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bornagainathiest

Atheist Demolishes Christian's Beliefs - In Their Own Forum!

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http://www.christian...s.com/t7686721/

 

11th September 2012, 01:43 AM

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icon5.gifimpossible paradoxes of faith

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

 

1. god is omniscient

2. god is loving

3. god is merciful

4. hell exists

5. free will exists

 

Question:

 

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In Christianforums.com there's an area where non-Christians are permitted to 'Explore Christianity' by asking questions.

The atheist, Doctor Truth does so and then proceeds to skilfully demolish every answer the Christians throw at him.

 

The Christians...

 

* Manipulate the wording of his question to suit their own purposes..... (but the Dr. T is having none of that)

* Change the meaning of the Doctor's five assumptions to suit themselves..... (nor that)

* Add other factors to his question to suit their own ends..... (nor that either)

* Tell the Doc that the question is actually another one that has already been answered..... (and not that)

* Tell the Doc that the five assumptions present a distorted view of God.... (ditto)

* Tell the Doc that God's mind is unknowable by man's mind.... ( Oy vey!)

* Tell the Doc that God predestines some to people to Hell, but He's still a loving God!

* Complain that no answer is good enough for Atheists who are determined to deny of vilify God

* Make ad hominem attacks against the Doc and other atheists

* Refuse or fail to answer the Doc's straightforward questions

 

In short the Christians try every dodge, trick and word-game in the book, all to no avail.

 

Ok, this thread runs to twelve pages and it isn't really something you can skim thru or just dip into. But, if you've got the time and are happy to read thru it all carefully, you'll see Christianity exposed for what it is - a wilful choice on the part of it's followers to believe in the impossible.

 

Please note that in just 43 posts, Doctor Truth slays not just the Christian Newbies and the Regulars, but also the Senior, long-time members of Christian forums.

 

Whoever Dr. Truth is, they get a standing ovation from me and if anyone awards points to this message, I only wish I could forward them on to the Doc.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

 

To the Mods:

 

If poss, please pin this.

 

Imho, Doc Truth's words represent a textbook example of how reasoned, rational argument easily destroys the impossible paradoxes of the Christian faith.

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I've debated the topic of Christianity from that very angle. I'm not sure if he's bothered to mention the fault in holding you and me accountable for the two fuck ups in Eden. Since when is that just? "Hey, I know your ancestors are the ones who made the mistake, but you're going to have to suffer the consequences as well."

 

But yes, there is no compassion in creating a poor soul that will experience hell for all eternity. Like my signature says, free will is a rope God gives to those he knows will are incapable of dealing with it and thus hang themselves with it for all eternity. There's no love in that.

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Thanks for posting the link. Just the first page gives a good sample of Dr. Truth's style. Love it! I've read about 3 pages and I can't wait til I can get back for more.

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I read that whole thing. Holy cow. He eviscerated them. And I don't think many of them realized just how bad they came out of this one. I loved how he refused to let them off the hook--in answer to that incoherent babble about that dizzy asshole who had a "God's word" for him midway through the thread, his response was just classic! "Lovely. So back to my question..."

 

Jay and End's weird behavior with regard to not realizing when they've been pummelled makes even more sense seeing that thread. They all acted that way--redefining questions, using shitty analogies, getting butthurt when called on their lack of logic... it just was like an Iron Chariots grand tour of idiocy.

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Someone needs to direct him here so he can join our happy little family. He sounds like he'd be a great person to have a discussion with. I like how courteous he is in asking and answering his questions.

 

I also like that a few people feel the need to post a whole freaking sermon that has nothing to do with the question.

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I got two pages in and just couldn't stand anymore.

 

I know BAA is not Dr. Truth cause the language used is different and BAA can be....verbose at time. ;)

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More than a few feel that a sermon is always good. As you go along, and they get more and more butthurt by the exposure of the many flaws in their logic, it becomes readily and vastly apparent that the sermons are more for themselves than for Dr Truth. The vapid JonahGirl is probably the most obviously irrational about her sermonizing, but there are definitely others who are mind-bogglingly, stupefyingly ignorant. They don't just redefine the question; they redefine god himself constantly.

 

The only explanation that seems to work, in the end, is "yeah, it totally doesn't make sense, and I'm okay with that," which is not sufficiently persuasive for him (and me, really) to leap into that religion. If he (and I) wants a religion that doesn't make sense and isn't supported by facts much less logic, he (and I) can find one that isn't nearly so morally repugnant.

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I got two pages in and just couldn't stand anymore.

 

I know BAA is not Dr. Truth cause the language used is different and BAA can be....verbose at time. wink.png

 

I'm reading it all but I understand the desire to stop... Their lack of logic and unwillingness to accept that it simple doesn't make sense, puts me in a fury. I was there one day though, but I'd like to believe I would have been more open-minded if I were posed with tough questions like this. I just never was until I did it myself. I'm still probably giving myself too much credit though. heh

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Interesting sideline there, LC... what would we have done, if we'd been the fundies hearing that question from Dr Truth? I don't want to be too cynical here or too judgmental toward the fundies on that thread, because really, wouldn't most of us have done something like what we see in those dozen pages? Am I so mighty in intellect that I can truly say I wouldn't have posted a sermon, or rephrased myself a strawman, or flat-out gotten hostile with him for saying he saw a naked emperor?

 

I'd like to think that my response would have been the route of faith--that I knew it was a total paradox and was okay with it--but even that would have felt like a cop-out.

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Very interesting, BAA. I too hope that Dr Truth will come on here.

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http://www.christian...s.com/t7686721/

 

11th September 2012, 01:43 AM

dr truthuser_offline.gif

Newbie

Male.gifMarried.gifAtheist.gif

 

Join Date: 11th September 2012

Posts: 43

Blessings: 10 Reps: 10 (power: 0)

reputation_green.gif

 

icon5.gifimpossible paradoxes of faith

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

 

1. god is omniscient

2. god is loving

3. god is merciful

4. hell exists

5. free will exists

 

Question:

 

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In Christianforums.com there's an area where non-Christians are permitted to 'Explore Christianity' by asking questions.

The atheist, Doctor Truth does so and then proceeds to skilfully demolish every answer the Christians throw at him.

 

The Christians...

 

* Manipulate the wording of his question to suit their own purposes..... (but the Dr. T is having none of that)

* Change the meaning of the Doctor's five assumptions to suit themselves..... (nor that)

* Add other factors to his question to suit their own ends..... (nor that either)

* Tell the Doc that the question is actually another one that has already been answered..... (and not that)

* Tell the Doc that the five assumptions present a distorted view of God.... (ditto)

* Tell the Doc that God's mind is unknowable by man's mind.... ( Oy vey!)

* Tell the Doc that God predestines some to people to Hell, but He's still a loving God!

* Complain that no answer is good enough for Atheists who are determined to deny of vilify God

* Make ad hominem attacks against the Doc and other atheists

* Refuse or fail to answer the Doc's straightforward questions

 

In short the Christians try every dodge, trick and word-game in the book, all to no avail.

 

Ok, this thread runs to twelve pages and it isn't really something you can skim thru or just dip into. But, if you've got the time and are happy to read thru it all carefully, you'll see Christianity exposed for what it is - a wilful choice on the part of it's followers to believe in the impossible.

 

Please note that in just 43 posts, Doctor Truth slays not just the Christian Newbies and the Regulars, but also the Senior, long-time members of Christian forums.

 

Whoever Dr. Truth is, they get a standing ovation from me and if anyone awards points to this message, I only wish I could forward them on to the Doc.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

 

To the Mods:

 

If poss, please pin this.

 

Imho, Doc Truth's words represent a textbook example of how reasoned, rational argument easily destroys the impossible paradoxes of the Christian faith.

 

"God chooses not to know everything in advance" - I love that one.

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But the Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and shall give you the gift of dodging, and slipperiness, and evasion, such that thou shalt wriggle like a serpent when the heathen shall inquire of ye.

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Interesting sideline there, LC... what would we have done, if we'd been the fundies hearing that question from Dr Truth? I don't want to be too cynical here or too judgmental toward the fundies on that thread, because really, wouldn't most of us have done something like what we see in those dozen pages? Am I so mighty in intellect that I can truly say I wouldn't have posted a sermon, or rephrased myself a strawman, or flat-out gotten hostile with him for saying he saw a naked emperor?

 

I'd like to think that my response would have been the route of faith--that I knew it was a total paradox and was okay with it--but even that would have felt like a cop-out.

 

In my xtian mindset, I probably would've posted more like JonahGirl...

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I'm about half way through. Brilliant! I totally get where every fundy is coming from.

 

Favorite Dr. Truth quote so far:

It is not a question of wanting to believe. Is that what faith is to you? Believing because you want to believe? What about the truth? Does that matter to you? It is all that matters to me.

 

I simply can't indulge myself in believing what I want to believe without abandoning my intellectual integrity. If god exists, he gave me this brain, and if he is a loving merciful god, he wants me to enjoy my faculties and use them rather than just choosing my beliefs based on what I want to believe. If god is omniscient, he knew before the earth was created that I would use my brain to ask this question and refuse to accept belief because I want to. If I end up in hell just because I refuse to choose belief in god on the basis of wanting it to be true, then how is god loving and merciful?

 

The truth might be available to us right here in this thread. What if this question I have asked reveals an impossible paradox of faith? What would that mean?

 

What is more important to you...: faith or truth?

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More good quotes from Dr. Truth:

I wouldn't allow my children to go to hell. Would you?

This question was not addressed either.

 

Interestingly, he can't be omnipotent and omniscient, because he hasn't the power to act unconstrained by his omniscience. If he does have the power to change the outcomes he knew would happen, then he can't be omniscient. I am learning more and more about faith. Another paradox - thank you.

 

Priceless! But it just goes to show that you can't argue with someone whose ideas are so different (and whose intellects are so fiercely guarded by "faith"). The goalposts keep shifting.

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I wonder how long it will take them to ban the atheist. The clock is ticking.

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I had a "why didn't I think of this" moment while reading this.

If hell is the seperation of god, is god really omnipresent?

 

ezhappydead.gif

Beautiful. Mind blowingly beautiful.

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I registered, declared myself an atheist, and asked Dr. Truth what he thought of Molinism. Someone replied that among non-Christian members of the site, only the original poster is supposed to post on a thread in that particular subforum. The chap directed me to their Philosophy forum if I want to comment on other people's posts.

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... but I'd like to believe I would have been more open-minded if I were posed with tough questions like this. I just never was until I did it myself. I'm still probably giving myself too much credit though. heh

 

 

Me too. The silver lining there is a seed was sown.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, he can't be omnipotent and omniscient, because he hasn't the power to act unconstrained by his omniscience. If he does have the power to change the outcomes he knew would happen, then he can't be omniscient. I am learning more and more about faith. Another paradox - thank you.

 

why does god not have to be accountable for omissive sins but we do. Double standard.

 

 

 

I had a "why didn't I think of this" moment while reading this.

If hell is the seperation of god, is god really omnipresent?

 

ezhappydead.gif

Beautiful. Mind blowingly beautiful.

 

Things that make you go hmmmmmm. He's everywhere but not there? But even in heaven you are supposed to be able to see people in hell. Remember the Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was a regular guy and he could talk to the rich man who was in hell maybe they are just in different rooms in a really small house. or a really big room with really loud people that can yell so you dont HAVE to be in both places you can keep tabs on one room from the other. I think jesus shot himself in the foot with that story.

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I got two pages in and just couldn't stand anymore.

 

I know BAA is not Dr. Truth cause the language used is different and BAA can be....verbose at time. wink.png

 

You said it, O Stripey One! smile.png

 

He/she ain't me.

I can only aspire to his/her brevity, wit and clarity. Plus, the Doc has w-a-a-a-y more self control than I can muster.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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I wonder how long it will take them to ban the atheist. The clock is ticking.

 

I dunno, MM.

 

The very last words Dr. T writes are these...

 

"I feel satisfied that we have gone as far as we can in the discussion and again would like to thank you all for contributing to helping me understand faith."

 

To me that reads like a goodbye. Maybe the Doc has quit Christianforums for good?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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Tying up some loose ends in this thread...

 

1.

"They don't just redefine the question; they redefine god himself constantly."

Picking up Akheia's point, WTF's going on here?

It's the atheist who consistently holds to the Biblical position, while the Christians consistently alter, re-write and downgrade God's status, qualities and abilities.

What gives?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2.

The Christian Ebia tries to get clever by appealing to mathematical concepts of the infinite and applying them to God.

 

Doctor Truth wrote...

Interestingly, he can't be omnipotent and omniscient, because he hasn't the power to act unconstrained by his omniscience. If he does have the power to change the outcomes he knew would happen, then he can't be omniscient. I am learning more and more about faith.

Another paradox - thank you.

 

Ebia replied...

Mathematics hat on: all naive concepts of the infinite are self-contradictory - including (at least naieve versions of) omnipotence and omniscience. They aren't biblical concepts either, they come from Greek philosophy. The same world as Zeno's paradoxes.

Is the set of all sets that are not members of themselves a member of itself?

 

Wrong!

Mathematical infinities exist only on paper or in the human mind. By definition, the Absolute infinity of God cannot be described on paper or by the human mind. Therefore, Ebia's appeal to set theory or Greek philosophy fails to address Doctor Truth's first assumption - God's Omniscience.

 

The Doc is assuming God's innate quality of Absolute (infinite) All-Knowledge.

But Ebia (once again) introduces and addresses a totally different thing. The self-contradicting infinities of naive human mathematical concepts and the limitations of Greek philosophy are not binding on God. Therefore they are not binding on the Doctor's initial assumption because his/her assumption had nothing to do with math or Greek thought.

 

So, once again, Ebia is not properly addressing the issue. He has introduced concepts into the issue that Dr.T never assumes or implies.

Wrong! PageofCupsNono.gif

 

3.

 

The Christian Gray Angel relies to Pico (a.k.a. Ficino)

 

I still get a bit disoriented myself. Especially with all of the fancy words they've got for things. Soteriology? Dispensationalism? Jeez.

Once you get used to it, it won't be quite as confusing, though.

 

JEEZ?

 

So, it's ok for Christians to take the name of their in vain, is it?

.

.

.

 

Please draw your own conclusions, folks.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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BAA, you saw through my cover name right away.

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I am on about page six of reading Dr. T. I admire the way in which he doesn't let the Christians re-frame the question to suit themselves or get him sidetracked with a lot of theological speculation. Its very good.

 

I see there were one or two honest, intelligent Christians who just admit that they don't know the answer but believe it anyway.

 

Very good so far.

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This is an absolute riot! Many of us sneaking over there and peeking at the fun going on. ROFL

The Doctor is a genius and I know, from experience, that his dispassionate, analytical way of debating is driving some of them completely bonkers! LOL

His arguments regarding the various omni. attributes contradicting each other remind me of the book I'm currently reading - The Case Against God by George H. Smith.

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