Panendeism

[Antlerman]

its very honorable for you and everyone on this site to have left xianity in a culture that clings to it. However, I was always curious why so many that reject the xian god embrace anything else.

If you don't mind me offering a response since this would be asking me as well. In reality everyone embraces something. Atheists for instance embrace a worldview that envisions a world freed from religious oppression and ignorance, and fighting against religion is the means to that end for many who identify as that. For others they embrace a worldview that seeks to include the good parts of religion while jettisoning the outgrown and now unhealthy parts, because their experience says to them that the pursuit of spirituality is positive, once freed from ignorance and oppression as well. The question then is really what positive things do we get from spirituality, and how are we able to embrace that baby without sucking down the bathwater of myth along with it? How can we be rational and spiritual at the same time? Is that possible? Those seem to be the real questions.

 

Please dont consider this an attack as i saw earlier in the thread that this can be touchy.

No, I don't take it that way at all. In fact, this is precisely the sorts of discussion I would love to see more often. It shows trying to understand another perspective in genuine dialog, as opposed to just assuming others are just weak-minded or something because they now have the real truth all figured out and why don't they too now. I enjoy questions like these, and will happily offer responses.

 

While none of us can be 100% sure in anything (dawkins included as you listed earlier) we all have in ouru minds what we believe to be a "safe bet"

I think that's part of the problem in understanding. There are many different approaches to living life, and thinking in strictly dualistic terms is only one of them. By that I mean by asking which is the 'safest bet', that suggests that how we should live is a matter of figuring out what is true versus what is false, or the closest we can safely come to those two variables. Where for others, life is more like learning to navigate the currents of wind in an ever evolving dynamic reality. For me personally I see embracing that aspect of living, along with those 'safer bets' reality of a more steady and sure world such as what the pursuit of scientific and rational understanding can offer, are integral and indispensable in the whole experience of our being fully human.

 

I fully get the rational side, and why I appreciate those who show how myth is not literal reality. But I also understand that that is not the end of the story by any means. To me who we are internally as humans is expressed through these symbols, and they are more than just some pre-science, pre-rational placeholder in our state of scientific ignorance. They are that as well, but they were, and are symbols of expression of our genuine spiritual natures that are experienced, and understood through that experience alone. It is the pursuit of understanding that through direct experience, not within in a context of a rational understanding, but not denying rationality in its pursuit, is to me a liberation from strict dualistic thinking, both in religious and secular thought. And that has become the true path of exploration for myself; to know myself in the world and move and grow within those spaces.

 

I find religion and spirituality very interesting since leaving the fold so it good for me to learn other perspectives. or at least as many as I can.

I hope this offered some interesting thoughts to consider for you.

[sjessen]

PanenDeism is a modernized version of Deism. I find this classification seems to fit my beliefs pretty well. I thought I would use this thread to post things relating to Panendeism and converse with you about the subject.

 

If you don't mind me asking...why did you leave xianity? and what led you to panendeism? was it the idea that this cant be all for nothing? its very honorable for you and everyone on this site to have left xianity in a culture that clings to it. However, I was always curious why so many that reject the xian god embrace anything else.

 

Please dont consider this an attack as i saw earlier in the thread that this can be touchy. I am merely inquiring. this is ex-christian.net not thereisnogod.com. While none of us can be 100% sure in anything (dawkins included as you listed earlier) we all have in ouru minds what we believe to be a "safe bet" I find religion and spirituality very interesting since leaving the fold so it good for me to learn other perspectives. or at least as many as I can.

 

Hi Roadrunner,

 

No I don't mind you asking and I don't consider this an attack at all.

 

I left Christianity because I discovered that the Bible is not the word of God like I had been taught to believe. After that, the whole religion fell apart as I realized that there was much about it that I did not care for or believe was right or healthy; concepts such as original sin, hell, sacrifices, never measuring up, thought crimes, etc.

 

I wasn't really led to Panendeism, it just fits what I believe. I didn't adopt it's ideas, I already had the ideas in my mind. I got my ideas mainly from nature. It seems likely to me that there is a creator/designer of what exists. The diversity and genius behind what is created and the laws that govern nature speaks to me of there being a vast power and intelligence behind it. I also sense that there is a spiritual aspect to life beyond the physical. As we are extremely limited in what we are able to detect, I think this is highly likely, especially since many people are able to detect this aspect of life.

 

The hope that this isn't all there is has been a part of prompting me to continue the search and acknowledge what I believe, but is not the reason I believe.

[roadrunner]

Ok after re-reading my comment I can see that it could have been misinterpreted. Let me clarify some things so I dont sound like a jerk.

 

I dont really wonder how one can be rational and spiritual at the same time. For instance.....

 

1. I can see the benefits of meditation, I don't do it often but I have before and it is kinda invigorating. I probably should do it more.

2. The rush of emotion from seeing happy people (kids playing, a touchy love story, people being emotional at airports when a loved one returns, poor person getting a surprise check from a visitor, you name it)

3. Inspiring stories of people who have overcome in the face of adversity.

4. The anxiety when looking at nature (how a seed and grow into redwood), the vastness of the night sky (the multitude of stars), and cosmos (a vast ocean of space and time)....and then there's "little old nothing me". Its humbling.

 

All of these are things that I have personally experienced that I think are "spiritual", meaning these are instances where we "leave ourselves" and experience a feeling that is out of the ordinary. An "emotional high" per se. Personally, since leaving xianity, I attribute these feelings and others like it to psychology and not spirituality but that doesn't mean im right. But I can definitely understand why you and other feel there is a spiritual realm.

 

Also, when I say "safest bet" I mean this...... Thinking in duelist terms is an argument from ignorance. We all CAN'T be right. But we all CAN be wrong meaning there are more than two choices. However, you only live here in this life once so what you do has a direct effect on what each of us "thinks" is to come later....if there is anything. As an ex-christian (assuming you all are since you are on ex-christian.net), to reject salvation is to place your trust in a concept that "trumps" xianity to you personally. Meaning you feel that "deism is a safer bet than xianity, buddism, hinduism, etc". To you, deism is the safest bet. Thats what i meant. I don't necessarily want to introduce pascals wager or anything but you know.

 

A few follow up questions though....

 

Was that a somewhat accurate description of what spirituality is to you?

For you was the "diversity and genius" in nature where you saw and experienced the xian god when you were a believer?

How long have you been out of xianity?

When you say "especially, since many people are able to detect this aspect of life", can you elaborate on that?

I noticed "hope that this isn't all there is" in your comment. Are you saddened by the idea that this might be all there is?

[mcdaddy]

PanenDeism is a modernized version of Deism. I find this classification seems to fit my beliefs pretty well. I thought I would use this thread to post things relating to Panendeism and converse with you about the subject.

 

If you don't mind me asking...why did you leave xianity? and what led you to panendeism? was it the idea that this cant be all for nothing? its very honorable for you and everyone on this site to have left xianity in a culture that clings to it. However, I was always curious why so many that reject the xian god embrace anything else.

 

Please dont consider this an attack as i saw earlier in the thread that this can be touchy. I am merely inquiring. this is ex-christian.net not thereisnogod.com. While none of us can be 100% sure in anything (dawkins included as you listed earlier) we all have in ouru minds what we believe to be a "safe bet" I find religion and spirituality very interesting since leaving the fold so it good for me to learn other perspectives. or at least as many as I can.

 

 

It seems likely to me that there is a creator/designer of what exists. The diversity and genius behind what is created and the laws that govern nature speaks to me of there being a vast power and intelligence behind it. I also sense that there is a spiritual aspect to life beyond the physical. As we are extremely limited in what we are able to detect, I think this is highly likely, especially since many people are able to detect this aspect of life.

 

 

If I could, I'd also like to pick your brain a little more.

 

I more or less agree with you on the second part (about something "more" out there , or however you'd like to describe it), but the first part (design) I don't necessarily agree with. Does "beauty" in nature lend itself to persuade you that there's a "creator"? I also see the same "beauty" you see, but I think a more applicable term is "diversity"- diversity through evolution. Seeing that something simple can and does evolve through natural processes into something "beautiful" doesn't , for some reason, lend me to believe in a higher power. If the earth you lived on we're more uniform, would that change your mind? Or is there something just intrinsic in reality itself that leads you to think of our world as designed?

 

Thx,

McD

[Antlerman]

Ok after re-reading my comment I can see that it could have been misinterpreted. Let me clarify some things so I dont sound like a jerk.

 

I dont really wonder how one can be rational and spiritual at the same time. For instance.....

 

1. I can see the benefits of meditation, I don't do it often but I have before and it is kinda invigorating. I probably should do it more.

2. The rush of emotion from seeing happy people (kids playing, a touchy love story, people being emotional at airports when a loved one returns, poor person getting a surprise check from a visitor, you name it)

3. Inspiring stories of people who have overcome in the face of adversity.

4. The anxiety when looking at nature (how a seed and grow into redwood), the vastness of the night sky (the multitude of stars), and cosmos (a vast ocean of space and time)....and then there's "little old nothing me". Its humbling.

 

All of these are things that I have personally experienced that I think are "spiritual", meaning these are instances where we "leave ourselves" and experience a feeling that is out of the ordinary. An "emotional high" per se. Personally, since leaving xianity, I attribute these feelings and others like it to psychology and not spirituality but that doesn't mean im right. But I can definitely understand why you and other feel there is a spiritual realm.

As for point 1 above, definitely you should practice meditation every day. There is nothing but good that comes from it on every level. The other you cite I don't really associate with spirituality per se, but through those however you may experience a spiritual connection to the world. Emotional highs are not the same as spirituality, IMHO. Spirituality is a sense of being itself that moves beyond just our limited self-sense. Emotions may be a vehicle to such experiences, but they shouldn't be understood as spirituality itself. Emotions may or may not be part of it.

 

To be clear, it is commonly misunderstood that spirituality is some "realm", as if there is some plane or dimension beyond this world that we tap into. I very much reject that idea. I believe all that is is spiritual, and all that we do in our various moments of experiencing it that directly is pulling back the veil to see what is actually, already, fully there and ours. Its seeing and experiencing our true nature, our prior self before we even became "us". It is this realm, and the unreality is to imagine ourselves separate from that.

 

Why is it that people, mystics, says this? Because life becomes experienced that way in ourselves. Being 'spiritual', is almost actually a misnomer in this way. What we really experience is a true Self and not the illusion. We only call it something other than normal because we see it as removed from us. That's an internal perception, not an objective truth. So instead of saying we are seeking spirituality, we should say we are trying to become who we really are. A much different understanding than seeing it as some realm 'out there'.

 

Also, when I say "safest bet" I mean this...... Thinking in duelist terms is an argument from ignorance. We all CAN'T be right. But we all CAN be wrong meaning there are more than two choices.

Why can't we all be right? You see, that's what I mean by dualistic thinking. It assumes there is some static, objective truth that if I am indeed right and you don't see it this way, it means you are by default wrong. I think that way of thinking is only valid when dealing with relatively stable systems, such as physics. Good luck extending that into questions of value and meaning, morality, and all manner of other human truths which comprise the experience of reality for us, beyond just the law of gravity.

 

This is the problem of Modernity, despite its important advances in human knowledge. This is where postmodernity comes along and shows the fallacy of this sort of notion is demonstrating the relative nature of truth. But they too make the same mistake in saying that since modernity is in error, that they are right themselves, which is the inherent problem as a self-contradiction. I say Modernity is right and postmodernity is right, and that it only appears mutually exclusive because of how the whole argument is framed. They are rightly forms of truth, but not Truth itself. Truth itself is not something we can comprehend and define as any one truth.

 

However, you only live here in this life once so what you do has a direct effect on what each of us "thinks" is to come later....if there is anything. As an ex-christian (assuming you all are since you are on ex-christian.net), to reject salvation is to place your trust in a concept that "trumps" xianity to you personally.

No. That's the misunderstanding. It is not replacing one idea or concept for another. It is not changing religions. It is not about a better 'belief'. In fact, the spiritual utterly transcends belief altogether. Beliefs are not the basis for spiritual awarness. In fact, they can very well pose a hindrance to it if they are held as that Truth itself. This is what the Christian does. They say you are 'saved' by correct belief, correct thinking, through which you then act correctly in accord with these correct or true beliefs. That's dog crap. And what I see happen in a huge number of cases, and understandably so, is that when we say Christianity is bullshit, meaning what it says are facts turn out to be not-facts, people go off now looking to replace that with something that does actually, really offer those facts they were trained to look for! That's the source of the problem right there.

 

I mention this story often of my good friend, whom I like to chide. He and I were in Bible College together and graduated the same year. Years later we ran into each other by chance again to discover we both had left the Church for similar reasons. We were out to eat one afternoon and he said, "Wow, I'm so glad I really know the truth now!". I chuckled and said to him, "I remember you and I believing that and saying those exact same words together when we were in Bible College". He paused and then answered, "Yeah, but the difference is now I really DO have the truth!". This is what I mean in saying we are simply changing what we believe in, not HOW we believe. The latter is far more radical of a change than simply no longer believe X is true, and now instead believe Y is true because it has the better evidence. That's all just the flip side of the exact same coin.

 

So no, it's not just the best bet for what is really true to put our beliefs in. It's about exploring the reality of our very being itself beyond how we think or believe. That is not based on teachings or doctrines. It is not a rational or cognitive pursuit. It is an existential realization about ourselves, and we find that beliefs are mere tools that help support us on that development of that self-realization, that when they are true inasmuch as they are useful for the time.

 

Chistianity in fact WAS a valid truth for me, when I was where I was in my development. I didn't leave it because it was "a lie". I left it because it was no longer true for me where I was at, looking at the questions I was, yearning for the depth of spirituality I was. Thinking in mythic-literal ways was a developmental mode of thought within a spiritual framework, and mistaken as epistemological in nature. It was valid at that stage, but today it would be detrimental and 'false' for me to simply just 'believe' it because that somehow, magically, means your 'saved'. That's simply not valid outside the context of those who need external, absolute truths in which to navigate themselves in the world. My world is much larger than that, and it also likewise can't reside in another belief such as which says "No, we have the truth because we have evidence!". I don't think this way any longer.

 

Meaning you feel that "deism is a safer bet than xianity, buddism, hinduism, etc". To you, deism is the safest bet. Thats what i meant. I don't necessarily want to introduce pascals wager or anything but you know.

I see all of these as systems to help us find ourselves through them, but as the Buddha so wonderfully put, and I completely agree with,

 

"To insist on a spiritual practice that served you in the past, is to carry the raft on your back after you've crossed the river".

 

These are rafts, not the Truth itself. The same is true of atheism as well. Those who insist on them as the Truth, are either not seeing the shore they're heading to and mistaking the raft as the destination, or they feel beholden to a belief, or a tradition and haven't realized they are free to be who they truly are now.

[roadrunner]

wow. thats deep!