Panendeism

[Legion]

 

Oh my dear Sjesson,

I have for you

a small suggestion.

We are and become

through relation.

 

It's all a great web.

And you'll see it

if attachment you shed.

 

In through perception

grappled through reason

out through prediction

and great hope for a

causal indication.

 

Sjesson moves

Sjesson proves

 

She is web

within web

[sjessen]

The more I think about this, I think it's important to underscore this and acknowledge this in those who view themselves as agnostic and atheist. It's a positive thing, and really truly what I can now see as a true act of faith. It is important and necessary for many to do, as it was for me very much so, in order to free themselves from the grips of that early stage of development in their personal lives; that group-think, conformist, mythic-literal mode of understanding reality.

 

The good news is yes, there is genuine spirituality to be had beyond that earlier mode of understanding reality. The challenge is the continued growth on that less traveled road to find it ourselves. We are those explorers who set off from the home-world into the uncharted seas.

 

This is important to recognize as we find ourselves getting embroiled in the debate. It's a step forward, not the end.

 

I can relate to this as being my path as well, Antlerman. After I left Christianity, I spent a period of time as an agnostic, just not-knowing what I believed anymore. I knew I no longer accepted the concept of biblegod, but I didn't know what form god might take. In my process of de-conversion I read some atheist writings and I began to wonder if perhaps they were right and there is no god. But that just didn't sit right with me for a number of reasons. So now I am beginning to explore the possibilities. I suppose this foray into the different classifications of religions is my attempt to find out other people's concept of god and see what resonates with me. Your comments are so helpful Antlerman and I thank you for sharing them with me.

 

I hope this explains my search better McDaddy. I think I have always (as an adult) believed in God, I just didn't know what form he/she/it/they might take. So I am exploring the options and finding out that some concepts seem to make sense to me and others do not. No doubt my thoughts are biased by what I learned as a Christian, but I am trying to be open-minded and listen to what others think and consider those as possible forms god might take. Mainly I am drawing from what I see in nature and us and using my intellect to determine what seems reasonable.

[sjessen]

Well, im sorry you took it so personally. No, I view it as fact that "many ex-C's try other religions, before ultimately settling in on agnosticism/atheism". "many" can be a majority, or even a minority, depending on how you want to look at it. I'm only pointing out the obvious. Are you saying that this rarely happens? I guess I don't have raw data to back it up, so in that regards it is an opinion I guess. But I think it's a hunch that's got a pretty high likelihood of being correct. Do you think that statement is completely erroneous?

 

My understanding of your comments here and in other posts has been that you see atheism as the end result of a reasonable search for God. Once people accept that there is no proof for God, you seem to be saying, then they will finally give up their foolish notions that there is a big wish-granting sky-daddy and come to terms with the fact that any notion they have otherwise is just wishful thinking.

 

I have read your comments stating that you do not think this way. I think since we don't really have any numbers as to how many ex-Christians eventually become atheists, it is best to not assume this is "the" path. As for it being "a" path, I would concede to that assessment.

 

However, as I was trying to point out with my second post about Dawkins, even well-known atheists are willing to state that they cannot rule out the possibility that there is a god. Dawkins said in the video that he thinks the likelihood of there being a god is very slim, but he wouldn't rule it completely out. That leaves room for the possibility there is a god, even in atheism. We here in this section of the forum are those who believe there is a god and we do our damnedest to try to explain the unexplainable.

[sjessen]

 

Oh my dear Sjesson,

I have for you

a small suggestion.

We are and become

through relation.

 

It's all a great web.

And you'll see it

if attachment you shed.

 

In through perception

grappled through reason

out through prediction

and great hope for a

causal indication.

 

Sjesson moves

Sjesson proves

 

She is web

within web

 

Legion, I am really touched...I think. I really don't know what to say. No one has written a song for me before. I must confess, however, that I do not follow poetry very well and I am at a loss to understand what you are saying here.

[sjessen]

..I don't believe we come into the world with a "clean slate" either, since I believe in reincarnation.

 

Hi Deva, reincarnation. On what evidence?

 

There have been cases where children remember their former lives and those facts they remember about their lives have been verified. That convinces me.

[Legion]

I see wonderful things for you Sjesson. Your questions, the questions at your core, foretell to me a great journey ahead.

[sjessen]

I see wonderful things for you Sjesson. Your questions, the questions at your core, foretell to me a great journey ahead.

 

Wow, Legion, thank you!

[mcdaddy]

 

Oh my dear Sjesson,

I have for you

a small suggestion.

We are and become

through relation.

 

It's all a great web.

And you'll see it

if attachment you shed.

 

In through perception

grappled through reason

out through prediction

and great hope for a

causal indication.

 

Sjesson moves

Sjesson proves

 

She is web

within web

 

Legion, I am really touched...I think. I really don't know what to say. No one has written a song for me before. I must confess, however, that I do not follow poetry very well and I am at a loss to understand what you are saying here.

 

Welcome to the "wtf is legion saying?" club!

 

[mcdaddy]

..I don't believe we come into the world with a "clean slate" either, since I believe in reincarnation.

 

Hi Deva, reincarnation. On what evidence?

 

There have been cases where children remember their former lives and those facts they remember about their lives have been verified. That convinces me.

 

This is a big part of why I don't dismiss it.

[mcdaddy]

Well, im sorry you took it so personally. No, I view it as fact that "many ex-C's try other religions, before ultimately settling in on agnosticism/atheism". "many" can be a majority, or even a minority, depending on how you want to look at it. I'm only pointing out the obvious. Are you saying that this rarely happens? I guess I don't have raw data to back it up, so in that regards it is an opinion I guess. But I think it's a hunch that's got a pretty high likelihood of being correct. Do you think that statement is completely erroneous?

 

My understanding of your comments here and in other posts has been that you see atheism as the end result of a reasonable search for God. Once people accept that there is no proof for God, you seem to be saying, then they will finally give up their foolish notions that there is a big wish-granting sky-daddy and come to terms with the fact that any notion they have otherwise is just wishful thinking.

 

I have read your comments stating that you do not think this way. I think since we don't really have any numbers as to how many ex-Christians eventually become atheists, it is best to not assume this is "the" path. As for it being "a" path, I would concede to that assessment.

 

However, as I was trying to point out with my second post about Dawkins, even well-known atheists are willing to state that they cannot rule out the possibility that there is a god. Dawkins said in the video that he thinks the likelihood of there being a god is very slim, but he wouldn't rule it completely out. That leaves room for the possibility there is a god, even in atheism. We here in this section of the forum are those who believe there is a god and we do our damnedest to try to explain the unexplainable.

 

Exactly! As much as I "want" to be an outright "strong atheist" , "god" is a concept that cannot be proven or disproven, partly because the definition can be so different among different groups. So i cant be one because its impossible to prove that belief. Like I said previously, it all depends on how you define god.

 

Bible god, hell naw. I could be wrong tho.

[Legion]

I see wonderful things for you Sjesson. Your questions, the questions at your core, foretell to me a great journey ahead.

 

Wow, Legion, thank you!

 

You're welcome Sjessen. And I will try to spell your screen name correctly in the future.

[sjessen]

Piss, I just lost what I was writing. I'll try again...

 

McDaddy, with regard to your last post, I agree with you about biblegod. Like Thomas Paine asserts, the actions of the so-called God in the bible might better be attributed to a demon or devil than a god. IMO, the prophets of the OT were either making things up, or they were channeling some blood-thirsty entity of some kind (or the OT is just made up stories).

 

What is my definition of God? Well, to me God is a spirit or intelligent entity of immense power who causes the physical world(s) to exist in our perception. That's it in a nutshell. The rest would just be attributes of God.

[sjessen]

I see wonderful things for you Sjesson. Your questions, the questions at your core, foretell to me a great journey ahead.

 

Wow, Legion, thank you!

 

You're welcome Sjessen. And I will try to spell your screen name correctly in the future.

 

LOL No problem!

[Deva]

Never said it was my journey, I don't think. I did dabble with Buddhism very briefly though, and dont completely discard it. I was only saying its a path that many take.

 

 

I know you said "many ex-c's" rather than "all ex c's," but that kind of categorical statement doesn't sit well with me. It also implies that atheism is the only proper view of reality. Its this and the God-shaped hole statement I take exception to. Not anything regarding Buddhism. It may not be your journey but it is your opinion, isn't it?

 

Well, im sorry you took it so personally. No, I view it as fact that "many ex-C's try other religions, before ultimately settling in on agnosticism/atheism". "many" can be a majority, or even a minority, depending on how you want to look at it. I'm only pointing out the obvious. Are you saying that this rarely happens? I guess I don't have raw data to back it up, so in that regards it is an opinion I guess. But I think it's a hunch that's got a pretty high likelihood of being correct. Do you think that statement is completely erroneous?

 

Nothing personal. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just didn't like the way you phrased it, I guess. My experience in this area is limited mostly to what I see on this site. I don't see a lot of serious exploration of other religions here, although there might be many who do, and just don't post about it. I emphasize the word "serious" and not just dabbling. But I could be wrong.

 

No hard feelings or anything.

[mcdaddy]

Cool! Yeah I probly should have phrased things better, i wasn't as nuanced as I meant for it to be.

[sjessen]

Wow, I am researching for something I am writing and I ran across a book about a woman who had a NDE. For those interested, here is the website that describes her experience. This is the kind of thing I consider evidence of my beliefs.

 

http://anitamoorjani.com/?page_id=159

[Antlerman]

Wow, I am researching for something I am writing and I ran across a book about a woman who had a NDE. For those interested, here is the website that describes her experience. This is the kind of thing I consider evidence of my beliefs.

 

http://anitamoorjani.com/?page_id=159

I don't recall if we've discussed NDE's elsewhere, or if I spoke about my own with you. If not, I'm happy to discuss this again. I have a lot of thoughts I can add to this, and how I understand where she is coming from in how she speaks of the experience.

 

The key is understanding that the experiences are very similar, but how we talk about it depends on our frame of reference. To her she refers to it as literally crossing over to another dimension. That is how it was interpreted by her. I don't see it as 'going' anyway, leaving here and going there, for instance. I see it more as opening to what truly is reality, here. We see what is normally blocked by our own perceptions. Encountering this can be shocking, and the mind scrambles for a frame of reference. If she thinks in mythological terms, that is how it will be understood. It's not that what she experienced is invalid, by any means, but we have to be guarded to not take any understanding of that as representing a literal, metaphysical reality. Those understandings are symbolic of something vastly beyond those ways of interpreting them.

 

If you're interested, I highly recommend this hour and half long video. Believe me, it's not some 'skeptic debunking NDE' crap. He has some very good things to say which I found very helpful to me in understanding, and embracing, my own experience:

 

[sjessen]

Antlerman, I did not know you had had an NDE. Thanks for the video recommendation.

 

Something you said made me think of the illustration Anita Moorjani used of being in a warehouse with only a flashlight to see by, so you only know whatever the flashlight reveals. Then someone turns on the lights and you can see that there is so much more. Then the lights go off again and you are left with only the flashlight. Now, your reality has changed because you know there is more than what your flashlight reveals.

 

To me, NDEs are evidence that there is more out there than what we currently perceive. I would love to know what form that "more" takes, but it seems that our words will always fail in attempting to convey what someone like Anita Moorjani has experienced and has come to realize.

 

I only brought this up because some people on this board want proof and want to know what I consider to be proof. To me, this is evidence that, coupled together with others' experiences, convinces me that there is more out there for us.

[mcdaddy]

Well, NDE's are subjective. And anything subjective, that can't be objectively sensed and verified by others, can't be "evidence", at least under the definition I'm thinking of. Maybe it can be evidence, but it isn't " proof". Idk. It's semantics. Now I am NOT saying they are or arent what they appear to be (manifestations of some greater reality). I'm totally agnostic towards that. I still think it could be the mind tapping into a greater awareness, but also doesn't necessarily mean we have any sort of "afterlife". I know people who have had NDEs are 100% convinced it was "real", but again, that doesn't prove it was real. Damn, I wish I knew.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, I did not know you had had an NDE. Thanks for the video recommendation.

 

Something you said made me think of the illustration Anita Moorjani used of being in a warehouse with only a flashlight to see by, so you only know whatever the flashlight reveals. Then someone turns on the lights and you can see that there is so much more. Then the lights go off again and you are left with only the flashlight. Now, your reality has changed because you know there is more than what your flashlight reveals.

This is where it gets interesting. You mention, "Then the lights go off again and you are left with only the flashlight." Yes, how this is described is true to an extent, but it becomes more than that. For me anyway, it thereafter served as an incessant draw into itself for my entire life. It's what led me on my quest which I turned to religion for answers into it to satisfy that, which of course did not. It has served as that "omega point" which has shown me that Ultimate of our very being to reach towards, like a plant to the sun. My eyes had been opened and I yearned to again embrace and be embraced within that.

 

This is where I've spoken of peak experiences and structural adaptation. For 30 years I held that as the Ultimate Truth, the pinocle of my life experience. I've come to know now that these are not just arbitrary moments of that veil being pulled back to expose reality on this level, of which the NDE does amongst other peak experiences, but that they are repeatable through practice. We can enter into that room where all the lights are on, to use that metaphor, in a controlled manner. It is the same space where we 'go' in an NDE. I now practice meditation where I am able to enter into that on a daily basis. It most definitely is real, but not in the sense of some place outside ourselves. Not entirely so anyway. Not in the sense of it 'out there'. Looking at it that way is a limited understanding. There is no out there and in here, except in how we perceive that separation through the symbolic constructions of our minds of 'reality'.

 

The point of this is not that it tells us there is something beyond death, but that there is a reality right here in the present that is fully available to us at all times. "Death" only serves to break down our hold we have on the world as perceived and understood in these little island sacks of skin we call 'me'. At death, or the experience of dying, that identity is broken down and we see 'beyond' it. It is in that seeing that our identity shifts for this small "me" of our egoic structures, into that larger "I", which is Universal and Eternal in nature. A momentary glimpse into that is filtered by the mind in highly symbolic forms, since using symbols is what the mind does. We encounter the gods, or God - a Face of our Self we put on to it in order to bridge that divide between the separate self and Oneness.

 

Part of that symbolic reality is our mythological understanding of 'realms out there', the golden shores of life beyond death, and so on. In reality, there is no 'after life'. There is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow. There is only now, and now, and now, and now. It is not about what is 'out there' after death, but what is now, in the eternal now, that we are. To imagine it beyond this life is to not fully be that, it is actually an avoidance. Believing we must die to 'go to heaven' is to deny the reality of that here. It is to deny our true Nature.

 

To me, NDEs are evidence that there is more out there than what we currently perceive. I would love to know what form that "more" takes, but it seems that our words will always fail in attempting to convey what someone like Anita Moorjani has experienced and has come to realize.

Words are only reflections, and nothing can define what transcends all symbols. The only way to know it is to transcend death's door, so to speak. I should clarify that physical death is not the key factor, but rather that 'second death' that occurs at physical death. It is the death of "self", that mental, egoic self that we call 'me'. That is the illusion. And facing that end of 'self' is far more terrifying than physical death. You fall into that Abyss of consciousness, losing all that you clung tenaciously to in your life in order to protect yourself, that sense of self separate from the other. That is what an NDE does. It takes you to letting that go, letting go of fear of that death, the loss of your 'self'. And what opens to you is that liberation, that 'salvation' if you wish to use that word. You find your true Face, God beyond God, to use another term.

 

I only brought this up because some people on this board want proof and want to know what I consider to be proof. To me, this is evidence that, coupled together with others' experiences, convinces me that there is more out there for us.

What it proves is that there is in fact an objective component to such experiences. To understand the nature of what they are however, what they reveal, will only be known by entering into that space directly. There is no way that in all my words I can possibly convey the nature and reality of it without you going there yourself. The words are pointers, and experiencing the words is not experiencing it directly. What knowledge comes through that is in fact beyond all words. Poetry comes closest to expressing it, but it too is but a reflection. It affords a scent, a small flavor of that Ocean beyond them.

[sjessen]

Antlerman, I find what you are saying quite fascinating. I am wondering what you think about something else Anita says about her experience. I am wondering if you have the same or similar understanding. Here is the quote from her website:

 

I saw all people as “energy”, and depending where our energy level was, that was the world we created for ourselves. The understanding I gained from this was that if cancer was not in our “energy”, then it was not in our reality. If feeling good about ourselves was in our energy, then our reality would be positive. If cancer was in our energy, then even if we eradicated it with modern medicine, it would soon come back. But if we cleared it from our energy, the physical body would soon follow. None of us are as “real” or physical as we think we are. From what I saw, it looked like we are energy first, and physical is only a result of expressing our energy. And we can change our physical reality if we change our energy. (Some people have mentioned I use the term “Vibration”). For me, personally, I was made to feel that in order to keep my energy/vibration level up, I only had to live in the moment, enjoy every moment of life, and use each moment to elevate the next moment (which then elevates my future). It is in that moment of elevating your energy level that you can change your future (like my test results). It sounds very simplistic, but it felt very deep when I was experiencing the understanding of it. ~ Anita Moorjani

 

I ask this because I have a chronic health condition. I have been interested in meditating and was wondering how to go about it. Then I read this and I thought that perhaps I would meditate and work at learning to be in the now and increase my vibration level with the hope that it might be healing. Anita mentions in the above quote how to go about it and I found a book called frequency that discusses this matter. What are your thoughts about this?

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, I find what you are saying quite fascinating. I am wondering what you think about something else Anita says about her experience. I am wondering if you have the same or similar understanding. Here is the quote from her website:

 

I saw all people as “energy”, and depending where our energy level was, that was the world we created for ourselves. The understanding I gained from this was that if cancer was not in our “energy”, then it was not in our reality. If feeling good about ourselves was in our energy, then our reality would be positive. If cancer was in our energy, then even if we eradicated it with modern medicine, it would soon come back. But if we cleared it from our energy, the physical body would soon follow. None of us are as “real” or physical as we think we are. From what I saw, it looked like we are energy first, and physical is only a result of expressing our energy. And we can change our physical reality if we change our energy. (Some people have mentioned I use the term “Vibration”). For me, personally, I was made to feel that in order to keep my energy/vibration level up, I only had to live in the moment, enjoy every moment of life, and use each moment to elevate the next moment (which then elevates my future). It is in that moment of elevating your energy level that you can change your future (like my test results). It sounds very simplistic, but it felt very deep when I was experiencing the understanding of it. ~ Anita Moorjani

 

I ask this because I have a chronic health condition. I have been interested in meditating and was wondering how to go about it. Then I read this and I thought that perhaps I would meditate and work at learning to be in the now and increase my vibration level with the hope that it might be healing. Anita mentions in the above quote how to go about it and I found a book called frequency that discusses this matter. What are your thoughts about this?

Yes and no. I understand what she says about seeing everyone as energy. I agree we are. I recall my first experience of this at 18 years of age where the entire Universe opened to me and I saw Light everywhere. It was in all things, through all things, and to all things. I saw people walking and they were Light, from them and to them, but they were unaware of it. I could see themselves in the world in their own minds, living inside their heads and unaware of what they were. That I understand when she says she saw this. I have a friend who described a similar experience to me which she had recently.

 

Where I disagree to a point is that we can ultimately manipulate things like death and disease, or walk on water, or fly, etc. I most certainly do believe that our 'energy', being aligned within us promotes health. Most definitely. So much of our diseases is due to stresses in the body, and when the mind and spirit are aligned we experience better health. However we can't fix a broken bone, regrow limbs, etc. I don't doubt the body does respond to mind, and certain diseases may in fact be 'cured' though the mind - the placebo effect demonstrates this. And the stronger the mind, the more attune it is to itself, not just in thinking and reasoning but in consciousness itself, the more direct relations to the body that may occur. But we are however material beings as well, and the material follows rules itself that are for the most part stable.

 

As I alluded to before, people who experience these higher states, the subtle and causal states, will typically interpret these in the frameworks of how they normally perceive and think of the world. To a person who thinks in magical terms, seeing this Energy in people is interpreted in much the way I heard her express. To a person who thinks in mythological terms, they will externalize this as the Holy Spirit, 2nd person of the Trinity. To a rational and transrational person, they understand it differently than either. The one common thing is that the experience is there. It is profound, it transcends what we normally see as reality, and its effects are profound beyond words.

 

Practice meditation? Absolutely. Everyone should. It's not tied to any belief system, but to the nature of who we are. Getting in touch with that has nothing but positive benefits. However I should qualify that you should not be suffering from any actual mental illnesses such as bi-polar or schizophrenia or depression. If so, you should really practice under guidance. Going inward that deeply can send confused messages to the waking mind if there are misfirings going on in there. Those subtle signals can become confused in how they are understood if your mind is dysfunctional. In that case in can be unhealthy. But in a relatively stable psyche, it takes that and opens it like a flower to the sun.

 

P.S. I should add that when I first started meditating the unexpected response I had led me to just say over and over, "I feel healed". I had no idea how much out of balance I actually was in being 'normal'. We all are that way and just don't realize how much yet until you can actually experience what it is to not be that way. From there, it becomes a process of learning to integrate this into your daily life, where 'normal' is that liberation, that clarity, that balance.

[sjessen]

Practice meditation? Absolutely. Everyone should. It's not tied to any belief system, but to the nature of who we are. Getting in touch with that has nothing but positive benefits. However I should qualify that you should not be suffering from any actual mental illnesses such as bi-polar or schizophrenia or depression. If so, you should really practice under guidance. Going inward that deeply can send confused messages to the waking mind if there are misfirings going on in there. Those subtle signals can become confused in how they are understood if your mind is dysfunctional. In that case in can be unhealthy.

 

Hmm Well, I do have some depression that I am currently taking medicine for. The medications I have been on in the past for my disease, like prednisone, have apparently screwed up my system, including my brain, hence the need for anti-depressant medication. Perhaps it would be better if I just work on being in the now and thinking happy thoughts. Christianity screwed up my brain too (along with high doses of prednisone) and I don't want to go back there! Yeah, thanks for the warning. I think I'll heed it and tread lightly.

 

I agree with you about the whole manifesting your own healing thing. Just like eating healthy and exercising, these things, I think, can help you feel better, but they are not a cure-all for disease. Anita went through something extraordinary and her healing was incredible. I tend to think, however, it was because of her extraordinary NDE that she was able to heal like that. I have become skeptical after 23 years of looking for a cure. There really does not seem to be one. I have come to the conclusion that doing these things will help me to feel the best I possibly can, but they are not cures. Some diseases can be cured through diet/exercise/energy work, but not all.

[Antlerman]

Practice meditation? Absolutely. Everyone should. It's not tied to any belief system, but to the nature of who we are. Getting in touch with that has nothing but positive benefits. However I should qualify that you should not be suffering from any actual mental illnesses such as bi-polar or schizophrenia or depression. If so, you should really practice under guidance. Going inward that deeply can send confused messages to the waking mind if there are misfirings going on in there. Those subtle signals can become confused in how they are understood if your mind is dysfunctional. In that case in can be unhealthy.

 

Hmm Well, I do have some depression that I am currently taking medicine for. The medications I have been on in the past for my disease, like prednisone, have apparently screwed up my system, including my brain, hence the need for anti-depressant medication. Perhaps it would be better if I just work on being in the now and thinking happy thoughts. Christianity screwed up my brain too (along with high doses of prednisone) and I don't want to go back there! Yeah, thanks for the warning. I think I'll heed it and tread lightly.

 

I agree with you about the whole manifesting your own healing thing. Just like eating healthy and exercising, these things, I think, can help you feel better, but they are not a cure-all for disease. Anita went through something extraordinary and her healing was incredible. I tend to think, however, it was because of her extraordinary NDE that she was able to heal like that. I have become skeptical after 23 years of looking for a cure. There really does not seem to be one. I have come to the conclusion that doing these things will help me to feel the best I possibly can, but they are not cures. Some diseases can be cured through diet/exercise/energy work, but not all.

It could be that you do have some deficiency biologically where you've been depressed without any environmental factors going on. I don't know you like that. I do know that some doctors are quick to shove a pill at the problem, even if some good Cognitive Behavioral Therapy might be the actual fix and be more effective without drugs. Some doctors go the easy route that way and give you a pill instead. A psychiatrist is trained to think medically for the most part as well, whereas a psychologist approaches things differently. You can ask your doctor about meditation, or seek out others as well for their advice. Mindfulness is extraordinarily helpful for things like anxieties. Anxieties can lead to depression as well I'm sure. So to me looking at the source is a factor, rather than just assuming a pill is necessary. It may be, or it may not be.

 

The thing with the meditation I practice is that it goes deep into the subconscious mind. I got Carl Jung's Red Book for Christmas this last year, which is his personal diary of his journey into the subconscious of his own mind, upon which all his later academic works are based. Reading his diary like this is like reading my own meditation journal! Every time I pick it up and read it I say, "That's it! He says it perfectly!". Who we are in that deep subconscious mind is always aware of the world as speaking though to us in non-verbal ways, affecting and influencing us. When you meditate this way, you directly open the door to that to arise to your conscious mind. It speaks in symbols and archetypes, from that place of the non-verbal self, and that of our deep history as a species into the 'collective unconscious' as Jung calls it.

 

I describe it as the subconscious being made conscious through the super-conscious mind. That's where the healing is. All the parts are brought together and made aware of each other into who we are. I described this experience in my first 5 months of meditation as like going through 15 years of psychotherapy. All that psychotherapists try to do anyway is facilitate you finding out how to find that in yourself. Mediation cuts straight through to it directly.

 

Aside from that, there are just regular old mindfulness practice that is truly beneficial, like exercise as you say. But should you wish to truly connect with that "Divine", that Infinite Light, in a real and transforming way, then there is always deeper places to go into.

[roadrunner]

PanenDeism is a modernized version of Deism. I find this classification seems to fit my beliefs pretty well. I thought I would use this thread to post things relating to Panendeism and converse with you about the subject.

 

If you don't mind me asking...why did you leave xianity? and what led you to panendeism? was it the idea that this cant be all for nothing? its very honorable for you and everyone on this site to have left xianity in a culture that clings to it. However, I was always curious why so many that reject the xian god embrace anything else.

 

Please dont consider this an attack as i saw earlier in the thread that this can be touchy. I am merely inquiring. this is ex-christian.net not thereisnogod.com. While none of us can be 100% sure in anything (dawkins included as you listed earlier) we all have in ouru minds what we believe to be a "safe bet" I find religion and spirituality very interesting since leaving the fold so it good for me to learn other perspectives. or at least as many as I can.