Western Thinking / Eastern Thinking

[florduh]

The subject is Western versus Eastern thinking. There happen to be a couple of active threads that have finally caused me to offer a general reply.

 

I'm weary of hearing how superior the deep, mystical, reality-grasping Eastern school of thought is to the decidedly inferior Western mode of thinking. Somehow it gets assumed that Western ways of thinking and doing are practically evil when compared to the wisdom available from long dead sages of the Mysterious East.

 

Americans in particular are attracted by the novel and exotic, and we tend to denigrate our own achievements. It is the fashion to paint the West, America particularly, as the soulless, materialistic, duality embracing destroyers of everything good and wholesome. True spirituality comes from ancient Eastern philosophies, only mechanized death comes from the West. Japanese, Chinese or perhaps Indian religions come so much closer to cosmic Truth than do the Western religions. Even their native foods have become sought after American delicacies since they are obviously more healthful and better tasting. We've even been duped into thinking that eating raw fucking fish is so chic!!!

 

After thousands of years on their enlightened path, the East is still largely wallowing in poverty and disease.

 

After only a few hundred years, the West has conquered countless diseases, fed more people, increased lifespans and improved living standards. The West has taken us to the moon, Mars and outer space. The West has promoted the general welfare of the majority, but we are still the villains.

 

I know, I'll never be a guest on Oprah or Dr. Oz.

 

I want to see some overdue credit for what mere Westerners have accomplished when compared to the frankly backward societies still wallowing in disease, poverty, and that ever superior mystical spirituality.

[Vigile]

Couple of anecdotes, just for fun.

 

I really like the fact that in Thailand they believe in karma as it can make for a much more peaceful existence in many cases. You are rarely going to run into road rage, for example, simply due to this belief.

 

On the other hand, I recall my hotel manager Steve and another British guy came back from Steve's mother-in-law's funeral absolutely livid. It seems they burn the bodies on a pyre and his wife's relatives were so insensitive they sent his wife to the store to buy lighter fluid.

[inorbit]

The downside to karma is not helping the poor or suffering, because "they must have deserved it" and you wouldn't want to subvert such "justice." It's as bad as the Christians who will "pray for you."

[mymistake]

Yes the dao allows the West to have better lives . . . but it's only because the dao is testing us.

 

Another danger of Easter religion is that when it melts into a tossed salad of undefined mystical jargon how do you tell the difference between a guru who knows what he is talking about, one who just has a good placebo effect and one who is a total con artist?

[Thurisaz]

There's ups and downs to everything. In some ways "Eastern thinking" seems superior to "Western thinking" to me, but then, I might see things very differently if I had grown up "over there". Familiarity breeds contempt, they say

[♦ ficino ♦]

I often think that Western spirituality, which has a long tradition, tends to get overlooked, esp. by Americans. A difference that has seemed valid to me is that "eastern" approaches tend to aim at freeing oneself of illusion, attaining enlightenment, becoming a sage. The best of at least the Catholic tradition, as I was exposed to it, claims at any rate to aim at becoming like Christ, suffused with love, becoming a saint. Love is by nature other-regarding. There is always an I-Thou/thou. The Catholic tradition has always claimed that mystical experiences--perhaps put another way, attaining an emptying of the ego--is not the goal, but being wholly led by love is the goal.

 

It may seem that these are differences of language and that at bottom the insights and experiences are the same. I am not convinced that is so, but I'm not an expert in the literal sense of one who has experienced these goals.

[VacuumFlux]

I will admit that much of my attraction to Eastern ideas is the thrill of the exotic. Part of it is also the thrill of the forbidden; I was raised to believe that much of Eastern religion was demonic and that meditation was "emptying yourself" so that the demons could come in and control you. Yeah....

 

A small part of my fascination with Eastern things is the total lack of Eastern history that I got in school, even in the (supposed) World History class. I'm not sure if public schools in the US do a better job of this or not; this was a private christian school. By "World", they meant Ancient Egypt, the Middle East as it relates to Israel, and Europe. I think we had maybe three paragraphs about ancient Chinese dynasties. I didn't even realize that the Byzantine Empire had been much of a thing until I was in college.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Couple of anecdotes, just for fun.

 

I really like the fact that in Thailand they believe in karma as it can make for a much more peaceful existence in many cases. You are rarely going to run into road rage, for example, simply due to this belief.

 

On the other hand, I recall my hotel manager Steve and another British guy came back from Steve's mother-in-law's funeral absolutely livid. It seems they burn the bodies on a pyre and his wife's relatives were so insensitive they sent his wife to the store to buy lighter fluid.

You've said in the past to me, that anecedotal evidence doesn't count. Someone had to point that out.

 

Though we all use anecedotes when anecedotes are the evidence we have. Though I will say that asian people (at least those from over there) did seem alot more polite, there is something also to be said of what is culturally acceptable ways of treating others. Over here, we tend to ignore people with attitudes, whereas its not really acceptable to do some of the things we do over here.

 

As for the above, there is also alot to be said about the effects of socialism and feudalism on those societies which have made and kept them backward. Also, there is alot to be said about the way the west's capitalist system affects the poor. Honestly, there is alot to be said about both sides though.

[par4dcourse]

It's science vs. faith. Testable, reproduceable phenom vs. subjective individual experience.

 

Another danger of Easter religion is that when it melts into a tossed salad of undefined mystical jargon how do you tell the difference between a guru who knows what he is talking about, one who just has a good placebo effect and one who is a total con artist?

 

Yeah, Deepak Chopra has been talking/writing for decades and has yet to actually say anything.

[Yrth]

The subject is Western versus Eastern thinking. There happen to be a couple of active threads that have finally caused me to offer a general reply.

 

I'm weary of hearing how superior the deep, mystical, reality-grasping Eastern school of thought is to the decidedly inferior Western mode of thinking. Somehow it gets assumed that Western ways of thinking and doing are practically evil when compared to the wisdom available from long dead sages of the Mysterious East.

Can you be more specific? This is so general that it's hard to know exactly what's wearing at you.

 

I suppose I am having trouble seeing how the relative value of Eastern spiritual disciplines is in any way related to Western achievements you mentioned. The fundamental problem here is that you're using one measuring stick on two totally different categories. Looking at the the East vs. West problem within the proper category, you will see that for all of its progress in other areas, the West has largely ignored inner well-being until recently. Western thinkers within the positive psychology movement have proved that certain meditative disciplines are very valuable indeed.

 

In fact, I think the West's internal poverty is highlighted by the very progresses you listed. After only a few hundred years, we have been to the moon and have sent our toys to Mars, and yet most of us cling to Christianity. Christianity is a blistering stupidity, yet most people believe it to one degree or another. Why is that? What's going on? Blaming Christianity gives it too much credit. I think Christianity and other religions fulfill some fundamental need that is wholly unrelated to Western progress. By now I think the positive psychologists have made it clear that at least part of a good solution can be found in certain Eastern practices that have generally been absent from Western traditions.

[Sybaris]

I lived in Japan for 11 years and traveled extensively throughout Asia. To me the OP is too general and assumes success is measured by western standards???

 

Also, who is making the claim that Eastern thinking, spirituality, and food is superior, "mystical" or coveted?

[Ro-bear]

This is silly. It's like debating who has better food.

[Rev R]

I'm weary of hearing how superior the deep, mystical, reality-grasping Eastern school of thought is to the decidedly inferior Western mode of thinking. Somehow it gets assumed that Western ways of thinking and doing are practically evil when compared to the wisdom available from long dead sages of the Mysterious East.

 

For me the attraction to so-called "Eastern" thought was because it meshed very well with conclusions I was drawing on my own. What people seem to fail to realize is that what we consider to be "Eastern" is filtered through the "Western" philosophical ideas that shaped our society.

 

Now, it is quite true that no Oriental philosophy has conjured up a tonic to cure the ills of society and in some cases it only reinforces an unrealistic view of reality. On the other hand there are people for whom these philosophies work quite well. All in all, your mileage may vary.

[Astreja]

Eastern thinking is useful for when Western thinking isn't working.

 

Western thinking is useful for when Eastern thinking isn't working.

 

I think it's analogous to right-brain/left-brain false dichotomies: Even if you think you're relying primarily or exclusively on one hemisphere, the contralateral side continues to receive the same input data, analyzes it in the background, and will make a point of tripping you up if you ignore what it's trying to tell you.

[Deva]

The people in India (I think that's where it started) were a lot more interested in exploring the "inner" world of the self. There is still some of this in some of the western religions - Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. However, it is not so undercover in the east. By the way, Hindu and Buddhist philosophy is not just one school, but many.

 

We could certainly talk about how Protestantism influenced the development of Western so-called civilization with its "work ethic" which has gotten completely crazy IMO. In fact, in the west many people are very unhappy who are far better off with their living standard.

 

I think the west could learn more from the eastern philosophy and be the better for it.

[blackpudd1n]

I will admit that much of my attraction to Eastern ideas is the thrill of the exotic. Part of it is also the thrill of the forbidden; I was raised to believe that much of Eastern religion was demonic and that meditation was "emptying yourself" so that the demons could come in and control you. Yeah....

 

A small part of my fascination with Eastern things is the total lack of Eastern history that I got in school, even in the (supposed) World History class. I'm not sure if public schools in the US do a better job of this or not; this was a private christian school. By "World", they meant Ancient Egypt, the Middle East as it relates to Israel, and Europe. I think we had maybe three paragraphs about ancient Chinese dynasties. I didn't even realize that the Byzantine Empire had been much of a thing until I was in college.

 

Perhaps that is reason I am not drawn to it in any way, despite my former fundamentalism. I spent two years doing an elective subject at school called Asian Studies. We studied the history, culture, geography, and religious practices of all the Asian nations, from as far west as Pakistan, down through Indonesia, Malaysia and the Phillipines, and as far north as Mongolia. We also discussed the current events occuring in that area at the time we were studying it. Though we did venture out to Afghanistan at one point, when the Taliban blew up those giantic Buddhist stone carvings. At the end of each school term, we'd go and have lunch at a different Asian-themed restaurant in town. I do still enjoy a nice, cold mango lasshi.

 

During those two years, I also spent six weeks in China on a cultural exchange.

 

The Asian nations are our neighbours, and we have a very multicultural society over here. I guess for many Aussies, Asia and everything associated with it is not so exotic.

[florduh]

Can you be more specific? This is so general that it's hard to know exactly what's wearing at you.

 

Many Americans these days are eager to damn the ways of the West while praising anything that originates in the East. It's like the myth of the noble savage. My point is not that other philosophies and cultures have nothing to offer, but rather that so many Americans adopt an inferior attitude and tend to ignore the accomplishments the West has achieved. I mean, if India has addressed the "inner" person for thousands of years and all they have to show is a cruel caste system and poverty and disease, how is that culture/religion in a position to eclipse the Western mindset? Are we really worse off in the West because we use science to create better lives? No doubt, we have our problems, but how about a little perspective? Of course, not everyone worships anything that is decidedly not American, but so many do. I just don't get it.

 

I'm just old and cranky.

[Guest wester]

I lived and worked in Seoul, Shanghai and Beijing. And I can say beyond question that these places are definitely

 

....soulless, materialistic, singularity embracing destroyers of everything good and wholesome.....

 

 

Cheers

[midniterider]

The people in India (I think that's where it started) were a lot more interested in exploring the "inner" world of the self. There is still some of this in some of the western religions - Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. However, it is not so undercover in the east. By the way, Hindu and Buddhist philosophy is not just one school, but many.

 

We could certainly talk about how Protestantism influenced the development of Western so-called civilization with its "work ethic" which has gotten completely crazy IMO. In fact, in the west many people are very unhappy who are far better off with their living standard.

 

I think the west could learn more from the eastern philosophy and be the better for it.

 

Western thinking: Earn more money, buy more shit. Work till you die. We have so many fantastic inventions that we don't have to stand up...so we are fat. Is having lots of stuff and being fat better than say, being a self-realized eastern sage with no possessions? I dunno. :-) Time to get off this high tech net connection and go watch my giant friggin tv. :-)

[JadedAtheist]

Western vs Eastern thinking/philosophy/spirituality/et cetera?

 

I also get frustrated with people,florduh who say romanticise systems of thought and practice merely because they are different. Though try would never admit it. In so many ways society is teaching people to be ashamed of who they are. Their sex, their color and their way of life are things they're ashamed of instead of accepting of (I don't think pride is really something that makes sense when you don't have control over it but neither should one feel negative over it. Merely neutral).

 

Another problem is thinking you can lump people into several big groups. Our few similarities are out shadowed by our differences. A city person from most countries would probably have more in common with a city person elsewhere than with one of their own countrymen from a country town, and vice versa. Culture and thought varies so much from place to place and country to country that it seems silly to me at least that one can look to a far away country and think they do better. We all have ups and downs.

 

Technological advancement was also made in various societies with various ideologies so in that way we can't say one is better than the other either, especially nowadays where advancements are coming from everywhere, not just say the US. Everyone has their time to shine.

 

Anyways, people can look towards whomever they like but to me at least it's all the same shit packaged slightly differently.

[Vigile]

You've said in the past to me, that anecedotal evidence doesn't count. Someone had to point that out.

 

And I stand by that statement. Does that mean humans can't use anecdotes in conversations with one another and that anecdotes are taboo? They just aren't very useful for drawing conclusions.

[WMDKitty]

Uhhh... speaking as someone who loves and appreciates good eats, foreign cuisine (especially Indian and Asian) is fucking delicious. Especially the raw fish. (I refuse to eat canned tuna any more.)

 

I can't speak to the religions and philosophies, as Eastern mysticism hasn't been my area of study, but I do wish more Westerners would learn to sit down, shut up, and just be in the moment. It's not good for the mind or the body to constantly be in motion, metaphorical or otherwise. We need down-time, and too many people are just go-go-go with zero regard to the price that is paid. I think that, at least, is one thing the Eastern faiths and philosophies got right.

[florduh]

We need down-time, and too many people are just go-go-go with zero regard to the price that is paid. I think that, at least, is one thing the Eastern faiths and philosophies got right.

 

 

I mostly agree - Balance, Grasshopper! What I'm getting at is that those thousands of years of "down time" resulted in some rather sickly and poverty stricken societies. Wherever the evil Western system has made inroads, the health of the population and their standard of living improved. I don't think that obviously good influence should be apologized for, that's all.

[silentknight]

While eastern mysticisms can be less controlling to the individual than western they're still BS.

 

If one wants to believe BS, go ahead.

 

Balance is achieved in my life by allowing myself to relax. I don't need any kind of specific instruction on how to do so.

[Vigile]

We need down-time, and too many people are just go-go-go with zero regard to the price that is paid. I think that, at least, is one thing the Eastern faiths and philosophies got right.

 

 

I mostly agree - Balance, Grasshopper! What I'm getting at is that those thousands of years of "down time" resulted in some rather sickly and poverty stricken societies. Wherever the evil Western system has made inroads, the health of the population and their standard of living improved. I don't think that obviously good influence should be apologized for, that's all.

 

The difference between haves and have nots is too complex I think to attribute simply to the cultural ideals of your average man on the street. I just started watching the series Guns, Germs and Steel. It seems to be on to something.

 

I can tell you if I had to be homeless, I'd far, far, far rather be homeless in India than anywhere in the US. Life there isn't as bad as you imagine it.