Reincarnation

[owen652]

i'm interested to know why luna believes her experiences are evidence of past lives, especially when she comes from a Christian background. you presumably believe that the spiritual experiences of Christians are false and/or products of the mind? their experiences are just as vivid. i mean, there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who will swear blind that they have been abducted by aliens. same with those who have very real memories of going to Hell or Heaven and coming back again. Their experiences are just as real to them as yours are to you. should we validate those experiences as authentic?

 

In the wise words of Thom Yorke: "Just cos you feel it, doesn't mean it's there"

[Antlerman]

you presumably believe that the spiritual experiences of Christians are false and/or products of the mind?

I'm not Luna but I'd like to take a stab at this. I do not believe the experiences of Christians are false. I believe how they understand and interpret them is embedded within their culture, and as conclusions of the nature and significance of those experiences, I will disagree with them for myself. To them those conclusions are valid. That they experienced something, is only disputable as to whether or not they are being sincere or a making up a lie about something they never actually did experience.

 

As for "products of the mind", well, that can be said for every single experience of your life if you wish to go that path of reductionism. Your love for you spouse you believe you have can be called a 'product of the mind' too. But there are some serious flaws in gutting out the entire content of experience that is a knowledge in and of itself had no other way than but by actual experience.

 

i mean, there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who will swear blind that they have been abducted by aliens

Hundreds of thousands? That sounds pretty exaggerated. But again, that they may have experienced something that later their mind interprets as aliens is not so much the question. You have to look at a lot factors, such as first of all the actually stability of that individuals mind. They could be schizophrenics. Personally, I do not equate claims of alien abductions to be of the same phenomena of spiritual experience. I think they are a very different order of experience, coming from a very different place.

 

But that in this case, hundreds of thousands of people, claim to have spiritual experiences, seeing their various deities and whatnot, I would consider this valid. That those gods are physical entities that you can either prove or disprove like a Yeti, is to utterly misunderstand the nature of what they are and the validity of the experience.

 

same with those who have very real memories of going to Hell or Heaven and coming back again. Their experiences are just as real to them as yours are to you. should we validate those experiences as authentic?

Yes. That heaven and hell are literal places like going to Chicago, that is valid understanding only for those who think in purely mythological terms the way a child might. Their experiences of a heaven or a hell, are in fact valid experiences. People experience these all the time in NDEs. (Hell less often, and when they do they are always simply the observer, never being fried themselves).

 

In the wise words of Thom Yorke: "Just cos you feel it, doesn't mean it's there"

You quote a rock star as source of philosophical depth?

[Akheia]

Interesting question, Owen. I think that these experiences are valid in the sense that they all come from that spiritual well inside each person. I don't discount the experiences I had while a fundamentalist, but I do also realize that they feel precisely the same as experiences I've had in other religions and even while doing things that weren't overtly religious at all but which felt very spiritual. Though I'm 100% positive there isn't a Judeo-Christian god purely because I can so easily debunk, refute, and rebut his holy book's specific claims, I'm also sure that spirituality is still a valid human experience. As AM said, I think that people tend to funnel experiences through their own viewpoints and cultural expectations, which is why NDEs almost always mirror the observer's own cultural expectations of life after death. If there is a divine, then I'm willing to accept that there are lots of ways people use to figure out how to connect with it. I'm grateful to live in an era where we have such a plethora of philosophies and religious systems that everybody pretty much has something, if they want it--or nothing at all, if they don't. I'm totally cool with either solution and see nothing wrong with accepting the validity in general of a spiritual experience.

 

Hey, AM, nothing wrong with quoting popular figures. My favorite star quote: "I'm a meathead." -- Keanu Reeves

[Antlerman]

One of the most unexpected ironies for me was when I first started going deep into meditative practices, that it struck me that this is what I was doing when I was a Christian! The difference is that it wasn't limited by their extraneous teachings of a mythological god with demanding expectations of you. It was that, except freed to swim into infinite Ocean, as I sometimes call it. The nature of the forms took on a whole different level of depth. A good way to understand this is in terms of heterarchy and hierarchy. It is the same Spirit at all levels, but the depth of experience chances based on how mature our cognitive, social, and emotional structures are.

 

If you're interested in reading my thoughts about NDE's read here starting at this post down a few in this thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50401-somethings-i-still-struggle-with/page__view__findpost__p__735591

[Akheia]

I saw that; it was an interesting perspective. I'm inclined to think that most NDEs are kind of cultural-expectation in nature, the form of which largely "taught" to us (like the one described by that poor little boy in the latest Jesus glurge I saw at a supermarket a month ago), but sometimes life throws us a curveball in the form of a personal experience that doesn't fit expectations.

 

The excessive and unreasonable demands, guilt, and hatred of critical analysis that mark Christianity all seem like a detriment to true understanding. Once I got away from a magic sky fairy that cared what I did with my genitals or even what configuration they took, I found myself able to really grow as a person. Reincarnation itself doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me from a spiritual perspective; many religions in the past and present have included it as a feature. Even Christianity during the Renaissance kind of got into that mindset with their "renaming" practices for children. Humanity really, really seems to want this to be true. I'm just not sure how to address it in everyday life or how much weight to put upon it in my activities. I'm a "Sunday pagan" if anything, and the one thing I don't want to fall into again is zealotry.

[Denyoz]

Is reincarnation valid or possible? What is the evidence for it and is it convincing to you, why or why not?

 

Based on what I have observed and experienced in the last 48 years, I do not believe in reincarnation. The soul, if it exists, has no memory. With the advent of computers, everybody now knows that memory is physical, not spiritual. I believe memory is stored in the brain, and when you die, you lose your memory. All my life I was surrounded by babies, and with each new baby you have to start the learning process from scratch. You can see that every newborn is seeing the world for the first time.

[owen652]

you presumably believe that the spiritual experiences of Christians are false and/or products of the mind?

I'm not Luna but I'd like to take a stab at this. I do not believe the experiences of Christians are false. I believe how they understand and interpret them is embedded within their culture, and as conclusions of the nature and significance of those experiences, I will disagree with them for myself. To them those conclusions are valid. That they experienced something, is only disputable as to whether or not they are being sincere or a making up a lie about something they never actually did experience.

 

As for "products of the mind", well, that can be said for every single experience of your life if you wish to go that path of reductionism. Your love for you spouse you believe you have can be called a 'product of the mind' too. But there are some serious flaws in gutting out the entire content of experience that is a knowledge in and of itself had no other way than but by actual experience.

 

i mean, there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who will swear blind that they have been abducted by aliens

Hundreds of thousands? That sounds pretty exaggerated. But again, that they may have experienced something that later their mind interprets as aliens is not so much the question. You have to look at a lot factors, such as first of all the actually stability of that individuals mind. They could be schizophrenics. Personally, I do not equate claims of alien abductions to be of the same phenomena of spiritual experience. I think they are a very different order of experience, coming from a very different place.

 

But that in this case, hundreds of thousands of people, claim to have spiritual experiences, seeing their various deities and whatnot, I would consider this valid. That those gods are physical entities that you can either prove or disprove like a Yeti, is to utterly misunderstand the nature of what they are and the validity of the experience.

 

same with those who have very real memories of going to Hell or Heaven and coming back again. Their experiences are just as real to them as yours are to you. should we validate those experiences as authentic?

Yes. That heaven and hell are literal places like going to Chicago, that is valid understanding only for those who think in purely mythological terms the way a child might. Their experiences of a heaven or a hell, are in fact valid experiences. People experience these all the time in NDEs. (Hell less often, and when they do they are always simply the observer, never being fried themselves).

 

In the wise words of Thom Yorke: "Just cos you feel it, doesn't mean it's there"

You quote a rock star as source of philosophical depth?

 

I agree that all these varied experiences are perfectly valid ones , and to the person involved they are very real. I'm even prepared to accept that they could all be manifestations of the same all-encompassing spiritual dimension, albeit on different levels. just as everyone has a different personality and experiences the physical world with greatly differing sensibilities, perhaps they experience the spiritual world in completely different ways. In relation to Luna's beliefs, though, I was simply asking whether she was replacing one assertion (that subjective christian spiritual experience is validated objectively) with another (that the existence of past lives is validated objectively). That seems to be what she is asserting; that because she has experienced vivid visions and memories, that past lives are real. I could be wrong though; maybe that's not what she meant.

 

The figures for alien abductions may be exaggerated, but not by much. Depending on which surveys you want to believe, somewhere between 1 and 2 percent of the US population claim to have experienced some form of this. But yeah, the numbers don't really matter. Can you explain why these experiences are necessarily of a different order to those of other, more 'spiritual' experiences of religious ecstasy or meditative states? or more particularly, past lives? In both cases you have a person claiming a profound physical and spiritual relocation. And is there any reason to think that these aren't the product of the tickling of the frontal lobe?

 

I do apologize for quoting a rock star. From now on I will only quote dead pederasts.

[Denyoz]

I do apologize for quoting a rock star. From now on I will only quote dead pederasts.

 

Aaaah ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! haaaa! *rolling on the floor pounding my fists* Oops, sorry. Back to serious topic.

[Antlerman]

just as everyone has a different personality and experiences the physical world with greatly differing sensibilities, perhaps they experience the spiritual world in completely different ways.

I would qualify that as saying they experience it from various perspectives, but the experience itself, the raw, unmediated experience is the same and not "completely different". All humans experience hunger, desire, thirst, emotions, etc. What all those things mean to them will vary, especially when you move into more 'fuzzy' areas such as culture. All humans however experience culture in basically the same way - it impacts their lives. Their experience of their culture of course varies.

 

Can you explain why these experiences are necessarily of a different order to those of other, more 'spiritual' experiences of religious ecstasy or meditative states? or more particularly, past lives? In both cases you have a person claiming a profound physical and spiritual relocation. And is there any reason to think that these aren't the product of the tickling of the frontal lobe?

I would say that they likely are higher experiences through the mind and its biophysical component the brain. I will also say that spiritual experience likewise occurs like this. Again, I have a real problem taking the reductionist belief that mind is a 'product of the brain'. I believe mind to transcend brain, and that spiritual experience transcends mind. They are not separate from the physical, but are not equatable to the physical, which is what you are saying when you say a "product" of the brain. That's not good science, to be blunt.

 

To the question of alien abductions, from what little I understand of them (I hardly have delved into them much), that there can be a spiritual component to them, a sense of bliss or oneness with God. This makes sense from a neurological point of view. A shadow self experience emerges through the non-verbal centers in the right hippocampus taking the form of cultural symbols; fear and anxiety accompanies the experience flooding the right amygdala, to the point of frozen terror; the completely full right amygdala releases abruptly over the connecting pathway to the left amygdala, and the experience is bliss in a non-verbal reality (a completely full left amygdala and a completely full right hippocampus). They experience God. So yes, an alien abduction may, from what very little I understand of them, have spiritual component to them.

 

Where I would qualify them as of a different order is that in spiritual practice, these sorts of journeys into the subconscious and transcendent realms within the psyche have a clear focus and overall transformative purpose on a evolutionary path. Anyone at anytime can have a spiritual experience, even if it has the symbol of little green men in it, but the purpose of penetrating the spiritual domains within us is towards higher realization. One is a blip, the other a discipline. The end results are radically different, one towards belief in little green men, the other towards the Realization of the Self.

 

I do apologize for quoting a rock star. From now on I will only quote dead pederasts.

What, no middle ground? Either an unqualified pop-musician cited as a font of knowledge, or dead pedophiles? Where's reason here? If I'm quote to quote someone as a source of knowledge and wisdom, I try to make them those knowledgeable within the fields being spoken about.

[Rev R]

I do apologize for quoting a rock star. From now on I will only quote dead pederasts.

What, no middle ground? Either an unqualified pop-musician cited as a font of knowledge, or dead pedophiles? Where's reason here? If I'm quote to quote someone as a source of knowledge and wisdom, I try to make them those knowledgeable within the fields being spoken about.

 

Who is better qualified to speak of wisdom if not one who is arguably a poet?

[lunaticheathen]

I was not asserting any objective truth in anything I was saying.

 

I remember past lives, therefore I believe in them.

 

I never experienced any spiritual happenings within a Christian context, ever. I know others have. I am not them, and I can only be me. I don't pass judgement upon the spiritual experiences (or lack thereof) of others. I can offer opinions when asked, but I will still, at the end of the day, plead ignorance, even with those that have experiences that mirror mine.

 

I have various opinions on what Christians believe and experience, but the only reason I believe the way I do is because it is what I have experienced, and it fits with what I know and feel. I have no other justification. I don't evangelize my points. They're mine. You may ask what they are, but the only "evidence" I can give is highly subjective and anecdotal. If that's not "good enough," so be it.

[Deva]

Unlike Luna, I don't have any memories I can identify as past lives. Yet, I seem to just have this inner certainty that this life isn't all. It doesn't make sense to me on some very deep level that consciousness ends at the death of the body. Like a very strong intuition. Its persuasive to me. Yet I can't be dogmatic about it, and don't intend to.

[Antlerman]

I do apologize for quoting a rock star. From now on I will only quote dead pederasts.

What, no middle ground? Either an unqualified pop-musician cited as a font of knowledge, or dead pedophiles? Where's reason here? If I'm quote to quote someone as a source of knowledge and wisdom, I try to make them those knowledgeable within the fields being spoken about.

 

Who is better qualified to speak of wisdom if not one who is arguably a poet?

I did think of that and I agree. Just not necessarily in this context.

[Will02]

It's not like I can make a video of my past life experience and post it on the internet. For me, it's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of experience. Although I call myself an atheist, my atheism is only limited to biblegod. I know that biblegod doesn't exist because I have exhaustively researched its origins and I can see it for what it is. Even in my atheism, I never once dismissed spirituality. To discount it I would have to ignore my own experiences in that area. Anyone can develop sensitivity to spiritual stuff, (though some people seem naturally predisposed to it) but it is often difficult to deliberately do it. My experiences are useless to convince other people with because spiritual experiences can't be replicated on demand in a way that everyone can clearly see.

 

It is possible to be an atheist and still be spiritual at the same time; the only difference is that I've never considered myself a "pure" or hard-line atheist. I'm more of a bizarre atheist/pagan mix. Even for me, the spiritual stuff is not an everyday thing, and it doesn't exert much influence over who I am on a day to day basis. It's just one more way to understand the world instead of being the way. Trying to understand the world solely through the spiritual is equally limiting as trying to understand it in a purely materialistic sense.

[Zephie]

I've had people tell me that some issues I am having are as a result of past lives. I'm not sure I'd want to remember them anyway...

[lunaticheathen]

I've had people tell me that some issues I am having are as a result of past lives. I'm not sure I'd want to remember them anyway...

 

Certainly, not all of my memories are good ones. In fact, I'd say that it's about 75% pain, 25% good. And that's optimistic. Probably.

 

There is nothing glamorous or elevating about remembering past lives, for me. I try to learn from it, make something better out of something that more often than not, causes me enormous pain. It also scrambles my brain. There are a lot of things I'd rather forget, not know - but I have to make it useful, somehow.

 

My spirituality is often about getting dirty and working through pain - I'm not living on a glittery unicorn fart cloud, I can tell you that.

[Zephie]

I've had people tell me that some issues I am having are as a result of past lives. I'm not sure I'd want to remember them anyway...

 

Certainly, not all of my memories are good ones. In fact, I'd say that it's about 75% pain, 25% good. And that's optimistic. Probably.

 

There is nothing glamorous or elevating about remembering past lives, for me. I try to learn from it, make something better out of something that more often than not, causes me enormous pain. It also scrambles my brain. There are a lot of things I'd rather forget, not know - but I have to make it useful, somehow.

 

My spirituality is often about getting dirty and working through pain - I'm not living on a glittery unicorn fart cloud, I can tell you that.

 

I'm still recovering from that 1st intense, spiritually crippling deliverance session I went through 2 years ago. I think learning from those past experiences can give wisdom for present circumstances.

[owen652]

Antlerman, get out of the house once in a while.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, get out of the house once in a while.

I get out plenty. I just have a passion for understanding, rather than just flitting about the day seeking distractions from ourselves. That leaves one pretty much riding the surfaces of experience rather than exploring into the depths beneath them. It's all how we choose to live our lives.

[Noggy]

Antlerman, get out of the house once in a while.

 

You can learn everything without even looking out the window.

[Denyoz]

Antlerman, get out of the house once in a while.

 

You can learn everything without even looking out the window.

 

Exactly. All you need is Microsoft Windows.

[Akheia]

And Wikipedia.

[LightForce]

I never gave past lives a thought until I became a mother. I know there are lots of mothers in the world but my experience has been a spiritual one, maybe because I am an older mom. My son came to be my teacher and lucky for me, I have listened.

 

My ten year old son wouldn't wear pants with a zipper nor anything that resembles a zipper. Not even the fake look of a zipper. This has got to be from a past life. When he was three, I was reading a book to him and came to a word that I had never seen nor could I pronounce it. I was trying to pronounce it and my son said the word correctly. I was amazed.

 

There is an energy modality called Yuen Method, founded by Dr. Kam Yuen, who knows how to determine if a certain behavior or ailment comes from a past life. He is a chiropractor and a Kung Fu Grand Master who combined marshal arts with western medicine and many energy modalities in order to find healing and balance for the Mind/Body/Spirit. He uses his intuition, his feelings, to determine the non-physical reason for a problem, then puts it on the spine with his thoughts. The Midline in the place of neutrality in marshal arts. So he neutralizes the issue and it becomes a non-issue.

 

We are vibrations and if our vibration is at a different frequency, then we won't resonate with certain ideas, like past lives. Some people might raise their vibrations while still in this life time and others won't. The fastest way to raise your vibration is to be grateful but many people must go through pain to get to the point where they let go of control of our lives. It is the act of letting go that brings us to a higher consciousness and it the letting go in becoming a Christian that brings new life to a painful one. It is the Letting Go in Matrix Energetics that transforms people.

 

I started another thread within this thread. It is all connnected. One thing leads to another.

 

Believing in past lives is bringing me to a new perspective shift, where I don't have to worry about people's current problems because they belong to them and really are no business of mine. They will come back to refine what they are supposed to learn. I might be a stepping stone for some but for others my experiences have no meaning because they must learn it for themselves.

 

I have come to this way of thinking from a place of acute pain only to be transformed in a way that I thought never was possible. We are all on a journey. We can understand that everything is useful, even our time in the Christian faith. I am thankful for my life, my past lives, and my future lives.

[LightForce]

I've had people tell me that some issues I am having are as a result of past lives. I'm not sure I'd want to remember them anyway...

 

Certainly, not all of my memories are good ones. In fact, I'd say that it's about 75% pain, 25% good. And that's optimistic. Probably.

 

There is nothing glamorous or elevating about remembering past lives, for me. I try to learn from it, make something better out of something that more often than not, causes me enormous pain. It also scrambles my brain. There are a lot of things I'd rather forget, not know - but I have to make it useful, somehow.

 

I agree with you. The memories can and need to be deleted. That is what the Yuen Method does. It deletes the memory/experience. I am not interested in regression of any kind. Ho'oponopono also deletes/cleans the memories.

[lunaticheathen]

I've had people tell me that some issues I am having are as a result of past lives. I'm not sure I'd want to remember them anyway...

 

Certainly, not all of my memories are good ones. In fact, I'd say that it's about 75% pain, 25% good. And that's optimistic. Probably.

 

There is nothing glamorous or elevating about remembering past lives, for me. I try to learn from it, make something better out of something that more often than not, causes me enormous pain. It also scrambles my brain. There are a lot of things I'd rather forget, not know - but I have to make it useful, somehow.

 

I agree with you. The memories can and need to be deleted. That is what the Yuen Method does. It deletes the memory/experience. I am not interested in regression of any kind. Ho'oponopono also deletes/cleans the memories.

 

I don't think I said I needed the memories gone. I said I would like them gone, but since they're there, I choose to learn something from them. Some painful memories are lessons. I don't believe I have the wisdom enough to know if I should erase any part of my past from my mind. I'm skeptical that anyone else has the necessary wisdom to decide that for me either.