mymistake Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 No, it's not rational. Let's test it. Give me 3 arguments that you find the most convincing. 3 arguments that you believe prove Christianity to be true. Proof? Tricky that one. I guess its a faith, so based on beliefs and emotions rather than proof as such. Therefore it is not rational. Hey, you answered you own question. That didn't take long. Personally I don't care what religion you have as long as you don't hurt others. So if you respect us we will respect you. Then we can all get along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Those in power... the elite, the church, the wealthy, have supported and promoted these concepts to more easily maintain their positions. This is apparent if you study the history of the Catholic Church and Europe from The Council of Nicea to the Age of Reason (and today as well), I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. People in power have used religion to stay in power, as a method of control. But I was never a big fan of the big churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Its not belief in itself which is desirable, but the fruits of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Man, I have met as many or more people with those 'fruits' who were unbelievers as believers. And I've met some real assholes who are believers. In fact, without believers in the US it's highly unlikely there would have been enough political support to invade Iraq. Belief in god/bible is not correlated with good values. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted September 27, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 27, 2012 we humans are so desperate for 'comfort' on this earth that we will even believe in an imaginary god without proof. The proof of a creator is in the creation. Romans 1:20 Have you forgotten that one Yes darlin'...that really makes me a believer again.....Can you tell me how we can 'clearly' see his 'invisable' qualities? What are you seeing that I'm not Adam....everything god made?? Does that include the talking snake in Genesis? It ALWAYS ends right there for me...no need to go any further into the 'holy book'. Sorry hon........ 'Romans 1:20 ......' For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Maybe it's my skeptical mind at work (again) but why do I think you're just putting everyone on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 we humans are so desperate for 'comfort' on this earth that we will even believe in an imaginary god without proof. The proof of a creator is in the creation. Romans 1:20 Have you forgotten that one Then what's your take on the book of Genesis, Adam? Was your namesake really created out of mud? And his wife, out of his rib? Oh and the universe... 6-10,000 years old or 13.72 billion years old? Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 we humans are so desperate for 'comfort' on this earth that we will even believe in an imaginary god without proof. The proof of a creator is in the creation. Romans 1:20 Have you forgotten that one Yeah, right - it's true because Paul said it right? But isn't that the SAME Paul who actually created the cult out of thin air? (Re-read Galations and ponder its significance before responding).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hey Adam! (Waves! ) Been checking out my Profile page, huh? Raoul's, Margee's, Vigile's, Ficino's and MyMistake's too? Clever! "Know your enemy and know yourself and you will win a thousand battles." Sun Tzu. I admire guile, not gall. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Two people so far have pointed out that you've answered your own question about the rationality of Christianity, care to acknowledge them or will you continue ignoring them? What you chose to do will reveal your fruits that you just spoke of, remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Two people so far have pointed out that you've answered your own question about the rationality of Christianity, care to acknowledge them or will you continue ignoring them? What you chose to do will reveal your fruits that you just spoke of, remember that. Touche'... Jaded! Touche'! BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Jesus' teachings are not all about kindness though... he also preached division. "I come not to bring peace...etc.." The entire bible teaches violence, elitism and bigotry... it's ALL OVER IT. The "not to bring peace but a sword" saying is not advocating physical violence, but a metaphor for idelogical conflict cause in the following verse he discusses division within a family. "Violence, elitism, bigotry." Yes, there is a fair amount of this in the Bible, esp. the OT, but then I guess this reflects the reality of life at the time the books of the OT were written. No, the entire basis for a belief in jesus is believing that the bible is the word of god... otherwise you have no basis to believe in jesus... because there is no other way to even have heard of him. The reality of the times? That's NOT what the bible says.. it tells us about the actions of a god... with a certain people... and those actions are consistently immoral and reprehensible... and this jesus of yours supports this... —he derives his entire authority from the OT. There can be no christianity without the OT, because THAT IS THE GOD JESUS FOLLOWED. He KNEW what was in the OT... and he promoted THAT god shamelessly. He did not reject it.. or talk against the atrocities committed by his god or even the jewish people. All he did (well, not him, because he is a myth—the religious cult that came out of the hebrew religion... because they were a conquered people and their religion failed to deliver them from the Romans) was try to make it more palatable to the hellenistic world and retain and support their need to see themselves as god's special people in a quickly changing world that was imposing reality on them. Do you not see the elitism in the NT? Is not christianity itself elitist? Where do you think bigotry comes from? You can't whitewash christianity... it's very base is hatred, violence, misogyny, genocide, bigotry, and elitism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 "Know your enemy and know yourself and you will win a thousand battles." Sun Tzu. Not to go off topic but I'm compelled to compliment you on that quote. Tzu is my favorite reading as well and I've tried to employ some of his teachings when I was involved in any kind of debating. I probably failed more than won but oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 27, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted September 27, 2012 Proof? Tricky that one. I guess its a faith, so based on beliefs and emotions rather than proof as such. So the answer is there is no real reason to believe the nonsense aside from just wanting to. That's really stupid. So why are you back here if you have (re)discovered the Truth of Jesus? Do you think you will convert anyone or are you simply a masochist and embracing Christianity is not enough torture for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Why come back here and make this announcement, and especially to do so in the Lion's Den? Is it to test your faith? Laudable. Is it to try to convert us back into Christianity? Useless. Good point. Probably ther first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Adam, believe in yourself only. Base your beliefs on your experience, not on anyone else's. If you haven't personally witnessed it, doubt it. There are a lot of liars out there, especially in organized religion. Thanks, thats good advice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 The inference, of course, is that it isn't. But now you start hawking the xtian strawman about 'faith' playing a key role. But faith does play a key role. Hebrews 11:1-3 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 we humans are so desperate for 'comfort' on this earth that we will even believe in an imaginary god without proof. The proof of a creator is in the creation. Romans 1:20 Have you forgotten that one I haven't forgotten the passage. It just doesn't match reality. If it were true then God planed for me to die at 14. Does that mean the doctors sined against God when they saved me from God's flawed design? The same thing happened to my son when he was 8. Why would God kill children? I was lucky that I live in a modern country with man-made medical techonlogy. Many people die without that care. Around the world many of those dead are children. A flawed creation means an incompetent or evil creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 I've just finished reading somewhere that many of Jesus' teachings weren't so unique because other religions/philosophical teachings of his day said the same or very similar things regarding loving your enemy, not returning hate, taking care of the poor, etc. I've read that too. But dont think those propositions stand up to scrutiny. When you actually look in detail at what say Greek mystery religions teach they are very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hey, Adam, your responses of one-liners cum Bible verses and the occasional emoticon and the snarky tone sounds JUST LIKE JayL. Like JayL and Thumby, you are playing around with superficial bullshit replies. You're sounding already like a troll. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hi folks, I was on this forum for a couple of months in summer when I had backsliden from the Christian faith. I have since gone back to Christianity again. Why the hell would I do such a silly thing you ask I have entered the Lion's Den. I know I am in big trouble now! Kinda missed this place, but going to be strange now I am on the other side. I have a vague memory of you. Recognize your tag name. So what is it that you missed about this place? It can't be warm and cuddly feeling after sitting around the camp fire and eating smores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Your rational mind has had a taste and you'll eventually come back to your senses So religion is inherently irrational? Is it not possible to have a rational Christianity? Yes. You can. It's called atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 "Know your enemy and know yourself and you will win a thousand battles." Sun Tzu. Not to go off topic but I'm compelled to compliment you on that quote. Tzu is my favorite reading as well and I've tried to employ some of his teachings when I was involved in any kind of debating. I probably failed more than won but oh well... Hey, don't do yourself down, man! I used to belong to a free-thinkers forum that was run by Reggie (The Infidel Guy) Finlay. That's where I cut my teeth (on Xian flesh), before I came here and joined the resident pride of Lions. Yeah, Tzu's the best. Thanks for the complimentary words, btw. So far in this thread, I'd award the medal to the Jaded one. Adam5's fruit (or lack , thereof) will tell all. Have a better one, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 That term suggests to me that you view your period of rejection of Christian teachings as a period when your judgment was led astray by sin or sinful desires - I'm just concluding that from my experience with the term "backsliding." Does this mean that you can demonstrate to yourself that your insights then entailed or were based on false conclusions from evidence? The Christian life is not easy. We all have doubts. Why I fell away, and why I have come back, I dont know. I am trying to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Where does it say, in the bible, that it was in fact a metaphor? Hi Raoul, well I guess thats just personal interpretation. Taking a verse, and reading it in the immediate context, and in the light of the other teaching in the gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 The inference, of course, is that it isn't. But now you start hawking the xtian strawman about 'faith' playing a key role. But faith does play a key role. Hebrews 11:1-3 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible" I learned over the years that emotions and faith is very fickle. For years, I was convinced about my faith, but over time, the feeling diminished, and at one point, there wasn't anything left. And without anything else to base my belief on, no rational explanation, no feeling, the card house came down. You might find yourself there one day. But there actually is a "faith" beyond non-faith, if you'd listen to a few "spiritual" non-believers on this forum. You can have "religion" without being a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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