Jim And Penny Caldwell's Archaeological Findings:

[BlackCat]

BlackCat's position re: Intelligent Design.

 

1. The Universe.

You accept the orthodox scientific explanation for the evolution of the universe - Big Bang Theory (BBT).

You accept that BBT is a good, working theory of the early phases of the universe's evolution.

You accept that it is supported by several, independent lines of evidence and confirmed predictions.

You accept that BBT is incomplete, since it doesn't describe the mechanism of the universe's origin - only what happened afterwards.

You accept the initial 'breakage' of the universe, where the simple SuperForce shattered into the complex reality we experience today.

You accept that this breakage means that reality is 'winding down' from a highly energetic, simple state, into a less energetic and complex one.

You accept that matter and energy are equivalent (as per Einstein) and cannot be created or destroyed - only changed from one form into another.

You accept that some (but not all) parts of the universe appears to display a Natural Tendency (NT) towards complexity.

You accept that all but one of the theorized possibles endings of the universe will destroy complexity completely.

You therefore accept that in the above scenarios, the NT towards complexity is not an eternal thing, but a temporary one. 

 

2. Christian Theology.

You have come to doubt Biblical Christianity, in any of it's literal, Creationist interpretations.

You have come to doubt Biblical Christianity, re: the origin and purpose of the universe.

You have come to doubt Biblical Christianity, re: the origin, purpose and destiny of the human race.

You have come to doubt Biblical Christianity, re: any of it's claims about an afterlife.

You have come to doubt Biblical Christianity, re: any of it's historical and archaeological claims.

 

 

That should be enough for now, BC.

 

Please take your time with this and get back to me whenever you like.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You have summed up my position very well indeed BAA.    When you put it that way, it doesn't leave much hope at all of our existence having an 'eternal' purpose.    

[ExCBooster]

 

 

You have summed up my position very well indeed BAA.    When you put it that way, it doesn't leave much hope at all of our existence having an 'eternal' purpose.    

Maybe, just maybe, that's not necessarily a bad thing, BC. You doubt a God or creator in the Christian sense, yet your struggles to deal with the idea of a creator, in the abstract seem to still be framed in the Christian sense of an omnipotent, omnipresent, just, and benevolent being. Hence the idea of a creator being tied to "hope." Forget the other three, and, as I alluded to in previous posts, consider that last one: benevolent. The presumptive creator of such things that are very, very real, such as all those horrible parasites, is not, in any sense comprehensible to humanity, benevolent. If the God/Creator of the anglerfish or guinea worm exists as a Christian-type god, complete with life eternal, would you want to live forever in its heaven? In light of nature's evidence, this looks more likely than any God with a human-style conscience. There are loads of Gods out there in human belief, and not all are in humanity's image (see that post on Shinto, just one among a myriad of animist, polytheist, belief systems). It's an accident of birth and culture that you believed in the Christian-flavor one.

 

We are all free. Free to believe or disbelieve what you want. That's what it means, to have no "higher purpose." You don't have to be defined by the judgements of a belief system that no longer fits you. You determine the higher purpose, and that's a wide-open future. As for Hope, and life eternal, that is, by definition, different than knowledge. Science is a tool for gathering knowledge of our world, not a system of belief - that's why ID is so intellectually dishonest, IMO. As for the next, or other worlds, that, too, is a wide-open field. Ambiguity is a sign of a healthy mind. See the book: What We Believe But Cannot Prove.

 

(About the Weasel God linked above: the

, member of the incredibly

family

, is also

. And, yes, there are supernatural weasels all over Japanese folklore. Have a kama-itachi for the road, courtesy of the infinitely entertaining Obakemono Project.)

[Akheia]

I love you guys so much. I learn so much from these threads. Thank you, ExCB, BAA, BC, Ficino, et al.

 

BC, once you get away from the idea of there being some all-good god out there that gives people a purpose, you'll start to understand how dizzyingly awesome it is that you can make your own fate. Nobody's going to just hand you your purpose, unless you join the military! You make your own. You decide. Go left or go right. Go big or go home ("I can go home?" -- "That stage IS your home!"). No god means no buttonholing. No shoe-horning. No forcing of square pegs into the round holes of your heart. No typecasting. No uncertainty about why this "purpose" you've decided you have isn't working out. No wondering why this all-good god doesn't seem like he's that good but it's all you've got so you cling to the idea anyway. Choose your own adventure in real life in 3-D. And you're jostling alongside billions of fellow humans all choosing *their* own adventures whether they realize it or not. It's amazing to me, wrenching in its scope and majesty and sheer humanity.

 

Get up on the dais, give the speech, rouse the army, get marching, it's YOURS now, all of it.

[bornagainathiest]

You have summed up my position very well indeed BAA.    When you put it that way, it doesn't leave much hope at all of our existence having an 'eternal' purpose.    

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, that wasn't my real intention... as you know, BC.  

 

For now, I've put aside my feelings and views on the issue of an eternal purpose for the universe and tried to confine myself solely to summarizing what I think your views are.  So far, this is pretty a much a re-cap of ground we've already covered, considered and agreed upon - the foundational stuff, if you will.

 

I must do some more thinking this weekend, to see if there's other 'basics' that need covering and I'll get back to you early in the week with my thoughts, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

I love you guys so much. I learn so much from these threads. Thank you, ExCB, BAA, BC, Ficino, et al.

 

Please consider yourself 'electronically' hugged, across the miles, Akheia.     

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hugs, and thanks for the stimulating posts, everyone!

[BlackCat]

Love and hugs from me too......Thanks guys for all your replies.  They are much appreciated, even if I don't  always agree with all the points made. 

 

BAA- I look forward to your further thoughts regarding your last post to me.  

[ExCBooster]

Yay! I love it when people can discuss things in a reasonable, yet kind way!   *hugs*

[bornagainathiest]

Hello once more, BC! 

 

Seeing as we've covered the basics and seeing as we agree (that I seem to understand where you're at), I think we're now at a crossroads.  Assuming that you're still happy to carry, here's how I see our options.

 

1.

You could describe where you think I'm at.  Re: the Universe and Christian theology.

 

2.

Or you could choose your own way of doing this.  There's no rule that says you have to copy me, slavishly.  Our goal is to understand each other better, right?  Providing we get there, how we get there needn't be a big issue.

 

3.

You could suggest other aspects of your beliefs that you'd like me to try and summarize.

 

4.

I could try to summarize what I think your beliefs are re: the ID/IC issue.

 

Please let me know how you want to proceed or, if you see other options, what they might be.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Yay! I love it when people can discuss things in a reasonable, yet kind way!   *hugs*

 Me too!   

[BlackCat]

Hello once more, BC! 

 

Seeing as we've covered the basics and seeing as we agree (that I seem to understand where you're at), I think we're now at a crossroads.  Assuming that you're still happy to carry, here's how I see our options.

 

1.

You could describe where you think I'm at.  Re: the Universe and Christian theology.

 

2.

Or you could choose your own way of doing this.  There's no rule that says you have to copy me, slavishly.  Our goal is to understand each other better, right?  Providing we get there, how we get there needn't be a big issue.

 

3.

You could suggest other aspects of your beliefs that you'd like me to try and summarize.

 

4.

I could try to summarize what I think your beliefs are re: the ID/IC issue.

 

Please let me know how you want to proceed or, if you see other options, what they might be.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Hi BAA.  I'll have a shot at trying to present your position, or how I have understood you, during our discussions. 

 

The Universe: I'm assuming that you would agree with the points you listed for my position. 

 

Christian Theology: You no longer believe that any theistic (or deistic) type of god is  plausible or possible and that the points listed in the 'universe' section support there being no 'personal' god or intelligent mind.  This is my position, so I've moved from 'doubting' to 'not believing', although I feel a reluctance in my 'spirit' (for want of a better word) to accept this or to really believe it- if that makes sense.  As we don't know everything there is still a small possibility that there is some kind of 'god' or force that is responsible for all this, but maybe I see this as a small possibility because I want it to be so??  'Never say never' springs to mind.  I see no problem with hoping there's more than this temporary, pain fiilled existence, but I no longer base that hope on a system of religion or a god who  never was that real to me. 

 

As for the ID/IC issue, I think it's interesting but maybe jumping the gun to claim that evolution can't account for complex molecular systems.  If we take the example of the 'co-option theory' that Scott Minnich mentioned back in the link on page 5, and which I kept referring back to, as I thought it was a strong argument for ID/IC, it turns out that his claim that only 10 of the 40 proteins could be found in other systems, and the other 30 were unique, may not be true now.  I found an artilce that mentions that they've found some of these other proteins, so it seems Minnich et al, were being too hasty.  I've got to dash in a mintue, but I'll find that article and put a link in later.     It's probably best to wait and see what science discovers about these molecular systems. 

 

Please outline your position if I've misunderstood you, or if you need to clarify anything.

 

Bye for now

 

BlackCat.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

Hello once more, BC! 

 

Seeing as we've covered the basics and seeing as we agree (that I seem to understand where you're at), I think we're now at a crossroads.  Assuming that you're still happy to carry, here's how I see our options.

 

1.

You could describe where you think I'm at.  Re: the Universe and Christian theology.

 

2.

Or you could choose your own way of doing this.  There's no rule that says you have to copy me, slavishly.  Our goal is to understand each other better, right?  Providing we get there, how we get there needn't be a big issue.

 

3.

You could suggest other aspects of your beliefs that you'd like me to try and summarize.

 

4.

I could try to summarize what I think your beliefs are re: the ID/IC issue.

 

Please let me know how you want to proceed or, if you see other options, what they might be.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Hi BAA.  I'll have a shot at trying to present your position, or how I have understood you, during our discussions. 

 

The Universe: I'm assuming that you would agree with the points you listed for my position. 

 

Christian Theology: You no longer believe that any theistic (or deistic) type of god is  plausible or possible and that the points listed in the 'universe' section support there being no 'personal' god or intelligent mind.  This is my position, so I've moved from 'doubting' to 'not believing', although I feel a reluctance in my 'spirit' (for want of a better word) to accept this or to really believe it- if that makes sense.  As we don't know everything there is still a small possibility that there is some kind of 'god' or force that is responsible for all this, but maybe I see this as a small possibility because I want it to be so??  'Never say never' springs to mind.  I see no problem with hoping there's more than this temporary, pain fiilled existence, but I no longer base that hope on a system of religion or a god who  never was that real to me. 

 

As for the ID/IC issue, I think it's interesting but maybe jumping the gun to claim that evolution can't account for complex molecular systems.  If we take the example of the 'co-option theory' that Scott Minnich mentioned back in the link on page 5, and which I kept referring back to, as I thought it was a strong argument for ID/IC, it turns out that his claim that only 10 of the 40 proteins could be found in other systems, and the other 30 were unique, may not be true now.  I found an artilce that mentions that they've found some of these other proteins, so it seems Minnich et al, were being too hasty.  I've got to dash in a mintue, but I'll find that article and put a link in later.     It's probably best to wait and see what science discovers about these molecular systems. 

 

Please outline your position if I've misunderstood you, or if you need to clarify anything.

 

Bye for now

 

BlackCat.

Hey Black Cat, what I marked in red in your post above is a good catch of how "God (or designer) of the gaps" arguments run into trouble.

[BlackCat]

Ficino, yes, I'm beginning to see how these 'gaps' in our present knowledge can be misunderstood or misapplied.  Here's the article I mentioned above:

 

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/flagellum_evolu.html   

[bornagainathiest]

Hi BAA.  I'll have a shot at trying to present your position, or how I have understood you, during our discussions. 

 

The Universe: I'm assuming that you would agree with the points you listed for my position. 

 

Christian Theology:

You no longer believe that any theistic (or deistic) type of god is  plausible or possible and that the points listed in the 'universe' section support there being no 'personal' god or intelligent mind. This is my position, so I've moved from 'doubting' to 'not believing', although I feel a reluctance in my 'spirit' (for want of a better word) to accept this or to really believe it- if that makes sense.  As we don't know everything there is still a small possibility that there is some kind of 'god' or force that is responsible for all this, but maybe I see this as a small possibility because I want it to be so??  'Never say never' springs to mind.  I see no problem with hoping there's more than this temporary, pain fiilled existence, but I no longer base that hope on a system of religion or a god who  never was that real to me. 

BC, I can appreciate that life now looks bleaker and less comforting to you than it used to.

 

The flip side of this, however is that rather than being led astray by a noble-sounding lie, your eyes are being opened to the clear light of reality and truth.  This in of itself is well worth rejoicing over and taking comfort in.  To see things clearly and to understand the world properly is a fine and wonderful thing.  Most of the humans who've ever lived and most living now are still enthralled to one kind of illusion or another.and will never reach where you now are.  Most people don't even suspect that it's possible to know certain things and many have turned away from the truth, content with a comfortable, supernatural un-truth.

 

I don't write these things to be elitist, but to show you how far you come -  and so quickly. 

For myself, I'm just thankful to have been born in a time where the true answers to many of life's big questions are now within our reach.  You and I have the chance to discover and comprehend things that our forebears could only have dreamed of.  We stand at a pivotal moment in human history.  A moment that we can choose to selflessly honor and rejoice in or to selfishly ignore and deny. 

 

How do I choose to use my brief life, BC?

Certainly not absorbed in a reluctant fascination with my death!  Being an atheist doesn't automatically turn me into a despair-filled nihilist.  That idea is nothing more than a clumsy, underhanded and inaccurate piece of Christian propaganda. They would have the general populace believe that without their God, there is no meaning, no purpose and nothing worth living for.  Not true!  We are the proof of that and the good that this forum does is also proof.

 

Rather than trying to live in a way that pleases a non-existent deity, shouldn't simply we live for each other?  After all, what can be more inspiring than to lift each other up, out of suffering and ignorance and fear?  Shouldn't we comfort, help and uplift each other, mutually rejoicing in each other's healing, growth and future potential?  If your answers are yes, yes and yes, then please take note of the warmth and empathy of recent messages in this thread.  These posts are proof that goodness and happiness aren't the exclusive property of Christianity.

 

Now BC, here's how I deal with the knowledge that I'm a brief, transitory spark of light and life in a vast universe.  I try to honor the time I live in by living for others.  I try to add to the value and meaning to my life by adding to the value and meaning of other people's lives.  Being human, I don't always succeeed.  But if I succeed enough and do so where it counts most, then I deem that to be a good use of my time. That's how I choose to use my all-too-brief life.

 

I describe this, not to serve you with a lesson, but to share with you what works for me and to offer you this small portion of my life-experience - to do with as you will.  If you agree with some of it, I'm glad.

 

Thanks.

As for the ID/IC issue, I think it's interesting but maybe jumping the gun to claim that evolution can't account for complex molecular systems.  If we take the example of the 'co-option theory' that Scott Minnich mentioned back in the link on page 5, and which I kept referring back to, as I thought it was a strong argument for ID/IC, it turns out that his claim that only 10 of the 40 proteins could be found in other systems, and the other 30 were unique, may not be true now.  I found an artilce that mentions that they've found some of these other proteins, so it seems Minnich et al, were being too hasty.  I've got to dash in a mintue, but I'll find that article and put a link in later.     It's probably best to wait and see what science discovers about these molecular systems. 

 

Please outline your position if I've misunderstood you, or if you need to clarify anything.

 

Bye for now

 

BlackCat.

 

BC, I will be outlining my position re: ID/IC, but not today.  V.soon, I hope.

 

As you already know, I have grave misgivings about it.  However, the main source of my skepticism towards it is derived from that which I know and understand best - cosmology, astronomy and geology.  Therefore, I'll need to carefully explain certain things about time, space and the universe, for you to see how and why I can't give ID/IC much credence. 

 

For now, while I collect my thoughts, please take a look a the dialog between Ficino and myself.  It is relevant.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55254-what-is-the-best-way-to-deal-with-christianity/page-4  (from post #77 onwards.)

 

This link... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument ...will explain the context of our discussion.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[BlackCat]

BC, I can appreciate that life now looks bleaker and less comforting to you than it used to.

 

Yes, it can't help but be bleaker. The truth comes with a 'price'.  My mum believes she's going to go and be with my dad when she dies, (she's got dementia and is in a nursing home).  I nod and agree with her, knowing it's giving her comfort but knowing it's most likely not going to happen (see, I'm still hoping.....)  It's exceedingly bleak to know I won't see my dad and family again.  This is reality though. 

 

The flip side of this, however is that rather than being led astray by a noble-sounding lie, your eyes are being opened to the clear light of reality and truth.  This in of itself is well worth rejoicing over and taking comfort in.  To see things clearly and to understand the world properly is a fine and wonderful thing.  Most of the humans who've ever lived and most living now are still enthralled to one kind of illusion or another.and will never reach where you now are.  Most people don't even suspect that it's possible to know certain things and many have turned away from the truth, content with a comfortable, supernatural un-truth.

 

I don't write these things to be elitist, but to show you how far you come -  and so quickly. 

I still can't believe I've finally broke free from the illusion.  I think about my many friends who are still trapped in this illusion but I don't think it's for me to get them to take the 'red pill' before they're ready.  If they ask me why I no longer believe, I will tell them, but I won't refer them to those atheist vids etc unless they were voicing similar doubts and conerns that I had, as I would be scared I'd cause them pain.  This is very tricky.  What do you think? 

For myself, I'm just thankful to have been born in a time where the true answers to many of life's big questions are now within our reach.  You and I have the chance to discover and comprehend things that our forebears could only have dreamed of.  We stand at a pivotal moment in human history.  A moment that we can choose to selflessly honor and rejoice in or to selfishly ignore and deny. Yes.

 

How do I choose to use my brief life, BC?

Certainly not absorbed in a reluctant fascination with my death!  Being an atheist doesn't automatically turn me into a despair-filled nihilist.  That idea is nothing more than a clumsy, underhanded and inaccurate piece of Christian propaganda. They would have the general populace believe that without their God, there is no meaning, no purpose and nothing worth living for.  Not true!  We are the proof of that and the good that this forum does is also proof.

 

Rather than trying to live in a way that pleases a non-existent deity, shouldn't simply we live for each other?  After all, what can be more inspiring than to lift each other up, out of suffering and ignorance and fear?  Shouldn't we comfort, help and uplift each other, mutually rejoicing in each other's healing, growth and future potential?  If your answers are yes, yes and yes, then please take note of the warmth and empathy of recent messages in this thread.  These posts are proof that goodness and happiness aren't the exclusive property of Christianity.

 

Now BC, here's how I deal with the knowledge that I'm a brief, transitory spark of light and life in a vast universe.  I try to honor the time I live in by living for others.  I try to add to the value and meaning to my life by adding to the value and meaning of other people's lives.  Being human, I don't always succeeed.  But if I succeed enough and do so where it counts most, then I deem that to be a good use of my time. That's how I choose to use my all-too-brief life.

 

I describe this, not to serve you with a lesson, but to share with you what works for me and to offer you this small portion of my life-experience - to do with as you will.  If you agree with some of it, I'm glad. Yes, I agree with you.  This is what I try to do too. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

BC, I will be outlining my position re: ID/IC, but not today.  V.soon, I hope.

 

As you already know, I have grave misgivings about it.  However, the main source of my skepticism towards it is derived from that which I know and understand best - cosmology, astronomy and geology.  Therefore, I'll need to carefully explain certain things about time, space and the universe, for you to see how and why I can't give ID/IC much credence. 

 

For now, while I collect my thoughts, please take a look a the dialog between Ficino and myself.  It is relevant.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55254-what-is-the-best-way-to-deal-with-christianity/page-4  (from post #77 onwards.)

 

This link... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument ...will explain the context of our discussion.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I look forward to your thoughts on ID/IC.  I've checked out the two links.  Thank you.  

[bornagainathiest]

 

BC, I can appreciate that life now looks bleaker and less comforting to you than it used to.

 

Yes, it can't help but be bleaker. The truth comes with a 'price'.  My mum believes she's going to go and be with my dad when she dies, (she's got dementia and is in a nursing home).  I nod and agree with her, knowing it's giving her comfort but knowing it's most likely not going to happen (see, I'm still hoping.....)  It's exceedingly bleak to know I won't see my dad and family again.  This is reality though. 

I miss my folks too, BC.

My mom had severe dementia, so I can empathize with with you there.  She hoped to see my dad and my elder brother, Paul.    For what it's worth, I take comfort in my memories of them and try to keep them 'alive' by recounting my thoughts of them to my partner, Maureen.  She only knew my mom (for twelve years), so it's up to me describe my dad and brother to her in as vivid terms as I can.  That way, she can get to 'know' them, by proxy, so to speak.  I can show her where they were born and grew up, where they went to school and stuff like that.  Talking with my relations and old family friends, watching videos of them and perusing (boxfulls of!) photos are another means of doing this.   The reality is that only their shadows and echoes remain.  For that however, I'm grateful.

 

 

 

 

I don't write these things to be elitist, but to show you how far you come -  and so quickly. 

I still can't believe I've finally broke free from the illusion.  I think about my many friends who are still trapped in this illusion but I don't think it's for me to get them to take the 'red pill' before they're ready.  If they ask me why I no longer believe, I will tell them, but I won't refer them to those atheist vids etc unless they were voicing similar doubts and conerns that I had, as I would be scared I'd cause them pain.  This is very tricky.  What do you think? 

I think you are a sensitive, kind and honest person, BC.

You show genuine concern for the feelings of your friends and you want to spare them any undue emotional injury.  This is thoughtful and compassionate behavior, in my book.  Would that more people were as considerate as you!

But, that wasn't really what you asking about, was it?

What do I think about your position, re: your believing friends... that was the tricky question, right?

 

Hmmm.... I reckon our dialog in this thread offers a hint.

As ExCBooster, Ficino and Akheia have recently intimated... there's a whole lot of warmth, maturity and mutual respect running thru this thread.  (Ooops! Josh, T2M and Ravenstar, you guys are there - in the mix, too!)

 

So, I'd say 'No' BC.  It's not for you to force anything upon them.  We didn't force anything upon you - only giving you the answers to the questions you raised or expressing our positions on certain issues, without upbraiding you for not seeing the truth.  You always were (and still are) the one setting the pace here.  Perhaps that'd be the best way to relate to your friends over matters of faith and belief? 

 

If they ask, tell.  If they don't ask, you've no need to subject them to undue anxiety.  If you do tell, bear with them as we've borne with you - sensitively and gently.  You're clearly concerned for them, so I doubt you'll just go in there and ride roughshod all over their feelings!  That'd be out of character, if I'm any judge of these things.

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

I describe this, not to serve you with a lesson, but to share with you what works for me and to offer you this small portion of my life-experience - to do with as you will.  If you agree with some of it, I'm glad. Yes, I agree with you.  This is what I try to do too. 

 

BAA.

I look forward to your thoughts on ID/IC.  I've checked out the two links.  Thank you.  

Ummm... seeing as the weekend is closing in on us, I reckon that I'll be putting fingers to keyboard, sometime early next week. Ok?

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[BlackCat]

BAA- I appreciate your last post.  Thank you (and all you other guys and gals) for being patient and helping me.  My daughter popped over earlier (I'm in bed not well today- got the flu brewing I think) and as we were chatting, she asked me where I was with God.  She's been on a similar journey to me, these last few years (she's 26) and so I've been able to share with her the things I've leaned here, knowing that she can 'handle the truth'.  We both concluded we were atheists in the sense we don't believe in theistic type gods, but agnostic in that we don't know everything and so maybe there is some force or intellignece of the universe??  (never saying never lol).  

 

Have a good weekend, and I'll look forward to your next post, when time allows for you.  That's to all of you guys.  Have a good weekend.   

[Joshpantera]

Hey BC, good to see how well you've been coming along with all of this.

 

Here's an article going around on another thread that's relevant to what we've been discussing here:

 

http://blogs.agu.org/mountainbeltway/2013/02/14/the-discovery-institute-feels-sorry-for-my-students/

 

You may want to take a look at the peer review link just to see how that's actually been going for the ID lobby despite their claims of being peer reviewed as if it were a positive thing on their behalf...

[BlackCat]

Hey BC, good to see how well you've coming along with all of this.

 

Here's an article going around on another thread that's relevant to what we've been discussing here:

 

http://blogs.agu.org/mountainbeltway/2013/02/14/the-discovery-institute-feels-sorry-for-my-students/

 

You may want to take a look at the peer review link just to see how that's actually been going for the ID lobby despite their claims of being peer reviewed as if it were a positive thing on their behalf...

 

Hey Josh. Thanks for the link.  I've checked out the article and it is very interesting and makes some good points. 

[bornagainathiest]

Hi BC! 

 

You feeling any better?  I hope so.

 

This is just a quickie... I'll engage with you more fully tomorrow or the next day.  Two things, if I may.

 

First, have you seen this? 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55499-geology-professor-pwns-crypto-creationists-at-discovery-institute/

Professor Callan Bentley provides links about the motor mechanism of the bacterial flagellum.  I hope they are of interest!

Also, Ravenstar gives a link to the infamous Wedge document.  For some background on this, please go here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_document So, were the Pajaro dunes scientists motivated purely by scientific curiosity or were they working to an agenda, when they decided to go public about ID?

 

Secondly, did the BBC ever get back to you re: their use of machinist metaphors in that Secret Universe documentary?

Just curious.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

[BlackCat]

Hi BC! 

 

You feeling any better?  I hope so.

 

This is just a quickie... I'll engage with you more fully tomorrow or the next day.  Two things, if I may.

 

First, have you seen this? 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55499-geology-professor-pwns-crypto-creationists-at-discovery-institute/

Professor Callan Bentley provides links about the motor mechanism of the bacterial flagellum.  I hope they are of interest!

Also, Ravenstar gives a link to the infamous Wedge document.  For some background on this, please go here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_document So, were the Pajaro dunes scientists motivated purely by scientific curiosity or were they working to an agenda, when they decided to go public about ID?

 

Secondly, did the BBC ever get back to you re: their use of machinist metaphors in that Secret Universe documentary?

Just curious.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Hi BAA- yes, I'm feeling much better thank you. 

 

I did see the article regarding the professor's emails to the creationist.  Josh linked to it.  It put into perspective some of the main issues we've been discussing.

 

I'd heard of the Wedge document but for some reason had thought it was about something else, so I was pretty shocked to read Ravenstar's link.  When I first watched  their video 'unlocking the mystery of life' which shows them meeting at Pajaro dunes, I had the impression, they were a bunch of scientists whose work had flagged up some concerns , but I see how it's really a case of a bunch of Christians (mainly) meeting to form their own 'ministry' of intelligent design.   I knew the theists of the Discovery Institute would have a religious agenda, but I thought the institute was trying to remain neutral to any religious agendas, and stick to just the science, but I was very wrong.  Thank you for linking to that thread.  I hadn't seen it.

 

The BBC haven't got back to me.  The page where I posted my message, did say that they don't answer all enquiries.    It's been a few weeks now, so I don't think they're going to reply.  I must say though, that I still perceive a machine, when I look and study the flagellum.  It's obviously different to man made machines, but its parts, assembly and function surely all jointly give you a 'machine'. 

[bornagainathiest]

Hi BAA- yes, I'm feeling much better thank you. 

 

That's good. Flu is no fun - even if it gets you time off work.

I did see the article regarding the professor's emails to the creationist.  Josh linked to it.  It put into perspective some of the main issues we've been discussing.

 

I'd heard of the Wedge document but for some reason had thought it was about something else, so I was pretty shocked to read Ravenstar's link.  When I first watched  their video 'unlocking the mystery of life' which shows them meeting at Pajaro dunes, I had the impression, they were a bunch of scientists whose work had flagged up some concerns , but I see how it's really a case of a bunch of Christians (mainly) meeting to form their own 'ministry' of intelligent design.  

 

Yes, BC.

That's exactly what they wanted you to think.

That they were motivated entirely by scientific curiosity and an unbiased pursuit of the truth. 

 

Whereas, they were following a carefully scripted and stagemanaged plan to undermine science itself.  A plan orchestrated by the Discovery Institute, which it tried (and failed) to keep secret.  A plan deviously designed to appeal to genuinely seeking people like yourself.  A plan to 'hook' the unwary with the highly-attractive and scientific-looking ID and IC pseudo-science and then to groom them, by slow degrees, into becoming fully-fledged Biblical Creationists.

You'd expect Christians to love and honor the truth, wouldn't you?  Catch is, their 'truth' is the Bible and only the Bible.  Presciently enough, I wrote this, a couple of weeks ago.  "If you truly believe, you can justify any evil."  It looks like they can't see the evil of their lies, because they are true believers.

I knew the theists of the Discovery Institute would have a religious agenda, but I thought the institute was trying to remain neutral to any religious agendas, and stick to just the science, but I was very wrong.  Thank you for linking to that thread.  I hadn't seen it.

Well, I'm sorry to be the one to break this news to you BC, but now you see their true colors. 

We Ex-Christians are quite familiar with the deceits and disinformation perpetrated by these 'liars-for-Jesus'. 

Knowing what you now know, if you go back thru this thread, you'll see why we just don't trust them an inch.

The BBC haven't got back to me.  The page where I posted my message, did say that they don't answer all enquiries.    It's been a few weeks now, so I don't think they're going to reply.  I must say though, that I still perceive a machine, when I look and study the flagellum.  It's obviously different to man made machines, but its parts, assembly and function surely all jointly give you a 'machine'. 

 

Ummm... would you mind if I had a go contacting them?   For that I'd need a link, if that's ok by you.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[BlackCat]

 

Hi BAA- yes, I'm feeling much better thank you. 

 

That's good. Flu is no fun - even if it gets you time off work.

>>I did see the article regarding the professor's emails to the creationist.  Josh linked to it.  It put into perspective some of the main issues we've been discussing.

 

I'd heard of the Wedge document but for some reason had thought it was about something else, so I was pretty shocked to read Ravenstar's link.  When I first watched  their video 'unlocking the mystery of life' which shows them meeting at Pajaro dunes, I had the impression, they were a bunch of scientists whose work had flagged up some concerns , but I see how it's really a case of a bunch of Christians (mainly) meeting to form their own 'ministry' of intelligent design.  

 

Yes, BC.

That's exactly what they wanted you to think.

That they were motivated entirely by scientific curiosity and an unbiased pursuit of the truth. 

 

Whereas, they were following a carefully scripted and stagemanaged plan to undermine science itself.  A plan orchestrated by the Discovery Institute, which it tried (and failed) to keep secret.  A plan deviously designed to appeal to genuinely seeking people like yourself.  A plan to 'hook' the unwary with the highly-attractive and scientific-looking ID and IC pseudo-science and then to groom them, by slow degrees, into becoming fully-fledged Biblical Creationists.

You'd expect Christians to love and honor the truth, wouldn't you?  Catch is, their 'truth' is the Bible and only the Bible.  Presciently enough, I wrote this, a couple of weeks ago.  "If you truly believe, you can justify any evil."  It looks like they can't see the evil of their lies, because they are true believers.

I knew the theists of the Discovery Institute would have a religious agenda, but I thought the institute was trying to remain neutral to any religious agendas, and stick to just the science, but I was very wrong.  Thank you for linking to that thread.  I hadn't seen it.

Well, I'm sorry to be the one to break this news to you BC, but now you see their true colors. 

We Ex-Christians are quite familiar with the deceits and disinformation perpetrated by these 'liars-for-Jesus'. 

Knowing what you now know, if you go back thru this thread, you'll see why we just don't trust them an inch.

The BBC haven't got back to me.  The page where I posted my message, did say that they don't answer all enquiries.    It's been a few weeks now, so I don't think they're going to reply.  I must say though, that I still perceive a machine, when I look and study the flagellum.  It's obviously different to man made machines, but its parts, assembly and function surely all jointly give you a 'machine'. 

 

Ummm... would you mind if I had a go contacting them?   For that I'd need a link, if that's ok by you.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Deceit indeed.

 

I messaged them via this link:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/  and then click on 'contact us'.

 

The 'contact button' at the bottom of the main page takes you to various options that don't seem to take you to an email address. 

 

Here's the website by the makers of the film: http://secret-universe.co.uk/#/   It doesn't seem to have a contact link, as I would have messaged them too.

[kolaida]

I don't really have anything to contribute to this thread but just wanted to thank everyone for being so thorough in their responses.  I've just spent like 2-3 hours going through it and it has helped me a TON.  I've always had that niggling doubt in the back of my mind about the "mad man" Jesus theory so thanks BAA for addressing that earlier (as well as a way to live life without a higher authority) and I've also been wondering a lot about the possibility of ID not relating directly to religion.  Thanks BC for starting this thread.  

[BlackCat]

Hi Kolaida, thanks for your encouragement. This thread has sure covered some varied and interesting things.  I've certainly been helped by the guys on here.  They're a great bunch, ever willing to help.