Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 John Zain Are you here to get help deconverting or do you think perhaps you can save a soul or two here? If it is the latter, you are wasting your time but I guess we can have a bit of fun with your fairy tale if you are serious. I'm here to basically answer questions ... because some of you have been told things which are not correct. Unfortunately, I believe you've been told things that are not correct as well. So far, I haven't heard anything from you that is new or different than what I heard 40 years ago. Tell me something new then. Or prove to me that God reveals things to you. For instance. ask God the names of my kids. Also, ask God why I don't believe anymore and tell me what he told you. (And without cheating. Don't search this website or google anything. It should be from your God, nowhere else.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 a spiritual idiot. well you are half right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I'm here to basically answer questions ... because some of you have been told things which are not correct. These "answers" you provide are the same answers I heard in Sunday school. They are a childish frame of reference on spirituality and religion and offer no answers beyond the usual talking points of most Christians™. These are the exact same "answers" most of us have heard and at times even parroted. Yet, you act as though they are some Earth shattering truth when in fact it's really rather juvenile and absurd. Such a presumptuous attitude is often a hallmark of so called "enlightened" people such as yourself. This guy said he had "answers" just like you and yet you both are on the same level of half-baked, naive, simpleminded and imbecilic "spiritual revelations". I can't even find the words to quantify the stupidity of coming on to an Ex-Christian forum and imparting these "truths". It is the equivalent of going on to an automotive mechanics forum and saying cars have rubber tires and that no one else understands how these rubber tires work but you. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/43363-forced-out-of-religion/page__p__631987__hl__voiceofgod__fromsearch__1#entry631987 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Razbeerishlee sega? That's Bulgarian for "Do You Understand Now?" Näe. Du är knäpp och allt du säger låter som rappakalja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 You're missing the point ... all of my "words and arguments and concepts" are from the Bible. Which are words, arguements, and concepts from men. And furthermore, how you read and understand those is with your reasoning mind, which you say get's in the way of spirituality. I agree. It's blatantly obvious here. Because, being human, I began by being like all humans ... a spiritual idiot. I would say spiritually ignorant. Having a set of beliefs does not make you spiritual. Thinking you have some truth from something someone else told you is not spirituality either. How are you spiritually aware. Explain how YOU see the world, not how to believe properly. How can anyone claim to know about SPIRITUAL stuff unless they're convinced God told them the stuff? The fact you ask this says you don't understand. That state of being a "spiritual idiot" as you put it seems to be just a concept to you, not something you understand. You substitute your beliefs for actual realization and call that spiritual. HUH? HOW? Please explain. Look within. Find what is within you. Find your true nature, not the one that lashes out in anger, ego trips, substitute gods in the form of religion, etc. Razbeerishlee sega? That's Bulgarian for "Do You Understand Now?" Anlayormusiniz? That's Turkish for "Do you understand?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 The whole "revelation over rational reason" ... Totally ridiculous and nonsensical, just like a revelation over reason should be. The Christian God doesn't make sense because he's not supposed to make sense. He's supposed to be a ludicrous idea. You've stumbled onto some truth here. God gave up on free-will humans to do the choosing of what He expects/demands! We've covered this ... A&E and His "chosen people" all failed quite miserably. Actually, the only ones of us who satisfied Him were some of His prophets. So, enter the "new covenant" ... this time God will do the choosing! He presented a gospel full of "foolishness". Then he predestined, chose, called, etc. some to believe it, and laughed at all the rest. The gruesome truth is explained in 1 Corinthians Chapter 1. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Razbeerishlee sega? That's Bulgarian for "Do You Understand Now?" You are ignorant. That's English for, "You are ignorant". 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I digress, don't want to be accused of hijacking. Rod understands what I am saying, but is too egotistical or too spiritual to respond....I can't figure out which. Why are you so worried about me and what I have to say about anything? Basically Rod, you were extremely offensive when you said I was "now worthy to visit/debate with"....and you really haven't changed. Your views are pretty much in conflict within their own substance.....take for example today's thought, that having to practice what you practice is not natural ownership as I believe you espouse. So the lack of correlation along with the condescension puts you in line for being as large an asshole as my dear old dad once was. I kinda live for these moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 You've stumbled onto some truth here. God gave up on free-will humans to do the choosing of what He expects/demands! We've covered this ... A&E and His "chosen people" all failed quite miserably. Yes, which shows that failure is the same as perfection. God wanted the failure. Actually, the only ones of us who satisfied Him were some of His prophets. Sounds like you're putting yourself in the seat of God's prophets. Wow... I didn't expect to have a real prophet here! So, enter the "new covenant" ... this time God will do the choosing! I did it many times over. I gave myself to the "new covenant" several times during my lifetime. Still, I never saw, heard, realized, experienced, or saw any evidence of God anywhere. But today, I have realized that everything that exists is God. Nature, reality, humans, animals, life, biosphere, cosmos... all of it... everything is God. The Christian version of God is a heretic version of the real God. You're preaching a blasphemous message, prophet. He presented a gospel full of "foolishness". Then he predestined, chose, called, etc. some to believe it, and laughed at all the rest. So God predestined and picked those who would believe because that's how free will works??? Why do you even try to present any argument at all? If the argument is self-contradictory, just don't even use it. You're trying to use arguments, and it fails. Either belief in God is based on revelation and your words are not needed, or you use words and arguments and revelation is not needed. You can't have both. The gruesome truth is explained in 1 Corinthians Chapter 1. Enjoy. That's your belief. And you have the right to have that belief. But I think you're just making a fool out of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 ... I'm trying to be blunt in explaining the powerful revelation that I have about this truth... Uh-oh. It seems yet another prophet has wandered into our midst. Pay proper respect, people. (Of course, it might require a move into the Lion's Den to really do it properly.) Almighty God can give a "revelation" to the biggest idiot you've ever known. He can do anything He wishes to do (within reason). Thought I'd throw your favorite word in there. But, it's difficult for Him to deal with humans because He has given them free will in everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Almighty God can give a "revelation" to the biggest idiot you've ever known. He can do anything He wishes to do (within reason). Why? Why can he only do things within reason? What is "within reason" when it comes to wishes? Thought I'd throw your favorite word in there. But, it's difficult for Him to deal with humans because He has given them free will in everything. Except when he decides (predestined) which ones would become believers or not. Since he decided that the fall of man and the faulty decisions to be made, then free will is overridden in those instances. So no, there would not be "free will in everything." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I digress, don't want to be accused of hijacking. Rod understands what I am saying, but is too egotistical or too spiritual to respond....I can't figure out which. Why are you so worried about me and what I have to say about anything? Basically Rod, you were extremely offensive when you said I was "now worthy to visit/debate with"....and you really haven't changed. Your views are pretty much in conflict within their own substance.....take for example today's thought, that having to practice what you practice is not natural ownership as I believe you espouse. So the lack of correlation along with the condescension puts you in line for being as large an asshole as my dear old dad once was. I kinda live for these moments. ah so the whole thing is about YOUR daddy issues...gotcha. just put me on ignore like I did you, or stalk me thread to thread calling me a hypocrite or an asshole whenever you get an opportunity. whatever makes you feel like you are having your revenge. but after this, i won't be participating. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I digress, don't want to be accused of hijacking. Rod understands what I am saying, but is too egotistical or too spiritual to respond....I can't figure out which. Why are you so worried about me and what I have to say about anything? Basically Rod, you were extremely offensive when you said I was "now worthy to visit/debate with"....and you really haven't changed. Your views are pretty much in conflict within their own substance.....take for example today's thought, that having to practice what you practice is not natural ownership as I believe you espouse. So the lack of correlation along with the condescension puts you in line for being as large an asshole as my dear old dad once was. I kinda live for these moments. ah so the whole thing is about YOUR daddy issues...gotcha. just put me on ignore like I did you, or stalk me thread to thread calling me a hypocrite or an asshole whenever you get an opportunity. whatever makes you feel like you are having your revenge. but after this, i won't be participating. No, not really, it's you being a hypocrite to this guy when you preach "married to the universe Void".... Edit: I was just "boldly interjecting" like you did earlier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Tell me something new then. Or prove to me that God reveals things to you. For instance. ask God the names of my kids. Also, ask God why I don't believe anymore and tell me what he told you. God tells His people what He wants to tell them. Maybe He will tell me these things. I can share the experience of my first of my 9 trips to Bulgaria as an evangelist in 1994. It falls into the bold challenge in bold above. Of course, proof that it's all true must come from God, and that ain't a-gonna happen, right? So, why waste our time? Or you could search out the thousands of miracles each day on the mission field. But, they wouldn't be believed either, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Tell me something new then. Or prove to me that God reveals things to you. For instance. ask God the names of my kids. Also, ask God why I don't believe anymore and tell me what he told you. God tells His people what He wants to tell them. Maybe He will tell me these things. I can share the experience of my first of my 9 trips to Bulgaria as an evangelist in 1994. How does telling me about yourself help me see God's revelation through you? You mean that you're so fabulous and fantastic in all aspects of life that I will be blown away with your awesomeness? It falls into the bold challenge in bold above. But fails the part not in bold. Of course, proof that it's all true must come from God, and that ain't a-gonna happen, right? So, why waste our time? Ah. Chicken style. Since you know that God can't tell you anything about me, you circumvented it by suggesting that you tell me about your life story, and as such it won't impress me much, so therefore it's useless. I knew it. You're not from God. And you have no revelations from God. You are just another human being with some delusional ideas about yourself being a prophet. Too bad. Or you could search out the thousands of miracles each day on the mission field. I've been in the mission field... and I know about the exaggerations and half-lies that comes out from the mouths of the "prophets." But, they wouldn't be believed either, right? Because I know how it works. You're just fooling yourself into believing that it's all true. It's the worst kind of prison a person can make for himself. A prison in their own mind. I thought I was a prophet too... --- I'm going to make it really simple for you. Here's the first thing you have to do to prove to me that you have some "revelation" phone line to God. Forget my kids' names. Just tell me the colors of my pants and shirt. Simple. God knows. You talk to him, and he talks to you. No reasoning. No arguments. No personal life stories. Just a few simple words to show that you got something going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScifiChick Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 ... I'm trying to be blunt in explaining the powerful revelation that I have about this truth... Uh-oh. It seems yet another prophet has wandered into our midst. Pay proper respect, people. (Of course, it might require a move into the Lion's Den to really do it properly.) Almighty God can give a "revelation" to the biggest idiot you've ever known. He can do anything He wishes to do (within reason). Thought I'd throw your favorite word in there. But, it's difficult for Him to deal with humans because He has given them free will in everything. How is having a choice between following your god or being tortured eternally free will exactly? And where is the love in a god that tortures eternally for a temporal crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Seems my fundie detector is still calibrated and working 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 Almighty God can give a "revelation" to the biggest idiot you've ever known. He can do anything He wishes to do (within reason). Why? Why can he only do things within reason? What is "within reason" when it comes to wishes? God may wish Jack to be an evangelist, but it's Jack's free will that decides the issue. But, it's difficult for Him to deal with humans because He has given them free will in everything. Except when he decides (predestined) which ones would become believers or not. Since he decided that the fall of man and the faulty decisions to be made, then free will is overridden in those instances. So no, there would not be "free will in everything." God sees who wants to be His before He chooses and calls them. Man has free will, and so does God (may I say, in every issue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 How is having a choice between following your god, or being tortured eternally, free will exactly? And where is the love in a god that tortures eternally for a temporal crime? You have the free will to overcome your sinful nature, and go after God with all your heart and soul. For this was the reason for creating man. But, the broken/cracked pots you create are good for nothing except the garbage. God has to see something in your heart that causes Him to choose you. People who exercise their free will to NOT do this, go in the garbage dump. But, we can state the truth and just say they are separated from God for all of eternity. Is that more palatible? God has demonstrated His love for us many times in trying to save us. But, all of this love and grace doesn't last forever. I believe there are different levels of heaven and hell; some levels don't have torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 God may wish Jack to be an evangelist, but it's Jack's free will that decides the issue. So "within reason" is really "within God's wish." Got it. God sees who wants to be His before He chooses and calls them. Man has free will, and so does God (may I say, in every issue). It doesn't matter if God has free will or not. Predestination (your word) means that something will happen, regardless of the person's will. There's no full or unobstructed free will in predestination. You could have what you could call "localized" options where you can choose, but if something is determined to be, then your choices will not undo that final cause. In other words, if it is already determined that I'm going to Hell and you're going to sit on Jesus's right side, then your words and my choices will not change that. (But it hinges on the idea that any of your fantasies are true, which I don't think they are.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Razbeerishlee sega? That's Bulgarian for "Do You Understand Now?" Näe. Du är knäpp och allt du säger låter som rappakalja. Я понимаю, наш новый писатель идиот Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Tell me something new then. Or prove to me that God reveals things to you. For instance. ask God the names of my kids. Also, ask God why I don't believe anymore and tell me what he told you. God tells His people what He wants to tell them. Maybe He will tell me these things. I can share the experience of my first of my 9 trips to Bulgaria as an evangelist in 1994. It falls into the bold challenge in bold above. Of course, proof that it's all true must come from God, and that ain't a-gonna happen, right? So, why waste our time? Or you could search out the thousands of miracles each day on the mission field. But, they wouldn't be believed either, right? Oh, so you're one of the morons responsible for spreading a filthy mind disease that has now captured a good portion of the Bulgarian population as I understand it. Why don't you come up here and try Russia? You're insipid message is being shrugged off by the good people up here. God's probably pissed at your poor showing. He'll probably kick you to the curb with all the other goats. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScifiChick Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 How is having a choice between following your god, or being tortured eternally, free will exactly? And where is the love in a god that tortures eternally for a temporal crime? You have the free will to overcome your sinful nature, and go after God with all your heart and soul. For this was the reason for creating man. But, the broken/cracked pots you create are good for nothing except the garbage. God has to see something in your heart that causes Him to choose you. People who exercise their free will to NOT do this, go in the garbage dump. But, we can state the truth and just say they are separated from God for all of eternity. Is that more palatible? God has demonstrated His love for us many times in trying to save us. But, all of this love and grace doesn't last forever. I believe there are different levels of heaven and hell; some levels don't have torture. Luckily, I don't have a sinful nature. I was created by my parents, not God. I am not creating broken/cracked pots and I am not garbage. I was raised on this kind of abuse and I have no patience for it any longer. I will not even pretend to believe that the hatred you are spouting falls under any category of love. God has NEVER demonstrated any love for me. If this all powerful God feels the need to save us, surely he can come up with something better than blood sacrifice and hearsay. As for your beliefs about the different levels of heaven and hell - go for it. Christians make shit up all the time and call it revelation from God, all while dismissing anything rational as "garbage". All I can say is that I knew your so-called Truth, and now I have purposefully and wonderfully turned my back on it, so there's no hope for me. God obviously didn't see anything in me to cause him to choose me. Of course, he's an imaginary made up creature, so this is all a moot point anyway. I am a good, wonderful human being, and I don't need any validation from the likes of your disgusting religion. I'll thank you not to scare the other people on this site who are recovering from this insidious evil garbage. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 If God was going to send me to hell for not believing in him, he would certainly do a better job of explaining himself so a rational being wouldn't come to a conclusion that he is full of shit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZain Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 God sees who wants to be His before He chooses and calls them.Man has free will, and so does God (may I say, in every issue). It doesn't matter if God has free will or not. Predestination (your word) means that something will happen, regardless of the person's will. There's no full or unobstructed free will in predestination. You could have what you could call "localized" options where you can choose, but if something is determined to be, then your choices will not undo that final cause. In other words, if it is already determined that I'm going to Hell and you're going to sit on Jesus's right side, then your words and my choices will not change that. (But it hinges on the idea that any of your fantasies are true, which I don't think they are.) God is everywhere ... He knows and sees everything (past, present, future) “For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth” (2 Chronicles 16:9) “I make known the end from the beginning … and what is still to come” (Isaiah 46:10) “I am … the Beginning and the End, says the Lord” (Revelation 1:8, 21:6, 22:13) More: Job 37:16; Psalm 90:4, 147:5; Proverbs 15:3; Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20 This is the key to everything: God has seen all of man’s history, his free-will choices, etc. God knows peoples’ hearts, thoughts, motives, etc. “… the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chronicles 28:9). “I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revel. 2:23) More: 1 Samuel 16:7, 1 Kings 8:39, Psalm 44:21, Proverbs 20:27, Jeremiah 17:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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