They were spiritual idiots because all men historically have been spiritual idiots.

In other words, if God doesn't tell man what spiritual truth is, he's lost.

He's lost because everything is just his opinion.

 

Anyway, Jesus could have just come with His good news, and whoever believed Him

would have been going along with God's plan and would've been A-OK.

But, the background info from the OT was understood by all.

When jesus came along, He just repeated man's problem and gave God's new solution.

Yes, God promised a "new covenant" (one that would work) in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

Hope that answers your question.

[ScifiChick]

Interesting question. You guys are a whole lot smarter than many Christians I'm dealing with.

I have to question whether some can read and understand anything at all.

BUT ... don't be too happy slopping around in the trough with the other pigs (as you say).

Because, it ain't how smart you are that counts. Sorry, and I'm not real happy with that truth either.

As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality.

Jesus was anointed to preach the gospel to the poor (poor in all of the various ways).

They're much more likely to really need God in their lives, right?

One - I am not slopping around in a trough with pigs. Two, your assertion that it's not how smart you are that counts followed by calling it a truth that you aren't happy with does not actually make it a truth. The reason "intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality" is because Christian spirituality makes no sense whatsoever, and you have to turn your mind off to even hope to believe it. I cannot believe in a God that bases all "evidence" of his existence merely on hearsay.

Okay, there could've been an NT w/o an OT (even though Jesus came to complete the OT).The OT was for God to prove to everyone who man is and what his destiny is.

He did this through his spiritual idiot "chosen people", the Israelites/Jews.

They were spiritual idiots because all men historically have been spiritual idiots.

In other words, if God doesn't tell man what spiritual truth is, he's lost.

He's lost because everything is just his opinion.

 

The only thing that the OT proves, if you believe it at all, is that god is a genocidal maniac. He puts two people in a garden paradise, sticks a tempting tree in there, tells them not to eat from it, and when they do, condemns their entire species to hell and darkness, and the only way he can think of to fix the mess he created to send his own son which is somehow him and kill him. That's bloody. That's disgusting. And that's the opposite of love.

Anyway, Jesus could have just come with His good news, and whoever believed Him would have been going along with God's plan and would've been A-OK.

But, the background info from the OT was understood by all.

When jesus came along, He just repeated man's problem and gave God's new solution.

Yes, God promised a "new covenant" (one that would work) in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

Hope that answers your question.

God's "new solution" is not a very good one. Understand me. I don't care if it's true. I don't believe it is true. But even if I was mistaken, I would rather go to hell then spend eternity with a monster that would torture me eternally for the horrible crime of not believing and being related to a woman who ate a piece of fruit.Incidentally, I wasn't trying to lead you on with my question. I just hadn't ever heard that Christianity could work without the OT. I was raised to believe the entire Bible is the Word of God. That includes the OT.

 

 

[Onyx]

Interesting question. You guys are a whole lot smarter than many Christians I'm dealing with.

I have to question whether some can read and understand anything at all.

BUT ... don't be too happy slopping around in the trough with the other pigs (as you say).

Because, it ain't how smart you are that counts. Sorry, and I'm not real happy with that truth either.

As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality.

Jesus was anointed to preach the gospel to the poor (poor in all of the various ways).

They're much more likely to really need God in their lives, right?

 

Indeed intelligence is not everything but it does not preclude that being as clever as Einstein that you can not feel spiritual or feel awe. I feel awe because I know I live already, against enormous odds; it seems outrageous that I can exist in spite of it all but yet I do. I'm grateful. So the amount of intelligence to appreciate things like this is not a hindrance, but a companion piece.

 

If the god in question is a benevolent, then it should not matter how smart or dumb you are; the deity would love all. But since this is the god of the Holy bible we are talking about then I cannot but to accuse him of sheer favouritism. (See Jacob and Esau in the OT; see the Elect of 144,000 in NT.) Why favour only the uneducated when you hate the educated? For the god to love all, he needs to love all. It is not loving to call them fools if you are supposed to be a benevolent or loving deity.

Okay, there could've been an NT w/o an OT (even though Jesus came to complete the OT).

The OT was for God to prove to everyone who man is and what his destiny is.

He did this through his spiritual idiot "chosen people", the Israelites/Jews.

They were spiritual idiots because all men historically have been spiritual idiots.

In other words, if God doesn't tell man what spiritual truth is, he's lost.

He's lost because everything is just his opinion.

 

Agreed because I would not trust any deity or a person to to pass their opinion off as the truth unless she or he can back it up.

 

Anyway, Jesus could have just come with His good news, and whoever believed Him

would have been going along with God's plan and would've been A-OK.

But, the background info from the OT was understood by all.

When jesus came along, He just repeated man's problem and gave God's new solution.

Yes, God promised a "new covenant" (one that would work) in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

Hope that answers your question.

 

Yeah, but how will you explin the various contradictions that runs throughout both OT and NT? And I bet contradictions in the scripture would have had an quite important bearing on salvation.

[Ouroboros]

I just don't recall ever seeing this. Please give the reference.

Since you asked for an NT reference, I think Rom 1:22 might be the best fit for what you're looking for.

 

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

 

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

It seems like the author is referring to non-Christian or unbelievers in the author's specific God.

 

Perhaps you have a different interpretation of it, but, still, this is probably the closest.

[LivingLife]

This is a C&P from another forum which summarizes the problems with the entire biblical account.

 

The problem of evil puts the tin lid on the matter - the God of Christian theology is a contradiction in terms and cannot be possible.

 

Genesis is contradicted by the evidence. Exodus has no good support and is chronologically impossible, being placed after the establishment of Philistia which was supposedly after the Jews invaded Canaan. In fact evidence is that the jews grew (like Rome) on site and originally worshiped a lot of gods of which YHWH and his wife were only two.

 

The battles are historical or probably so but some the Israelites won, some they lost. No sign of the hand of God there. The predictions are evidently written after the event - probably all around the time of the Maccabean revolt since the prophecies Daniel and Tyre are dodgy as to Babylon (supposedly when they were written) but get their Greek material right. E.g the Alexandrian causeway and the Seleucid/Ptolemaic war but are after that either vague or wrong. Tyre was soon flourishing again. Similar is the prophecy of Babylon which prospered even under the Greeks.

 

Having disposed of the OT, the New T is a Christian fabrication based on the Jewish - based gentile - friendly teachings of Paul. He believed that Jesus was man, not God and a suffering obedient servant of God, not God incarnate. Since he got his info from the apostles who had made the best of a bad job of Jesus' failed messianic mission by supposing that his spirit had ascended and would soon return to finish the job, Paul worked out a theory involving Jesus as sacrifice to redeem Adam's disobedience.

 

Thus the gospels, going a bit further in taking the human animated by the spirit of God which we see even in John, were not yet at the stage of identifying Jesus AS God which theology was invented later.

 

Essentially, we can see the progression of theology from Paul as the Gospel - writers re-created God in his own image and cast the Jews (who had rejected Paul's theology) as the villains. The prophecies of Jesus are flimsy and have been used to construct the Jesus story in any case. Example the Bethlehem story was invented to fulfill scripture (which historically, Jesus didn't) The two differing accounts of Judas' death are based on mistranslated and out of context OT passages. Once you have seen the trick it's clear how the Jesus story was padded out with prophecy - the crucifixion even having Jesus quoting Psalms and John rather uncommonly lifting the spear (which the synoptics know nothing of) and bone - breaking out of context from Isaiah.

 

The OT is no evidence for God and Science is evidence against.

 

The New T is no evidence for God and history is evidence against.

 

Logically, theologically and practically, there is no sound evidence for God and plenty of evidence against.

 

That should be enough for most people, but Faith of course demands that reason and evidence should be subverted to religious belief.

Thanks to Arequipa aka Transponder

[buffettphan]

This is a C&P from another forum which summarizes the problems with the entire biblical account. < snipped >

That should be enough for most people, but Faith of course demands that reason and evidence should be subverted to religious belief.

 

That was an excellent summary. Thanks for posting it. Unfortunately, the last sentence is far too true!

[Antlerman]

As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality.

So is religion. Learning all sorts of theology, "plans for salvation" and whatnot are themselves distractions. I guess it comes down to what is borne out in your heart. Actually, intelligence, education, and reasoning can enhance spirituality even if its not attained through it. Being ignorant, really is a sin. If you think about it. And the fact that I see so many Christians with their heads buried in the sand says to me that don't have spirituality.

 

In other words, if God doesn't tell man what spiritual truth is, he's lost.

He's lost because everything is just his opinion.

And if the invisible things of him are reveled through creation itself, 'so that they are without excuse', then we don't need a quilt-work book of religious opinionators stitched together into what you apparently believe to be equal to God. If God is revealed through creation, then God is already in you. You are that creation. All you need to do is look within. To look to the words of those others as authoritative is to deny your own 'word of God'; i.e., your own heart.

 

What is it you said about things getting in the way of spirituality? In this way, the Bible gets in the way of spirituality. Religion gets in the way. You look to it for what is already yours, thus denying it to yourself.

 

Hope that answers your question.

Hope this challenges your assumptions.

[JohnZain]

the horrible crime of not believing and being related to a woman who ate a piece of fruit.

Incidentally, I wasn't trying to lead you on with my question.

I just hadn't ever heard that Christianity could work without the OT.

Everything was PERFECT in the Garden, and between God and Adam & Eve.

Then God says, "Just obey me in this ONE little insignificant thing."

I.E. "It's testing time, guys. Let's test that free will that I gave to you."

 

Next, BOTH Adam & Eve purposely disobeyed (rebelled against) their Creator, Best Buddy, etc.

From that point on, they were garbage ... sorry for being so blunt.

I'm trying to be blunt in explaining the powerful revelation that I have about this truth.

 

So, the actions of man's representatives before God were NOT so insignificant as people think.

Notice the similarity between this and God's "chosen people" being man's representatives later.

The free will thing just doesn't work, period.

 

So, why did God really want to prove this to everybody? I have no idea.

But, His next step (in the new covenant) is just to choose for Himself who He wants in heaven.

And the Bible explains WHO they are and WHY them.

 

The bottom line is ...

The Holy God is just not going to have sinful, rebellious, etc. people in heaven with Him for all eternity.

This certainly makes sense to me ... how about you?

I guess next best thing to revelation knowledge is intelligence and thoughtful reasoning.

 

Yes, I didn't really understand what you meant about NT w/o OT.

[JohnZain]

If the god in question is a benevolent, then it should not matter how smart or dumb you are; the deity would love all.

But since this is the god of the Holy bible we are talking about then I cannot but to accuse him of sheer favouritism.

(See Jacob and Esau in the OT; see the Elect of 144,000 in NT.) Why favour only the uneducated when you hate the educated?

For the god to love all, he needs to love all. It is not loving to call them fools if you are supposed to be a benevolent or loving deity.

 

Yeah, but how will you explin the various contradictions that runs throughout both OT and NT?

And I bet contradictions in the scripture would have had an quite important bearing on salvation.

 

The deity does love all of His creation ... even though most continually sin, rebel against His wishes, etc.

So, He simply doesn't want everybody in heaven with Him.

What contradictions do you refer to?

What bearing on salvation do you refer to?

 

[Ouroboros]

Everything was PERFECT in the Garden,

Really? And the evidence for that is...? A book, written supposedly thousands of years later by a nomad.

 

and between God and Adam & Eve.

Religion is what separates humans from Nature. Christianity is one way of destroying the true relationship with the real God, Reality.

 

Then God says, "Just obey me in this ONE little insignificant thing."

I.E. "It's testing time, guys. Let's test that free will that I gave to you."

Why test something that is perfect, unless there is a chance that it is not perfect. If A&E could fall, and did fall, they were not perfect.

 

Testing is to confirm the solidity and quality of a design. If you know, for certain, beyond a shadow of doubt, that your design is perfect, then the test should come back with exactly the perfect result.

 

So the conclusion I come to is that the story suggest that sin is part of your God's perfect plan. Sin and disobedience are required components of the design.

 

Next, BOTH Adam & Eve purposely disobeyed (rebelled against) their Creator, Best Buddy, etc.

From that point on, they were garbage ... sorry for being so blunt.

So they were PERFECT disobedient garbage.

 

I'm trying to be blunt in explaining the powerful revelation that I have about this truth.

What is truth?

 

So, the actions of man's representatives before God were NOT so insignificant as people think.

Notice the similarity between this and God's "chosen people" being man's representatives later.

The free will thing just doesn't work, period.

Are you saying that free will doesn't exist? So being a Christian is not a choice, but predetermined fate?

 

 

So, why did God really want to prove this to everybody? I have no idea.

But, His next step (in the new covenant) is just to choose for Himself who He wants in heaven.

And the Bible explains WHO they are and WHY them.

Since everything is CREATED, according to you, God could have CREATED the perfect beings to bring to Heaven. He could have made people having the ability to choose right. Since he failed, Adam and Even choosing wrong because they were faulty, then God is not a perfect designer... unless, as stated above, human faults are part of the "perfect" design.

 

The bottom line is ...

The Holy God is just not going to have sinful, rebellious, etc. people in heaven with Him for all eternity.

He didn't mind having rebellious Satan in his presence when he made the bet about Job.

 

I think the story really is about a God who created a faulty world and had a hissy-fit. He's just pissed at himself and takes it out on everyone else.

 

This certainly makes sense to me ... how about you?

I think my explanation makes more sense to me... how about you?

 

I guess next best thing to revelation knowledge is intelligence and thoughtful reasoning.

So revelation knowledge (dreams, visions, random thoughts from spiritual source) is still better than reasoning to you? Then why did you say, "This certainly makes sense..."? Making sense of something has to do with reasoning, but you believe revelation is better. So you should have said, "This was revealed to me, and it doesn't make sense, but it's true because I got it through revelation." But you didn't. Probably because you know that reason (and sense) does trump revelation and belief.

[par4dcourse]

As a matter of fact, intelligence, education, reasoning, etc. is a hindrance to spirituality.

 

Right. None of us damn smart folks in ;heaven. Dullards and idiots from top to bottom.

 

 

 

[Ouroboros]

On a side note. Talking about the "perfect" design in Eden. Did the "design" have all the faults listed on this site back then too? http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm

 

The male urethra

 

The urethra -- the tube via which urine exits the body -- is a soft tube. And it runs through the prostate, an organ prone to infection and subsequent swelling.

 

A mechanical engineer, a chemical engineer and a civil engineer were discussing the human body in the pub. "The body was clearly designed by a mechanical engineer... look at all the levers and joints." "No no no, it was obviously designed by a chemist, it's full of amazing chemical reactions!" "I'm sorry", said the civil engineer, "but it was undoubtedly a civil engineer. I've run countless sewage pipes through recreational areas myself..."

[LivingLife]

John Zain

 

Are you here to get help deconverting or do you think perhaps you can save a soul or two here?

 

If it is the latter, you are wasting your time but I guess we can have a bit of fun with your fairy tale if you are serious.