How can Hell be torture, painful and scary?

[Ouroboros]

Ssel, in post #48, this is the part that creates a bit of irritation:

To the Jew, this refers mostly to your children and family linage, this is why they end up being racist.

So far, I have not met a racist Jew, but to the quite opposite I have met Jews that helped a Christian family in need. Without any strings attached.

 

I can't agree to the racist statement that all Jews are racists, anymore than statements that white people hate black people, or all American hate native Americans, or all Arabs hate the western world, etc.

 

Granted that you might not have inteded it to sound like all Jews are racists, but then again, this is where and why you have to make sure you express yourself carefully in these kind of subjects. Your statement above is subject to misunderstanding and loose interpretations.

 

And for the record, I give you right, what I'm doing is censorship. It wasn't my intention from start, but okay, now it is.

[Ssel]

And for the record, I give you right, what I'm doing is censorship. It wasn't my intention from start, but okay, now it is.

And now you have become the very thing that you "hate"

 

Free the slave and he rises to become a dictator.

 

So be it.

[Ouroboros]

Thinking is destroyed by emotionalism. I have been told time and time again that the people on this site are, or at least wish to be, thinkers. But in the environment of emotionalism, thinking can not progress.

Sorry, but I don't agree to that thinking is destroyed by emotionalism. Emotions and Creativity goes strongly hand-in-hand. Science requires emotions and passion just as much as any other thing in life.

 

We wouldn't invent and create if we all were Vulcans.

 

 

And for the record, I give you right, what I'm doing is censorship. It wasn't my intention from start, but okay, now it is.

And now you have become the very thing that you "hate"

 

Free the slave and he rises to become a dictator.

 

So be it.

In what sense? What did I become? Are you implying that I became a racist because I don't approve of racism?

[crazy-tiger]

Thinking is destroyed by emotionalism. I have been told time and time again that the people on this site are, or at least wish to be, thinkers. But in the environment of emotionalism, thinking can not progress.

 

If you want the real truth to be revealed, the then emotionalism must be fought, not the proposed facts. Reality will always kick anyone ass when it is ignored very long.

 

Support science and reality, correct the emotionalist. Not the ones who merely speak of what others do not want to hear.

You seem to be working from an absolute view here... that of someone is either a thinker or an emotionalist. Since that is patently false, one has to wonder why you keep trotting it out...

 

Meanwhile, if you want the real truth revealed, you need to fight against the deliberate attempt to muddy the issue by equating the Jewish religion with the Jewish race.

One does not equal the other, and judging the Jewish race to be racist because the Jewish religion is racist, is hiding the truth and is indeed racism.

 

"Support science and reality" you said... well, the reality is, you made a mistake and are doing anything you can to avoid admitting it.

And for the record, I give you right, what I'm doing is censorship. It wasn't my intention from start, but okay, now it is.

And now you have become the very thing that you "hate"

 

Free the slave and he rises to become a dictator.

 

So be it.

On the contrary... Han, you are not using censorship in the classic sense. You are making sure than subjects known to cause massive disruption while failing to result in anything good are not brought up yet again.

This is working for the public good and to stop disruption. Can anyone complain about that? Only those who have a vested interest in causing disruption.

 

Ssel... why are you insisting that you should be able to post subjects that WILL cause disruption? Are you wanting to cause problems for everyone?

Accept that some subjects are out of bounds for a reason... they are more trouble than they are worth.

[Ouroboros]

And for the record, I give you right, what I'm doing is censorship. It wasn't my intention from start, but okay, now it is.

And now you have become the very thing that you "hate"

 

Free the slave and he rises to become a dictator.

 

So be it.

On the contrary... Han, you are not using censorship in the classic sense. You are making sure than subjects known to cause massive disruption while failing to result in anything good are not brought up yet again.

This is working for the public good and to stop disruption. Can anyone complain about that? Only those who have a vested interest in causing disruption.

And also, a dictator would force the subjects to obedience, i.e. in this situation I would have blocked Ssel or removed his posts, and actively done the action of censorship. But instead I only explained the guidelines that we all should follow. If Ssel want to see this issue in a categorical black-and-white contrast, that is his option.

 

 

 

And also, Ssel, you have shown a strong passion and emotional incentive for your arguments in the last posts, how does that converge with your other line of reasoning about avoiding emotional involvement in critical thinking?

[crazy-tiger]

And also, a dictator would force the subjects to obedience, i.e. in this situation I would have blocked Ssel or removed his posts, and actively done the action of censorship. But instead I only explained the guidelines that we all should follow. If Ssel want to see this issue in a categorical black-and-white contrast, that is his option.

Interesting that he would do that, since that's one of the major signs of someone who follows dogma instead of questioning things...

And also, Ssel, you have shown a strong passion and emotional incentive for your arguments in the last posts, how does that converge with your other line of reasoning about avoiding emotional involvement in critical thinking?

It obviously means that he's not using science and reality at all, since he's an emotionalist... (by his own view, that is)

[Sadie]

I am still a Christian because I walked without God and Jesus Christ for a period of time in my life and my life with Him doesn't compare with when I didn't have Him. There was an emptiness in me when I turned against God. I had no peace. I do now.

[Vixentrox]

I am still a Christian because I walked without God and Jesus Christ for a period of time in my life and my life with Him doesn't compare with when I didn't have Him. There was an emptiness in me when I turned against God. I had no peace. I do now.

Funny, I am the opposite. My life much better without an imaginary friend.

[NotBlinded]

The bible also speaks of god destroying both body and soul so I'm not sure what would be getting eternally tortured if those two things are destroyed. Our brain is what allows pain so that is another reason a "literal" hell doctrine makes zero sense.

Hi Serenity,

 

I think that is exactly why I sought another understanding. When something makes zero sense, there has to be another explanation. I just can no longer hold on to the thought that it was all written to be taken literally. I think they would have known that it made no sense in this respect. But, later when it was used for power, it did become such and most people accepted it as true and innerant, but only because they were not informed of the meaning that is underneath and threatened with death if they were to question it.

 

Maybe men created heaven and hell because of how the world can seem unjust sometimes. You know? I'm sure back in ancient times, as in todays day and age evil people seemed to die without getting their "just" dessert so to speak. Maybe the ability for men to believe that someone could get off that easy (dieing and not getting caught) for an atrocity or violent act could never be swallowed and so now instead of a finite punishment in an effort to ward off bad behavior, an infinite one was created by man. Maybe the thought of others "getting away" with something was and still is too hard of a concept to grasp for people. Many a times, Christians will excuse the horrible eternal torture doctrine by saying..."justice needs to be done", as if incapable of accepting that indeed bad people get away with horrible things sometimes like rape and murder and being abusive, etc. is just a part of life and yes, some will literally "get away" with murder.

Yes, that would account for part of it I believe, hense the literal interpretation. But, what feeds that desire to see justice done? The notion that I (or someone) have been wronged and that person did not pay for it. This is desires of the ego; the desire for one to be right and the other to be wrong. But how are we to know that their lives were not affected by their 'wrong' decision even without direct action from others? I don't think we can know.

 

Even with the understanding that you have mentioned, I still feel there has to be more to it because this understanding still does nothing to bring people together without the wants and desires of the ego. When that can be surpassed, it is a prophetic doctrine that explains what happens to people throughout their lives when the mind (ego) causes division.

 

I'm sort of speaking to myself right here by the way, as the whole hell thing was MAJOR in my life. I've tried to see things like Amanda and NBBTL when regarding heaven and hell being with in and away from god, but my thoughts that I've written above, seem so much more clear to me. And besides, if it was meant as allegorical with weeping and gnashing of teeth without god...why am I and other unbelievers so much happier after leaving "god"?? My life is so much better now, I really desire nothing else.

I don't want compare my life with yours because we have experienced different things, so I will use my experiences as an example. I thought that I was happy with my understandings when I was last here back in March. I was wrong. I was continually on the defensive with believers and even with sayings on church signs (which can still be offensive, but now understandably so). I was in conflict with most around me. This would not always be a literal projection of such conflict, but an on-going inner conflict.

 

The bible tells so much more than what is portrayed by our understanding of the words. It is a unifying feeling and I can say that peace is returning to my life. Slowly...yes. I now see it as mankind's way of expressing what cannot be expressed and when dealing with the formless by the use of forms (words), things will get misunderstood. I believe that is why there were schools devoted to helping those understand spiritual writings. It's just the play of mankind that has taken this book and used it for their own means by the literal interpretation. One interpretation causes hatred and division and the other brings about unity. I know that I grew tired of being in inner tourmoil and I had to make some changes. This is the most important thing that I have ever ran across in my life because I no longer create the tourmoil that haunted me every day. Now, I'm the one talking to myself!

[Amanda]

So anyway, now that Ssel's managed to derail the thread YET AGAIN with his ridiculous obsessions about Jews, let me restate the OP:

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Also, what exactly is the part of us that's supposed to be suffering this eternal torment? Obviously not our bodies, because we'll be dead spirits or souls or whatever. So what exactly will be burning/suffering/weeping?

 

Hi All Gods Fail! Thanks for bringing this back on what I think is the topic too! I now personally think that this concept of a literal hell does the most damage of Christian thinking! It seems to 'make' Christians demand their beliefs on others... because they think they are doing it for our own good and are justified! IMO, changing this belief alone would make one of the greatest contributions to everyone! This, and stopping the elitist position of condemnation of others!

 

The topic "How can Hell be torture, painful and scary?, And who is this "Me" that's going to get punished?" IMHO, I think the war between heaven and hell is within us! The side that wins, is the side we feed the most! Natural repercussions of our own behaviors will present themselves within, as hell or heaven. The 'me' is me. Fire is just a metaphor for 'sterilizing or cleansing' our spirit of disrespectful thinking by its own consequences. The hell references are all metaphors, IMO. If one does not have solid foundations on which to stand, it will be the bottomless pit. Land separated from water by volcanic activity, so we are standing on the 'lake of fire' aka lava, the earth. It is within ourself we really live, and that is where heaven and hell can manifest... it is our own choice. FWIW, IMO, choices driven by being accountable and responsible for our own actions will eventually bring us ALL to the same ultimate place of respect for all, peace and joy.

[All Gods Fail]

So anyway, now that Ssel's managed to derail the thread YET AGAIN with his ridiculous obsessions about Jews, let me restate the OP:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, what exactly is the part of us that's supposed to be suffering this eternal torment? Obviously not our bodies, because we'll be dead spirits or souls or whatever. So what exactly will be burning/suffering/weeping?

 

Hi All Gods Fail! Thanks for bringing this back on what I think is the topic too! I now personally think that this concept of a literal hell does the most damage of Christian thinking! It seems to 'make' Christians demand their beliefs on others... because they think they are doing it for our own good and are justified! IMO, changing this belief alone would make one of the greatest contributions to everyone! This, and stopping the elitist position of condemnation of others!

 

I agree, Amanda - it also causes the most anxiety and fear, both of which can drive people to do terribly illogical things. What if something I do or say causes a xtian's fear of hell to flare up - what if I state my opinion that god doesn't exist? That might so terrify a good xtian he might strike out at me out of fear.

 

The topic "How can Hell be torture, painful and scary?, And who is this "Me" that's going to get punished?" IMHO, I think the war between heaven and hell is within us! The side that wins, is the side we feed the most! Natural repercussions of our own behaviors will present themselves within, as hell or heaven. The 'me' is me. Fire is just a metaphor for 'sterilizing or cleansing' our spirit of disrespectful thinking by its own consequences. The hell references are all metaphors, IMO. -[snip]

 

I know you are far from a literalist/fundy when it comes to scripture, but in this case I don't think you can avoid it. The bible (the NT, actually), to me is plainly stating hell is a physical (or metaphysical) destination our spirits will end up at if we don't accept christ - not a metaphor for the consequences of sin. If not, what is Jesus saving us from?

 

Our souls are supposed to suffer in hell/outer darkness/lake of fire (or some combo of the 3). The bible is actually quite vague about the next life, heaven or hell. What are we in the next world, exactly? Ghosts? Do we have some new kind of body? Do we retain our personality, our consciousness? Why do we need heavenly mansions, how do we rule over cities of people in the next life? WTF? None of it really makes any sense.

[Amanda]

I know you are far from a literalist/fundy when it comes to scripture, but in this case I don't think you can avoid it. The bible (the NT, actually), to me is plainly stating hell is a physical (or metaphysical) destination our spirits will end up at if we don't accept christ - not a metaphor for the consequences of sin. If not, what is Jesus saving us from?

 

'All Gods Fail', IMO, the name of Jesus was to bring to mind his teachings... which basically emphasized an internal locus of control, equality, strength under a gentle nature, and helping others. Disregarding any of these will bring this world into a 'hell' of a place! However, each person adhering to these principles can find heaven within themselves, regardless of the world. The teaching about savation by 'grace', that EVERYONE is doing their best, eradicates the concept of condemnation, because who can be condemned by not doing better than their best? Our best is all we can possibly be expected to do! Still, people have to be accountable and responsible for their behavior... we just don't condemn them for it. Hopefully we judge in a merciful way that helps ourself and others be better people in these regards, without condemnation.

 

Our souls are supposed to suffer in hell/outer darkness/lake of fire (or some combo of the 3). The bible is actually quite vague about the next life, heaven or hell. What are we in the next world, exactly? Ghosts? Do we have some new kind of body? Do we retain our personality, our consciousness? Why do we need heavenly mansions, how do we rule over cities of people in the next life? WTF? None of it really makes any sense.

 

IMO, all that 'hell' stuff are just metaphors... and not a physical place after death! Having all that brilliant flaming fire, how can it be dark anyway? I personally believe in a concept similar to reincarnation. It is not a traditional 'Christian' belief, although I think Christ at least alluded to this. My studies of his teachings find him to be more Buddhist than anything else today... although I do see many other spiritual aspects in his teachings.... least being the fundamentalist 'Christian' mentality.

[SkepticOfBible]

IMO, all that 'hell' stuff are just metaphors...

 

Well if all the Hell Stuff is metaphor, then I have no doubt that you accept the concept of everlasting life as a metaphor too, I suppose?