Theistic Satanism (Age Of Aquarius) Discussion (Continued)

[OrdinaryClay]

How do you know what Satan cares about? Did he tell you?

Inference.

[OrdinaryClay]

Once you agree to believe in an unseen realm of magical beings, any scenario can be imagined as it serves your agenda.

 

Be gone, demon of stoopid!!!!!!!!

Hmmm ... actually, any scenario can be imagined as it serves your agenda.

[Ravenstar]

I've never come across a theistic satanist... I've talked to a few Church of Satan people (laVeyan?) I've perused the Temple of Set site... witchcraft/neo-paganism has nothing like a 'satan' in it. Pan is about as close as you can get, and he is a nature god. Loki may have some attributes but he isn't 'evil personified'. (I see him as more like Coyote)

 

my understanding was that it was more based on hedonism. Or... kids trying something out to piss of their parents and shock society.

 

But if it exists...(then I am ignorant of it) Then it does. Still, it seems kind of silly to me. An inverse christianity, yes?

 

Satan has nothing to do with the Sumerian En.ki though - that's just a bad mash-up of very diverse systems.. and in Sumerian mythology his brother En.Lil would be more the 'satan' than Enki (as he wanted to destroy man) And it was Enki's consort (Nin.Hur.Sag?) that actually created Adapu.(man) Not Anu (Enki's dad - the big wig of the pantheon)  Lord Enki just educated them. Tiamat is more like the 'dragon' or serpent of the bible than any of the other ones.... Maybe he really means Kingu? Of course if you want to extrapolate and mess up the story you only have to read Sitchin, where this guy obviously got his interpretation of Sumerian mythology from.

 

Unless you also see Prometheus as a satan.

 

just sayin'

[OrdinaryClay]

I've never come across a theistic satanist... I've talked to a few Church of Satan people (laVeyan?) I've perused the Temple of Set site... witchcraft/neo-paganism has nothing like a 'satan' in it. Pan is about as close as you can get, and he is a nature god. Loki may have some attributes but he isn't 'evil personified'. (I see him as more like Coyote)

 

my understanding was that it was more based on hedonism. Or... kids trying something out to piss of their parents and shock society.

 

But if it exists...(then I am ignorant of it) Then it does. Still, it seems kind of silly to me. An inverse christianity, yes?

 

Satan has nothing to do with the Sumerian En.ki though - that's just a bad mash-up of very diverse systems.. and in Sumerian mythology his brother En.Lil would be more the 'satan' than Enki (as he wanted to destroy man) And it was Enki's consort (Nin.Hur.Sag?) that actually created Adapu.(man) Not Anu (Enki's dad - the big wig of the pantheon)  Lord Enki just educated them. Tiamat is more like the 'dragon' or serpent of the bible than any of the other ones.... Maybe he really means Kingu? Of course if you want to extrapolate and mess up the story you only have to read Sitchin, where this guy obviously got his interpretation of Sumerian mythology from.

 

Unless you also see Prometheus as a satan.

 

just sayin'

How people see him is not what counts. What counts is what he does.

 

I understand and have heard the party line many times. Clearly the OP of the originating thread disagrees. It is not hard to find many other satanists who agree with him. He's very young. He picked up his beliefs from others.

 

Regarding the proponents of lavey style satanism ... again I have heard the usual lip service about them not believing satan is an entity. Their actions and rituals speak otherwise.

 

[Astreja]

You do know, Ordinary Clay, that Laveyan Satanism and theistic Satanism are two completely different types of Satanism?

 

And although theistic Satanists believe that Satan is real, that does not make their Satan real.

 

By the way, how many Laveyan Satanists do you know in RL and how many of their rituals have you attended?

[OrdinaryClay]

You do know, Ordinary Clay, that Laveyan Satanism and theistic Satanism are two completely different types of Satanism?

 

And although theistic Satanists believe that Satan is real, that does not make their Satan real.

 

By the way, how many Laveyan Satanists do you know in RL and how many of their rituals have you attended?

Completely different? How different is that?

 

Saying he is not real does not make him imaginary.

 

Based on your question I assume you have attended their rituals, else your attempt to discredit me would be meaningless. True?

[Astreja]

 

You do know, Ordinary Clay, that Laveyan Satanism and theistic Satanism are two completely different types of Satanism?

 

And although theistic Satanists believe that Satan is real, that does not make their Satan real.

 

By the way, how many Laveyan Satanists do you know in RL and how many of their rituals have you attended?

Completely different? How different is that?

 

Saying he is not real does not make him imaginary.

 

Based on your question I assume you have attended their rituals, else your attempt to discredit me would be meaningless. True?

 

OC, until you can produce physical evidence to My standards to support the assertion that "Satan" is an actual being, I'm going to continue to assume that it is imaginary.

 

I've engaged in dialogues with a theistic Satanist on an interfaith forum, and she was quite adamant that her beliefs were not related to the Laveyan variety of Satanism.  When someone tells me they believe something, I tend to accept that rather than accusing them of lying about what they believe.  Whether the beliefs themselves have any validity is a separate issue.

 

And if I were to get an invitation to a ritual for either variety of Satanism, there's a good chance that I would accept (taking reasonable safety precautions, unless the ritual is in a public place or the person inviting Me is already a good friend).

[Ravenstar]

I've attended all sorts of interesting and varied rituals of many different paths. Not Church of Satan though.. never had the pleasure.

 

But I'm sure most (xtian) folks wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one of theirs and a pagan one anyway... lol 

 

or even High Ceremonial Magick rituals...

 

except maybe, Catholics

[OrdinaryClay]

OC, until you can produce physical evidence to My standards to support the assertion that "Satan" is an actual being, I'm going to continue to assume that it is imaginary.

 

I've engaged in dialogues with a theistic Satanist on an interfaith forum, and she was quite adamant that her beliefs were not related to the Laveyan variety of Satanism.  When someone tells me they believe something, I tend to accept that rather than accusing them of lying about what they believe.  Whether the beliefs themselves have any validity is a separate issue.

 

And if I were to get an invitation to a ritual for either variety of Satanism, there's a good chance that I would accept (taking reasonable safety precautions, unless the ritual is in a public place or the person inviting Me is already a good friend).

 

Ah, I see.

 

What precautions would you take and why?

[OrdinaryClay]

I've attended all sorts of interesting and varied rituals of many different paths. Not Church of Satan though.. never had the pleasure.

 

But I'm sure most (xtian) folks wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one of theirs and a pagan one anyway... lol 

 

or even High Ceremonial Magick rituals...

 

except maybe, Catholics

 

Were these rituals directed towards something? Did they expect something to be listening?

[Astreja]

 

OC, until you can produce physical evidence to My standards to support the assertion that "Satan" is an actual being, I'm going to continue to assume that it is imaginary.

 

I've engaged in dialogues with a theistic Satanist on an interfaith forum, and she was quite adamant that her beliefs were not related to the Laveyan variety of Satanism.  When someone tells me they believe something, I tend to accept that rather than accusing them of lying about what they believe.  Whether the beliefs themselves have any validity is a separate issue.

 

And if I were to get an invitation to a ritual for either variety of Satanism, there's a good chance that I would accept (taking reasonable safety precautions, unless the ritual is in a public place or the person inviting Me is already a good friend).

 

Ah, I see.

 

What precautions would you take and why?

Letting someone know where I was going, and borrowing My friend's cell phone, and not drinking or eating anything unless I was with a buddy or the food came out of a sealed commercial package, or I could observe multiple people safely eating the food.

 

In other words, the same precautions I would take if you (or anyone else I didn't already know) invited Me to your home for a private ceremony of any sort.

[mymistake]

Saying he is not real does not make him imaginary.

 

Correct!  The fact that Satan is not real is what makes him imaginary.  Words don't do it.  They are not magic.

 

Based on your question I assume you have attended their rituals, else your attempt to discredit me would be meaningless. True?

 

Nobody needs to attempt to discredit you.   Silly Christian, look in the mirror.  Blame that guy.  He is the one who discredits you.

[Fernweh]

 

How do you know what Satan cares about? Did he tell you?

Inference.

To make an inference one must first have some known fact to infer from. Otherwise you are just piling on one inferred statement on top of another. You know for a fact that Satan exist?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

How do you know what Satan cares about? Did he tell you?

Inference.

To make an inference one must first have some known fact to infer from. Otherwise you are just piling on one inferred statement on top of another. You know for a fact that Satan exist?

 

Okay, we are playing the internet skeptics evidence game. I'll play.

 

First we must define evidence.

 

 

Now, I know there is strong evidence for his exstence.

[OrdinaryClay]

Letting someone know where I was going, and borrowing My friend's cell phone, and not drinking or eating anything unless I was with a buddy or the food came out of a sealed commercial package, or I could observe multiple people safely eating the food.

The precautions make sense. Particpating knowing you need to take such precautions does not.

 

In other words, the same precautions I would take if you (or anyone else I didn't already know) invited Me to your home for a private ceremony of any sort.

You must attend some pretty strange ceremonies.

[florduh]

Now, I know there is strong evidence for his exstence.

No. What you know is that people can do bad things. Most label this as evil.

 

What you believe is that evil is personified in the being that your mythology calls Satan.

 

Huge difference.

[Ravenstar]

 

I've attended all sorts of interesting and varied rituals of many different paths. Not Church of Satan though.. never had the pleasure.

 

But I'm sure most (xtian) folks wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one of theirs and a pagan one anyway... lol 

 

or even High Ceremonial Magick rituals...

 

except maybe, Catholics

 

Were these rituals directed towards something? Did they expect something to be listening?

All ritual is intentional.. that's the point of ritual. A Japanese tea ceremony has a purpose.. and the tea itself is not the purpose, it's the means to the purpose - a focus, a tool.

 

No..nothing is listening - unless you consider that most spiritually minded people think that all nature is interconnected. Most ritual I have attended have no 'deity' other than archetypes used to focus intention. In most cases the ritual's purpose is either to celebrate the cycles of nature or to focus the participants intention to accomplish something. My experience this that this is usually some personal goal of the participants or maybe in support of one participant. It's a psychological alignment with goals, and in the case of earth religions that is accomplished by 'tuning' into to natural laws, and honoring them. An example of an archetype would be the great mother goddess - who personifies nature and the feminine, nurturing, creative, receptive quality.. paganism mostly holds that the divine is immanent, within each of us as well as throughout nature.

 

Ritual is a tool.. it's also a way to forge bonds between people... and mead is good. 

[Fernweh]

 

 

 

How do you know what Satan cares about? Did he tell you?

Inference.

To make an inference one must first have some known fact to infer from. Otherwise you are just piling on one inferred statement on top of another. You know for a fact that Satan exist?

 

Okay, we are playing the internet skeptics evidence game. I'll play.

 

First we must define evidence.

 

 

Now, I know there is strong evidence for his exstence.

 

What is this evidence you speak of?  Even when I was a believer I found the entire concept of Satan to be utterly preposterous. The idea that god's favorite angel rebelled and fancied himself greater than his creator is ridiculous. So satan "fell" and was kicked out of heaven. Where did he go? Where is he now? Is he omniscient? Can he be at more than one place at a time? There's no need for skepticism here. No, I reject the entire concept of satan as totally absurd.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

How do you know what Satan cares about? Did he tell you?

Inference.

To make an inference one must first have some known fact to infer from. Otherwise you are just piling on one inferred statement on top of another. You know for a fact that Satan exist?

 

Okay, we are playing the internet skeptics evidence game. I'll play.

 

First we must define evidence.

 

 

Now, I know there is strong evidence for his exstence.

 

Right, you just left the evidence in your other coat.  That is why you can't share it.  Or maybe it's the kind of evidence you have to believe before you can see . . . like the Emperor's New Clothes.

[Margee]

Ordinary Clay, do you even know how the universe came into existence? Do you still believe that the christian god formed the earth into a nice little ball (along with a million other useless planets out there) and then went about with his useless plan to make man?

 

If you do, my heart really does feel for you. You have been lied to my friend...... and not from satan........

 

Go, study the universe.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Now, I know there is strong evidence for his exstence.

No. What you know is that people can do bad things. Most label this as evil.

 

What you believe is that evil is personified in the being that your mythology calls Satan.

 

Huge difference.

No, In fact, I know there is strong evidence for satans existence. I know this the same way a prosecutor knows there is evidence in a case they may be trying.

 

People doing bad things is orthogonal to the point.

 

 

 

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

I've attended all sorts of interesting and varied rituals of many different paths. Not Church of Satan though.. never had the pleasure.

 

But I'm sure most (xtian) folks wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one of theirs and a pagan one anyway... lol 

 

or even High Ceremonial Magick rituals...

 

except maybe, Catholics

 

Were these rituals directed towards something? Did they expect something to be listening?

All ritual is intentional.. that's the point of ritual. A Japanese tea ceremony has a purpose.. and the tea itself is not the purpose, it's the means to the purpose - a focus, a tool.

Very well said. Thank you.

 

No..nothing is listening - unless you consider that most spiritually minded people think that all nature is interconnected. Most ritual I have attended have no 'deity' other than archetypes used to focus intention. In most cases the ritual's purpose is either to celebrate the cycles of nature or to focus the participants intention to accomplish something. My experience this that this is usually some personal goal of the participants or maybe in support of one participant. It's a psychological alignment with goals, and in the case of earth religions that is accomplished by 'tuning' into to natural laws, and honoring them. An example of an archetype would be the great mother goddess - who personifies nature and the feminine, nurturing, creative, receptive quality.. paganism mostly holds that the divine is immanent, within each of us as well as throughout nature.

Why treat these "archetypes" as if they have sentient characteristics if they don't exist. The tea in japan is not given such characteristics .

 

Ritual is a tool.. it's also a way to forge bonds between people... and mead is good. 

Agreed, though I have never had mead.

[OrdinaryClay]

What is this evidence you speak of? 

 

Multiple vetted eyewitness accounts from credible witnesses among others.

[OrdinaryClay]

Ordinary Clay, do you even know how the universe came into existence? Do you still believe that the christian god formed the earth into a nice little ball (along with a million other useless planets out there) and then went about with his useless plan to make man?

 

If you do, my heart really does feel for you. You have been lied to my friend...... and not from satan........

 

Go, study the universe.

I have studied cosmology and am aware of the current set of theories describing the origin and evolution of the universe. I know for a fact that science does not answer the question of how the universe began.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

What is this evidence you speak of? 

 

Multiple vetted eyewitness accounts from credible witnesses among others.

 

I don't know if you could consider that as evidence. What this really is, is people having an experience that can not be explained, but the people who have these experiences label the cause as something they already believe in, without knowing what the real cause of the unexplained experience may be.