bronxo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I don't see any evidence for reincarnation. Does it happen? I don't know. I find the whole idea to be dubious at best, but who knows. Why is it relevant to believe in reincarnation, other than daydreaming about what you could have been in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 I don't see any evidence for reincarnation. Does it happen? I don't know. I find the whole idea to be dubious at best, but who knows. Why is it relevant to believe in reincarnation, other than daydreaming about what you could have been in the past? If you consider that possibly your life is endless - just open yourself to this idea - then what you do, what you think and what your habits are matters a lot more, it seems to me. If you think of extending your present way of thinking into the vastness of time - how would you eventually be in a thousand years, ten thousand years, on and on? If you start developing a skill, perhaps you retain some of that ability in the next life, and maybe are able to vastly improve on it. What is the limit of the human mind or consciousness? Or on the contrary, if you are sunk in corruption and a dissolute way of life now, and it continues, what might it be in a thousand years? What form would it take? This makes for some nice metaphysical, karmic speculation. I don't know, I just like to speculate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronxo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 So is it fair to say that you believe in reincarnation (if you do!) because it gives you a sense of purpose and not as much because you believe it to be true? I'm just thinking out loud here. But thanks for the answer! Now a belief in reincarnation makes more sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 So is it fair to say that you believe in reincarnation (if you do!) because it gives you a sense of purpose and not as much because you believe it to be true? I'm just thinking out loud here. But thanks for the answer! Now a belief in reincarnation makes more sense to me. Yes, I do believe its probably true. No 100% certainty possible, of course. Sure it gives an incentive to try to live a good and happy life and carry on trying to free oneself of all the baggage as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I believe in reincarnation because I remember past lives. It's as simple as that. I can see how past lives I've experienced have shaped who I am today. I'm not the same exact person, but I could say the same about my 5 year old self from this life. If you accept that your past in this life shapes you, things from past lives have effects as well. I've taken lessons from my memories, which are not "daydreams." I am also conscious that this is ongoing, and I am shaping any future lives I might have right now, with my actions and life in the present. I do my best to take lessons from mistakes and victories in all my lives, and use them to shape my future. Doesn't that sound better than "fuck up once and roast forever?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I actually don't know how I feel about it. It's possible in the sense that if we are the eyes of consciousness awakening to itself, then we have existed in many forms. What highlights and bits that are learned along the way may imprint into new forms being born along the way and we just happen with that imprint which we carry forward and add to with our own life experiences. I suppose that's even scientifically possible if you try to explain the function for NDE's from an evolutionary purpose, i.e, the experience of life-review which is an earmark of NDE's (I experienced it myself). What function can that possibly serve, but perhaps some karmic purpose towards ultimate enlightenment. Personally, I'm pondering the idea that maybe I was a snake before this life. Which of course is interesting because most people experience seeing themselves as some other human. Either that, or I'm tapping into the naga realm somehow. Why not. All life is interconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I actually don't know how I feel about it. It's possible in the sense that if we are the eyes of consciousness awakening to itself, then we have existed in many forms. What highlights and bits that are learned along the way may imprint into new forms being born along the way and we just happen with that imprint which we carry forward and add to with our own life experiences. I suppose that's even scientifically possible if you try to explain the function for NDE's from an evolutionary purpose, i.e, the experience of life-review which is an earmark of NDE's (I experienced it myself). What function can that possibly serve, but perhaps some karmic purpose towards ultimate enlightenment. Personally, I'm pondering the idea that maybe I was a snake before this life. Which of course is interesting because most people experience seeing themselves as some other human. Either that, or I'm tapping into the naga realm somehow. Why not. All life is interconnected. I wouldn't be surprised if you were Naga in the past life, AM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I actually don't know how I feel about it. It's possible in the sense that if we are the eyes of consciousness awakening to itself, then we have existed in many forms. What highlights and bits that are learned along the way may imprint into new forms being born along the way and we just happen with that imprint which we carry forward and add to with our own life experiences. I suppose that's even scientifically possible if you try to explain the function for NDE's from an evolutionary purpose, i.e, the experience of life-review which is an earmark of NDE's (I experienced it myself). What function can that possibly serve, but perhaps some karmic purpose towards ultimate enlightenment. Personally, I'm pondering the idea that maybe I was a snake before this life. Which of course is interesting because most people experience seeing themselves as some other human. Either that, or I'm tapping into the naga realm somehow. Why not. All life is interconnected. I wouldn't be surprised if you were Naga in the past life, AM. Why is that? I don't know much about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 In D&D, nagas are pretty badass, if I remember correctly. So I'm cool with the idea of AM being one. I've had experiences that lead me to wonder if reincarnation might be possible and one that made me realize how easy it can be for some folks to think that when there are other explanations for some of the supernatural stuff we perceive, but I admit it's not a topic I've got a lot of opinions on. I haven't seen much about it that compels me to wholeheartedly accept it, but if something about it speaks to someone else, it doesn't bother me to live and let live. Or, as my smartphone wants to correct me to say, love and let love. This may a realm of spirituality that is purely subjective, and there are probably as many confounding examples like Luna's as are there are confounded ones like that one of mine. I'm glad to just stay open-minded and see where it leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 I actually don't know how I feel about it. It's possible in the sense that if we are the eyes of consciousness awakening to itself, then we have existed in many forms. What highlights and bits that are learned along the way may imprint into new forms being born along the way and we just happen with that imprint which we carry forward and add to with our own life experiences. I suppose that's even scientifically possible if you try to explain the function for NDE's from an evolutionary purpose, i.e, the experience of life-review which is an earmark of NDE's (I experienced it myself). What function can that possibly serve, but perhaps some karmic purpose towards ultimate enlightenment. Personally, I'm pondering the idea that maybe I was a snake before this life. Which of course is interesting because most people experience seeing themselves as some other human. Either that, or I'm tapping into the naga realm somehow. Why not. All life is interconnected. I wouldn't be surprised if you were Naga in the past life, AM. Why is that? I don't know much about them. Nagas: http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm Powerful and impressive beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I did see that link yesterday as well after a Tibetan Buddhist friend of mine mentioned Nagas to me after I brought up to him how that in my meditations as I move into deep altered states, I continually have this 'vision' of a white snake that I end up identifying as me, and from that, as I embrace it, it opens into a lotus blossom and light flows from it into the world. At first it was uncomfortable to me as snakes in Western cultural represent evil, yet I knew it wasn't. It became a matter of trusting my intuition despite that cultural conditioning. It is an image that comes back again and again for me and plays a fairly dominant role. I asked him about it over tea yesterday and he explained a little about them and told me to do a Google search for Buddhism Nagas Realm. It's really fascinating, and I'm not sure what to make of it. What I had been interpreting that as is that the serpent in my meditations is a symbol of the archaic conscious, desiring release into the the emergent conscious, the higher mind, into Divine light. When I fully go with the symbol in my meditation, it then opens into higher light, and into the world. It moves up from the earth to the Divine. I take is as highly symbolic of the process of awakening to Divine Mind. But yet, in other contexts it very specifically becomes my personal identification. I could go on, but to say the least I'm sure to anyone who has never experienced states of pseudo-nirvana in meditation, all this sounds really strange. Trust me, it's not. I understand the nature of symbolic mind, arising out of the non-verbal centers of the brain, exposing and revealing the subconscious to the conscious mind through both primitive and archetypal symbols. Anyone who hasn't experienced that, doesn't practice that, will really not be able get what that is. It has to be experienced first hand. Still not sure about the idea of reincarnation per se', but oddly perhaps, to my strange surprise the Naga represents something on a deep subconscious level to me, from that ground unconscious perhaps. Perhaps I was just waiting to be human so I could seek enlightenment. Who knows? P.S. I just read some more of that link (haven't finished it yet). I suddenly I see bowls filled with milk around my house in some sort of offering to me, then I think in fact I might be a Naga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 there are 2 things people are saying, it's about a 50/50 split. 1. we are material, we die, our atoms break down and form other things, that is all. 2. we have a soul that lives within us and lives on after our atoms break down and form other things. Meh, there is no way to know either way at this time. Besides, there are many more options than this, many of which has been said in this thread. Of course these two are the most popular, and what the other interpretations often get interpreted as. Freeze! This is the evidence police! Umm... I know you were making humor. This is where the evidence thing started yes? Karma... Could be considered in both models. One life only, and multiple lives. I just find information, collect data and look at numbers. Sometimes I go on instincts. Maybe there's something to say about karma in a one and only one lifetime model, but it's not like if you have a guy who steals his whole life who will have his karma return by being robbed. It's that people who knew him any length of time would probably just want to kick his ass. This would be an example of causality. As to passing causality from deeds of one lifetime to conditions of another, this seems to me another prescribed way to think which might be used to influence and/or control how people behave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 Maybe there's something to say about karma in a one and only one lifetime model, but it's not like if you have a guy who steals his whole life who will have his karma return by being robbed. It's that people who knew him any length of time would probably just want to kick his ass. This would be an example of causality. As to passing causality from deeds of one lifetime to conditions of another, this seems to me another prescribed way to think which might be used to influence and/or control how people behave. We live in an infinite net of causality - if you accept reincarnation, it IS infinite. In the Buddhist view, there is no beginning point -we have lived so many lives that only a fully enlightened Buddha could trace all of it out. I don't believe in a cosmic score keeper - I don't think it is like someone robbing stores and then getting robbed. Its not that kind of exact correlation. As you say, this could easily be used to control people. I don't think reality works that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 For my personal view on reincarnation, I think it is meh. It implies a difference between inward and outward, and I'm not too much of a fan between distinguishing between that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 It implies a difference between inward and outward, and I'm not too much of a fan between distinguishing between that. I would be interested in how you think it "implies a difference between inward and outward". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 It implies a difference between inward and outward, and I'm not too much of a fan between distinguishing between that. I would be interested in how you think it "implies a difference between inward and outward". Reincarnation implies something is being reincarnated. That thing would have to be separate and distinct from everything else, otherwise it wouldn't have an intimate connection with something in the past. To distinguish a certain past life and to say that it belong to who I am would be a mistake, I think. Maybe a more liberal definition of reincarnation as just being karma would work. But in that case phones are reincarnated, and staplers, and chairs. In which case I think the word reincarnate lost its meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 Reincarnation implies something is being reincarnated. That thing would have to be separate and distinct from everything else, otherwise it wouldn't have an intimate connection with something in the past. To distinguish a certain past life and to say that it belong to who I am would be a mistake, I think. Maybe a more liberal definition of reincarnation as just being karma would work. But in that case phones are reincarnated, and staplers, and chairs. In which case I think the word reincarnate lost its meaning. I don't know exactly how reincarnation works. I am not sure the reincarnated mind-stream, consciousness, or whatever it is, would necessarily be limited to a single body in the next life - In that sense I agree with you and I certainly agree that a "more liberal definition" such as you describe, would not be meaningful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Reincarnation implies something is being reincarnated. That thing would have to be separate and distinct from everything else, otherwise it wouldn't have an intimate connection with something in the past. To distinguish a certain past life and to say that it belong to who I am would be a mistake, I think. Maybe a more liberal definition of reincarnation as just being karma would work. But in that case phones are reincarnated, and staplers, and chairs. In which case I think the word reincarnate lost its meaning. I don't know exactly how reincarnation works. I am not sure the reincarnated mind-stream, consciousness, or whatever it is, would necessarily be limited to a single body in the next life - In that sense I agree with you and I certainly agree that a "more liberal definition" such as you describe, would not be meaningful. If it's not limited, then I imagine it doesn't count as reincarnation. Isn't reincarnation the remaking of a being from a previous being? Therefore you have a few problems there. You are saying that the previous being has a soul, which would make it separate and distinct from everything else, and you are saying that soul or "scream" will manifest itself in another being. And that these souls are separate and unique from other souls. Otherwise everyone would reincarnated as everyone everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 I don't like the word "soul," which implies an unchanging, static entity. I said "mind-stream" and I mean an aggregate of habits and tendencies that continues in some form as an emanation in one or many bodies. It is not unchanging, just as you are not at present unchanging. Yet, "you" still seem to have a continuity and that will remain. Is there anything actually separate and unique even now? No, but that is our dualistic perception - but we generally don't realize that now. Death does not necessarily change that ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Is there anything actually separate and unique even now? No, but that is our dualistic perception - but we generally don't realize that now. This is why I don't support the idea of reincarnation. It seems contradictory to this statement. That is, that reincarnation is, as you implied, something unique that gets carried on over a period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 Its not actually unique, it seems to be unique - that is our unenlightened perception of ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't think reincarnation exists. If it exists, it might not be as we know it. To me, it's an interesting thought experiment and a way of conceptualising how alternatives to this way of life and death functions. It also makes great stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 A little off-topic, just caught up on the last few pages. I do enjoy taking a little walk around this section of the forum, even though I don't contribute much. When it comes to everything, I have simply that which I know, and that which I don't know. For that reason, on matters of 'that which I don't know', I prefer not say anything unless I actually have something to say. I may be an atheist, but I do have a father who is a pagan of the celtic traditions. People do have many reasons for believing the various things that they do, and so long as those beliefs do not cause themselves or anyone else harm, I don't really have an issue with discussions like these. I find them rather interesting. But then, I do find people a fascinating puzzle, and I do like hearing a person's reasons for their beliefs, even if I personally disagree. Anyway, back on-topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 People do have many reasons for believing the various things that they do, and so long as those beliefs do not cause themselves or anyone else harm, I don't really have an issue with discussions like these. I find them rather interesting. But then, I do find people a fascinating puzzle, and I do like hearing a person's reasons for their beliefs, even if I personally disagree. Anyway, back on-topic I appreciate that, Blackpudd. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilcoppertop Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I was always very much against the idea of reincarnation, what with being a fundy and all...but after being told numerous times that I'm an "old soul" (ironically it mostly came from Christians!) I decided to find out what that REALLY means. I like the idea of reincarnation for a few reasons. First, I'm still a rather new deconvert so I haven't quite reconciled myself to the idea of ceasing to exist after I die. Unlike so many other people, it's not a comforting idea to me. Another reason why I like the idea of reincarnation is that it feels like a second chance. Or a third. Or a fifty-fourth. Or whatever. Another chance to get things right. But that's probably because I have always had a hard time forgiving myself for only being human and not being perfect. In a way it makes me feel like maybe I could relax a little if reincarnation is true. After all, if I don't get it all right this time, I can try again in another life. No big deal. I don't believe in reincarnation but I don't completely disbelieve it either. Like practically every other thing one could possibly have a belief in, I am agnostic about this. I have no memories of past lives and haven't really read much of other people's personal stories beyond what has been presented here (and luna, your memories intrigue me. Thank you for sharing them!). I really don't know much about this subject or the different views people can have on it. I don't even have a clue about how plausible it is. For me it is currently just an idea I like the sounds of and could consider believing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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