Dumbest Of Fundies

[midniterider]

This is true but science is also turning into a religion in it's own right for some. Many people can't comprehend that science is a method of inquiry. It is a process and it is fallible. Theories are made to be overturned by other theories or changing paradigms. No truth is set in stone. And YET... I've seen many behave as if science is some monolithic structure.

 

This is a strawman. I've seen virtually no one worship science. Science is a process of understanding and like it or not, it's the only process we have that helps us discover and understand the world we live in. The alternative is to just make up shit or take stabs in the dark hoping you hit a target.

 

I wouldn't say science has become a religion but scientists hold science in very high esteem. I think scientists are hesitant to just jettison prevailing mainstream thought or current theories in favor of new competing theories though. Add to this the intensity of some science people like Dawkins who are vehemently against god and you find something that looks somewhat like religioius fervor.

 

Though, like you said people don't really worship science. Worship is an emotional practice. Science is a mental practice. I'm positive that there is no science hell that I will burn in if I don't worship DNA or give thanks to Lord Darwin for his knowledge.

 

Of course fundys will say that whatever your passion is , is your God. And if it isn't Jebus...ruh roh. So if your passion is science, then science is your religion. But this idea of "your passion = your god" is just fundy crap to keep you in line.

 

So what is this Christian Science church about? Seems like an oxymoron..hahaha

[dagnarus]

As to the op. This book makes interesting reading as to the psychology of what the author calls right wing authoritarians, which are somewhat synonymous with fundamentalists.

[Ouroboros]

...You are close-minded on this issue...

You shouldn't label people.

[midniterider]

Your religious.

No your religious.

NO YOUR RELIGIOUS!!

 

LMAO!

 

I prefer "spiritual".

 

I still fail to see why the idea that some human beings are fundamentalist or somewhat "religious" in their attitude NO MATTER WHAT VIEW THEY THINK IS TRUE is controversial or threatening in any way. It's obviously demonstrable and observed. Why is it threatening? It doesn't undermine the scientific method. It doesn't discredit science as a method of inquiry. It simply admits scientists and those who are just "into science" are not perfect, infallible, or without their own biases and ability to make errors. That's it. If that idea is a threat... then it would require these people to be gods... then we're back to religion.

 

I think what is happening is that 1) It is just understood that science and religion are and must remain as polar opposites. 2) Black and white thinking on this subject by both scientists and religionists is required to do this..haha.

 

Religion is a bad word to scientists, some of which are atheists. Is science a bad word to religious people? I should go vist the Christian forum and find out.

[midniterider]

There are plenty of dogmatic atheists who assert there is no god... not as a personal OPINION/belief... but as some "factual statement" they think is fully supported by science. There is no possible conceptualization of spirituality they won't regard as "woo". Even though they have no proof. They pretend that just because it's a 'negative' that they aren't somehow responsible for their "empirical assertions".

 

It's no different from how Christian believers treat unbelievers. It's arrogant bullshit. In my opinion. And I don't respect it.

 

My guess is that there are some atheists who don't like to use the word 'opinion' or 'belief' as it could be construed as religiousness. And certainly atheists who are material realists consider everything 'woo-ish' to have an underlying physical matter explanation, a favorite being hallucination.

 

But I've yet to have an Atheist knock on my door handing out tracts and trying to talk me into atheism. Thank God...err, Dawkins...err..something... lol. In any case, whether believer or atheist it isn't very nice to push your beliefs on someone else. Unless it is on this website.... :-)

[midniterider]

And I know you don't know how someone could make such a claim. It's like we're from different planets.

 

Well, except for the few actual fundy Christians on this site, I'm not sure you'll find a lot of spiritual believership on this website. Seems a lot of people here have not only shed just the Christian experience, but were so fed up that they shed everything that has to do with spiritualism. Atheism is big here. Though there are a variety of others who still have spiritual beliefs. To each his own.

 

I also hang out on a couple pagan sites .... if I didn't, the people here might convert me to atheism..haha.

[midniterider]

...You are close-minded on this issue...

You shouldn't label people.

 

'Shouldn't' is a shaming word..hahaha. Or so says my ex-wife's psychologist. Maybe that psychologist should stick it... :-)

[badpuppy]

I'm going to stop my "materialist rants" because they are pointless.

 

Cool, we're on the same page. I never intended to change your mind. Just answers to charges that I felt were undeserved.

 

I understand where you're coming from. It's just frustrating when we don't speak the same language. But I'm sure we can discuss other topics on the board as those topics come up.

 

And also, my view that some atheists/materialists/scientists are dogmatic human beings doesn't mean I think ALL of them are. I merely think dogmatism/tendency toward fundamentalism is a HUMAN trait. Not every human has it and there is a continuum, but it is a very common human trait. Unless we are going to say that atheists/materialists/scientists are all alens from outer space and therefore not subject to human nature, I think we have to admit SOME human beings are dogmatists and sometimes they use science wrongly to be assholes to anyone who holds an alternate viewpoint. That doesn't mean "you" are a fundamentalist. It just means... the attitude exists.

[badpuppy]

...You are close-minded on this issue...

You shouldn't label people.

 

I don't think stating my opinion that someone is close-minded on a single issue is "labeling them". I didn't say he was close-minded PERIOD, just on this singular issue. Either way he is free to reject my label as it is only my opinion/judgment and not some empirical reality he must carry with him throughout all time.

[badpuppy]

There are plenty of dogmatic atheists who assert there is no god... not as a personal OPINION/belief... but as some "factual statement" they think is fully supported by science. There is no possible conceptualization of spirituality they won't regard as "woo". Even though they have no proof. They pretend that just because it's a 'negative' that they aren't somehow responsible for their "empirical assertions".

 

It's no different from how Christian believers treat unbelievers. It's arrogant bullshit. In my opinion. And I don't respect it.

 

My guess is that there are some atheists who don't like to use the word 'opinion' or 'belief' as it could be construed as religiousness. And certainly atheists who are material realists consider everything 'woo-ish' to have an underlying physical matter explanation, a favorite being hallucination.

 

But I've yet to have an Atheist knock on my door handing out tracts and trying to talk me into atheism. Thank God...err, Dawkins...err..something... lol. In any case, whether believer or atheist it isn't very nice to push your beliefs on someone else. Unless it is on this website.... :-)

 

Words like "opinion" or "belief" could also be construed as humility. Something I respect far more than "one true reality" grandstanding. And yes, I love how every phenomena that doesn't fit materialism is now a hallucination LOL.

 

Well praise science for that!! (no atheists at your door... there is a whole south park episode about Dawkins where they are all running around saying things like "Science dammit!" in the future.)

 

The thing is... I don't give a crap what anybody believes. I just think it would be nice if people could be a little more cognizant of the fact that certain things are unknown and possibly/most likely unknowable no matter what "authority" someone chooses to trust. There is a lot of extrapolating going on either way. Not all of us find materialism the most rational conclusion. Acting like anyone who doesn't is an unscientific moron is simply unproductive. But... it's pointless to rant endlessly about it or even expect the concept to be understood. It's like trying to get my Christian fundamentalist mother to accept there could be truth in more than just her own religion.

 

What irritates me is merely that we all have a worldview and we all make assumptions... materialists feel they are somehow excused from class on this issue. Like the rules of perception and assumptions somehow apply to everyone and everything else but them. But... I'll get over it. Or use my ignore option a lot. (And I encourage anyone who finds me tedious and obnoxious to just ignore me. No sense torturing yourself with my verbiage on your screen.)

[badpuppy]

And I know you don't know how someone could make such a claim. It's like we're from different planets.

 

Well, except for the few actual fundy Christians on this site, I'm not sure you'll find a lot of spiritual believership on this website. Seems a lot of people here have not only shed just the Christian experience, but were so fed up that they shed everything that has to do with spiritualism. Atheism is big here. Though there are a variety of others who still have spiritual beliefs. To each his own.

 

I also hang out on a couple pagan sites .... if I didn't, the people here might convert me to atheism..haha.

 

There actually is decent chunk of a sub-population here who hasn't shed all spirituality. That's why there is an Ex-Christian Spirituality forum. But they mainly keep their mouths shut everywhere but the one little forum where they feel safe to share thoughts and ideas that don't support materialism as a given.

 

And "were so fed up" is the point, here. I absolutely don't believe it was PURE logic and rationality and NO emotional component that led most of the people on this forum to accept no possibility of ANY spirituality. I'm not saying that makes them "wrong". I'm merely saying there is obviously an emotional component here. My husband is an atheist but he is not a dogmatist. He is an atheist in the sense that he lacks any belief in God and sees no personal need for a spirituality. He doesn't dwell on the issue. And I respect his viewpoint. He isn't obligated to see reality as anything more than the material or need or engage in a spirituality.

 

re: convert you to atheism, I know you're joking, but if anything, some of the things I've witnessed only confirms my viewpoint.

[JadedAtheist]

And I know you don't know how someone could make such a claim. It's like we're from different planets.

 

I agree, I totally don't understand how you're making these claims. It's parallel to me asking you what's the capital of France and you reply "Paris" and then I ask you what is 2 + 2 and you reply yet again with "Paris". I don't even know where to begin in address the assumption that a religious belief is the same as a lack of belief in anything without proof.

 

You talk about the most rational and logical conclusion with regards to spirituality/afterlife/whatever and claim that an atheistic/materialistic worldview isn't the best explanation; that's because it isn't an explanation, it's a Do I have evidence for the afterlife or for the supernatural or whatever? No. Since I have no evidence I have to just go with the assumption there isn't any (afterlife et al) until such time I'm proven wrong. I cannot see how this isn't the most rational and logical decision to make based with 0 evidence to guide one's self. It's simply applying Occam's Razor to be an atheist.

 

To then jump to spiritualism as an explanation; it isn't the most logical, nor is it the most rational explanation because there is no EVIDENCE that would lead us to think so. Going back to Occam's Razor, it's like going into your room and you notice that your window is open and some books that were sitting on the edge of your bookshelf fell off. The most reasonable conclusion would be heavy wind came through and caused the books to fall. This is atheism. Spiritualism is answering this question saying that aliens teleported through your open window knocked your books of your shelf and teleported back in and left. Since they're an advanced society, they left no evidence that we could use to prove that this happened. Is it possible? Yeah, but it ain't reasonable, logical or deducible from what evidence we do have; I mean, you could take an alien conspiracy nut and not even he would jump to that as his first conclusion.

 

That's why I said it appears to be an agenda of yours to try and make it seem as if we're all on the same boat. It's highly disingenuous to make a claim without evidence and say that it's a better explanation than "I don't know". I mean, it's basically an outright lie. You may feel that aliens knocked over your books is the best answer (and it may very well be the right answer) but what you cannot say is that it's the most logical or rational explanation.

 

Anyways, I just noticed that you said you weren't interested in continuing but I've already typed this up so screw it, I'm posting it anyway Feel free not to respond.

[JadedAtheist]

There actually is decent chunk of a sub-population here who hasn't shed all spirituality. That's why there is an Ex-Christian Spirituality forum. But they mainly keep their mouths shut everywhere but the one little forum where they feel safe to share thoughts and ideas that don't support materialism as a given.

 

I honestly don't get were this fear of us big bad atheists comes from. Not only do you guys have the Spirituality forum but you basically dominate the chat. Several times I've logged in (admittedly this was over a year ago) and it was filled with pagans talking about rituals et cetera. There were atheists on there and they didn't just barge in and go "PROVE IT!!!!!111oneone11!" while frothing at the mouth. If anything, I avoid making an issue out of something unless someone "attacks" me first or asks my opinion; I'm sure most others here would be the same. Hell, it's because of this paranoia that I avoid the chat now. If I see some spiritualists on there I won't go in so I won't make them feel uncomfortable. In the end, I don't know what they want in order to feel "safe". What, should I honor every post in the name of Thor, Ra and Buddha now?

[lunaticheathen]

Sorry, OP reminded me of this. LOL!

 

[Guest Valk0010]

Yep. Lots of people can have weird and wonderful beliefs about life. One guy I work with once felt that he had to pay for a post office box at the post office because he was worried about people stealing mail from his letter box.

 

 

I dunno about australia, but in the states actually that is not a incredibly insane thing to do.

[Guest Valk0010]

There actually is decent chunk of a sub-population here who hasn't shed all spirituality. That's why there is an Ex-Christian Spirituality forum. But they mainly keep their mouths shut everywhere but the one little forum where they feel safe to share thoughts and ideas that don't support materialism as a given.

 

I honestly don't get were this fear of us big bad atheists comes from. Not only do you guys have the Spirituality forum but you basically dominate the chat. Several times I've logged in (admittedly this was over a year ago) and it was filled with pagans talking about rituals et cetera. There were atheists on there and they didn't just barge in and go "PROVE IT!!!!!111oneone11!" while frothing at the mouth. If anything, I avoid making an issue out of something unless someone "attacks" me first or asks my opinion; I'm sure most others here would be the same. Hell, it's because of this paranoia that I avoid the chat now. If I see some spiritualists on there I won't go in so I won't make them feel uncomfortable. In the end, I don't know what they want in order to feel "safe". What, should I honor every post in the name of Thor, Ra and Buddha now?

I get along some of them quite well, I kind of just let them have there cake and eat it too.

[midniterider]

And I know you don't know how someone could make such a claim. It's like we're from different planets.

 

Well, except for the few actual fundy Christians on this site, I'm not sure you'll find a lot of spiritual believership on this website. Seems a lot of people here have not only shed just the Christian experience, but were so fed up that they shed everything that has to do with spiritualism. Atheism is big here. Though there are a variety of others who still have spiritual beliefs. To each his own.

 

I also hang out on a couple pagan sites .... if I didn't, the people here might convert me to atheism..haha.

 

There actually is decent chunk of a sub-population here who hasn't shed all spirituality. That's why there is an Ex-Christian Spirituality forum. But they mainly keep their mouths shut everywhere but the one little forum where they feel safe to share thoughts and ideas that don't support materialism as a given.

 

And "were so fed up" is the point, here. I absolutely don't believe it was PURE logic and rationality and NO emotional component that led most of the people on this forum to accept no possibility of ANY spirituality. I'm not saying that makes them "wrong". I'm merely saying there is obviously an emotional component here. My husband is an atheist but he is not a dogmatist. He is an atheist in the sense that he lacks any belief in God and sees no personal need for a spirituality. He doesn't dwell on the issue. And I respect his viewpoint. He isn't obligated to see reality as anything more than the material or need or engage in a spirituality.

 

re: convert you to atheism, I know you're joking, but if anything, some of the things I've witnessed only confirms my viewpoint.

 

If you're saying there are haughty atheists that get bent out of shape when you say there might be something supernatural, yes I agree. There is most definitely an emotional component involved. Telling certain atheists that atheism (or science) is a religion is a great way to watch their blood boil because they have cast off that god stuff with extreme prejudice! :-) And their life is better because of that. Whether one wants to use the word religion to describe their passion for something or the comfortable warm fuzzy feeling they get reading a treatise on science, I really don't think the word is important.But some people take exception to being told science is a religion and will logically describe to you why. Words is words. They can be sorta true for someone and sorta not for someone else. In the case of beliefs or non-beliefs, there are buttons that will set off everyone. Well, not me , of course..hahaha.

 

Have you noticed that Buddhists don't really care if someone doesn't like their religion? And the Christians I worked with while I considered myself Buddhist didn't care that much that I was Buddhist. Now if I had told one of those catholics I was an atheist...holy shit...watch out. Maybe it was just those particular people. I dont know. And no way I was going to tell them anything about my pagan interests. Pagan means Satan in their book.

 

Now if science is a religion which holy book do they use? And who is god? Einstein? Hawking? Sagan? Or should we go ancient to make it more authentic. Like Aristotle? Someone who is dead is always better.

[midniterider]

There actually is decent chunk of a sub-population here who hasn't shed all spirituality. That's why there is an Ex-Christian Spirituality forum. But they mainly keep their mouths shut everywhere but the one little forum where they feel safe to share thoughts and ideas that don't support materialism as a given.

 

I honestly don't get were this fear of us big bad atheists comes from. Not only do you guys have the Spirituality forum but you basically dominate the chat. Several times I've logged in (admittedly this was over a year ago) and it was filled with pagans talking about rituals et cetera. There were atheists on there and they didn't just barge in and go "PROVE IT!!!!!111oneone11!" while frothing at the mouth. If anything, I avoid making an issue out of something unless someone "attacks" me first or asks my opinion; I'm sure most others here would be the same. Hell, it's because of this paranoia that I avoid the chat now. If I see some spiritualists on there I won't go in so I won't make them feel uncomfortable. In the end, I don't know what they want in order to feel "safe". What, should I honor every post in the name of Thor, Ra and Buddha now?

 

I never know what forum I'm replying in...lol..I'll probably get banned someday.

[Thackerie]

If you're saying there are haughty atheists that get bent out of shape when you say there might be something supernatural, yes I agree. There is most definitely an emotional component involved. Telling certain atheists that atheism (or science) is a religion is a great way to watch their blood boil because they have cast off that god stuff with extreme prejudice! :-) And their life is better because of that. Whether one wants to use the word religion to describe their passion for something or the comfortable warm fuzzy feeling they get reading a treatise on science, I really don't think the word is important.But some people take exception to being told science is a religion and will logically describe to you why. Words is words. They can be sorta true for someone and sorta not for someone else. In the case of beliefs or non-beliefs, there are buttons that will set off everyone. Well, not me , of course..hahaha. ...

 

I'm one of those atheists who couldn't care less what other people believe as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on anyone else (and as long as they leave me, the public schools, and the government the hell alone!), but I do take great offense at those "spiritual" types who imply that we more "materialistic" folks are just too blind (i.e. that we're close-minded dumb fucks) to see the truth in whatever Truth™ they're professing. That's the same approach that fundigelicals often take when trying to recruit us back into christianity, and it's insulting and abusive. This is why I avoid the Spirituality Forum like the plague.

[Ouroboros]

...You are close-minded on this issue...

You shouldn't label people.

 

I don't think stating my opinion that someone is close-minded on a single issue is "labeling them". I didn't say he was close-minded PERIOD, just on this singular issue. Either way he is free to reject my label as it is only my opinion/judgment and not some empirical reality he must carry with him throughout all time.

So you would be okay if someone told you that you were close-minded on a particular issue?

[badpuppy]

And I know you don't know how someone could make such a claim. It's like we're from different planets.

 

I agree, I totally don't understand how you're making these claims. It's parallel to me asking you what's the capital of France and you reply "Paris" and then I ask you what is 2 + 2 and you reply yet again with "Paris". I don't even know where to begin in address the assumption that a religious belief is the same as a lack of belief in anything without proof.

 

You talk about the most rational and logical conclusion with regards to spirituality/afterlife/whatever and claim that an atheistic/materialistic worldview isn't the best explanation; that's because it isn't an explanation, it's a Do I have evidence for the afterlife or for the supernatural or whatever? No. Since I have no evidence I have to just go with the assumption there isn't any (afterlife et al) until such time I'm proven wrong. I cannot see how this isn't the most rational and logical decision to make based with 0 evidence to guide one's self. It's simply applying Occam's Razor to be an atheist.

 

To then jump to spiritualism as an explanation; it isn't the most logical, nor is it the most rational explanation because there is no EVIDENCE that would lead us to think so. Going back to Occam's Razor, it's like going into your room and you notice that your window is open and some books that were sitting on the edge of your bookshelf fell off. The most reasonable conclusion would be heavy wind came through and caused the books to fall. This is atheism. Spiritualism is answering this question saying that aliens teleported through your open window knocked your books of your shelf and teleported back in and left. Since they're an advanced society, they left no evidence that we could use to prove that this happened. Is it possible? Yeah, but it ain't reasonable, logical or deducible from what evidence we do have; I mean, you could take an alien conspiracy nut and not even he would jump to that as his first conclusion.

 

That's why I said it appears to be an agenda of yours to try and make it seem as if we're all on the same boat. It's highly disingenuous to make a claim without evidence and say that it's a better explanation than "I don't know". I mean, it's basically an outright lie. You may feel that aliens knocked over your books is the best answer (and it may very well be the right answer) but what you cannot say is that it's the most logical or rational explanation.

 

Anyways, I just noticed that you said you weren't interested in continuing but I've already typed this up so screw it, I'm posting it anyway Feel free not to respond.

 

A religious belief is NOT the same as a lack of belief without proof. I agree. But do you deny the existence of "strong atheists" who don't just lack belief but positively ASSERT there is nothing more than the material? But... even though I'm sure this has driven others here crazy, it's been extremely beneficial to me to get at the root of why I often find materialists more obnoxious than even Christians. It's because Christians can admit they aren't 100% purely rational creatures. Dogmatic materialists think they DEFINE rationality.

 

But... arguing that that's untrue only results in a complete disconnect. But I think I may be able to "start" letting go my "issues" with materialists as far as day-to-day interaction now that I've realized a few things. It's why... for the most part, I don't even engage with Christians. I don't accept their assumptions as valid for me. I also don't accept the materialist assumption as valid, but it grated on me that materialists often find themselves "more rational" than anyone who has a different philosophy. But... Christians think only Christians "and no other people" can show true love and other "fruits of the spirit". This is demonstrably false, so they can have that view. I believe it is demonstrably false that materialism is de facto the most "rational" and therefore materialists are more "rational" than non-materialists. But... it's pointless to HAVE that discussion with a materialist... just like it's pointless to point out to a Christian that Christians aren't the "only good people" and in fact many of them are horrible people.

 

So I apologize if my posts have been upsetting to materialists on this board. People who leave Christianity go through a de-conversion process. But I didn't consider myself leaving Christianity so much as leaving "one true wayism". And so to me there are no "sacred cows", including materialism.

 

If YOU operate in the way you've just described I'm not "talking about you". For the billionth time now, my problem with materialism isn't that "it's a philosophical position some people hold", it's the dogmatism with which SOME hold it. That dogmatism is irrational. The only truly rational position is: "I don't know" (This is where you and I agree) because we don't... but baring the practical ability to functionally live one's life without any assumptions... then the admission: "I could be wrong", would be the most rational. Any human being with any working framework can say: "I could be wrong". But thinking there is any way to know empirically the totality of how everything works is what is irrational. And I think any materialist who thinks a spiritual reality CANNOT exist, is being irrational. That doesn't mean such a reality does exist or that someone has to believe it or "really think it might". I don't "really think" materialism makes any sense but I understand that I am limited by my own ability to perceive and my own biases (just like all other humans), and so I will admit I could be wrong... even though I don't think I am.

 

So fundie christians are irrational, fundie materialists are irrational. Saying "there are no fundie materialists" just because you feel you are not one disregards and ignores all the people who go WAY beyond "I don't see any proof for that therefore I don't accept it" to: "Religious people are all idiots. God is a delusion. Let's talk about the flying spaghetti monster now to trivialize other people's experiences and perceptions and make mine look more superior and rational." (Behavior which... in itself shows the lie of their "supreme rationality")

 

I'd like to point out that "spiritualism" and spirituality are two different things. Spiritualism is a specific type of belief system that involves ghosts and channeling and such and has roots in Christianity. I neither believe in Christianity nor ghosts. I haven't jumped to spirituality as the explanation for everything. I've used my own reason and experience to determine what *I* think is most likely. That has zero to do with you.

 

I have not asked a SINGLE person to become spiritual or accept any greater reality. I've merely expressed my irritation with dogmatism in all its forms. My perception is MY PERCEPTION. You can say I'm "wrong" but that is your perception. You may be empirically right or I may be... but there is no way, in my opinion to KNOW empirically one way or the other at this time, and maybe never. It's true, science could "fill in all the gaps" and explain all the things that the rest of us find absurd or illogical and not at all explanatory but... that is a BIG IF. That doesn't make materialism WRONG. I may very well be wrong. There may be "nothing" after death and human beings may just be complicated machines. If so, okay. But... I've seen no logical reason to insist that we can know that is how reality works and functions. That way does not work with my mental wiring. I don't know how else I can express that thought.

 

I've explained to Christians that I can't "make myself" believe in Santa Claus because it's irrational to me. It is also irrational to them. I don't say it to mock or deride their beliefs, I say it to operate from a point we both agree to try to help them understand why I can't believe in Christianity... but... their response, is always going to be that I am "deceived". They simply can't understand why I don't see the world through their eyes.

 

Similarly I've explained repeatedly to materialists that I can't "make myself" believe in the materialistic assumption. It is not because I "want to live forever". It is not because I am "afraid of death". It is not because I "can't think", "don't understand science", "lack intelligence or reasoning ability", or am "uneducated." Anyone who "needs" to make those assumptions about me is free to make them but they are untrue assumptions. And it is no different than the Christian assumption that "i am deceived".

 

The reality is... different human beings see the world in different ways. Saying you're right and someone else is wrong doesn't mean you can ever convince other people you're right. It's pointless. You couldn't convince me Santa is true. And I couldn't convince you Santa is true. I find fundamentalist Christianity as illogical as Santa. I find strict materialism also as illogical as Santa. That doesn't make me "right" on either score, it is what MY MIND CAN ACCEPT. Period. I haven't asked anyone else to change what they believe. Nor have I claimed I had an "empirically more rational mind" or that I am "empirically right".

 

I have made no empirical truth claims.

 

As an atheist, you personally may not be making empirical truth claims, but there are plenty of atheists who DO make those claims. But atheists/materialists just like everybody else are operating from human perspective and what "makes sense to them". Further, there is an emotional component to ANY strongly held viewpoint. A materialist may be following their reason to reject all supernatural beliefs (incidentally, I don't think I hold a supernatural belief unless we want to believe that consciousness... period... like mine and yours... is supernatural.) but materialists follow their emotion when they get angry about it and say how stupid and irrational other people are. No human being operates from 100% rationality. At least not any that I've met. But I will admit I could be wrong, and there could be some Vulcans out there.

 

And a Vulcan is about the only being I might trust to be more "empirically rational" than me.

[Thought2Much]

One of the reasons I left Christianity was because I saw no proof of anything that was actually spiritual. Now, I'm being told that I'm closed-minded because I only believe those things that can be seen, touched, or measured somehow?

 

I'm sorry, but it's up to the anyone making the claim that anything outside of the material world exists to prove it if they want me to believe the same thing. If I say I don't believe that bigfoot exists until I see adequate evidence, am I being closed-minded? How about fairies? Trolls? Elves?

 

The only evidence I've seen anyone put forth for anything spiritual is that they had "a feeling" about something. That is not evidence. It can't be measured outside of your own head.

 

It is fine to have happy spiritual experiences in your own head, but don't denigrate those of us who don't believe it's nothing more than specific patches of neurons firing off that give you that feeling without some sort of objective proof.

[badpuppy]

There actually is decent chunk of a sub-population here who hasn't shed all spirituality. That's why there is an Ex-Christian Spirituality forum. But they mainly keep their mouths shut everywhere but the one little forum where they feel safe to share thoughts and ideas that don't support materialism as a given.

 

I honestly don't get were this fear of us big bad atheists comes from. Not only do you guys have the Spirituality forum but you basically dominate the chat. Several times I've logged in (admittedly this was over a year ago) and it was filled with pagans talking about rituals et cetera. There were atheists on there and they didn't just barge in and go "PROVE IT!!!!!111oneone11!" while frothing at the mouth. If anything, I avoid making an issue out of something unless someone "attacks" me first or asks my opinion; I'm sure most others here would be the same. Hell, it's because of this paranoia that I avoid the chat now. If I see some spiritualists on there I won't go in so I won't make them feel uncomfortable. In the end, I don't know what they want in order to feel "safe". What, should I honor every post in the name of Thor, Ra and Buddha now?

 

I will admit this is my "own" issue. This has nothing to do with you guys. Some people on this forum are sometimes assholey with their nonbelief... but hell, I'm assholey sometimes, too. It's a human trait. I'm really making an effort to try to understand other people's perspective. Just like everybody else, I can become frustrated and irrationally make "always" and "never" type statements... of which I believe my above statement counts. But real life interactions are never that black and white, so I apologize for making a rash statement. I was frustrated by feeling like I wasn't being "heard". I also naively assume I can just "explain myself better" and I'll be heard. Because it has worked in a few cases I continue to do it even when it is often unproductive in the end because it seems fundamentally different languages are being spoken so there is a language barrier.

 

I still feel that many here have a wrong impression of what I'm actually saying but I don't know how to fix that because no matter how much I try to clarify, it doesn't seem to help and that just frustrates me more.

 

I don't think atheists are "big bad atheists". I think SOME atheists are arrogant assholes. That doesn't mean I think *you* are. I don't understand where this idea comes from that I think atheists are "bad" or out to get me. I am married to an atheist. I love him dearly. I do not think I'm in any way superior to him. Nor do I think I'm inferior. I think we are two human beings with different perceptions of the world. Both of us admit we "could be wrong" but neither of us thinks we are. We live in harmony. We don't debate this shit. We respect each other. I don't think he's an idiot. He doesn't think I'm one. I don't think there is an "evil atheist conspiracy". The love of my life is a materialistic atheist. He's just not a dogmatist. My irritation is and has always been with people who are so arrogant they cannot 'possibly be wrong'. That's it. That extends to ALL viewpoints, not just materialists. It's just that on a site like Ex-C where most people here went from Christian to atheist, that attitude seems to be pervasive.

 

It might not be the "actual attitude". One on one, most here may acknowledge they could be wrong and there "might be" a spiritual reality, they just don't believe there is... and that people who do are not automatically "less rational" than them, but part of the deconversion process is getting stuff off your chest and not having to be PC to do it.

 

I don't really know the solution here. I respect that people are going through those stages and that anger is a normal part and some may reject ALL spirituality, not just Christianity. At the same time... not every Ex-C feels the need to go to strict materialism. It doesn't seem productive for people to start moving into another form of dogmatism though. Rejecting all spirituality is different from saying all spiritual people are stupid or irrational and somehow 'lesser' than nonspiritual people.

 

I get it's a necessary phase for a lot of people, but it still feels toxic to the Ex-C's here who aren't Ex-All-Spirituality. But I *am* sorry that you don't feel you can openly express your views without someone who still has spirituality feeling "oppressed or attacked". That's not right, either. You should feel free here.

 

The thing about expressing personal views about anything in public is that other people can respond to your views. So if you say something someone else takes offense to, that other person can reply. And then you can take offense. And it can go forever. The only solution really is for each person to work on themselves, but not everybody will and everybody is at a different stage of development.

 

I'm working through shit right now... and that is being expressed on the board and is causing this conflict with others. I don't want this conflict but I need to figure some things out. The conflict itself helps me to figure out my own position. Hopefully I will be able to be less reactionary myself in expressing my viewpoints. But I can't promise I'll be perfect. Though I do genuinely wish to respect people with different viewpoints... including materialists. The issue isn't the viewpoint itself... it's the dogmatism some hold. I think when I can get to the point where I can respect that dogmatism is a stage for most people and it's a necessary stage sometimes and that that's about them and not me... then I'll be free. But I'm still working on that.

[Thought2Much]

I don't really know the solution here. I respect that people are going through those stages and that anger is a normal part and some may reject ALL spirituality, not just Christianity. At the same time... not every Ex-C feels the need to go to strict materialism. It doesn't seem productive for people to start moving into another form of dogmatism though. Rejecting all spirituality is different from saying all spiritual people are stupid or irrational and somehow 'lesser' than nonspiritual people.

 

I get it's a necessary phase for a lot of people, but it still feels toxic to the Ex-C's here who aren't Ex-All-Spirituality. But I *am* sorry that you don't feel you can openly express your views without someone who still has spirituality feeling "oppressed or attacked". That's not right, either. You should feel free here.

 

I don't "reject" spirituality because I'm angry. I reject spirituality because I have seen zero evidence for it. Stop attributing my (or anyone else's) lack of belief in anything outside the natural world to either closed-mindedness or anger. It is neither.

 

Show me evidence of the supernatural or the spiritual, and I'll believe it, too. Until such time as I am proven wrong, I will maintain that nothing spiritual exists.

[badpuppy]

There actually is decent chunk of a sub-population here who hasn't shed all spirituality. That's why there is an Ex-Christian Spirituality forum. But they mainly keep their mouths shut everywhere but the one little forum where they feel safe to share thoughts and ideas that don't support materialism as a given.

 

I honestly don't get were this fear of us big bad atheists comes from. Not only do you guys have the Spirituality forum but you basically dominate the chat. Several times I've logged in (admittedly this was over a year ago) and it was filled with pagans talking about rituals et cetera. There were atheists on there and they didn't just barge in and go "PROVE IT!!!!!111oneone11!" while frothing at the mouth. If anything, I avoid making an issue out of something unless someone "attacks" me first or asks my opinion; I'm sure most others here would be the same. Hell, it's because of this paranoia that I avoid the chat now. If I see some spiritualists on there I won't go in so I won't make them feel uncomfortable. In the end, I don't know what they want in order to feel "safe". What, should I honor every post in the name of Thor, Ra and Buddha now?

I get along some of them quite well, I kind of just let them have there cake and eat it too.

 

This brings up another point. IF materialism is true and there is "nothing" but this life... materialists tell us we have to "make our own meaning". So then... are atheists allowed to freely make their own meaning, but spiritual people are not? There is a huge difference between coercive religion and totally individualized spirituality that doesn't seek to harm or coerce others. If we all "make our own meaning" than a spiritual person's meaning should be just as valid as an atheist's since there would be no "empirical meaning". Further, if materialism is true, then so is determinism... which would mean that it is really an illusion that anybody makes their own anything... meaning... or anything else. i.e. no free will. So isn't it pointless then for materialists to get upset with non-materialists just over being non-materialists or to act as if they can somehow see their perceived rationality as an accomplishment?

 

With a deterministic worldview can one be proud they broke free of Christianity as if they somehow accomplished it with a free will and free thinking mind?

 

Incidentally this is PART of what is irrational (to ME personally) about materialism. It is either irrational in it's set-up or in it's lack of application in the real world. i.e. nobody really behaves as if they don't have free will. And even atheists think they can "make their own meaning." However... if life is really random and meaningless, then even if you "could" make your own meaning... it would be a delusion, not much different than the "delusion of spirituality". So then... materialists are allowed to be deluded and make things up but non-materialists aren't? Which assumes of course the free will or free thought to make anything in the first place.

 

To me, evolution looks like the creative PROCESS. i am a creative person for a living. I know how the creative process works. It doesn't pop out pristine and perfect. It's a messy process. And the end result is never perfect. There are always ways it can be improved upon. Supernatural Gods of monotheism, are, indeed irrational because they are internally inconsistent and contradictory. i.e. you can't be all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, and everywhere at the same time and have THIS world. But assuming evolution is a mechanistic/materialistic process IMO shows a lack of understanding of the creative process. The creative process is messy and imperfect but it does still require a consciousness to accomplish it. This isn't to say there MUST be a consciousness driving our reality... but... I don't think it's irrational to think it's a possibility.