I Came Out To My Former Pastor

[London]

It is an observation of mine that someone who is truly knowledgable can explain difficult concepts easily and in such a way that someone without much understanding can comprehend. I have also found that the truly knowledgable enjoy dispelling ignorance any time they get a chance, and will therefore happily discuss and answer questions from someone who doesn't know quite so much.

 

This is so true. I had a really amazing boss who was like this. I learned so much from her. She taught me things I never thought I would use outside that job, I was wrong, some of that information has come in handy. I am so thankful that I took the time to listen to her, and I am so thankful that she cared enough to educate me.

 

There was never a time when she had an attitude that she was smarter than anyone else. I am a very lucky person to have worked for her.

[jblueep]

You seem to have an established friendship and rapport with this woman.

 

Given that she can't change your mid on the issue of religion and you can't change her mind on the issue either, do you want to pursue this particular issue with her?

 

I just see it as pointless and likely to cause bad feeling.

 

Sometimes you can either be right OR have a relationship - but not both!

 

This was the only conversation I intend to start with her in this subject area. It was just a coming out of sorts. I'll be happy to continue the conversation only if she wants to and initiates it.

[blackpudd1n]

It is an observation of mine that someone who is truly knowledgable can explain difficult concepts easily and in such a way that someone without much understanding can comprehend. I have also found that the truly knowledgable enjoy dispelling ignorance any time they get a chance, and will therefore happily discuss and answer questions from someone who doesn't know quite so much.

 

This is so true. I had a really amazing boss who was like this. I learned so much from her. She taught me things I never thought I would use outside that job, I was wrong, some of that information has come in handy. I am so thankful that I took the time to listen to her, and I am so thankful that she cared enough to educate me.

 

There was never a time when she had an attitude that she was smarter than anyone else. I am a very lucky person to have worked for her.

 

That's just it. For people like that, it's not a matter of intelligence, but knowledge. They have knowledge that you don't, and it's just a matter of imparting that knowledge to you. When it comes to knowledge, intelligence really doesn't come into play. If you really want to know, you will find out.

 

I don't have much time, really, for IQ levels and all that rot. It has been scientifically proven, with MRI's and brain scans, that the areas of the brain that we excercise are the ones that strengthen. Not only that, but trauma can slow down development, too. So ultimately, we all have quite a measure of control over our own ability to think, question, and, yes, intelligence. The vast majority of people are not stuck with the intelligence levels that they were born with.

[freeasabird]

It is an observation of mine that someone who is truly knowledgable can explain difficult concepts easily and in such a way that someone without much understanding can comprehend. I have also found that the truly knowledgable enjoy dispelling ignorance any time they get a chance, and will therefore happily discuss and answer questions from someone who doesn't know quite so much.

 

In light of these observations, whatever your former pastor's knowledge, I cannot put much stock into her claims of intelligence or knowledge, because, quite simply, much of what she wrote was not only mumbo-jumbo, but very unclear and confusing.

 

Not only that, but she didn't even really want to talk about it. People who are truly passionate about a subject will jump at any chance to discuss it. Case in point, start a conversation with me about mental health issues. I jump at any chance to dispel some of the stigma and stereotype surrounding it. I love it when people ask me questions about my experiences with bipolar. I love finding out about new research on the topic. But your ex-pastor's wife didn't do that. And that is rather interesting, I think.

 

Very astute observation indeed.

[Akheia]

Definitely astute. I'm the same way about history. It's curious that P is aware that her arguments don't hold water, but still clings to them. I'm suspicious that her assertions of superior intelligence are just a mask for her own defensiveness.

[TortillaLips]

It is real simple. No emperical evidence, then it is bull shit.

 

Done.

[jblueep]

After a week long silence, I stopped by the church last night after mid-week services were over. I walked in to tell her that I loved her and then I gave her a hug and kiss on the cheek. We didn't really say anything, and it wasn't awkward at all at least from my perspective. However, this morning, I received the following continuation of our email conversation. She is basically ending our friendship.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

P to Me

 

Hey....I've searched for a way to respond to your new stance authentically (not religiously) and it has been a good experience for me, though I must admit it has taken a while. This morning I think I have some clarity. I talked to a little last night and he was saying that even though he was freaked out by your atheism, he would always be your friend. I am seeking, as I always do, to live out real friendship and yet be true to the fact that, for me, friendship and the Kingdom of God are well established as one and the same. I know you love me--I do not doubt that--but I also know that your position now carries with it a judgment that I am in denial of things observable. Rather than continue to argue with you about this, I am choosing to go all the way and completely fulfill your estimation of me with one big denial: You have chosen to observe that in me, so go ahead and observe it ALL THE WAY with the following response to you: I do not choose to receive that you don’t believe in God! I joyfully choose this “illogical” “confirmation bias” regarding you with all my HEART—a heart full of love for you (and it is logical in the one place you can’t do research: my heart!). From my inner world, that’s true friendship: to honor you, I will hold the vision of you that is the highest estimation in my eyes—according to the observable reality of my inner world—this is my way of living, not just something I preach and you have known me well enough to know that. Please hear it from the heart—it is real for me with no tinge of Christian manipulation—otherwise I would not send it. I would hope that as we close the chapter of what has been a close relationship, you could return the favor and walk away holding me in the highest place of honor in your inner world: Give me that I am authentic and give me the respect and room to keep on sharing what for me is a revelatory inner world with the joy I always have. I can’t pretend not to do this with a heavy heart, but nevertheless I do it with the integrity that truly honors Kingdom friendship. I fear this could make you angry, but just let it rather make you amused, and let it end our discussion with a smile, which you taught me to make….. Proudly in denial of a few things, I am....[P].......

 

Me to P:

 

***note: "Engaging the Culture" is the title of one of her books.

 

P,

 

I came to see you last night specifically to hug and kiss you so that you would see that I am the same friend that I have always been. I have to admit that the last thing I expected this morning was a "Dear John" email from you telling me that we can no longer be real friends.

 

Last week, I simply had some questions based on three years of listening to you. I wasn't accusing you of being in denial. I was first asking if you had actually seen anything manifest other than emotions. I wasn't making judgements about YOUR experience. I was asking if YOUR experience was different than MY experience. When the answer was basically "no", I was then asking how you reconciled that to maintain your belief. When your answer was basically that you choose to believe, I then took a chance and revealed to you why I could not believe any longer. I would submit that it is you that has made the judgements.

 

I am not angry, as I have always believed the best about you and wrapped that with acceptance and love. I am baffled that you think that true friendship and honor is walking away from our friendship because "friendship and the Kingdom of God are...one and the same". Are you really saying that you can't be friends with an unbeliever? That completely contradicts your books, sermons, and countless discussions. I optimistically thought that our friendship would survive my apostasy. I thought this could be a great opportunity for you to "engage the culture" because you would be engaging with someone that loves and respects you.

 

As your true friend, I am trepidatious yet compelled to end with something that will probably be very tough for you to hear. My sole reason for saying this is because I love you, not because I am hurt or looking to hurt you: Over the years, I have consistently observed that it is very difficult for you to be close with anyone that disagrees with you. I think that's because you take disagreement as personal rejection. As your friend, I submit that you are going to have to find a way to get past that if you really want to accomplish your life mission.

 

I will walk away as you requested, but with my head turned back and my hand forever open.

 

Much Love,

 

Jason

[mcdaddy]

After a week long silence, I stopped by the church last night after mid-week services were over. I walked in to tell her that I loved her and then I gave her a hug and kiss on the cheek. We didn't really say anything, and it wasn't awkward at all at least from my perspective. However, this morning, I received the following continuation of our email conversation. She is basically ending our friendship.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

P to Me

 

Hey....I've searched for a way to respond to your new stance authentically (not religiously) and it has been a good experience for me, though I must admit it has taken a while. This morning I think I have some clarity. I talked to a little last night and he was saying that even though he was freaked out by your atheism, he would always be your friend. I am seeking, as I always do, to live out real friendship and yet be true to the fact that, for me, friendship and the Kingdom of God are well established as one and the same. I know you love me--I do not doubt that--but I also know that your position now carries with it a judgment that I am in denial of things observable. Rather than continue to argue with you about this, I am choosing to go all the way and completely fulfill your estimation of me with one big denial: You have chosen to observe that in me, so go ahead and observe it ALL THE WAY with the following response to you: I do not choose to receive that you don’t believe in God! I joyfully choose this “illogical” “confirmation bias” regarding you with all my HEART—a heart full of love for you (and it is logical in the one place you can’t do research: my heart!). From my inner world, that’s true friendship: to honor you, I will hold the vision of you that is the highest estimation in my eyes—according to the observable reality of my inner world—this is my way of living, not just something I preach and you have known me well enough to know that. Please hear it from the heart—it is real for me with no tinge of Christian manipulation—otherwise I would not send it. I would hope that as we close the chapter of what has been a close relationship, you could return the favor and walk away holding me in the highest place of honor in your inner world: Give me that I am authentic and give me the respect and room to keep on sharing what for me is a revelatory inner world with the joy I always have. I can’t pretend not to do this with a heavy heart, but nevertheless I do it with the integrity that truly honors Kingdom friendship. I fear this could make you angry, but just let it rather make you amused, and let it end our discussion with a smile, which you taught me to make….. Proudly in denial of a few things, I am....[P].......

 

Me to P:

 

***note: "Engaging the Culture" is the title of one of her books.

 

P,

 

I came to see you last night specifically to hug and kiss you so that you would see that I am the same friend that I have always been. I have to admit that the last thing I expected this morning was a "Dear John" email from you telling me that we can no longer be real friends.

 

Last week, I simply had some questions based on three years of listening to you. I wasn't accusing you of being in denial. I was first asking if you had actually seen anything manifest other than emotions. I wasn't making judgements about YOUR experience. I was asking if YOUR experience was different than MY experience. When the answer was basically "no", I was then asking how you reconciled that to maintain your belief. When your answer was basically that you choose to believe, I then took a chance and revealed to you why I could not believe any longer. I would submit that it is you that has made the judgements.

 

I am not angry, as I have always believed the best about you and wrapped that with acceptance and love. I am baffled that you think that true friendship and honor is walking away from our friendship because "friendship and the Kingdom of God are...one and the same". Are you really saying that you can't be friends with an unbeliever? That completely contradicts your books, sermons, and countless discussions. I optimistically thought that our friendship would survive my apostasy. I thought this could be a great opportunity for you to "engage the culture" because you would be engaging with someone that loves and respects you.

 

As your true friend, I am trepidatious yet compelled to end with something that will probably be very tough for you to hear. My sole reason for saying this is because I love you, not because I am hurt or looking to hurt you: Over the years, I have consistently observed that it is very difficult for you to be close with anyone that disagrees with you. I think that's because you take disagreement as personal rejection. As your friend, I submit that you are going to have to find a way to get past that if you really want to accomplish your life mission.

 

I will walk away as you requested, but with my head turned back and my hand forever open.

 

Much Love,

 

Jason

 

PWNED!!!!!!!

 

haha. J/k. That's so hypocritical. I'm sure you hit the nail on the head with that last comment about her not "walking the walk". But thats how most christians are, except the liberal ones.

 

"Your disagreement with my beliefs means that you think I'm a 'tard. Because I KNOW it sounds silly, crazy and like utter nonsense to an outsider, which is what you now are. I wont be friends with anyone who thinks I'm a 'tard."

 

Have you ever told her those famous 7 words...."Now, I could be wrong about this...." ? seems like that always soothes the situation. of course you know you're not wrong (at least 99.99999%) but maybe she'll think better of you for admitting that.

[jblueep]

Have you ever told her those famous 7 words...."Now, I could be wrong about this...." ? seems like that always soothes the situation. of course you know you're not wrong (at least 99.99999%) but maybe she'll think better of you for admitting that.

 

Yeah, I thought about something like that, and believe me, I spent three years communicating that way with her (very cautiously). At this point, either we are real friends or we are not. Sad but true.

[Positivist]

After a week long silence, I stopped by the church last night after mid-week services were over. I walked in to tell her that I loved her and then I gave her a hug and kiss on the cheek. We didn't really say anything, and it wasn't awkward at all at least from my perspective. However, this morning, I received the following continuation of our email conversation. She is basically ending our friendship.

J, I am constantly moved by the maturity and authenticity you bring to your relationships. Had I been P in this moment you describe, I'd have become an atheist on the spot because of your loving witness. I find this whole situation incredibly sad but also incredibly telling.

P: [Dear John Letter; I-can't-hear-you-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la; I only have believing friends to bolster my faith]

As a believer I might have done something similar (just not as abrupt) because to have dissenting voices in one's life is to face differences of opinion which may undermine our True^TM Faith^TM. To have people in our lives with different ideas changes us, which to a fundy is a fate worse than death.

 

I am actually somewhat emotionally traumatized by this, J, so I can't imagine your grief at losing a cherished friend. It's just so incredibly sad. And it's incredibly disturbing to me that I can understand where P is coming from. I used to wrap myself in a constant holy huddle, too, feeding off the buzz and getting secret messages from my feelings . Ugh.

J: I will walk away as you requested, but with my head turned back and my hand forever open.

This ^^^ reveals your depth of character and your grace, J.

 

In her eyes you have been corrupted by Satan and can no longer help her sustain her faith, thus you have been proverbially voted off the island. P is in denial, and she strikes me as someone who is deathly afraid of losing her faith (as was I). I think she is heading for a meltdown of gigantic proportions some day soon. And I know you'll be there for her when that happens.

 

Peace.

[blackpudd1n]

The actions of this woman just disgusts me, J and 2H. In essence, she's telling you that if you don't hang on her every word and acknowledge her for the truly "enlightened" individual that she is, then you're not worth her time and effort.

 

It all leaves a bad taste in my mouth and in y stomach, and good on you for standing up for yourself.

[jblueep]

Thank you Pos. Your words are very meaningful to me

 

I think she is heading for a meltdown of gigantic proportions some day soon. And I know you'll be there for her when that happens.

 

I agree with you, and I will be there for when/if she has a meltdown. Here's the ironic thing: P was in a meltdown when we met her three years ago. She and her husband were ready to walk away from the ministry. They were tired and hurt and we helped to "heal" them. They have openly admitted as much. We basically gave them hope because we were non-religious, yet believing "real" people...a lot like them, or so we thought. We just progressed to the next logical stage of growth and they have not yet. Hopefully they will.

[jblueep]

In essence, she's telling you that if you don't hang on her every word and acknowledge her for the truly "enlightened" individual that she is, then you're not worth her time and effort.

 

That is brutal. Unfortunately, that is also very true. I honestly believe that she doesn't consciously see it. "Kill 'em with kindness" still seems like a good idea to me. After all, that leaves room for redemption. And if my conscious is clear, then it doesn't cost me anything more than I'm willing to give.

[2Honest]

I just sent her my own personal coming out letter:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/51207-my-coming-out-letter-to-my-friendformer-pastor/

[London]

It is just amazing to me how quickly she threw you out like the daily trash. And she rambled on and on about crap, trying to justify her decision about dumping your friendship. Maybe she should have just said, "I wish you well in life, no disrespect intended, but our friendship is over." Instead of all the crap she wrote.

 

And J, I thought you actually wrote like a real person. She was being vapid and rambling. I would be relieved that she wants out of the friendship. She apparently did not value it that much if she had a visit from you that was very sweet and she turns and rejects you and almost plunges a knife in you as well.

 

You see, for me, THAT is the type of xian I will not ever be personally involved with. They will cut you at the slightest provocation, but you will never know what that provocation is because it is all in their own head.

 

My theory, knowing what you have shared, is that she is actually struggling to keep her faith. And I think it is very hard for her because she is so deeply involved in that world. She does not have the luxury of just walking away from the myth of her religion. Her ego is also deeply connected to who she is in her religion, so becoming an un-believer equals becoming nothing.

 

So you and 2H are now a huge threat to her "self". You both are smart and rational. That is the biggest threat to her stability. And I think she wants you both far away from her house of smoke & mirrors. I also feel like she is in this child like mindset that says if you are not a part of her fantasy "kingdom", she does not want to play with you. I see her communicating with you in a very child like immature way. She tries so hard to sound so intelligent and grown up, but it just comes off as "I am better and smarter than you". She clearly has a lack of self esteem.

 

Ok, gonna stop trashing you friend here, not trying to be rude, just observe.

 

I am sorry that your friendship with her has ended. It's hard to lose friends that you thought you were close to. It sounded like her husband is still a friend? What does he think of all of this.

[jblueep]

My theory, knowing what you have shared, is that she is actually struggling to keep her faith. And I think it is very hard for her because she is so deeply involved in that world. She does not have the luxury of just walking away from the myth of her religion. Her ego is also deeply connected to who she is in her religion, so becoming an un-believer equals becoming nothing.

 

...She clearly has a lack of self esteem.

 

You hit it right on the head London. I think she won't let herself go there, because if she does, it's all over. And where could she go at that point? Twenty+ years as a pastor's wife, all her kids on the worship team, Xian author, etc...I don't envy that prison.

 

It sounded like her husband is still a friend? What does he think of all of this.

 

He wrote me off awhile back after I asked him to provide any examples of actual healing in his 20+ years as a pastor and he could only come up with one (which I personally knew was bogus). He knew how sick my wife was when we stopped coming to church and he never checked on us once. He didn't have any answers for us, so he stayed away.

[London]

Yeah, I think she see's her own prison, great term by the way. She truly is one of gods lost sheep, that is the saddest part for me, watching someone in that kind of pain.

 

Too bad about the husband, sounds like he is not that invested in any kind of friendships.

 

Well, I can say from experience that you will have future friendships that will clearly enrich your life better than the ones that are ending. It's like a forest fire. It destroys all things in it's path, but when it heals it brings new life in abundance.

[Positivist]

My theory, knowing what you have shared, is that she is actually struggling to keep her faith. And I think it is very hard for her because she is so deeply involved in that world. She does not have the luxury of just walking away from the myth of her religion. Her ego is also deeply connected to who she is in her religion, so becoming an un-believer equals becoming nothing.

 

...She clearly has a lack of self esteem.

 

You hit it right on the head London. I think she won't let herself go there, because if she does, it's all over. And where could she go at that point? Twenty+ years as a pastor's wife, all her kids on the worship team, Xian author, etc...I don't envy that prison.

 

[Her husband] wrote me off awhile back after I asked him to provide any examples of actual healing in his 20+ years as a pastor and he could only come up with one (which I personally knew was bogus). He knew how sick my wife was when we stopped coming to church and he never checked on us once. He didn't have any answers for us, so he stayed away.

This is so incredibly sad and it scares me that I understand her dogmatic perspective (although obviously I don't agree with it). P seems terrified of losing her faith. I can't imagine sinking so much into something so false (as it turns out). The list of regrets grows longer with every day she stays in the faith.

 

Man, I'm having psychological flashbacks to the cognitive dissonance I used to experience. Just trying to squeeze my thinking into the fundagelical mindset hurts my brain and makes me incredibly sad. This poor woman.

 

I am so glad you two are free!

[jblueep]

Well, I can say from experience that you will have future friendships that will clearly enrich your life better than the ones that are ending. It's like a forest fire. It destroys all things in it's path, but when it heals it brings new life in abundance.

 

Amen! And you, and Pos, and a host of others here are evidence of that new life.

[jblueep]

That is the biggest threat to her stability. And I think she wants you both far away from her house of smoke & mirrors.

 

And I wasn't even throwing rocks. I just turned the light on a little

[blackpudd1n]

In essence, she's telling you that if you don't hang on her every word and acknowledge her for the truly "enlightened" individual that she is, then you're not worth her time and effort.

 

That is brutal. Unfortunately, that is also very true. I honestly believe that she doesn't consciously see it. "Kill 'em with kindness" still seems like a good idea to me. After all, that leaves room for redemption. And if my conscious is clear, then it doesn't cost me anything more than I'm willing to give.

 

Sorry for being so blunt- probably could have articulated that better. I do agree completely with the stance you take, though. You may not get through to her, but you just never know who else may be watching from the sidelines, and who may just come around by witnessing all of this. It also means that you know you can hold your head high. Like someone once said to me, "no-one can take away your dignity. That is something only you can lose through your own actions".

[jblueep]

In essence, she's telling you that if you don't hang on her every word and acknowledge her for the truly "enlightened" individual that she is, then you're not worth her time and effort.

 

That is brutal. Unfortunately, that is also very true. I honestly believe that she doesn't consciously see it. "Kill 'em with kindness" still seems like a good idea to me. After all, that leaves room for redemption. And if my conscious is clear, then it doesn't cost me anything more than I'm willing to give.

 

Sorry for being so blunt- probably could have articulated that better. I do agree completely with the stance you take, though. You may not get through to her, but you just never know who else may be watching from the sidelines, and who may just come around by witnessing all of this. It also means that you know you can hold your head high. Like someone once said to me, "no-one can take away your dignity. That is something only you can lose through your own actions".

 

No worries. I was agreeing with you

[2Honest]

My theory, knowing what you have shared, is that she is actually struggling to keep her faith. And I think it is very hard for her because she is so deeply involved in that world. She does not have the luxury of just walking away from the myth of her religion. Her ego is also deeply connected to who she is in her religion, so becoming an un-believer equals becoming nothing.

 

So you and 2H are now a huge threat to her "self". You both are smart and rational. That is the biggest threat to her stability. And I think she wants you both far away from her house of smoke & mirrors. I also feel like she is in this child like mindset that says if you are not a part of her fantasy "kingdom", she does not want to play with you. I see her communicating with you in a very child like immature way. She tries so hard to sound so intelligent and grown up, but it just comes off as "I am better and smarter than you". She clearly has a lack of self esteem.

 

You are very perceptive, London. Right on.

 

The crazy thing is, when we showed up at the church we became instant friends with her. But that was b/c we bought in to her belief system (b/c it seemed she had found some actual proof for it based on science). We helped her through her insecurities and encouraged her to really be who she was. We thought we'd found someone we could walk with - someone we could question with and find answers with. But we realized she didn't want to question. She had all the answers, so it seemed. When we stopped believing her answers, the distance began to set into our friendship.

 

She was a big "fan" of mine - always encouraging me in my "gifts". I was there for her and loved her when others didn't "get" her. But when I pulled away b/c of my deep struggle, she let me go - just like that. She knew the questions I had, and she knew she didn't have the answers. She even joked once that she seemed to always avoid directly discussing my health. But it became clear why she wouldn't address it or discuss it. She couldn't let herself go there.

 

I think this will have far-reaching implications to this woman's life. J and I were people she considered "on the same page" as her - so for us to walk away from the faith has GOT to be making her crazy on some level. Her whole life's message is to reach the culture on "their level". She has said it is her dream to reach new-agers and rock stars. And yet here are two believers who were close friends who no longer believe, and she has no answers for them and is rejecting them b/c of their unbelief. I don't see how that won't come back to bite her.

[London]

I am guessing that she has always had the fear, her whole life, that the people she gets close to will eventually leave because they progress beyond where she is in life. Either in maturity or in progressive learning.

 

I have known people like her. She is stuck in life. Fear prevents her from moving forward. She is in the eternal circle going around and around. You and J are the break in her circle and she feels safe in her eternal circle. She cannot let anyone threaten that. If you break the circle it becomes a line, and a line has more than one direction, god only has one direction... eternal repeat.

 

She is very cognative of her backing away from being "real" and discussing the very hard questions. That says to me that she is using religion to mask something quite horrible in her past. I think her devotion is not only a loss of ego (self) but also a fear of dealing with something that none of us could imagine. I am suspecting that her pain goes quite deep for that unknown (to us) issue. I suspect some trauma pushed her inti xianity to begin with. Xianity is her identity, ego and safe place from the internal demons.

 

It's just sad that religion claims to heal, when in reality it is just a crutch for some to avoid healthy healing.

 

I think you are right, it will come back to bite her, and sadly she did this to herself. She just needs to help herself.

[Positivist]

She even joked once that she seemed to always avoid directly discussing my health. But it became clear why she wouldn't address it or discuss it. She couldn't let herself go there.

Your health issue has become a beacon of reality and it must terrify her. My guess is that she sees it as best if she ignores it

Her whole life's message is to reach the culture on "their level". She has said it is her dream to reach new-agers and rock stars.

Hmmmm. Is this what she actually said? "New-agers"--do people even use this term any more? Is P actually out of touch with the world? With culture? And "rock stars"? This sounds a little delusional and unrealistic. Does she want to reach these groups because she sees them as suffering for lack of Christ, or to lend legitimacy to her own belief system? I just find this statement (new-agers and rock stars) so terribly odd. And you're right. Why is she reaching for the 'stars' (literally--new agers and rockers) when she can't even keep a couple of people with the exact same thinking in the faith? Weird! And sad!