silentknight Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 SK, you know I love you man, right? Wish I could take you to Kinko's and make a bunch of copies of you. I don't know how to respond to that, except "thanks" The feeling is mutual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MultifariousBirdLady Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Kurari, I have seen others treated the way you have been. It seems that anyone with a pregnancy is fair game for being told what to do and then psychoanalyzed if they do anything the other person disagrees with. I chose to get sterilized at 26, with no children, and to a lesser extent I get a bit of the same. There is one thing you said that I am not quite sure I entirely agree with: This debate is not about abortion or medicine. It's about control. Man is under God, woman is under man, and child is under woman. I think this is exactly right except perhaps for the last phrase. There are some good arguments out there about how it could be argued that woman is even regarded by some as "under child" in several ways... her most important role as "incubator" in some people's eyes being first on the list, followed by all the "shoulds" that she must uphold in order to "be a good mother" while bringing up baby. Several books and essays get into this issue, including -- for those interested -- the chapter called "Are Mothers Persons?" in Susan Bordo's Unbearable Weight and a new controversial book on modern motherhood called The Conflict where Elisabeth Badinter argues that "the baby is the best ally of masculine domination." (Before anybody slams me or thinks I'm railing against being responsible for ones' chilren, I'm absolutely not. Of course children need care and parents need to ensure they get it. What I'm referring to here and what Badinter seems to be referring to is a kind of pressure to be a "supermom" in ways that don't let women get any rest from that job at all. I think one of the reasons for this is the breakdown of close-knit community ties and their replacement with nuclear families... especially when certain kinds of child care are expected to be exclusively a woman's job. Sarah Hrdy makes a very good case in Mother Nature that kids and moms are both greatly benefited by communities where parenting can be frequently shared with "alloparents" -- alternate caregivers -- and that these alternate caregivers are very important in many indigenous cultures.) Kudos to all the modern parents out there -- both women and men -- who parent well on their own terms in a way that's right for their own families. While the Access side is concerned with making sure every woman receives the medical care they want and need (which includes prenatal care), Pro-LIARS only wish to see women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. The Pro-Liars don't care about fetuses. They just use them as a platform to preach and gain power. Listen to them talk about children sometime. They are "consequences," and "In/conveniences." Not children. Calling children "consequences" in my view directly stems from the idea that pregnancy is a "punishment" for the "sin" of premarital sex. They scream holy hell at the very idea of increasing welfare to care for these unwanted children and their parents, or even giving prenatal care to women who can't afford the prohibitively expensive cost of caring for themselves in pregnancy and birth. Wake Up Little Suzie provides a lot of evidence about how, during the "baby scoop era," pregnant unwed white women were thought to be "redeemed" if they participated in the heavily coercive adoption practices mentioned upthread, since they had marketable white babies that could essentially buy them a kind of salvation if they "unselfishly" gave them away, whereas pregnant unwed black women were labeled as overly sexual and criticized as having kids just to mooch more off of welfare. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. In the end, it seems that what a number of pro-lifers seem to want to do is to restrict everyone to choosing between celibacy and bringing Every Single Pregnancy to full term with a healthy birth. God forbid if you have a miscarriage, because they just might prosecute you. I've never seen anything out of the anti-abortion side that makes me think they're about anything but destroying women's independence. The rank and file I'm a lot more gentle toward; I know they don't understand what's motivating their leadership. Very few of them have actually looked far past the "saving precious babies" stated agenda and many don't understand that ending a woman's right to decide how her body is used is detrimental to ALL humans, not just to women facing unwanted pregnancies. And if anybody's been tricked, it's the kindhearted people at the bottom of the pile who don't get what the real agenda is here. I've been trying to find that court case upholding the rights of a guy who was almost forced into donating a chunk of his liver to a dying relative under "presumed consent," and can't find it, so here's a nice legal writeup about something very similar. Thanks for this. I think this contains several really important arguments. Perhaps of particular interest to many on here is the part about how anti-abortion laws "make women, as a class, involuntary servants to fetuses," discriminate on the basis of sex, and "force all citizens to conform to particular religious beliefs." Also, the first part quoting the 13th Amendment struck me with respect to pre-Roe-v-Wade adoption practices, too: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude ... shall exist within the United States. So many pregnant women who were sent away in secrecy to relinquish children for adoption were put through exactly this. During their time in "homes for unwed mothers" it was not unusual for them to be "used as free slave labour." This stuff is all related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Here's another woman to come out about her abortion history... *shock* *horror* I have had TWO!! The first was medicinal, the second was surgical, both done at 8 weeks. The medicinal was agonizing in that it took so long to happen, but the surgical was super painful. I was on oral contraceptives when I conceived both. One would be almost 9 years old right now. It was not a decision I came to lightly, but you stated it well when you said that you pondered the question, and decided that having a baby would make your life a living hell! I am financially unable to support a child due to my student loan debt, and I have no close family to support me. My mother and father are both dead and I am an only child. I have faced incredible judgment whenever I have come out about my history and I can never understand why it is so among fellow atheists and agnostics. Personally, all the intellectual bullshit about ethics and shit does not matter to me, and I was a philosophy major! This is all about me having control over my life. This issue IS about men controlling women. There are some who feel that life is truly sacred... great, if you are a woman, then don't get an abortion if you will be guilt-ridden for life. Adoption is an option. If you are a man and you somehow feel that you should have an opinion on what happens to my embryo that should be legislated, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Unless, of course, you are the father. Sure, there are shades of grey along the spectrum of life, if you can understand what I mean. For me, a nervous system complex enough to feel pain is where I draw the line. However, I would never judge or disallow abortions after that point because there are exceptions. Abortion before that point is no more than taking life from a worm IMO. Yes, life is snuffed out... but the value of that life is in practicality much less valuable than my life. Sure, we can pontificate all day about choice, freedom, the true value of potential and life, etc... but none of that has ANYTHING to do with a PRACTICAL solution. Talk about it in your philosophy classes, fine. Try taking it to Congress and I will want to murder you. Women will always have abortions and attempt to end pregnancies in disregard to laws. Legislating them is just a fucking dumb idea. These are embryos, people... not your gramma and granpa. Stop the dictatorship of babies and men over women. Thank you. This has me so emotional that I can hardly type out a response that makes any sense... but I have a feeling at least a couple women on here feel me. Here's a quote from a Catholic pro-life nun that I think EVERYONE should think very deeply about. "I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born and not fed, not educated, and not housed. And why would you think that I don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation about what the morality of pro-life is." ~Sister Joan Chittister (I love nuns. I have never met one or read about one or read one of a nun's works that wasn't completely compassionate and non-judgmental. I believe and hope they will change the Catholic Church.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MultifariousBirdLady Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Adoption is an option. It is, and it is a very good option for some people, but one of the things that concerns me is that a lot more pain can come with that option than most people realize. I hear pro-lifers especially glibly say that women who want abortions should just give the child up for adoption, as if it were some magic solution that is perfect for everyone. It just isn't. Most of them have no idea what some women go through after relinquishing. Here's a quote from a Catholic pro-life nun that I think EVERYONE should think very deeply about. "I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born and not fed, not educated, and not housed. And why would you think that I don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation about what the morality of pro-life is." ~Sister Joan Chittister That's a wonderful quote! Thanks for sharing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Adoption is an option. It is, and it is a very good option for some people, but one of the things that concerns me is that a lot more pain can come with that option than most people realize. I hear pro-lifers especially glibly say that women who want abortions should just give the child up for adoption, as if it were some magic solution that is perfect for everyone. It just isn't. Most of them have no idea what some women go through after relinquishing. Here's a quote from a Catholic pro-life nun that I think EVERYONE should think very deeply about. "I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born and not fed, not educated, and not housed. And why would you think that I don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation about what the morality of pro-life is." ~Sister Joan Chittister That's a wonderful quote! Thanks for sharing it. I agree with you... I couldn't bear to know my child is out there wondering who I am or what I look like. An open adoption would be even more painful emotionally for me. The teeny bit of guilt I felt for having a couple abortions is NOTHING to the guilt I feel when I even merely think about that "option." I greatly admire the women who do that, but if that were a forced "option" there would be waaaay too many children in foster homes and group homes. There just aren't that many people willing to adopt American-born babies. Practicality, people... let go of your high-brow intellectual ideals and think about what would work IN REAL LIFE. This is a real-life issue with far-reaching consequences past the birth of a baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Real life always trumps ideals. There are people out there that see things in black and white. Either you're good or you're bad. Real life is so much more complex. I've only met maybe one or two people I would consider bad people. Everyone does what they think is best for their situation. I think it's wrong to judge someone. When I see someone that had to make a decision as big as choosing to abort I feel compassion, not anger or disgust. I wish more people would take just a second or to and put themselves in another's shoes before judging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Real life always trumps ideals. There are people out there that see things in black and white. Either you're good or you're bad. Real life is so much more complex. I've only met maybe one or two people I would consider bad people. Everyone does what they think is best for their situation. I think it's wrong to judge someone. When I see someone that had to make a decision as big as choosing to abort I feel compassion, not anger or disgust. I wish more people would take just a second or to and put themselves in another's shoes before judging them. Well said. I hope you were not offended by my comments. You are one of the rare men who takes a reasonable stance. All love, all love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I knew what you meant. No offense taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I never considered adoption either. Between my stalking fundie ex who was convinced, despite all biological impossibility, that it was "his" and my general terror of the pain, expense, and physical risks, that embryo didn't stand a chance. The father went with me, and he was the only guy there. WTF. But no adoptions for me. Even aside from the concerns I noted, I grew up knowing that my unexpected arrival had ruined my mom's life. Though I know she loved me dearly and would have happily taken a bullet for me, that's not an awesome thing to think. When utterly inhuman, un-empathetic asshats try to lecture me about the MIRACLE OF WOOBIEHOOD BABIES and whatnot it's hard to control the fist of death. It feels like they're painting the portrait with only their own opinions and experiences, and not knowing or even caring about any other contradicting opinions and experiences. Thank you, Pandora, for talking about your experience and standing with Kurari and me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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