The Cult Test

[Sissi71]

Yeah, and they don't hate homosexuals! Yeah right!

 

I never understood this " You must love everyone just like God does" I mean, how can I love everyone? There are certainly people who I can't stand cause I dont like their character or they are totally different from me. Why do I have to like them? If I like everyone that means that I have no character and no personality. Their answer will be: " You have to pray to God to like them!" Ridiculous.

 

 

Should it mean that we would have to love Hitler or Kadhafi ???

Yeah, and they don't hate homosexuals! Yeah right!

 

I never understood this " You must love everyone just like God does" I mean, how can I love everyone? There are certainly people who I can't stand cause I dont like their character or they are totally different from me. Why do I have to like them? If I like everyone that means that I have no character and no personality. Their answer will be: " You have to pray to God to like them!" Ridiculous.

 

I love how Christians justify their hatred by saying that the Bible calls it an "abomination." If this is the case, they should be treating most of the people on earth the same way they treat homosexuals. Mostly this includes lying and justifying that which is wicked (which already sounds exactly like Christians) and a whole list of food included in Leviticus 11. Abomination is a word used to describe several things apart from homosexuality.

 

I just watched a documentary yesterday about how Fundies misinterpret the Bible and use it for their own means to alienate groups they dislike:

 

http://topdocumentar...le-tells-me-so/

 

It must really by a new life when an homosexual go out of a cult and can lives his sexual life like he wants. Well probably that Jesus was homosexual surrounded by his 12 disciples !!

 

I remember in some churches they was a program called "living water" for people dealing with homosexuality. The author, Andrew Comiskey was an ex-homosexual and pretends having been healed of homosexuality and in fact every time he writes a book he has some struggles....that means that God does not heal at all.

[London]

Yeah, and they don't hate homosexuals! Yeah right!

 

I never understood this " You must love everyone just like God does" I mean, how can I love everyone? There are certainly people who I can't stand cause I dont like their character or they are totally different from me. Why do I have to like them? If I like everyone that means that I have no character and no personality. Their answer will be: " You have to pray to God to like them!" Ridiculous.

 

And if you think about how god loves his people, he flooded the earth and killed everyone except who noah had on that boat. So if we follow god's way most people on earth should be dead.

 

Also this is a great website http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm

 

Here is a quote

The term "homosexual" dates from the late 19^th century, when human sexuality first began to be studied as a science.

 

 

There is no term that means homosexual orientation in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts of the Bible. The authors of the Bible did not understand sexual orientation and thus did not write about it. Thus, when you see one of these words in an English translation of the Bible, it is important to dig deeper and find what the original Hebrew or Greek text really means.

[Sunny49]

Hmm, that's interesting....but this subject is way to complicated. In ancient Rome, as far as I know, they didn't have a definition of a homosexual, because they were al practically bisexual. Homosexual behaviour wasn't condemned because it was practically just casual, there were no homosexuasl in today's sense of the word....it wasn't a sexual orientation, but just "fun". I think.

[London]

Remember xianity is a cult. I believe all the rules & stories were made up to control people. All the "morality" was inflicted to remove human individuality. If you make things that were commonplace a big no no, and remove people's happiness only to replace it with the (false) promise of eternal life and joy, you can control people.

 

Women were the leaders in many cultures, highly regarded and respected. Then xianity made women property and men took over. The xian god is assumed to be male. It's all about control. That's why the fundies vote for anyone who pretends to support their view. Make them sheep, make them follow, you have control.

[lunaticheathen]

 

The individual members of the cult are told that they are inherently small, weak, stupid, ignorant, and sinful. Cult members are routinely criticized, shamed, ridiculed, discounted, diminished, and told in dozens of ways that they are not good enough.

 

Check. "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a *wretch* like me." I am ignorant of whether guilt, shame, and self-ridicule is Biblical (perhaps so. No scriptures pop into my head at the moment, though. Would I John Chapter 2 be an example)?, but it is a fully active element within Christian culture. From the pulpit, we are told that we are nothing without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, that we are deserving of eternal flame. Our imperfections are not celebrated as being a part of being human. No, human nature and imperfections are condemned as being not of god, even though human perfection is not and never will be attainable. These are constant themes in sermons and hymn. And throughout history, people have participated in masochistic ascetic practices like fasting and self-flagellation ("The mortification of the flesh") to punish our physical bodies or humble ourselves before god. The spirit is willing, but the flesh... the flesh is so weak.

Hating yourself is the xian way to deal with things.

 

It seems that I learned this so well that I keep falling back into it even though I've been out for a long time.

 

This this this. This is what has stuck in my head, even after reaching a point of not believing in or fearing hell, Abraham's god, or seeking Jesus' approval. The self-loathing just continued, probably augmented by my depression, but ye gods, I think it's the worst and most pernicious thing about modern evangelical christianity. I have to stop myself from getting violent at times if I hear too much "worm theology" spouted. This is what left a mark on me, and I still fight it. I think it's abuse to tell children and teens this sort of shit. It feels like emotional abuse to me.

 

 

It has always annoyed me when people use the "hate the sin, not the sinner" line.

That's like saying:

You are my best friend in the whole world and I totally love you but... I cannot stand anything you say or do. Your opinions are wrong, you're not funny, or good looking and frankly no one really likes you. But that's ok because god loves you and so do I.

 

That makes zero sense to me. And it just proves to me that they want people in the cult in large numbers. It's ok if no one likes them, because abuse is common practice and lies are favored over truth.

 

This is like "separate but equal." It's impossible in practice. It makes the bigots feel better about being bigots.

[Sunny49]

Remember xianity is a cult. I believe all the rules & stories were made up to control people. All the "morality" was inflicted to remove human individuality.

 

I don't really agree with this. Morality is necesary for a healthy society. Christians didn't make up morality, morality is common sense. But, I think they use it to attract people and to put our defenses down. If we think they are good and moral, we will believe everything they say.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Hating yourself is the xian way to deal with things.

 

It seems that I learned this so well that I keep falling back into it even though I've been out for a long time.

 

This this this. This is what has stuck in my head, even after reaching a point of not believing in or fearing hell, Abraham's god, or seeking Jesus' approval. The self-loathing just continued, probably augmented by my depression, but ye gods, I think it's the worst and most pernicious thing about modern evangelical christianity. I have to stop myself from getting violent at times if I hear too much "worm theology" spouted. This is what left a mark on me, and I still fight it. I think it's abuse to tell children and teens this sort of shit. It feels like emotional abuse to me.

What do you think about a thread just for this stuff?

[WMDKitty]

Dear all,

 

here is a link regarding points in a cult but it also fit with biblical brainwashing : you cannot doubt about the bible, you cannot doubt about God, etc...., don't use your critical mind, but believe....something most of all faced in our former christian life..

Well for me my guru was Jesus. if you read the bible and compare with the behaviour of a guru Jesus had the characteristics. For example, people had to believe in him or to go hell, he rebuked Thomas because he was doubting about resurrection and Jesus said " blessed are those who have not seen and yet have." This is the big problem : you have no right to criticize, you must believe and let all rationality behind you when we have been created with the need of understanding, accepting what we can prove. You must not listen to your emotion and your feeling BUT believe !....when I think about all this stuff it's just crazy. I am wondering how I once believed that for so many years....Mind control is probably the answer ...

 

Sounds a lot like AA...

[London]

Remember xianity is a cult. I believe all the rules & stories were made up to control people. All the "morality" was inflicted to remove human individuality.

 

I don't really agree with this. Morality is necesary for a healthy society. Christians didn't make up morality, morality is common sense. But, I think they use it to attract people and to put our defenses down. If we think they are good and moral, we will believe everything they say.

 

Sunny, I agree we as humans need to have some morals. But we as humans do have an idea of right & wrong naturally. I am talking about the imposed "morals", things the church decided were wrong because they wanted control of our minds and lives, like sex.

Sex is a naturally occuring physical and emotional act. To regulate that by making it "taboo" a "sin" is an imposed "morality". And how many xians in the public eye have been in sex scandals? They say they are moral, but the bible allows slave ownership, that's not moral. I don't need a religion or a law to tell me that killing another human being is wrong.

Does that clear up what I meant any better?

[London]

It feels like emotional abuse to me.

 

 

This is like "separate but equal." It's impossible in practice. It makes the bigots feel better about being bigots.

 

It IS abuse. If god loved any of his followers he would be making them happy, not acting like hitler, requiring unquestioning devotion.

 

"Seperate but equal" is just a catch 22. They may as well say "we all love you... NOT!!!" It really means that they will only let you live if you do gods work, spread the cult and live an unhappy lonely life. If you have sex and be happy, we kill you. It's like the mean "popular" kids who decide to not be mean to the geeky kids for one day.

In the end, us geeks don't trust the hateful liars.

"Seperate but equal" always reminds me of "blacks at the back of the bus". It just really burns me and I really get a Rosa Parks attitude "fuck you, I'll sit where I want." We all need to be a Rosa Parks. Basically she was saying "I'm a human, treat me like one."

[Sunny49]

 

Does that clear up what I meant any better?

 

Yes! I agree with you.

 

Speaking of sex, two years after I had this trauma I was completely asexual! Their sexual views are very unhealthy! Especially the doctrine that fantasies are sin. I read somewhere that evan when a couple is married their sex life is very regulated by religion, like there are approved and condemned positions in sex! They evan regulate how often a married couple must have sex! I mean this is sick!! I just can't digest this idea of sex as a "marriage duty". Once I asked a very patriarchal guy, why is this and he said it's because women tend to manipulate men with refusing to have sex with them. So, it's women's fault again!

I think nothing regarding sex is ethically wrong, unless it's forced of course. But, I think there is healthy and unhealthy sex. There is a great website providing information about this and I think every person should read it. Here's the link:

http://www.healthysex.com/page/home

 

Do you think this is what Church wanted to tell us?

[London]

In my experience sex is just a bad thing in the eyes of the church. The word "healthy" will never come into the vocabulary of the church.

I agree that everyone should learn about sex and how to have a healthy sex life. But the church and Americans are so anti-education that we have, as a result, way too much sexual abuse, unwanted children, and crazy ideas about sex.

There is nothing wrong with sex, there is everything wrong with the misinformation about sex.

One thing the cult forbids is to educate yourself about the real world. Everyone should read about all kinds of sexual behaviors. To be fully educated is a very powerful thing. And I would give that advice for any subject, not just sex.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

What does actually "turn the other cheek" mean?

I have always been taught that it means, Don't stoop to the other person's level, choose to be better than the negative behavior.

Yes, I agree with this, but isn't it cult-language? They interpret it this way, but I think it means:" Let other people abuse you, cause that's how you show you are a good person.You are a bad person it you fight for yourself. Maybe you will suffer in this life, but in other you will have great rewards." That's what it means to me.

You know, this is a good question. In a sense I was taught both. It was better not to stoop to the other person's behavior and it was far better to suffer and return kindness than to fight back. The ultimate role model to look up to was of course a supposedly innocent person who suffered and even died unfairly, "yet he did not open his mouth."

 

I never understood this " You must love everyone just like God does" I mean, how can I love everyone? There are certainly people who I can't stand cause I dont like their character or they are totally different from me. Why do I have to like them? If I like everyone that means that I have no character and no personality. Their answer will be: " You have to pray to God to like them!" Ridiculous.

I took that to mean that you should put yourself aside and be able to see the good in them and love them regardless of your (presumed petty) personal feelings for them. In a way I think there is something to this, though like anything it can be taken too far. I remember as a child trying to piously conjure up feelings of love for everyone who had ever existed, but got stuck for a while on whether I should love evil people or beings (like Satan).

 

I am not sure what you mean about having no character or personality if you try to do this, though.

[Sunny49]

[

I am not sure what you mean about having no character or personality if you try to do this, though.

 

Well, I think having a personality means I have my own likes and dislikes. I like chocolate, someone else likes vanilla, I like r'n'b someone else likes country, I like quiet people, someone else likes outgoing people, I like reading someone else likes travelling (I don't say this things neceserally exclude themselves, it's just an example). See, that is personality. If I like everything and everyone than I don't have personality, in my opinion. If I say I like everyone that means I'm hypocritical because it's practically impossible to like everyone. If a person would tell me that she loves everyone I would think that she or he doesn't have his own opinion. I need to not like something or someone to define myself. That's what I think.

 

A concrete example. I see you like ecology and I guess biology? I never liked biology, I'm more an artistic kind of person. But, if I would try to love biology, I would not be me anymore.

[Sunny49]

In my experience sex is just a bad thing in the eyes of the church. The word "healthy" will never come into the vocabulary of the church.

I agree that everyone should learn about sex and how to have a healthy sex life. But the church and Americans are so anti-education that we have, as a result, way too much sexual abuse, unwanted children, and crazy ideas about sex.

There is nothing wrong with sex, there is everything wrong with the misinformation about sex.

One thing the cult forbids is to educate yourself about the real world. Everyone should read about all kinds of sexual behaviors. To be fully educated is a very powerful thing. And I would give that advice for any subject, not just sex.

 

Yes, and most people learn about it through the media who give a totally twisted view on sexuallity. These are just two extremities.

[Suzy]

[

I am not sure what you mean about having no character or personality if you try to do this, though.

 

Well, I think having a personality means I have my own likes and dislikes. I like chocolate, someone else likes vanilla, I like r'n'b someone else likes country, I like quiet people, someone else likes outgoing people, I like reading someone else likes travelling (I don't say this things neceserally exclude themselves, it's just an example). See, that is personality. If I like everything and everyone than I don't have personality, in my opinion. If I say I like everyone that means I'm hypocritical because it's practically impossible to like everyone. If a person would tell me that she loves everyone I would think that she or he doesn't have his own opinion. I need to not like something or someone to define myself. That's what I think.

 

A concrete example. I see you like ecology and I guess biology? I never liked biology, I'm more an artistic kind of person. But, if I would try to love biology, I would not be me anymore.

 

Yeah, and Christianity basically requires you to give up yourself for the church. At least the fundamentalist types which I used to be a member of. It's not just that you are required to love everyone, it's that you had to like and dislike certain things. I looked around in church and I saw all the girls dress the same, have the same hairstyle, all the people have the same thoughts, same opinions about everything (which was of course the opinion that the pastor held) from politics to social issues. I was disgusted. I felt like the church was making us clones - and it did! I repressed so much of my own personality, of my own interests for so long!

[Sunny49]

Yes, me too! And I'm disgusted by their "holy" faking. They pretend to be so holy and good, but it's not genuine it's a mask. It's sooo hypocritical! Yuk! This "holiness" is also ruining personality. Noone can naturally be so good, everyone has flaws, if I try to be "holy" then I'm also not being myself. My flaws are my personality. I'm proud of them!

[MultifariousBirdLady]

[

I am not sure what you mean about having no character or personality if you try to do this, though.

 

Well, I think having a personality means I have my own likes and dislikes. I like chocolate, someone else likes vanilla, I like r'n'b someone else likes country, I like quiet people, someone else likes outgoing people, I like reading someone else likes travelling (I don't say this things neceserally exclude themselves, it's just an example). See, that is personality. If I like everything and everyone than I don't have personality, in my opinion. If I say I like everyone that means I'm hypocritical because it's practically impossible to like everyone. If a person would tell me that she loves everyone I would think that she or he doesn't have his own opinion. I need to not like something or someone to define myself. That's what I think.

 

A concrete example. I see you like ecology and I guess biology? I never liked biology, I'm more an artistic kind of person. But, if I would try to love biology, I would not be me anymore.

Hmm... I dunno. In the Christian groups I was involved with, people did have their own personalities along those lines. Nobody was expected to like the same things, have the same interests, etc. In fact, different interests and abilities were sometimes likened to different "fruits of the spirit" given to different people by God. The diversity (in that sense) was thought to enrich the group as a whole.

 

What you're talking about with respect to "loving everyone" perhaps had a slightly different twist for you than it did in the groups I was in, I think. You could "love someone" without hanging out with them too much, for example. If you didn't share interests with them, why would you?

[Sissi71]

Exactly London. I can compare the Jesus or God in the bible to a Hitler. Bible is dictatorship.

[Sunny49]

[

I am not sure what you mean about having no character or personality if you try to do this, though.

 

Well, I think having a personality means I have my own likes and dislikes. I like chocolate, someone else likes vanilla, I like r'n'b someone else likes country, I like quiet people, someone else likes outgoing people, I like reading someone else likes travelling (I don't say this things neceserally exclude themselves, it's just an example). See, that is personality. If I like everything and everyone than I don't have personality, in my opinion. If I say I like everyone that means I'm hypocritical because it's practically impossible to like everyone. If a person would tell me that she loves everyone I would think that she or he doesn't have his own opinion. I need to not like something or someone to define myself. That's what I think.

 

A concrete example. I see you like ecology and I guess biology? I never liked biology, I'm more an artistic kind of person. But, if I would try to love biology, I would not be me anymore.

Hmm... I dunno. In the Christian groups I was involved with, people did have their own personalities along those lines. Nobody was expected to like the same things, have the same interests, etc. In fact, different interests and abilities were sometimes likened to different "fruits of the spirit" given to different people by God. The diversity (in that sense) was thought to enrich the group as a whole.

 

What you're talking about with respect to "loving everyone" perhaps had a slightly different twist for you than it did in the groups I was in, I think. You could "love someone" without hanging out with them too much, for example. If you didn't share interests with them, why would you?

 

No, I was just giving an example. They didn't tell us to have the same interests. I was just trying to show what personality means to me and how I don't think we should love everyone. We should respect everybody but I don't think we should love everybody, cause it's impossible and useless, in my opinion.

[Suzy]

Yes, me too! And I'm disgusted by their "holy" faking. They pretend to be so holy and good, but it's not genuine it's a mask. It's sooo hypocritical! Yuk! This "holiness" is also ruining personality. Noone can naturally be so good, everyone has flaws, if I try to be "holy" then I'm also not being myself. My flaws are my personality. I'm proud of them!

 

 

Not only pretending to be "holy" but also pretending to be happy all the time. I hate that. I hate that you weren't supposed to feel down sometimes. Everybody always had to show himself/herself happy all the time, since you had to project an image outside to the world.

[Suzy]

[

I am not sure what you mean about having no character or personality if you try to do this, though.

 

Well, I think having a personality means I have my own likes and dislikes. I like chocolate, someone else likes vanilla, I like r'n'b someone else likes country, I like quiet people, someone else likes outgoing people, I like reading someone else likes travelling (I don't say this things neceserally exclude themselves, it's just an example). See, that is personality. If I like everything and everyone than I don't have personality, in my opinion. If I say I like everyone that means I'm hypocritical because it's practically impossible to like everyone. If a person would tell me that she loves everyone I would think that she or he doesn't have his own opinion. I need to not like something or someone to define myself. That's what I think.

 

A concrete example. I see you like ecology and I guess biology? I never liked biology, I'm more an artistic kind of person. But, if I would try to love biology, I would not be me anymore.

Hmm... I dunno. In the Christian groups I was involved with, people did have their own personalities along those lines. Nobody was expected to like the same things, have the same interests, etc. In fact, different interests and abilities were sometimes likened to different "fruits of the spirit" given to different people by God. The diversity (in that sense) was thought to enrich the group as a whole.

 

What you're talking about with respect to "loving everyone" perhaps had a slightly different twist for you than it did in the groups I was in, I think. You could "love someone" without hanging out with them too much, for example. If you didn't share interests with them, why would you?

 

I think it also depends on what your interests were initially. Mine was astronomy and cosmology, for example. But I had to give that up because of course you couldn't say and believe in a fundy church that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, among others. So I just gave that interest up. I'm trying to make up for it and catch up now. Also to like secular pop stars was considered idoltary. So I threw away my records of my favorite artists. Again I gave up a piece of myself. And of course, other people gave up other things. So basically it drives you in a place where people's interests, even if they don't necessarily become the same, but they converge because as a fundamentalist Christian there's a limited number of interests you can choose from and you cannot be "worldly". Basically, the best is if your only interest is the Bible and the church.

 

Also it's not necessarily that you were expected to behave a certain way but people did start to behave a certain way which to me at least looked like they were becoming clones. Maybe it was not "expected", yet their behavior rubbed off on each other. They dressed the same, they had the same vocabulary etc. I felt like I was supposed to be a certain type of person who I was not.

[Sunny49]

Oh, yes, this fake holy and fake happy really annoys me. And this self righteous attitude: "Come and join us and then you'll be fake happy like us!" Yuk.

 

"Also it's not necessarily that you were expected to behave a certain way but people did start to behave a certain way which to me at least looked like they were becoming clones. Maybe it was not "expected", yet their behavior rubbed off on each other. They dressed the same, they had the same vocabulary etc. I felt like I was supposed to be a certain type of person who I was not. "

 

Yeah, this happend to me too. It seemed like they begin to have the same tone of voice, they spoke in the same way. I also couldn't be like this. I mean I could have, but I was so disgusted by that behaviour that I just wanted to run away. I felt like I had to suppress my true self all the time in order to be accepted. Awful. How long have you been with them?

 

Also, I have noticed that many artists, for example musicians, make great work and are very talented but the moment they convert or "find God" as they say, they somehow lose their talent and start creating rubbish. Have you notice that? Isn't this a clear sign of personality destruction?

[MultifariousBirdLady]

No, I was just giving an example. They didn't tell us to have the same interests. I was just trying to show what personality means to me and how I don't think we should love everyone. We should respect everybody but I don't think we should love everybody, cause it's impossible and useless, in my opinion.

OK, I have heard some people occasionally say they felt pressured to conform somewhat on their interests so I wondered.

I still wonder if the "love" they were talking about in the groups I was with is different than what you mentioned. You say we should respect everyone and can do this without losing our personalities... I think their view is somewhat similar but they feel this way about love... love being care and concern for others (which at times took infuriating forms).

 

Also it's not necessarily that you were expected to behave a certain way but people did start to behave a certain way which to me at least looked like they were becoming clones. Maybe it was not "expected", yet their behavior rubbed off on each other. They dressed the same, they had the same vocabulary etc. I felt like I was supposed to be a certain type of person who I was not.

You're right about this. This can happen very innocently and unintentionally just by "rubbing off" as you mention.

[ConureDelSol]

 

Does that clear up what I meant any better?

 

Yes! I agree with you.

 

Speaking of sex, two years after I had this trauma I was completely asexual! Their sexual views are very unhealthy! Especially the doctrine that fantasies are sin. I read somewhere that evan when a couple is married their sex life is very regulated by religion, like there are approved and condemned positions in sex! They evan regulate how often a married couple must have sex! I mean this is sick!! I just can't digest this idea of sex as a "marriage duty". Once I asked a very patriarchal guy, why is this and he said it's because women tend to manipulate men with refusing to have sex with them. So, it's women's fault again!

I think nothing regarding sex is ethically wrong, unless it's forced of course. But, I think there is healthy and unhealthy sex. There is a great website providing information about this and I think every person should read it. Here's the link:

http://www.healthysex.com/page/home

 

Do you think this is what Church wanted to tell us?

 

I am a panromantic asexual (meaning that I crave romantic companionship regardless of gender, but I don't feel a need or desire to have sex) and I know for a fact that the church helped make me this way. I can't have a normal relationship with anyone because of this.

 

I'm hoping one day I'll be able to grow out of this, since I do want to start a family eventually. I have to say, for a religion that claims to encourage family it sure has had the complete opposite effect on me.

 

My dad is vehemently against the whole idea of Planned Parenthood teaching safe sex and such in schools. He seems to think that they're trying to make twelve year-olds boink each other, when it's really just informing the children of how everything works. I have heard stories of people who had sex for the first time and ended up pregnant because they had no idea how the whole baby thing worked. Then, they feel obligated to get married and end up having a miserable relationship. Gotta love ignorance.