Billy Graham Loves Jesus And Nazis But Hates Gays.

[raoul]

**note - excepts of Graham interview were taken from public video on YouTube - no copyrighted material**

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsMVj0INgOw&list=UUUKpV1m_1VZc4JjbxhGwl0A&index=8&feature=plcp

[3DollarBill]

Well, he's definitely a homophobe, don't know why anyone would expect otherwise. Kinda hard to be disappointed when you get exactly what you expected, right?

 

As for the nazi connection...flimsy at best and you know it. I call total bullshit. Do you know the details of all your friends' business dealings? More importantly, does it make you a bad person if one of your friends is involved in something unsavory? As for the jab at the Bush family...Deuteronomy 5:9 much?

[raoul]

Well, he's definitely a homophobe, don't know why anyone would expect otherwise. Kinda hard to be disappointed when you get exactly what you expected, right?

 

As for the nazi connection...flimsy at best and you know it. I call total bullshit. Do you know the details of all your friends' business dealings? More importantly, does it make you a bad person if one of your friends is involved in something unsavory? As for the jab at the Bush family...Deuteronomy 5:9 much?

You call what are historical facts 'total bullshit'? All you gotta do is the same thing I did - I went through various sites to corroborate. Wikipedia was one of the best ones for this but I'd always known about it because other sources such as Thom Hartmann and Mike Malloy had researched it in greater detail than I. And as a matter of fact I DO know most of what my friends do because:

1. I can count on one hand how many actual friends I have when defining it in terms of what 'friend' really means at least to me and

2. ALL of my friends are at the lower level of middle class rung. One of them can be actually classified as poor. So your point is?

 

And your reference to Deut. 5:9 is incoherent - no bearing on what I spoke about. Also, I'm not an old testament levite. When I am in the bible, the rare times I am, it's the new testament.

 

So when you say this is flimsy and I know it, the only thing I know is that your rapid response, without checking it out for yourself, was definitely flimsy.

[3DollarBill]

You call what are historical facts 'total bullshit'? All you gotta do is the same thing I did - I went through various sites to corroborate. Wikipedia was one of the best ones for this but I'd always known about it because other sources such as Thom Hartmann and Mike Malloy had researched it in greater detail than I.

Conspiracy theories rarely have much to do with historical facts. And despite your accusation to the contrary, I did look into it. It took about 5 minutes to determine that the claims that Prescott Bush was a nazi sympathizer are total political propaganda. No different from the dumbasses claiming Obama is from Kenya. And then you go attacking Graham for playing golf with him? Sorry, but you're grasping at straws there. Show me some actual evidence, I'm waiting to be proven wrong.

 

Sorry the Deut 5:9 thing went over your head, let me spell it out for you: Even if Granddaddy Bush was a nazi sympathizer, which he wasn't, that in no way reflects on his son and grandson.

[raoul]

You call what are historical facts 'total bullshit'? All you gotta do is the same thing I did - I went through various sites to corroborate. Wikipedia was one of the best ones for this but I'd always known about it because other sources such as Thom Hartmann and Mike Malloy had researched it in greater detail than I.

Nothing to do with historical facts. And despite your accusation to the contrary, I did look into it. It took about 5 minutes to determine that the claims that Prescott Bush was a nazi sympathizer are total political propaganda. No different from the dumbasses claiming Obama is from Kenya. And then you go attacking Graham for playing golf with him? Sorry, but you're grasping at straws there. Show me some actual evidence, I'm waiting to be proven wrong.

 

Sorry the Deut 5:9 thing went over your head, let me spell it out for you: Even if Granddaddy Bush was a nazi sympathizer, which he wasn't, that in no way reflects on his son and grandson.

So in other words I'm in good company with Hartmann & Malloy. Thank you!! LOL

Doing business with an enemy is and has been equated with sympathizing or being in harmony with them. Sorry if you can't get your head around that. And regarding sins of the fathers, etc. - had NO bearing on what I'd said about the family fortunes coming, at least in part, from dealings with the Nazis.

 

Obviously you're an admirer of Graham and/or the war criminal Bush family. And when I say war criminal in reference to the moron who was the predecessor to Obama I am also speaking from references regarding his crimes against humanity with the illegal invasion of Iraq. Crimes against humanity because the excuses he offered were almost identical with those offered by Prescott's Nazi friends for their invasion of Poland and other countries. Invasions which were later used to convict and hang some of them according to the Nurenburg War Crimes transcripts. Sorry if this is too much factual info for you but unless you can offer a counter argument based on a source and not your imagination, I think we've exhausted words. A word of warning though - when Graham finally does kick the bucket, I'm gonna have a few choice words to say about his legacy of evangelism... LOL

[3DollarBill]

So in other words I'm in good company with Hartmann & Malloy. Thank you!! LOL

Doing business with an enemy is and has been equated with sympathizing or being in harmony with them. Sorry if you can't get your head around that. And regarding sins of the fathers, etc. - had NO bearing on what I'd said about the family fortunes coming, at least in part, from dealings with the Nazis.

The ramblings of two talk show hosts whose job is to be deliberately inflammatory does not constitute proof positive of anything. Here's how it actually was: Bush was on the board of directors of UBC. He was on the boards of a lot of things- he was a businessman. He owned .025% of the bank. The government seized the bank's assets during WWII, on suspicion of violating the Trading with the Enemy Act, then returned them after the war, the investigation was inconclusive. UBC continued for a while then dissolved sometime in the 50s:

http://www.mbpolitic...stingDetail.htm

http://hnn.us/resour...cuments0014.jpg

 

According to more objective journalists, and the Anti-Defamation League, there is no evidence that Bush was a nazi sympathizer:

http://www.adl.org/I...rs/prescott.htm

 

 

Obviously you're an admirer of Graham and/or the war criminal Bush family.

I don't know where you get that idea. I think Graham is a deluded bigot, and I think there's a lot about both Bush presidencies that deserves criticism. I also think that such criticism stands on its own and does not need to be supplemented by made-up accusations of nazi ties.

 

A word of warning though - when Graham finally does kick the bucket, I'm gonna have a few choice words to say about his legacy of evangelism... LOL

He is hopelessly deluded himself, and has led many down that path. Worse still, he deserves some of the blame for the United States' failure to separate religion and politics. However, he does deserve credit for advancing the civil rights movement during the 50s. He took a bold stance at the time, insisted on integrated seating at his services, and bailed Dr King out of jail.

 

One of the hardest things to give up when you leave christianity is the tendency to look at everything in black-and-white terms. The cult trains you to do that: god is good and satan is evil, all sins are equally evil, you either get heaven or hell, bible is right everything else is wrong, etc etc etc. I refuse to judge Prescott Bush, Billy Graham, or anybody else on those terms. I wouldn't want to be judged on those terms. Life is too complicated for that.

[3DollarBill]

And another damn thing...

I think we've exhausted words.

I think so too. Until you provide some tangible evidence to back up your claims, I'm not going to continue taking the bait. You are the one who is positing some nazi connection, YOU can back that up.

[raoul]

You ask for sources after denigrating one of the premier experts, Hartmann, when it comes to historical facts? Okay, I'll play along. I expect you to check out EACH and EVERY one. Once you do I will wait for your apology. If none comes then I will assume 'intellectual laziness' and/or 'intellectual dishonesty' are concepts you don't have a problem with. Just a few of MANY sources:

 

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

 

www.commondreams.org/views03/1006-08.htm

 

theprogressivetruth.blogspot.com/2008/05/bush-family

 

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html (in case you lean towards the right wing as a courtesy to you)

 

 

www.tribalmessenger.org/t-bush/bush-family-history-pt2.htm

 

 

After you're finished checking those out I have some YouTube videos you can also watch...

[3DollarBill]

You ask for sources after denigrating one of the premier experts, Hartmann, when it comes to historical facts? Okay, I'll play along. I expect you to check out EACH and EVERY one. Once you do I will wait for your apology.

Is there more than one Thom Hartmann? That's a legitimate question. Don't assume you have an apology coming, to the contrary:

 

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

From the article: "...there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause..."

and also this little tidbit: "There was nothing illegal in doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s and many of America's best-known business names invested heavily in the German economic recovery."

 

www.commondreams.org/views03/1006-08.htm

Has all the elements of sensationalist journalism with no citations. Hell, it suggests California is turning into a nazi state in the second fucking sentence. Classic panic-peddling, conspiracy-theorist garbage, and I don't buy it for one second.

 

 

theprogressivetruth.blogspot.com/2008/05/bush-family

Page doesn't exist. Betcha didn't think I would make it this far, did ya?

 

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html (in case you lean towards the right wing as a courtesy to you)

I think we can leave this one out as its source isn't exactly known for objectivity. But nice try calling me a right-winger. I guess if I don't eat up your leftist bullshit I must be a teabagger, right?

 

www.tribalmessenger.org/t-bush/bush-family-history-pt2.htm

Hardly a nonpartisan site. (See, I perused the whole thing, that matters ya know?) All things conservatives painted with negativity, all things liberal portrayed positively. Pages upon pages dedicated to criticizing Bush, not a word about his predecessor or his successor.

 

NEVERTHELESS, From the article: "Union Banking was but one of many Nazi front corporations overseas. In fact, the U.S. economy was honeycombed with concealed Nazi assets. Using a maze of shell corporations (often based in Switzerland) to cloak their ownership, Nazi-front corporations operated in many countries outside the Third Reich."

 

And you get from this that a random board member and minority shareholder in one of many banks holding nazi funds is somehow a sympathizer? Get real.

 

Nobody is denying Bush worked for companies with, shall we say, "unsavory clinetele." But no objective source accuses him of any actual wrongdoing, and no, his actions absolutely do not and never will constitute sympathizing with the enemy.

 

Finally...the topic of this thread is Billy Graham. Your thread title:

Billy Graham Loves Jesus And Nazis But Hates Gays.

 

 

And your evidence: Billy Graham played golf with somebody who had loose business ties with certain members of the German Nazi party. Absolutely laughable.

[3DollarBill]

And if I come off a little grumpy...it's because you're making me come on a decidedly anti-religion message board and defend a goddamn televangelist. What a day.

[Legion]

3D, I'm with ya man.

 

You're doing great. It can be discouraging to do what you're doing. Please don't be discouraged.

[raoul]

You ask for sources after denigrating one of the premier experts, Hartmann, when it comes to historical facts? Okay, I'll play along. I expect you to check out EACH and EVERY one. Once you do I will wait for your apology.

Is there more than one Thom Hartmann? That's a legitimate question. Don't assume you have an apology coming, to the contrary:

 

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

From the article: "...there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause..."

and also this little tidbit: "There was nothing illegal in doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s and many of America's best-known business names invested heavily in the German economic recovery."

 

www.commondreams.org/views03/1006-08.htm

Has all the elements of sensationalist journalism with no citations. Hell, it suggests California is turning into a nazi state in the second fucking sentence. Classic panic-peddling, conspiracy-theorist garbage, and I don't buy it for one second.

 

 

theprogressivetruth.blogspot.com/2008/05/bush-family

Page doesn't exist. Betcha didn't think I would make it this far, did ya?

 

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html (in case you lean towards the right wing as a courtesy to you)

I think we can leave this one out as its source isn't exactly known for objectivity. But nice try calling me a right-winger. I guess if I don't eat up your leftist bullshit I must be a teabagger, right?

 

www.tribalmessenger.org/t-bush/bush-family-history-pt2.htm

Hardly a nonpartisan site. (See, I perused the whole thing, that matters ya know?) All things conservatives painted with negativity, all things liberal portrayed positively. Pages upon pages dedicated to criticizing Bush, not a word about his predecessor or his successor.

 

NEVERTHELESS, From the article: "Union Banking was but one of many Nazi front corporations overseas. In fact, the U.S. economy was honeycombed with concealed Nazi assets. Using a maze of shell corporations (often based in Switzerland) to cloak their ownership, Nazi-front corporations operated in many countries outside the Third Reich."

 

And you get from this that a random board member and minority shareholder in one of many banks holding nazi funds is somehow a sympathizer? Get real.

 

Nobody is denying Bush worked for companies with, shall we say, "unsavory clinetele." But no objective source accuses him of any actual wrongdoing, and no, his actions absolutely do not and never will constitute sympathizing with the enemy.

 

Finally...the topic of this thread is Billy Graham. Your thread title:

Billy Graham Loves Jesus And Nazis But Hates Gays.

 

 

And your evidence: Billy Graham played golf with somebody who had loose business ties with certain members of the German Nazi party. Absolutely laughable.

Oh believe me - I KNEW you'd pour through each one, take certain things out of context, and then come back with what I expected you to come back with. The 'ego' controls many people I've encountered - people who MUST get the last word in because of the insecurity of being proven wrong or whatever. And you did, in fact, fall right into the trap. To wit: Nothing and I repeat NOTHING you just wrote refutes anything I said about Bush doing business with the enemy. In fact, you corroborate it over and over by subtle changes. IE: you began this sordid journey totally denying it and accusing me of tossing out bs. But now you basically saying 'so what if he did do business with them? It wasn't any big thing' (paraphrase btw and not direct quote).

 

Thanks for the concession. LOL

[Vigile]

FWIW, looks like you 3dollar got the best of you Raoul. But since you're a free'er thinker than I, you can disregard my opinion on the matter.

[raoul]

3D, I'm with ya man.

 

You're doing great. It can be discouraging to do what you're doing. Please don't be discouraged.

I agree. In fact, he did a GREAT job of actually agreeing with my basic premise as noted by me in my last message to him. LOL

 

Seriously though - I believe our education system is found wanting at least in 'reading comprehension' skills...

[raoul]

FWIW, looks like you 3dollar got the best of you Raoul. But since you're a free'er thinker than I, you can disregard my opinion on the matter.

You might wanna retract that after reading what I just penned to him. LOL

[raoul]

And if I come off a little grumpy...it's because you're making me come on a decidedly anti-religion message board and defend a goddamn televangelist. What a day.

Well pilgrim, that's what happens when you let the ego control you and attempt to play up to the audience.. I've got years of experience dealing with what I call 'hardcore' atheists whose behavior was very similar. Instead of simply beginning by saying you disagree and giving sources for same you pretty much called me a liar. Sorry but I take issue with being called that or even when someone infers it. I've spent my life seeking truth.

[Legion]

This is just my opinion. You're pretty much a scum bag raoul.

[Vigile]

Nah, I can't recant. You haven't met your burden of proof and now you are shifting it to him requiring him to refute the connections. It doesn't work that way.

 

You do have a brilliant way with words. To that I bow.

[Legion]

One of the hardest things to give up when you leave christianity is the tendency to look at everything in black-and-white terms. The cult trains you to do that: god is good and satan is evil, all sins are equally evil, you either get heaven or hell, bible is right everything else is wrong, etc etc etc. I refuse to judge Prescott Bush, Billy Graham, or anybody else on those terms. I wouldn't want to be judged on those terms. Life is too complicated for that.

 

This. This here. Would you care to address this directly Raoul?

[raoul]

One of the hardest things to give up when you leave christianity is the tendency to look at everything in black-and-white terms. The cult trains you to do that: god is good and satan is evil, all sins are equally evil, you either get heaven or hell, bible is right everything else is wrong, etc etc etc. I refuse to judge Prescott Bush, Billy Graham, or anybody else on those terms. I wouldn't want to be judged on those terms. Life is too complicated for that.

 

This. This here. Would you care to address this directly Raoul?

No I don't because it's not germaine to the video I posted. I mean I do agree fully about not looking at things so narrowly but what I said in the video was the absolute truth as far as I could tell based on the Wikipedia and historian, Hartmann's, sources. Everything else I tossed out at him regarding those extraneous sources were merely to influence his behavior. In other words, a trap which he fell into. He began this by total denial of what I said in the video but ended by saying 'so what if he did do it? No big thing' - that's the simplified explanation he gave which I'm giving you out of courtesy okay? But when someone shifts their counter arguments in order to satiate their own feelings, sorry but I gotta pounce. Understood? I hope so.

[Legion]

This. This here. Would you care to address this directly Raoul?

No I don't...

 

Alrighty. Then allow me another question.

 

Do you think gays are good?

[raoul]

Nah, I can't recant. You haven't met your burden of proof and now you are shifting it to him requiring him to refute the connections. It doesn't work that way.

 

You do have a brilliant way with words. To that I bow.

au contraire - it DOES work that way. I gave my source in the video (Wikipedia) and then told him about the other sources (Hartmann and Malloy) which he ridiculed. There was NO shift but if anyone shifted it was he when he went from total denial of the premise to subtle acceptance but pooh poohing it. God this is so freaking frustrating trying to teach people how to read arguments and subtle changes within them. And no bowing necessary - I've been at this for YEARS with people who have advanced degrees in Philosophy, Biology,and other disciplines. Not bragging here, just giving some background okay?

[raoul]

This. This here. Would you care to address this directly Raoul?

No I don't...

 

Alrighty. Then allow me another question.

 

Do you think gays are good?

I'm tempted to say 'what the fuck brought that on?' Of course they are, at least the ones I hang out with. And I find them incredibly interesting and funny at times. They bring much to the human family and I find it absolutely despicable how they've become the whipping boys and girls of the religious right.......

[Legion]

I've been at this for YEARS with people who have advanced degrees in Philosophy, Biology,and other disciplines. Not bragging here, just giving some background okay?

 

So have I. And it's nothing to brag about. I've met some of the most intelligent, highly educated idiots in the world.

[raoul]

This is just my opinion. You're pretty much a scum bag raoul.

And in the words of the immortal Pee Wee Herman: I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you toss at me sticks to you... LOL

 

Seriously though, I probably am at times at least, in the past, I have been...