Losing My Religion

[electech98]

Hello everyone,

 

I'm very new here, so I thought I would start off by putting down my story as it unfolds. I will copy and paste my story from another forum I frequent (a computer technology forum), since it will be most appropriate here:

 

I need a place to sort of document the process I am currently going through by stepping away from that which has defined me for my entire life of over 31 years: Christianity.

 

The reason I am doing it here, and not on my (very neglected) blog or on Facebook is because no one on this forum knows me personally, and I think it will be a very long time before I can fully disclose to my family and friends that I no longer believe in the articles of the Christian faith. At the same time, I welcome comments and suggestions for how to go about that very process of disclosure; it will be very difficult, as you will see below.

 

Primarily, I feel that I will absolutely explode into all sorts of gory bits if I don't actually start verbalizing what is going through my head at this time. I am bursting and fit to be tied, so to speak, in anticipation of letting every one of my family and friends know so that I can be set free from having to pretend; but, as this process is only starting, it will be a long journey in which I have to keep a cool head and let logic, reason, and compassion prevail. Again, as you will see below, my background has all the right ingredients for keeping me trapped in this "Christian closet" until I can really get my head straight.

 

I don't necessarily plan on writing very much now, but will continue to add to this thread as I have time and as the process takes its various twists and turns down the road to revealing my agnosticism. But in the meantime, here is some background (in bullet points!) on me so you have an idea of where I am coming from:

• 31-year old IT Consultant
  
• Born and raised in a very conservative California city, going to Christian churches all my life
  
• Currently a deacon at my church
  
• Married for almost 9 years to a woman who was raised a devout Protestant Christian all her life, and whose father is a minister in Wyoming
  
• I have 3 lovely daughters, with a 4th child on the way, and they are all homeschooled in Christian education
  
• ALL of my family are Christians, with the exception of one or two cousins
  
• ALL of my friends are Christian, with the exception of one or two who have also stepped away from the faith
  

My next post will be related to what started me down the road of questioning Christianity. I must end it here and get to the bank before it closes.

 

Thanks for listening,

 

Jeremy

 

 

Then, the next post:

 

I appreciate most everyone's replies so far. Actually getting to talk about it and receive comments is pretty cathartic.

I do want to make clear that this is not a decision based on my particular church or denomination. This is something I've been struggling with for a few years now, starting with conversations I've had with a friend of mine who, despite being one of the most devout Christians I knew, all of a sudden decided to label himself as an atheist. But I'll get to that story in a minute.

 

For now, here is my journey as a Christian:

 

I was born and raised going to church. I never knew a time that I didn't believe in God, the Bible, sin, redemption, etc. Essentially, I am what many are: raised in the faith. I counted myself very fortunate (blessed) to have been born into a Christian family, since I also grew up with the mindset that anything non-Christian was wrong and all non-Christian people were damned. It wasn't until recently, though, that I realized most people's faith comes as a result of where they are born and what kind of society they grow up in. For example, I would most likely be a Hindu if I grew up in India; a Muslim if I grew up in Iran or Iraw; a Buddhist or Thaoist if I grew up Asian; a Catholic is I grew up in Mexico or Spain; a secularist or Lutheran if I grew up in Germany; a Mormon if I was from Utah; etc.

 

Growing up Christian, I just knew Christianity was right. I had a wholesale, heartfelt belief in Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation; the only true, divinely-inspired Scripture in the world came from the 66 books of the Protestant Bible; and the only god around was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob found in the Old and New Testaments. It's what I and everyone around me believed.

 

Thinking back on it, I realize how actually very easy it is to be a Christian in America, when almost everyone else (especially those in conservative towns like mine) is some form of Christian. It's what almost everyone is, what almost everyone does.

 

So, as a kid growing up, I fit in quite comfortably with my first church (a pretty charismatic, Baptist church). This is also where I first learned I had a love for music and drumming. At some point, around my junior year in high school, my parents decided they were going to leave that church and go to a more conservatively Charismatic evangelical Baptist, because some of their good friends also decided to leave. I don't remember the reasons given for those families leaving at that time, but I don't think there was anything scandalous going on. Just one of those transitions: families move to different churches every now and then for a variety of reasons.

 

I also fit in very well at our new church, getting involved with the high school ministry and playing on the high school worship team, going to church camps and a mission to a Mexican orphanage among other cool things. I was your typical, average, church-going teenager without much of a clue as to why I believed what I did...I just knew I believed it. That all changed when I moved to Los Angeles for college.

 

I went down to LA (Pomona specifically) to go to DeVry University for Electronics Engineering Technology (later switching to Computer Information Systems). When I got down there, I was looking for an on-campus Bible group to be a part of and make friends through. Almost immediately, I was met and invited to a Bible study held by a group that I would later know as the International Churches of Christ, or ICOC (the LA church was known as the Los Angeles Church of Christ, or LACC). Through Bible studies and continued fellowship with members of this church, they eventually convinced me that I was NOT a true Christian because I was not actively evangelizing ("discipling") people according to how they interpreted the Bible. Mind you, I'm still very young (17) and naive at this point, even about the deeper things of the Christian faith, so I fell quite fast for their lines. Eventually, I was baptized into their church (because my first baptism in my first church apparently never counted, according to the LACC), and began a journey through the course of one year that changed my whole outlook on Christianity and the Bible...but not in the way you are thinking, at least not yet.

 

Through that year (it seemed like an eon of time back then), I was very actively evangelizing wherever I could and being discipled by someone who was more "mature" in the faith. I actually was able to evangelize and baptize 5 people by the time I left that group. But during that time, my grades were slipping and I was going broke because I would give as much money as I could to that church. My mom eventually stopped giving me money every month because she knew I was tithing part of it to that church, and she and all my other church friends and family back home knew that the ICOC and LACC were a dangerous sect or cult of Christianity that liked to recruit especially from college campuses. They were all back home praying I would be able to find my way out of that church.

 

Because of how badly things were starting to look for me, and because the ICOC (LACC) also received negative media coverage, I started looking into these issues myself. Part of it was also brought on by the fact that at some point during my evangelizing, I met a guy named Eddie (he's important later on) who knew all about our group, and he had a list of questions he would ask ICOC members to see if he could get us to think for ourselves. He gave me his number one day so we could have further conversations, but I was cautioned against calling him by my discipler and other ICOC members.

 

When I started looking into the issues (specifically, certain doctrines that the ICOC held to that I started not believing in, and how they also tied to manipulation and control of the members), I knew eventually I had to get out and get free. At that time, I was living in a house full of male ICOC members who were friends of mine at the time, and they were also college students. But I also knew that if I started a conversation about the issues and about leaving, there would be big confrontations from the leaders and from those living in the house with me. I called Eddie, because he was the only other person I knew of that was aware of all these issues, and he graciously offered to put me up for a good while. So, I quietly packed up all my belongings in the back of my truck, wrote a 1-page letter and put it on the bed of the house leader, and drove away.

 

I lived with Eddie for a few months before I eventually dropped out of DeVry and went to live back home with my mom and sister (during my 1.5 years at DeVry, my parents went through a divorce...it was definitely not unexpected, as their marriage was always rocky). During that time with Eddie, he taught me how to look at the Bible through a more Reformed (i.e. Calvinistic) viewpoint. That is, he showed me how I could be assured of eternal salvation, and that God was sovereign over everything. He was very much into reading the works of John Calvin, R.C. Sproul, etc. along with more evangelistic works by people like Ray Comfort. An eclectic mix, for sure, but Eddie was eclectic.

 

Eventually I moved out and returned to my hometown to live with my mom and sister until I could find my feet again. Everyone was incredibly relieved and glad I left the ICOC church, and it was sweet relief to be free from a life of constant worry over whether I was doing enough to please God. I could just enjoy church again and fellowshipping with "normal" Christians.

 

As you could probably tell, I went back to the church I was attending before moving to LA, got back involved in the music ministry, and even formed a band with some of my friends from that church. That was a great time in my life, and I will always remember it fondly: being single, enjoying church, playing in a band and eventually recording a CD, and just generally enjoying life and God again without the constant worry of always wondering if I was saved or not. At the same time as all that, my Reformed viewpoint (thanks to Eddie) began to grow and I became much more aware of what the Bible actually says about stuff. I believe the experience in LA with that cult helped open my eyes to a certain point so that I would not be so gullible again when it comes to my beliefs and my assurance as a Christian. Due to all this, my beliefs in the assurance of eternal salvation due to the sovereignty of God in electing those who will eventually believe and go to heaven was becoming more and more cemented in my mind. This started to create a problem with the church I was going to, because it definitely was not a "Reformed" (again, i.e. Calvinistic) church, and they believed in the absolute free will of man (which I no longer believed in).

 

So, I started looking around town to see if there were any Reformed churches. There was one, so I eventually started transitioning to the Reformed church because it lined up more with my beliefs. I was still in the band, no one really looked down on me for switching churches, and eventually my mom and sister started going to the Reformed church as well after I spent some time explaining Reformed doctrine to them (which they eventually agreed with).

 

So, this Reformed church is the church I am currently a member of. I started going there in 2001, and I have been a deacon there for almost 5 years. My hunger for theology was finally being satisfied with this church, since the other churches in my hometown that I went to were not so much doctrinally-driven as they were experientially- and emotionally-driven. I believed in the corruptness of man's will to ever make a good choice outside of God's active work in turning man's heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. I believed all things were sovereignly decreed by God (even the Fall) all for His good pleasure. I believed (as I had all along) that the presupposition of "The Bible is the Word of God" was the only correct presupposition to have, as it was supposed to have guided most every decision and thought about most everything in life - from salvation to dating and marriage to how the world came to be, how to view homosexuality and sexuality in general, how to view science when it conflicts with the Bible, etc. In short, I was a literal 24-hour 6-day creationist who believed in the literalism and inerrancy of the Bible.

 

Shortly after I started going to this Reformed church, that Reformed church called a man from Nebraska to pastor it because they were without a pastor at the time. When he and his family moved out here, I met and immediately had a crush on the girl I would eventually marry. I was firmly entrenched in their home-life, as they had me over pretty much every Sunday after church to hang out with them and eat Sunday lunch with them. I was single and living on my own at this time, so it was easy to do that every Sunday. Eventually, their oldest daughter and I started dating in April of 2002 with their blessing, and I was married to her in April of 2003. 9 months and 4 days after our marriage, our first of 3 daughters was born.

 

During this time, Eddie and I rarely kept in contact, except with the occasional phone call or email. He also got married to the daughter of an elder of a pretty big church near West Covina (I think). But as always, he was constantly studying Scripture and studying about Scripture because to him, the most important thing in his evangelizing people was convincing unbelievers of the resurrection of Christ as an actual, historical, provable event. But also during this time (he tells me later) he is becoming increasingly concerned about the various evidences and data that is pointing him away from believing that the resurrection happened. To him, the Christian faith hangs on whether or not Jesus actually resurrected from the dead, as Paul says in one of his epistles that if Christ did not rise from the dead, then faith was in vain.

 

Anyways, I eventually become a deacon in the church, we have more kids, my wife's parents move to Colorado and then eventually to Wyoming because of various calls her dad receives to pastor other churches within our Reformed denomination, and life goes on.

 

A few years ago, I got back in touch with Eddie through Facebook who, surprise of all surprises, lists his religious views as Atheist! After my initial shock and disappointment at how someone like him could lose all faith in any god, we initiate a conversation about his eventual turn to atheism. He recommends various books and resources to me, and at first I am very hesitant to read them because I always hated reading something that would make me question my faith. But, I've done it before and I'd always seemed to come out stronger in the end, so I put my nose to the grindstone and begin reading some of his recommendations. I also gave him recommendations on books about the evidences of the resurrection and other things. And our various conversations would go as you normally would expect such conversations to go: him arguing from his side and not convincing me, and me arguing from my side and not convincing him.

 

I somewhat gave all that study a rest after a while because I just wanted to continue living the daily life of a Christian, but somehow (when I had some more free time on my hands) I found my way back to reading materials that were challenging to the Christian faith as a whole. Not only just about the resurrection, but about Bible history, reliability of manuscripts and texts, influences of other world religions on the original Hebrew religions (including the origins of the accounts of the creation and flood and other such popular Bible stories), the controversies over the canon throughout history, and just the very fact that there are tens of thousands of different Christian denominations each with their various beliefs about themselves being right and other denominations/religions being wrong, and many other things.

 

One of the greatest challenges posed to me in all this was taking something called the "Outsider Test of Faith". That is, I need to use the same criteria in looking at the Christian faith as I do in looking at all the other faiths and religions I actively reject. For instance, I reject the Mormon faith because of historical, archaeological, and textual reasons pertaining to the Book of Mormon. I don't believe in Islam because I don't consider the Quran to be the inspired Word of God, as much as Muslims believe that. I reject Catholicism also because of historical and textual concerns pertaining to what Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha. So, since I reject all of these for historical, textual, and even archaeological reasons, why shouldn't I also evaluate Christianity based on historical, archaeological, and textual data, giving it a fair shake? Otherwise, I would be holding to a double-standard: accepting Christianity on the basis of faith and rejecting all other religions on the basis of evidence.

 

And at some point down the road, in reading all of these things in addition to the Christian responses to these materials and the responses to those responses, and in allowing myself to not feel guilty for using reason and logic, and in making myself take the Outsider Test of Faith, I decided I didn't believe the Bible to be the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God anymore. Something just clicked off. I never thought I would ever ever ever, in my entire life and in my wildest dreams, say to myself or admit to others that I don't consider myself a Christian anymore. But now can I actually say with all confidence that I just don't believe anymore.

 

Just for reference, here a short list of some of the material I have read:

• "Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity" by John Loftus
  
• "The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails" - a collection of essays from various leading atheists and agnostics, edited by John Loftus
  
• "The End of Christianity" - the third book in the Loftus trilogy, another collection of essays from leading atheists and agnostics, edited by John Loftus
  
• "Why I Am Not a Christian" by Richard Carrier
  
• "Not the Impossible Faith: Why Christianity Didn't Need a Miracle to Succeed" by Richard Carrier
  
• The Bible and Christianity - The Historical Origins
  
• Agnostic Review of Christianity
  
• Other Richard Carrier articles on Infidels.org
  
• www.Infidels.org in general
  
• Among other things, including responses/rebuttals to the above, and responses to those responses
  

So there you have it: my journey in a nutshell. Sorry, no cliffs. I think my next post will be to respond to various comments and keep the dialog going, and to better delve into the psychological impact this will have especially as it pertains to my very devout wife, her family, and my very devout friends. Again, I appreciate most of the comments so far.

 

Thanks for listening,

 

Jeremy

 

 

And finally, the last post on that forum (so far):

 

I'd like to add a bit to my journey story, if I may:

During the past few years, even before I got back in touch with my friend Eddie, I had already started to have lingering doubts about a few things.

 

For instance:

1. Why was is that the apostle Paul was always having to defend his apostleship to the churches? And why did his theology (justsification by faith alone) differ with that of Jesus in the first 3 synoptic Gospels (do these commands and you will have eternal life) and James (a man is not justified by faith alone, but by works)?
   
2. If we were to believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible as the Word of God, why has there ever been a dispute about what books to put in the canon (i.e., the differences in the canon between Protestants, Catholics, the Orthodox Christian churches, and the Jews), and what parts may or may not be forgeries or additions (i.e. Mark 16:9-20) or pseudopigrapha (i.e. the pastorals - 1 & 2 Timothy, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 2 Peter, etc.)? These disputes are still ongoing today with even more vigor than ever before due to new data and methods for critiquing the texts of the Bible.
   
3. Why, if we let science shape our view of the earth not being the center of the universe, not being flat, and not being fixed in space despite what a literalist reading of the Bible would have one believe, would we also not let science inform us about the formation of the universe, or the causes of homosexuality (as opposed to pure rebellion against God), etc.?
   
4. Prayer seems to be a shot in the dark...you win some, you lose some, and it seems that the same results happen whether you pray or not.
   
5. Etc.
   

I realize there are many liberal Christian denominations out there that do not have issues with evolution and homosexuality, and do not hold to a literalist point of view of the Bible, so some of these issues would pertain more to fundamentalist denominations like mine.

 

In becoming agnostic, I've freed myself from automatically dismissing evolution or the other earth- and universe-related sciences and I can freely look into the claims of evolutionary theory without feeling guilty of betraying the Bible. I've also freed myself from automatically looking down on those of other sexual orientations because I can now freely acknowledge the many factors that come into play with sexual orientation (rather than just chalk it up to willful disobedience to God).

 

But again, I've had questions like these for a while now. I've voiced some of my concerns to my pastor, but many of these subjects are pretty taboo to bring up even around my wife. I remember a conversation I was having with a good friend of mine when he was over for dinner, and we were talking about later additions to the Bible manuscripts (such as Mark 16:9-20) which would throw a monkey-wrench in the whole "inerrancy" argument. My wife, upon overhearing our conversation, proceeded to intervene and strongly remind us that what we're talking about is "The Word of God", as if to diffuse a potentially disastrous situation of calling the accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible into question.

 

Also, whenever I am watching a show on the Discovery channel or the Science channel about the universe, the Big Bang theory, evolution, etc. she never lets any of those shows get by without remarks that those types of shows make her mad because they clearly don't agree with "The Word of God".

 

And lastly, which may give you all some idea of what I may be dealing with: after talking to her one evening about my friend Eddie recently (about the effects his atheism has had on his marriage), she made it known to me that she would rather something happen to me (such as die) than for me to lose my faith. She can't ever fathom having a husband that is not a Christian.

 

So there you have it. Someone remarked that it will not be as bad as I think it will be when I finally make it known I am agnostic, but you really have to know my wife and her family (and the church friends and family I have). I tell you guys, I am firmly entrenched. I am a deacon, a Sunday School teacher, a husband to a devout wife, a father to 3 girls who are being cemented in this faith, a son-in-law to a longtime pastor, a brother and son to two dedicated church members, and a drummer in a fairly new Christian band where 3 very good friends and my brother-in-law are devoted Christians.

 

I don't know what to do, and I feel suffocated. Every Sunday now it feels as if the pastor, also a good friend of mine at least for now, is shoveling the rhetoric and fundamentalism on very thick lately. It takes all my willpower not to whip out my phone and read a book during the service. Prayers are meaningless to me, because it just seems I am talking to the air. But I'm expected to pray at every meal that we're together as a family, so I get through prayers as quick as I can to get it over with. The comments I hear from my wife and her sister (she lives with us for now) against science, homosexuality, etc. due to commercials or shows on the TV are getting more and more common, as if it is cool to continually remind everyone how Christian they are...it's driving me more and more crazy, but I try to ignore those comments or just say something to the effect of "yep" or "hmm" and get on to another topic of conversation. It's like everything around me is conspiring against me to finally come out and say something before I go fracking bananas. But that would result in an explosion around me that I don't think I (or my marriage) can handle right now.

 

Catch-22. I have to say something soon, otherwise I will stress myself to death. But I can't really say anything because of how much will implode.

 

One thing is good...I think, after writing all this out, I'm beginning to see more and more how unhealthy my certain church environment is. Maybe this is part of what prompted me to start really looking into these issues, beside my concerns noted above and the situation with Eddie. That's something for me to think about further.

 

Thanks again for listening.

 

Jeremy

 

 

So, there it is so far. Like I said earlier, this journey is only just beginning and I am still "in the closet" so to speak. Documenting this transition is much more helpful than not, so I'm grateful for places like Ex-Christian.net for allowing us to have a voice. I will provide updates, of course, if anything transpires with family or friends.

 

Glad to be here,

 

Jeremy

[Eugene39]

Hi, Jeremy. Enjoyed your story of how you lost your faith. My loss of faith was also completely unintentional. As far as your family problems go, I so wish there were answers. There are several of us on here who feel like pulling our hair out at times. I've been able to whittle my church attendance down to a SS class, but even that is driving me crazy. All I can tell you is that this is a great place to vent, as you try to come up with solutions. Welcome to Ex-C.

[jblueep]

Jeremy,

 

Welcome to EX-C! Thank you for sharing your story. I am fortunate that my wife and I deconverted at the same time, although just in the last several months. We are still trying to navigate though how/when/if to tell our families, church friends, etc.

 

You will find a lot of support on here for your situation(s).

 

J

[katiejones]

Jeremy, you've had a pretty spectacular journey. I was born and raised into the Reformed tradition, so I can understand how those beliefs became so cemented. They seem so much to glorify God over any other view of the Bible, paying full respect to the inerrancy of "His Word" and stressing the sovereignty of God in all areas, including our path to salvation. This was the only doctrine I ever believed. I had considered just allowing myself to become more of a liberal Christian when I encountered inconsistencies in the Bible, but I thought, "Well, what's the point in that?" I just didn't really see one. I was, frankly, pretty tired of Jesus. I made a pretty smooth transition from Reformed Baptist to deist to agnostic atheist. This happened about half a year ago, and I told my parents that I'm not a Christian at the beginning of November. It was pretty terrible. My dad has a PhD in Theology, so he keeps wanting to probe me--probably to prove to me that I have no idea what I'm actually talking about. My mom told me she hopes that something traumatic happens to me that brings me down on my knees before Almighty God.

 

I can't imagine how difficult this would be with a spouse and children. Honestly, my heart is breaking for you. It sounds like it is not a safe time to tell your wife about this, as she is not open to questioning at all. The only thing that kept me sane during the most torrential parts of my deconversion and telling my friends and family was having forums like this. Keep coming back and keeping us posted, and please keep your sanity! You might suffer a bit through this (we all have), but we're all pulling for you. You're courageous for having made it this far!

[Thought2Much]

Welcome, Jeremy! If you've read many of the other extimonials here, you will find a number of people in circumstances very much like yours. Like you, I am also married to a woman who is the daughter of a preacher, and whose whole family is made up of Bible literalists and creationists. I have no idea how I'm going to ever let her or anyone else in the family know that I no longer believe in any of the things that they do without nuking my entire family in the process.

 

Whenever you're feeling suffocated and like you have to vent, we'll be here to listen, and a fair number of us know exactly how you are feeling.

[Llwellyn]

I grew up in the Reformed Church of America as well. I was my father's disciple and read every Sproul, Spurgeon, and Piper book he would give me. I remember thinking how privileged and special I was to have the right religion and the right sect of the right religion. Now I believe that Calvinism is the most ethically dubious form of religion -- right there next to Islamic Salafism. Yahweh creates vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction in order to display his glory by cursing them ?!? That kind of creed is fit only to be shreiked in a mad-house.

[Positivist]

Welcome Jeremy! You have indeed come to the right place. I really appreciated your story and we have much in common (falling in with the wrong religious crowd, being really involved in the church, never questioning our beliefs until well down the road...etc.)

 

My deconversion was also unintentional and I fought it tooth and nail, all to no avail. How does one stop seeing contrary evidence in order that they may persist in faith/delusion?

 

I am also in the closet to my family. My husband knows of my atheism but no one else in the family; he is sliding into home base as a liberal Christian or even agnostic, and that too is a secret. It would be devastating for my family and fundy-in-laws to learn of our spiritual status so I just can't go there.

 

I hope to hear more from you. You are in a tough spot, that's for sure. We are here for you!

[bornnormal]

Welcome!

While your journey was really fascinating, I can not think of anything smart to say to you regarding your current family condition.

Maybe if the good old Christian male authority plays any role in your marriage, and if she has any interest in science, or logic, then your wife could "submit" herself more easily to your truth.

But in case God is before everyone else, even before family, then... I don't know.

 

Thank god (or me?), you don not have to live and make peace with all the relatives and friends, only your wife. The rest will solve itself much easier, the true relationships strengthened, the superficial ones fading. (or at least I think and hope so)

Best of luck!

Keep us posted!

[Antikristos]

Hello and Welcome, Jeremy and thank you for sharing your story. I'm new here myself but I can tell you that you have found a great place. It sounds like you've been down a rough road and you have a rough road ahead. I cannot imagine how difficult it is to be in a completely different place than your wife...how it is to finally be liberated from the oppressive slave mentality of xianity and yet you have to hide it from the most important person in your life. There are many here who are in similar situations.

 

Keep posting your story as it unfolds. People here will be interested and will actually give a crap about what you are going through.

[Margee]

Welcome Jeremy! Thank you for taking the time to share your very familiar story with us. We can all relate on so many levels!! You have found a very safe place to share your concerns and questions. Personally, I would have died without this site. I thought I was the ONLY person in the world who lost there faith.

 

Looking to hear more from you! Good luck and best wishes on your journey!

 

Sincerely, Margee

[electech98]

I tell you, it's very relieving to hear how others have gone through very similar struggles (and even a few on here that used to be in the Reformed tradition of Christianity!).

 

I am starting a book right now, recommended from Ex-Christian.net, called "Why I Believed - Reflections of a Former Missionary". So far, it seems like his approach in the book is probably the most useful in helping people understand where I am coming from in rejecting Christianity after all these years, because he is so very in tune with the ins and outs of being a Christian and having faith. When I finish reading, I will decide if it might be better to give this book to those closest to me (and have my wife read it) as a good way for them to see what kind of journey my faith has been on. Otherwise, I know I wouldn't be able to answer every single objection from every single Christian I come in contact with. I'm not that quick on my feet when it comes to debating or arguing, and I honestly just don't want to argue. But again, I think I will try to persuade my wife to read this book, which may (or may not) prompt her to read more material like I have.

 

Either way, coming out as an agnostic will not be pretty. My church will almost certainly excommunicate me publicly (they have a strict stance on church membership and discipline), my in-laws aren't very gracious when it comes to opposing viewpoints (especially atheism), my sister is so very spiritual and in love with Bible devotion and prayer, I will have to leave my band (but I don't feel honest with myself playing the Christians songs we play anyway), and I can't count the number of friends / acquaintances that will most likely go silent. Not to mention the uncertainty of how my wife will react (will she leave me? Will she stay with me but resent me?)...I'm just hoping I can get her to read this one book at least, which may soften the blow some.

 

It's like that Third Eye Blind song says: "I've never been so alone. And I've never been so alive".

[bornnormal]

I'm not that quick on my feet when it comes to debating or arguing, and I honestly just don't want to argue. But again, I think I will try to persuade my wife to read this book, which may (or may not) prompt her to read more material like I have.

 

Me neither. I never had quick wit, but I found out that practice makes perfect. To me, the hardcore atheist Richard Dawkins's God Delusion provided great weapons against church doctrines and the whole concept of religion. His other book, The Greatest Show On Earth cemented my knowledge of evolution against creationist arguments. And the countless debates watched on youtube featuring Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris gave me the extra quickness against the never changing religious arguments. Now I am a fearless debater. No one posted a real challenge, since I did not meet any sophisticated apologists yet. Everyone is dumbfounded by my well constructed, coherent arguments. (OK, end of self-praise)

Have fun here!

[Positivist]

I tell you, it's very relieving to hear how others have gone through very similar struggles (and even a few on here that used to be in the Reformed tradition of Christianity!).

 

I am starting a book right now, recommended from Ex-Christian.net, called "Why I Believed - Reflections of a Former Missionary".

This is a great book!

 

I agree--this site is a lifesaver. The church inculcates but does not prepare its subjects for potential departure. Thus, it can be quite a rough transition!

[Thought2Much]

bornnormal, I'm thinking I'll have to take a different approach if I ever finally come out in the open. While I may explain to my wife the reasons I can't accept the Christian faith, I'll probably just tell everyone else that I have many reasons for my disbelief, and that my views aren't up for debate. No matter what I say, they will still think they won the argument because "God is on their side," so I see it as a useless exercise.

[electech98]

bornnormal, I'm thinking I'll have to take a different approach if I ever finally come out in the open. While I may explain to my wife the reasons I can't accept the Christian faith, I'll probably just tell everyone else that I have many reasons for my disbelief, and that my views aren't up for debate. No matter what I say, they will still think they won the argument because "God is on their side," so I see it as a useless exercise.

Trapped, have you posted your deconversion story on this forum? If so, I'd love to read it. Sound like our family situation is pretty similar.

[bornnormal]

bornnormal, I'm thinking I'll have to take a different approach if I ever finally come out in the open. While I may explain to my wife the reasons I can't accept the Christian faith, I'll probably just tell everyone else that I have many reasons for my disbelief, and that my views aren't up for debate. No matter what I say, they will still think they won the argument because "God is on their side," so I see it as a useless exercise.

I was probably not clear, sorry for that. I did not write this as an advice. I understand that it is a totally different situation living in community which is deeply christian than mine, where I live in a mostly secular environment. I just wanted to recommend various sources that sharpen ones wit and give more confidence against elaborated and twisted arguments.

Obviously it would be crazy to go against everyone.

[Thought2Much]

Trapped, have you posted your deconversion story on this forum? If so, I'd love to read it. Sound like our family situation is pretty similar.

 

Sure, it's right here: A Story of Being "trapped"

[electech98]

These thoughts pop into my head sometimes, and it takes all I have to not shout them out at church or at the dinner table with the family:

 

"What is forgiveness if God still requires a sacrifice?"

 

"The Bible is not the Word of God...it is the word of men about their god!"

 

(to the Reformed folk): "Paul give us 'justification by faith alone (Romans 3:28)', and yet James gives us 'justification by works and not faith alone (James 2:24)'. Which part of the Bible should I believe?"

 

"You don't believe the earth is flat and under a dome, or that a third of all the stars could fall on the earth and it still be there. So why don't you believe the earth is over 4 billion year old or that life itself is evolved?"

 

"You don't believe women HAVE to keep their hair long or keep themselves unadorned (per the Apostle Paul) because you say that was a product of his society at that time. So why don't you believe that Paul's views on homosexuality could also be mistaken and only a product of society at that time?"

 

Bleh.

[electech98]

Trapped, have you posted your deconversion story on this forum? If so, I'd love to read it. Sound like our family situation is pretty similar.

 

Sure, it's right here: A Story of Being "trapped"

 

Thanks Trapped!

[marmot]

Thanks for sharing. This sounds manipulative...but have you ever thought about moving across the country somewhere? Or even just another city in California?

 

I recently realized that my deconversion really began when I was taken away from my support structure in my hometown, and moved to another, more liberal city and didn't find a good church home. It was really set into motion when I moved again to an even more liberal city (this time to Los Angeles) and after visiting a couple churches we didn't like my wife and I stopped looking.

 

It would have been immensely difficult for me to deconvert (I don't think I would have) if I would have been surrounded by my Christian friends and stayed at the church in which I met my wife.

 

I know it sounds kind of stupid, but I felt really sad reading your story, and it doesn't seem like you have a lot of options.

[electech98]

I was thinking about it last night, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm facing a deadline here with my "coming out". In a way I'm relieved, but also more nervous about it.

 

You see, as we go to a Reformed church of the Presbyterian persuasion, we baptize our infants. And as you know from my first post, we are expecting our fourth child sometime around the first of July. And there will be no way I can stand in front of the church at the baptism and take the vows required. I just can't do it. Obviously I can't hide throughout the baptism or call in sick, because it'll just get postponed. The parents of the baptized child are required to agree to 2 statements about raising the child "in the care and admonition of the Lord", as found here: http://www.rcus.org/index.php/worship/directory-online/210-direct-baptism

 

I can't go through life dishonest with those around me all the time. Now that I've "seen the light", so to speak, all I can think about is how I have to keep lying about my faith to those around me during prayer, church, discussions, etc. I may be able to keep up the charade by weekly church attendance or meal prayers, but there's a point where it has to stop, and i just know I wouldn't be able to stand up there in front of the whole church, have my newborn baptized, and consent to the parental vows during the baptism. It just isn't me to be this deceptive and fake for so long.

 

That's the struggle, isn't it, that we closet agnostics/atheists have to go through, huh? What a tremendous test, one of those turning points in life that will forever define the rest of our lives.

 

Damn it all.

[Positivist]

...there will be no way I can stand in front of the church at the baptism and take the vows required.

 

...all I can think about is how I have to keep lying about my faith to those around me during prayer, church, discussions, etc.

Hey electech. Don't you hate it when things come to a head like this?

This may sound terrible to some, but is there any way you can fake your way through the ceremony? I mean, we lie all the time to keep the peace (example: "Honey, do these pants make my ass look big?"). I think better a small lie now than a big blow up that will tarnish this milestone event forever. I would try to let the deconversion happen more slowly. People can't handle the truth in large doses.

 

Just a thought! Let us know how it goes!

 

My two cents!

[electech98]

My question is: how to let a deconversion happen more slowly? It's almost guaranteed that if I start letting on about little things here and there to even a few people I will be looked on as suspiciously contrary to the rest of the flock and will probably be forced into conversations that would reveal my true stance on things. Especially with the wife or sister-in-law, which would lead to the in-laws finding out and bringing up concerns to the leaders of my church. This is not a shallow slope I'm on...it's pretty steep, and once things start to come out (even very slowly at first), it'll most likely snowball very quickly.

 

That, and it's killing me to portray someone I'm not anymore.

 

I can understand waiting until after the baby is born and baptized, but it's going to eat at me like nothing else. At some point, the bandaid is going to have to come off with a sting.

[Thought2Much]

I can understand waiting until after the baby is born and baptized, but it's going to eat at me like nothing else. At some point, the bandaid is going to have to come off with a sting.

 

Everyone has their own personal last straw, or has decided in their minds what hill that they're going to die on (to borrow a military phrase). For you, it is over the baptism. For me, it's when my father in-law either dies or retires from preaching. Either way, I'm not going to another church after that. Never. That's where I'm personally drawing the line, regardless of the crap I may get because of it.

[electech98]

I'm at a point right now (after thinking about it more last night) where it may be better to discuss topics as my wife brings them up one by one, for the purpose of a gradual coming out. For instance, if she makes a comment about homosexuality from watching something on the TV - I can just ask her if she's ever really looked into the various genetic, societal, or environmental causes for homosexuality (such as the level of estrogen "attacking" male fetuses in the womb), along with the homosexuality that occurs in nature, rather than homosexuality occurring purely out of a rebellion against God. Or, I can bring up my changing mind when it comes to the age of the earth and evolution, and talk to her about all the various accurate scientific tests (most Christians only know about and harp on Carbon-14 dating) that are used to date the earth and the cosmological tests that are used to date the universe. All the while, I can remind her that Galileo was heavily persecuted by the Christian church when he came up with the concept of the sun being the center of the galaxy and the earth rotating and orbiting around the sun (and not being fixed in space)...since, as everyone knew back then, the Bible clearly taught a flat earth that was the center of God's creation and the sun, moon, and stars moved around the earth.

 

I think I'm just going to have to strategize a little more. Bringing up my deconversion outright will most likely bring the worst type of reaction...but if I get her thinking about these things herself, that will be so much better. And hopefully we can get to a good place before we even have to think about a baptism, etc.