Of Course Another Thought

[Guest end3]

My own personal feeling is that we accept the science of sub-atomic particles, that their behavior is predictable to a level of certainty, And I think we mostly accept the same thing with very large scales. i.e. stars, galaxies, etc. ...maybe, maybe not. But my question is, wouldn't it follow that humans/humanity should be accurately predictable? Because I don't see this as being accepted in the same sense.

 

Are we just too complex? Am I making the wrong assumption?

[florduh]

Like particles all behave in the same manner when under the same circumstances. Same for celestial bodies. There are no two humans who are alike (identical twins excepted, and even then there are small variations due to environmental influences).

[Thurisaz]

That said, Mr Heisenberg said something true about subatomic particles and knowing where they are and where they go with any degree of certainty.

[Ouroboros]

My own personal feeling is that we accept the science of sub-atomic particles, that their behavior is predictable to a level of certainty,

Then what does the "Uncertainty Principle" in physics mean?

 

And I think we mostly accept the same thing with very large scales. i.e. stars, galaxies, etc. ...maybe, maybe not. But my question is, wouldn't it follow that humans/humanity should be accurately predictable? Because I don't see this as being accepted in the same sense.

Quantum mechanics has probable outcomes, but not predictable. So there is a loop hole for nondeterministic outcomes.

 

Are we just too complex? Am I making the wrong assumption?

Not really. The conflict between determinism in physics and indeterminism of free will is the big dilemma in philosophy.

[florduh]

I get your point, end3, but we're getting technical, and you probably don't need a physics lesson.

 

Everything in the nuts and bolts physical world is not totally predictable, but there just seems to be too many nuts among the humans to allow for a reasonable guess. Better?

[Guest end3]

My own personal feeling is that we accept the science of sub-atomic particles, that their behavior is predictable to a level of certainty,

Then what does the "Uncertainty Principle" in physics mean?

 

And I think we mostly accept the same thing with very large scales. i.e. stars, galaxies, etc. ...maybe, maybe not. But my question is, wouldn't it follow that humans/humanity should be accurately predictable? Because I don't see this as being accepted in the same sense.

Quantum mechanics has probable outcomes, but not predictable. So there is a loop hole for nondeterministic outcomes.

 

Are we just too complex? Am I making the wrong assumption?

Not really. The conflict between determinism in physics and indeterminism of free will is the big dilemma in philosophy.

 

Thanks, and this is an honest statement on my behalf. I don't think the population that banks on the "factual truth" sees any possibility for indeterminism. But that's just my assumption. Thanks for the response.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks, and this is an honest statement on my behalf. I don't think the population that banks on the "factual truth" sees any possibility for indeterminism. But that's just my assumption. Thanks for the response.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that scientists don't see any possibility for indeterminism in physics?

 

You can look at this Wiki page for scientists and philosophers on both sides of indeterminism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminism

[Guest end3]

I get your point, end3, but we're getting technical, and you probably don't need a physics lesson.

 

Everything in the nuts and bolts physical world is not totally predictable, but there just seems to be too many nuts among the humans to allow for a reasonable guess. Better?

 

Yeah, even when those you reference pick a direction, I am pretty sure they don't even realize why. There's a few in East Texas like this, but we're ok west of I-35.......kinda the division line you speak of.

 

Let me just simplify. The nuts don't have a clue which direction they go nor why.....and we have no problem in West Texas with nuts because we're sane here ....a joke. I'm sure you got it the first time, but the crowd here has issues with my writing....

[Guest end3]

Thanks, and this is an honest statement on my behalf. I don't think the population that banks on the "factual truth" sees any possibility for indeterminism. But that's just my assumption. Thanks for the response.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that scientists don't see any possibility for indeterminism in physics?

 

I'm saying that it's my feeling that those who are not trained in the science will readily subscribe, understanding that science has "proven" that there is no indeterminism.

 

......that's it's a 100% proposition. Kind of like a congregation accepting what the preacher says without knowing what he is describing.

[Guest end3]

Knowing nothing about this, one would think that since determinism is highly probable, then indeterminism would be the sum of an inexact function...tipping the scale so to speak, towards indeterminism. Easy to say, hard to determine.....which implies some deteministic trueness.....not necessarily from God.

 

And I don't know that if we can even discover more pieces to the function, that this will leave us with the complete understanding.

 

So we lean towards faith.

[Guest Xtech]

Knowing nothing about this, one would think that since determinism is highly probable, then indeterminism would be the sum of an inexact function...tipping the scale so to speak, towards indeterminism. Easy to say, hard to determine.....which implies some deteministic trueness.....not necessarily from God.

 

And I don't know that if we can even discover more pieces to the function, that this will leave us with the complete understanding.

 

So we lean towards faith.

 

Bingo. God of the gaps.

[florduh]

So we lean towards faith.

Sorry, it doesn't work for me to just make up an answer. I prefer to admit I simply don't know (yet).

[JayL]

My own personal feeling is that we accept the science of sub-atomic particles, that their behavior is predictable to a level of certainty, And I think we mostly accept the same thing with very large scales. i.e. stars, galaxies, etc. ...maybe, maybe not. But my question is, wouldn't it follow that humans/humanity should be accurately predictable? Because I don't see this as being accepted in the same sense.

 

Are we just too complex? Am I making the wrong assumption?

 

 

 

Ever since the dawn of modern science, ( the publication of Isaac Newton's Principia Mathematica ), people have been dreaming about applying scientific certainty to human society.

 

The effort gained a real political support during 20th century resulting in two grand scientific experiments called Communism ( Marxian dialectical materialism ) and Nazism ( a society of Master race thru scientific eugenics ). The innocent victims from these two scientific applications to human society number in the hundreds of millions.

 

Even in our good old USA, application of science of sociology resulted in widespread breakdown of families and destruction of once great cities like Detroit. Just go to any inner city and take a look. You will see what the sociology is doing to our nation.

 

 

But people keep hoping on the science to predict human behavior and to better societies..... LOL LOL LOL

[♦ ficino ♦]

In our good old USA, application of science of sociology resulted in breakdown of families and destruction of once great cities like Detroit. Just go to any inner city and take a look. You will see what the sociology is doing to our nation.

 

 

 

 

The significant cause of Detroit's decline was SOCIOLOGY? What about collapse of American manufacturing? Shells of once-busy American factory towns are all over.

[JayL]

Knowing nothing about this, one would think that since determinism is highly probable, then indeterminism would be the sum of an inexact function...tipping the scale so to speak, towards indeterminism. Easy to say, hard to determine.....which implies some deteministic trueness.....not necessarily from God.

 

And I don't know that if we can even discover more pieces to the function, that this will leave us with the complete understanding.

 

So we lean towards faith.

 

 

 

Whether a system is deterministic or not is a moot point anyway. Modern science of chaos theory has shown that even a 100% deterministic system is unpredictable.

 

Everything that counts and that can affect your life - the economy, the financial markets, weather tomorrow, freeway traffic patterns, earthquakes, the second coming of Christ, etc. are ALL unpredictable.

[bdp]

In our good old USA, application of science of sociology resulted in breakdown of families and destruction of once great cities like Detroit. Just go to any inner city and take a look. You will see what the sociology is doing to our nation.

 

 

 

 

The significant cause of Detroit's decline was SOCIOLOGY? What about collapse of American manufacturing? Shells of once-busy American factory towns are all over.

 

Here in Lansing I can show you at least a half dozen locations that were once auto assembly plants. Possibly double that many.

[Guest wester]

You might appreciate Mr. Rick Roderick, one of the coolest West Texas philosophers of all time:

 

http://wimpywombat.net/rick-roderick/

[JayL]

You might appreciate Mr. Rick Roderick, one of the coolest West Texas philosophers of all time:

 

http://wimpywombat.net/rick-roderick/

 

 

Listening to his lectures was an OK way to waste the Sunday afternoon. I would not do it again.

[Ouroboros]

You might appreciate Mr. Rick Roderick, one of the coolest West Texas philosophers of all time:

 

http://wimpywombat.net/rick-roderick/

 

 

Listening to his lectures was an OK way to waste the Sunday afternoon. I would not do it again.

But if he had been half naked, tied up on a bench, and beating bloody with a stick, you would have loved everything he said.

[bdp]

again, 'j' - you're a dick.

[BrotherJosh]

The effort gained a real political support during 20th century resulting in two grand scientific experiments called Communism ( Marxian dialectical materialism ) and Nazism ( a society of Master race thru scientific eugenics ). The innocent victims from these two scientific applications to human society number in the hundreds of millions.

 

Communism and Nazism are both scientific? Are you that ignorant? Aside from the fact that both are political, economical and philosophical ideologies, you realize that Christianity fostered and lead to the deaths of hundreds of millions, as well? The problem with all three is that they are ideologies that people cling to, the common link is that of religious zealotry.

[JayL]

You might appreciate Mr. Rick Roderick, one of the coolest West Texas philosophers of all time:

 

http://wimpywombat.net/rick-roderick/

 

 

Listening to his lectures was an OK way to waste the Sunday afternoon. I would not do it again.

But if he had been half naked, tied up on a bench, and beating bloody with a stick, you would have loved everything he said.

 

 

Do you know of any other Passion movie? I am interested.

[JayL]

The effort gained a real political support during 20th century resulting in two grand scientific experiments called Communism ( Marxian dialectical materialism ) and Nazism ( a society of Master race thru scientific eugenics ). The innocent victims from these two scientific applications to human society number in the hundreds of millions.

 

Communism and Nazism are both scientific? Are you that ignorant? Aside from the fact that both are political, economical and philosophical ideologies, you realize that Christianity fostered and lead to the deaths of hundreds of millions, as well? The problem with all three is that they are ideologies that people cling to, the common link is that of religious zealotry.

 

Academic Science had the preeminent position of honor both in Nazi Germany and in Soviet Union. Much more so than in USA of that time ( hey, we were Jesus folks back then... )

[BrotherJosh]

Academic Science had the preeminent position of honor both in Nazi Germany and in Soviet Union. Much more so than in USA of that time ( hey, we were Jesus folks back then... )

 

That doesn't address anything, and in many ways is fallacious.

[Ouroboros]

Do you know of any other Passion movie? I am interested.

One movie of that kind is enough. We don't need more blood fest or gore.