Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Let's say arguendo that we do get punished in an eternal Hell. My initial questions are: 1. Who is it that get punished? 2. How can "I" be punished? And they will lead to follow-up questions. 1. Who is it that get punished? To start with the first question, who am "I"? According to the Bible we are body and soul, and possibly a spirit too, depending on denomiation. And also according to the bible, it's the lust of the flesh, our body, that leads us to sin. When we die, we leave this body behind, so it's only this supposed soul and/or spirit that can be punished. Follow-up question: Why should the soul/spirit get punished for the acts of the body? 2. How can "I" be punished? Since, according to the Bible, the soul is the "True" Me, and we know when we die the body will still be here. Biology and science have proven that pain, thirst, hunger and emotions are all in the head, our brain, i.e. our body. Going to hell and feeling thirst, hunger, pain would require that we get a body again, which the Bible doesn't say we do. Only the people going to Heaven will get a new "glorified" body. Follow-up question: How can we feel pain, hunger or thirst or even gnash our teeth, without a body or a nervous system? Any Christians up for the task to explain this? (I have my own answers, but they're secret. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Let's say arguendo that we do get punished in an eternal Hell. My initial questions are: 1. Who is it that get punished? 2. How can "I" be punished? And they will lead to follow-up questions. 1. Who is it that get punished? To start with the first question, who am "I"? According to the Bible we are body and soul, and possibly a spirit too, depending on denomiation. And also according to the bible, it's the lust of the flesh, our body, that leads us to sin. When we die, we leave this body behind, so it's only this supposed soul and/or spirit that can be punished. Follow-up question: Why should the soul/spirit get punished for the acts of the body? You see... the thing is that even though it's the lust of the flesh that leads us to sin, it's our soul that's responsible for stopping the body from sinning. Since it doesn't stop it, then our soul is to be punished even though our soul was created without the strength to stop the sinning from happening. I think God just gets off on all the BDSM that's going to happen in hell... 2. How can "I" be punished? Since, according to the Bible, the soul is the "True" Me, and we know when we die the body will still be here. Biology and science have proven that pain, thirst, hunger and emotions are all in the head, our brain, i.e. our body. Going to hell and feeling thirst, hunger, pain would require that we get a body again, which the Bible doesn't say we do. Only the people going to Heaven will get a new "glorified" body. Follow-up question: How can we feel pain, hunger or thirst or even gnash our teeth, without a body or a nervous system? All things are possible for God... (except from creating a rock so heavy that he can't lift it, or making a taco so hot he can't eat it, or making dehydrated water, or... well, you get the idea )All God needs to do is give our souls the illusion of a body and we can get tortured to His content. I still think God gets a stiffy just thinking about it... Any Christians up for the task to explain this? (I have my own answers, but they're secret. ) Shit... I didn't read that before answering. Oh well... my answers will be just as likely as any a christian will come up with, and they don't contradict scripture either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 C-T wins the prize of pretend-fundy-Christian of the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 C-T wins the prize of pretend-fundy-Christian of the day! :stands behind podium: Thank you, thank you... *mwah* So... what's the prize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 The doctrine of hell is evil, it keeps people away from religion rather than close to it. Without a brain, how can we feel pain? I think hell is just bull to keep the masses in line, fear, after all, is a great weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 The doctrine of hell is evil, it keeps people away from religion rather than close to it. Without a brain, how can we feel pain? I think hell is just bull to keep the masses in line, fear, after all, is a great weapon. The chruch that I went to talked about TWO different hells. The hell fire and brimstone hell was for the angels that fell. There was another hell for humans who were not saved. The Outer Darkness Hell, where there shall be weeping and nashing of teeth. Has anyone ever heard of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Outer darkness? The first place I heard that one was in the Silmarillion by Tolkien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Outer darkness? The first place I heard that one was in the Silmarillion by Tolkien. The verses they used to support this were: Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 I haven't heard about that before... It's a strange choice of words in the scripture there: "children of the kingdom." Who's that? The Jews or Christians? That's how I interpret it, since Jesus was talking about the "Kingdom" as the thing that he brougth. Would this verse mean that Christians are going to be cast into the outer darkness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Good questions, Han. I guess Jesus is going to wave his magic wand and make our souls able to feel pain, just so we can be tortured in hell. Because without the hell doctrine and something unpleasant to be saved from, there's really no point in believing in Christianity, especially since Jesus is supposedly our savior from eternal torment, or death, whichever version of the hell doctrine is chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 I haven't heard about that before... It's a strange choice of words in the scripture there: "children of the kingdom." Who's that? The Jews or Christians? That's how I interpret it, since Jesus was talking about the "Kingdom" as the thing that he brougth. Would this verse mean that Christians are going to be cast into the outer darkness? The church said that since Jesus died for everyone's sins we are all part of the Kingdom, even the unsaved. However, if people reject Jesus and do not accept the gift of salvation then they go to the outer darkness, not the really bad hell. They said God doesn't make people suffer for eternity like that, and the sorrow part of the verses was because they were not able to spend eternity with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 Good questions, Han. I guess Jesus is going to wave his magic wand and make our souls able to feel pain, just so we can be tortured in hell. ... That's a freaky thought! God would give us a body back, only for the purpose so we could feel the pain! But then, it would be a new body. Why would a new and innocent body have to suffer pain for a destroyed body's "sins"? God would have to intentionally participate in the punishment, it's not the passive God that some Christians want to make Hell to. And the same problem would be if he supernaturally make the soul be able to feel physical pain without a physical body. He has to actively do something to enhance the punishment. It's not about just "going to Hell", but God make us feel pain intentionally. The church said that since Jesus died for everyone's sins we are all part of the Kingdom, even the unsaved. However, if people reject Jesus and do not accept the gift of salvation then they go to the outer darkness, not the really bad hell. They said God doesn't make people suffer for eternity like that, and the sorrow part of the verses was because they were not able to spend eternity with God. Wow! That's completely new interpretation to me. I thought I've heard most of them, and still there's new versions of Christians everywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 People back then probably did not know pain had to do with the body. They probably thought pain was felt in the spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Why would a new and innocent body have to suffer pain for a destroyed body's "sins"? I'm pretty sure most Christians would say "because Biblegod said so!" Even though I never thought of the hell doctrine this way before, I realized it wasn't fair from the start, and eventually it was one of the key bricks that made the tower of belief fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 People back then probably did not know pain had to do with the body. They probably thought pain was felt in the spirit. You're exactly right. And what bothers me is that Christians of today, still believe and think this way, in spite of the biological and scientific evidence that pain, emotions, thirst and hunger are physical and "felt" in the brain. They still believe in some magical and supernatural place where your body won't be, but still your soul can feel it. They believe in a contradiction without realizing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 I wish their was a way to figure out what a soul and spirit has. It amazes me what Christians believe I mean barely anything in the bible goes with scientific facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 I wish their was a way to figure out what a soul and spirit has. There's no scientific proof of either right now. I doubt there ever will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I say that we should all get together now and formulate a plan just in case hell is real. There's got to be a way to tunnel out of there or make an escape somehow. We should plan ahead and all meet in Tahiti after we make our getaway. (Think Shawshank Redemption).. Speaking of, we should enlist Stephen King's help. He ain't no christian. Can't hurt to put our heads together now and maybe draw up some blueprints of the place or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Also, consider this - if we did have 'new bodies', how long would it take before we got used to the pain? If we're stuck forever in a lake of fire, we'd eventually get to the point where it didn't hurt anymore. Might take a thousand years, but eventually we wouldn't even notice it. Then, we could start planning our escape - and revenge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 There's got to be a way to tunnel out of there or make an escape somehow. We should plan ahead and all meet in Tahiti after we make our getaway. (Think Shawshank Redemption).. Speaking of, we should enlist Stephen King's help. He ain't no christian. Most of the world's scientists are probably in hell, since very few scientists are Real True Christians . Einstein would be there since he was a deist. Stephen Hawking isn't dead yet, but I've read that he isn't Christian either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 Most of the world's scientists are probably in hell, since very few scientists are Real True Christians . Einstein would be there since he was a deist. Stephen Hawking isn't dead yet, but I've read that he isn't Christian either. And even if he was, he wouldn't be a True Christian since he wouldn't believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, and he wouldn't fit with the Southern Baptists. About the tunnel, it's a very interesting topic. Isn't Hell in the deepest pit in the infinte universe? How can you dig a tunner under it? I think we rather have make a flying machine of some kind. Or build a tower, high enough, so we can climb out of the pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 A literal eternal hell suspended in air some place? I always wondered how one could be literally put into eternal hell fire, these huge bright flames everywhere, and then call it outer darkness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 A literal eternal hell suspended in air some place? I always wondered how one could be literally put into eternal hell fire, these huge bright flames everywhere, and then call it outer darkness? I've thought about that before, too, Amanda. Outer darkness with flames. Then, of course, we have the lake of fire. In the center of the earth. (Egyptian concept) Derived from witnessing volcanos erupt. It's obvious that nobody (including the writers of Jesus) could figure out just what the hell hell was supposed to be. They just wanted to make sure it sounded good and scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueheron Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 A literal eternal hell suspended in air some place? I always wondered how one could be literally put into eternal hell fire, these huge bright flames everywhere, and then call it outer darkness? I've thought about that before, too, Amanda. Outer darkness with flames. Then, of course, we have the lake of fire. In the center of the earth. (Egyptian concept) Derived from witnessing volcanos erupt. It's obvious that nobody (including the writers of Jesus) could figure out just what the hell hell was supposed to be. They just wanted to make sure it sounded good and scary. I heard a preacher shouting that it's been proven that hell is 11 miles down inside the earth. And another said our souls will have their senses heightened so that we can feel indescribable sheer agony. The tunnel thing sounds like a good idea. Aren't we going to be given shovels and commanded to dig to make hell "enlarged" for all the sinners coming? With demon taskmasters standing over us with their pitchforks and whips. There may be opportunity to break out. After all, the only thing we'll have is TIME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 With demon taskmasters standing over us with their pitchforks and whips. There may be opportunity to break out. After all, the only thing we'll have is TIME. That's one of the things I never got about hell. Is hell the lake of fire? Because after judgement day, god casts Satan and his pals into the lake, too. What happens to the original hell? And where does it say hell is run by Satan to punish sinners? If that's the case, isn't Satan really just doing god's dirty work? What would happen if Satan decided to reward sinners instead of torturing them? Hell is very confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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