Reincarnation

[Noggy]

there are 2 things people are saying, it's about a 50/50 split.

 

1. we are material, we die, our atoms break down and form other things, that is all.

2. we have a soul that lives within us and lives on after our atoms break down and form other things.

 

Meh, there is no way to know either way at this time. Besides, there are many more options than this, many of which has been said in this thread. Of course these two are the most popular, and what the other interpretations often get interpreted as.

[Cooley]

Freeze! This is the evidence police!

[Noggy]

Freeze! This is the evidence police!

 

Not allowed here!

[blackpudd1n]

I totally missed this thread somehow, but I thought I'd chuck my two cents in, as I couldn't see that anyone else had had the same thought on the subject as thus far.

 

As far as the possibility of reincarnation, I don't think too much about it, because I cannot see how it is really possible to prove it, one way or another.

 

HOWEVER, when reincarnation is tied up in the concept of karma, I cannot stand the idea. Why should I be punished in this lifetime for something that I cannot even remember doing in a previous lifetime? How is that fair?

 

I came to this way of thinking when I was watching a segment on TV over a year ago, that can even now move me to tears. This lady ran an orphanage in a country where Buddhism was the primary belief system, and they asked the children what they would like for christmas. One little boy in a wheelchair responded that he would just like to ask Buddha to make him a better person, because he must have been such a horrible person in his previous life for his parents to not want him and for him to be in a wheelchair. To this day, I am utterly devastated that a little boy could think in such a way.

 

When reincarnation is tied up with the concept of karma, it can be an absolutely horrific concept.

[Zephie]

I totally missed this thread somehow, but I thought I'd chuck my two cents in, as I couldn't see that anyone else had had the same thought on the subject as thus far.

 

As far as the possibility of reincarnation, I don't think too much about it, because I cannot see how it is really possible to prove it, one way or another.

 

HOWEVER, when reincarnation is tied up in the concept of karma, I cannot stand the idea. Why should I be punished in this lifetime for something that I cannot even remember doing in a previous lifetime? How is that fair?

 

I came to this way of thinking when I was watching a segment on TV over a year ago, that can even now move me to tears. This lady ran an orphanage in a country where Buddhism was the primary belief system, and they asked the children what they would like for christmas. One little boy in a wheelchair responded that he would just like to ask Buddha to make him a better person, because he must have been such a horrible person in his previous life for his parents to not want him and for him to be in a wheelchair. To this day, I am utterly devastated that a little boy could think in such a way.

 

When reincarnation is tied up with the concept of karma, it can be an absolutely horrific concept.

 

I concur. It would be one thing if we could remember what it was that we had done. It becomes something completely different when we cannot. If I recall correctly, the people in the NT thought that if someone was sick, crippled, etc that they or their parents had sinned and their sickness, cripple, etc was just a form of "just" punishment. Ick!

[blackpudd1n]

I totally missed this thread somehow, but I thought I'd chuck my two cents in, as I couldn't see that anyone else had had the same thought on the subject as thus far.

 

As far as the possibility of reincarnation, I don't think too much about it, because I cannot see how it is really possible to prove it, one way or another.

 

HOWEVER, when reincarnation is tied up in the concept of karma, I cannot stand the idea. Why should I be punished in this lifetime for something that I cannot even remember doing in a previous lifetime? How is that fair?

 

I came to this way of thinking when I was watching a segment on TV over a year ago, that can even now move me to tears. This lady ran an orphanage in a country where Buddhism was the primary belief system, and they asked the children what they would like for christmas. One little boy in a wheelchair responded that he would just like to ask Buddha to make him a better person, because he must have been such a horrible person in his previous life for his parents to not want him and for him to be in a wheelchair. To this day, I am utterly devastated that a little boy could think in such a way.

 

When reincarnation is tied up with the concept of karma, it can be an absolutely horrific concept.

 

I concur. It would be one thing if we could remember what it was that we had done. It becomes something completely different when we cannot. If I recall correctly, the people in the NT thought that if someone was sick, crippled, etc that they or their parents had sinned and their sickness, cripple, etc was just a form of "just" punishment. Ick!

 

Exactly. It's not so far removed from that christian concept of the "generational curse". I remember being preached at about how if I was sexually impure, I could be affecting the lives of my offspring for generations. Like, seriously??!!

[Zephie]

I totally missed this thread somehow, but I thought I'd chuck my two cents in, as I couldn't see that anyone else had had the same thought on the subject as thus far.

 

As far as the possibility of reincarnation, I don't think too much about it, because I cannot see how it is really possible to prove it, one way or another.

 

HOWEVER, when reincarnation is tied up in the concept of karma, I cannot stand the idea. Why should I be punished in this lifetime for something that I cannot even remember doing in a previous lifetime? How is that fair?

 

I came to this way of thinking when I was watching a segment on TV over a year ago, that can even now move me to tears. This lady ran an orphanage in a country where Buddhism was the primary belief system, and they asked the children what they would like for christmas. One little boy in a wheelchair responded that he would just like to ask Buddha to make him a better person, because he must have been such a horrible person in his previous life for his parents to not want him and for him to be in a wheelchair. To this day, I am utterly devastated that a little boy could think in such a way.

 

When reincarnation is tied up with the concept of karma, it can be an absolutely horrific concept.

 

I concur. It would be one thing if we could remember what it was that we had done. It becomes something completely different when we cannot. If I recall correctly, the people in the NT thought that if someone was sick, crippled, etc that they or their parents had sinned and their sickness, cripple, etc was just a form of "just" punishment. Ick!

 

Exactly. It's not so far removed from that christian concept of the "generational curse". I remember being preached at about how if I was sexually impure, I could be affecting the lives of my offspring for generations. Like, seriously??!!

 

Mind control much? I remember hearing the same. Like learning that my parents looked at porn and realizing that it was *their* fault I looked at porn....it's just insane. Telling someone shit like that just perpetuates self-fulfilling prophecies in some people and cause undue suffering in many.

[blackpudd1n]

Mind control much? I remember hearing the same. Like learning that my parents looked at porn and realizing that it was *their* fault I looked at porn....it's just insane. Telling someone shit like that just perpetuates self-fulfilling prophecies in some people and cause undue suffering in many.

 

+10!

[Rev R]

Karma should not be taught to children. Hell, most adults don't get it. It is sad that this poor kid thinks that he is an inherently terrible person through what I can only call a false Dharma (or bullshit if you prefer). My rationale is this: if the Buddha-Dharma is the teaching that leads to the cessation of suffering, any teaching that gives rise to suffering must be false and therefore discarded.

 

However, it must be said that there is a distinct difference between karmic reincarnation and karmic rebirth. Reincarnation implies the existence of a permanent self-nature that transmigrates between physical forms. Rebirth is simply the continued arising of the aggregates of existence.

 

Karma in Buddhism refers to volitional action and the fruit these actions bear. If we assume a permanent essence, then the "fruits" follow this essence throughout its transmigration. However, if there is no permanent self- as the teaching of anatman and emptiness implies- karma bears its fruit as a contribution to the conditions of future arising of the aggregates of existence. It is not just the Hilters and Ghandis that shape the world, we all contribute as active participants in existence.

 

Of course, this neither proves nor does it disprove reincarnation.

[VacuumFlux]

Karma should not be taught to children. Hell, most adults don't get it. It is sad that this poor kid thinks that he is an inherently terrible person through what I can only call a false Dharma (or bullshit if you prefer). My rationale is this: if the Buddha-Dharma is the teaching that leads to the cessation of suffering, any teaching that gives rise to suffering must be false and therefore discarded.

 

However, it must be said that there is a distinct difference between karmic reincarnation and karmic rebirth. Reincarnation implies the existence of a permanent self-nature that transmigrates between physical forms. Rebirth is simply the continued arising of the aggregates of existence.

 

Karma in Buddhism refers to volitional action and the fruit these actions bear. If we assume a permanent essence, then the "fruits" follow this essence throughout its transmigration. However, if there is no permanent self- as the teaching of anatman and emptiness implies- karma bears its fruit as a contribution to the conditions of future arising of the aggregates of existence. It is not just the Hilters and Ghandis that shape the world, we all contribute as active participants in existence.

 

Of course, this neither proves nor does it disprove reincarnation.

 

How inaccurate would it be to say that Buddhism's point about rebirth is closer to, say, being concerned about the environment in our lifetimes because of what we'll be leaving to our children?

[Rev R]

That is a bit off topic, not that I personally care.

 

I would venture to say that a similar interpretation, combined with thoughts on compassion and loving-kindness forms part of the motivation behind the "Socially Engaged Buddhism" movement.

[lunaticheathen]

*kicks Cooley in the shins and steals his lunch money*

 

But, yeah, seriously, fuck off with the "evidence, or you're woo-woo just like christians" here, or I'll go Kali on you.

[Noggy]

*kicks Cooley in the shins and steals his lunch money*

 

But, yeah, seriously, fuck off with the "evidence, or you're woo-woo just like christians" here, or I'll go Kali on you.

 

Meh, thats the problem with rules like we have in this little subforum we got here. This forum was made for people to deconvert from Christianity based on how fucking stupid it sounds to an outside person. So of course people are going to apply that rationale to all forms of belief. It's just about damn impossible to give anyone evidence of your own personal experience. So the people who haven't experienced say those who have are crazy, and the people who have have no way to say anything.

[lunaticheathen]

Noggy, the whole rest of the board allows atheists to poke at all theists. Grant the remaining theists of different kinds a little fucking sanctuary, since SOMEONE who MADE this board found it good enough to stay.

[lunaticheathen]

Also, assuming to know the ONE TRUE REASON why people leave christianity is rather funny.

[Noggy]

Also, assuming to know the ONE TRUE REASON why people leave christianity is rather funny.

 

I never said that it was the one true reason. But it is how most of the people on this site deconverted. I have read many testimonials and don't mind sticking by this fact.

 

And I definitely know the reason for the rules of this board. And I think they are a good thing, and I'm glad people can talk about things like reincarnation without being trolled every other post by someone goes LOL EVIDENCE. Just saying that it seems pretty obvious why the rule gets broken so much.

 

I was also pointing out how impossible it would be to even try to give evidence for this sort of stuff. So asking for evidence is just as pointless as getting pissed over someone asking for it.

[lunaticheathen]

I ask no one to agree with me, or believe what I do.

 

I owe no one any proof, ever. I refuse to even play that game anymore.

 

I'll tell those asking for proof of my PERSONAL BELIEFS to fuck off until the day I die.

[Deva]

Meh, thats the problem with rules like we have in this little subforum we got here. This forum was made for people to deconvert from Christianity based on how fucking stupid it sounds to an outside person. So of course people are going to apply that rationale to all forms of belief. It's just about damn impossible to give anyone evidence of your own personal experience. So the people who haven't experienced say those who have are crazy, and the people who have have no way to say anything.

 

I actually can see your point Noggy. That may be true for many people here. Not all, though.

 

It all comes down to what a person accepts as "evidence" doesn't it?

 

I completely expected a complaint to be aired once again about the rules of this section. I am just surprised it took so long.

[Noggy]

 

It all comes down to what a person accepts as "evidence" doesn't it?

 

I completely expected a complaint to be aired once again about the rules of this section. I am just surprised it took so long.

 

Yep. It's surprising that those who base their entire lives in the idea of "objective evidence" don't take the time to realize that there is no such thing.

[Zephie]

It all comes down to what a person accepts as "evidence" doesn't it?

 

I completely expected a complaint to be aired once again about the rules of this section. I am just surprised it took so long.

 

Yep. It's surprising that those who base their entire lives in the idea of "objective evidence" don't take the time to realize that there is no such thing.

 

Objective evidence would be subjective right? Since it's open to our personal experiences and what not. Am I correct in guessing at that? Not that this is an arguement for/against reincarnation. Just wondering if I've gotten the definition right...I could google it I guess.

[Noggy]

It all comes down to what a person accepts as "evidence" doesn't it?

 

I completely expected a complaint to be aired once again about the rules of this section. I am just surprised it took so long.

 

Yep. It's surprising that those who base their entire lives in the idea of "objective evidence" don't take the time to realize that there is no such thing.

 

Objective evidence would be subjective right? Since it's open to our personal experiences and what not. Am I correct in guessing at that? Not that this is an arguement for/against reincarnation. Just wondering if I've gotten the definition right...I could google it I guess.

 

Kind of. You're right in the fact that all evidence is subjective. There is no such thing as an objective ANYTHING. Everything that is to be observed, or thought about, or ANYTHING, has to be done from a viewpoint. Whether that viewpoint is human, or a cat, or God. It's still subjective. Perhaps there are viewpoints that are more "unbiased" than others, but you still have biases. Even if you don't know about them. We have many things about this universe that is impossible for us to know simply because we are human.

[Zephie]

So in asking for evidence of reincarnation...it would be subjective mostly...correct? I mean people have reported instances of being able to remember past lives and what not. Again, my opinion is that its possible. I dunno. Sticky subject to tackle.

[Noggy]

So in asking for evidence of reincarnation...it would be subjective mostly...correct? I mean people have reported instances of being able to remember past lives and what not. Again, my opinion is that its possible. I dunno. Sticky subject to tackle.

 

Yep. It would all be subjective, but any kind of evidence would be subjective. Even physics is subjective, as it is measured by people. The only thing you can say about even a hard science is not that it is OBJECTIVE TRUE, but that "Most people who looked at it also see the same thing".

 

In the case of reincarnation, it's even more difficult. I imagine eventually we would be able to verify it to as much of a degree as we can verify science today. Now that records are a lot better, someone 500 years from now claiming to have been you, it will be easy to look it up and see that you existed, then we can tell if its legit or not. As of now psychology just calls those people "crazy" and puts them away if they can harm anyone else, and if not, then they give them lots of medicine. Probably the wrong way to do it, but meh. We're learning I guess.

[Cooley]

You can believe whatever you want for all I care, but this is a public discussion space and my asking for evidence or rationale to support such extraordinary claims should not be viewed as offensive in any way.

[Cooley]

Kind of. You're right in the fact that all evidence is subjective. There is no such thing as an objective ANYTHING. Everything that is to be observed, or thought about, or ANYTHING, has to be done from a viewpoint. Whether that viewpoint is human, or a cat, or God. It's still subjective. Perhaps there are viewpoints that are more "unbiased" than others, but you still have biases. Even if you don't know about them. We have many things about this universe that is impossible for us to know simply because we are human.

 

 

I find myself agreeing with this, somewhat.