Should An Atheist Be Pro Life?

[SilentLoner]

Looks like I'm way late to this party. Oh well, I'm 100% for abortion rights.

[SquareOne]

Thanks for joining the party Silent, your tardiness is forgiven.

 

I have spent a lot of time in this thread trying to pin down exactly what people support and do not support, and the reasons for it.  My particular area of focus is on the 24-week rule in British law, whereby an abortion cannot be carried out legally after 24 weeks pregnancy (with a few exceptions).

 

 

In particular, I have sought to extract arguments from people that are based on physiology, biology, law and ethics, rather than purely based on emotional response, or recourse to "rights" unless they can accompany the rights argument with an explanation for the source of the right.

 

Are you able to expand on your thoughts?

 

 

 

Myself, I am deeply conflicted about the issue.  I have deep sympathy for anyone who is pregnant and does not wish to be; and also for those who have been through the abortion process.  I am also non-judgmental towards anyone who seeks to have, or has had, an abortion.

[Kurari]

Oh please Kurari don't confuse with facts!!

 

This ain't 'pro-life' at all. I don't hear endless diatribes on Family Radio and Christian Network on how many elderly people have been killed by refusal to employ every life prolonging measure possible. Where are the anti-war protests, that one really puzzles me. How about the mundane, like diarrhea that kills millions of *born* children every year. This ain't 'pro-life' at all, this is anti-abortion.

 

Maybe it's because I just read a couple great anthropology books that are heavily influenced by evolutionary psychology, but I cannot help but see this issue as one of males absolutely enraged by females in control of their sexuality. It's the fertile females that are fought over, like our nasty cousins the chimpanzees.

 

It's easier, apparently, to punish women basically for being women, than it is to sincerely address the many complex circumstances that force them to resort to abortion.

 

ETA

You anti-abortion people may want to consider the questions posed here:

 

http://bigthink.com/daylight-atheism/questions-for-pro-lifers

 

 

*L* You are of course, absolutely right. 

 

I prefer to call them Pro-LIARS and terrorists, but sometimes I try to tone down the venom.

[Ravenstar]

Yes, I flip...shift, to a point.

 

I'm an INTP - it is my nature to try to see all sides, and finding a hard position is almost impossible for me 

[SquareOne]

Just looked INTP up.  I tend to relate to that profile.

 

Anyway, I am no closer to feeling any sort of stable position on this whole issue, and to be honest, I am not sure I am going to.

 

My conclusion, based on everything I have seen and heard, is that there is no logical answer to the question of abortion, either pro-life or pro-choice.  Which is where I was at the start of this topic.

 

It is a horrible business, altogether.  I hope that it never becomes a directly affecting issue for my family.  Ravenstar your own experiences as shared with us here really confirm that it's not a choice anyone ever wants to have to make, and I am sorry that you have had the painful experiences that you have had.

 

I think I'm going to wrap up on this now.  Though, I'll probably have a few more posts in the thread, in all likelihood.

 

Thank you to everyone for sharing.

[dB-Paradox]

 

I think there are some adults who need to be aborted.

 

 

Thought you were 'pro-life.' Maybe not so much, then.

 

 

'Twas a joke, My damn X.  (<---that was a joke, too, so don't take any offense...after all, I'm just a pair of ducks!)  But Jaded said it best.  I'd also like to add that while I don't believe in the death penalty per se, there ARE people who should get it.  "But I thought I was pro-life???  If I believe the fetus should be given the chance to live and become human, then why do I think some serial killers need to be put to death?"  So, you can easily see how one can be pro-life, and pro-death sentence at the same time.  It's absurd to make a comparison between a fetus and a serial killer!  Besides, putting a murderer to death might actually save more lives.  Thus the death penalty is STILL pro-life in that sense.  Lose one life, save a few more.

[Kurari]

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. If it's any consolation to you, I like to give "Bible Lessons" whenever I see protestors in front of planned parenthood. They're always there, and they irk the crap out of me. The people who do this lack reason and what they are doing is abusive and they should be sued. It is harassment. It's not an easy decision for most people who get abortions I'm sure, so they go and make the decision even harder just to try to get their own way. It's disgusting.

 

Thank you very much! It wasn't pleasant, even though it wasn't horrific. 

 

The life lesson I took away from it was that sometimes life doesn't give you any good choices. It just gives you choices. 

 

 

 

 

.... Actually, instead of regretting it, I'm glad you're proud of it. You didn't put another child and yourself through poverty by going through with it, and you are better off for it. It's frustrating that people can't see how wrong it is, from a human rights perspective, to put a mother and child through that. Say the child was born, earning minimum wage you can forget your future. As for taking care of the child, good luck. Foster care and adoption? There are alot of kids in the system, and the picture is far from "okay", much less pretty. You did the right thing. 

 

Thank you for your story, it adds perspective that is often lacking in this discussion.

 

I wouldn't say I'm proud of it, but I am not in the slightest bit ashamed. I personally think suffering is MUCH worse than death. There would have only been suffering ahead for my embryo because I would honestly be a shit mother (I'm childfree). It didn't deserve that. Also having dealt with the foster care and adoption system in this country, I just could NOT go that route and do that to my kid. 

 

Abortion is pretty much a euthanasia. 

 

I am not affected by the terms "unborn," "baby," "child" or other emotional blackmail language the pro-liars use. They want to call it an unborn baby to try to shame me. That's really disgusting. Fuck them. 

 

Nobody gets to fuck with my children. 

[Vigile]

there is no logical answer to the question of abortion,.

 

How can there be a logical answer on something as subjective as the value of human life and all of its variables?

 

It comes down to a matter of values, including values assigned to factors such as quality of life, personal autonomy, etc...

[dB-Paradox]

It comes down to a matter of values, including values assigned to factors such as quality of life, personal autonomy, etc...

 

I agree.  Personal (subjective) morals and values.  In fact, this thread is living proof that WLC is wrong when he talks about objective morality.  It may exist on *some* levels, but clearly, morality is a subjective thing.

[SquareOne]

How can there be a logical answer on something as subjective as the value of human life and all of its variables?

 

Glad you agree with me on something!

[SilentLoner]

I have spent a lot of time in this thread trying to pin down exactly what people support and do not support, and the reasons for it.  My particular area of focus is on the 24-week rule in British law, whereby an abortion cannot be carried out legally after 24 weeks pregnancy (with a few exceptions).

 

Late term abortions are very restricted in later months in the US too. But in Canada, there is no such restriction - yet their late term rates are similar to the low US one. That tells us that women don't get late term abortions on a whim.

 

If a late term abortion happens, there is a good reason for it.

[Kurari]

Just looked INTP up.  I tend to relate to that profile.

 

Anyway, I am no closer to feeling any sort of stable position on this whole issue, and to be honest, I am not sure I am going to.

 

My conclusion, based on everything I have seen and heard, is that there is no logical answer to the question of abortion, either pro-life or pro-choice.  Which is where I was at the start of this topic.

 

It is a horrible business, altogether.  I hope that it never becomes a directly affecting issue for my family.  Ravenstar your own experiences as shared with us here really confirm that it's not a choice anyone ever wants to have to make, and I am sorry that you have had the painful experiences that you have had.

 

I think I'm going to wrap up on this now.  Though, I'll probably have a few more posts in the thread, in all likelihood.

 

Thank you to everyone for sharing.

 

Most people do feel conflicted about this no matter what side they are on. It's not a pleasant subject. It IS jarring, it is nauseating, and it does hit you in the gut because it's personal. This is how we ALL started out. Late-term abortions are the stuff of nightmares. I'm never going to settle my own inner conflict on that one either. 

 

Just remember that freedom is easier to find solutions in. Someday, I hope, hope, HOPE that abortions become a rare procedure. 

[Ramen666]

 

there is no logical answer to the question of abortion,.

 

How can there be a logical answer on something as subjective as the value of human life and all of its variables?

 

It comes down to a matter of values, including values assigned to factors such as quality of life, personal autonomy, etc...

 

I don't agree with you much but this is the reality of the argument. This argument is based on opinion on personal ethics, NOT fact.

[Ramen666]

Here is the problem with the issue (regarding any kind of right or law), once something is given and ok'd. It is harder to take that away because people believe they are now entitled to that right.

[Guest MadameX]

 

 

I think there are some adults who need to be aborted.

 

 

Thought you were 'pro-life.' Maybe not so much, then.

 

 

'Twas a joke, My damn X.  (<---that was a joke, too, so don't take any offense...after all, I'm just a pair of ducks!)  But Jaded said it best.  I'd also like to add that while I don't believe in the death penalty per se, there ARE people who should get it.  "But I thought I was pro-life???  If I believe the fetus should be given the chance to live and become human, then why do I think some serial killers need to be put to death?"  So, you can easily see how one can be pro-life, and pro-death sentence at the same time.  It's absurd to make a comparison between a fetus and a serial killer!  Besides, putting a murderer to death might actually save more lives.  Thus the death penalty is STILL pro-life in that sense.  Lose one life, save a few more.

 

 

Of course, I know it was a joke. But I suspected that maybe there was more to it … and you produced nicely.

 

So, OK. 

 

1. You  don't believe in the death penalty, yet you do (see your bolded statement)

2. A fetus deserves 'life' therefore no abortion

3. However a serial killer can be killed, no prob, because killing that person is actually a 'pro-life' thing to do 

 

Do I understand you correctly?

 

I'm not going to criticize you. You don't even need to explain. These are complex issues and we are all inconsistent about them, and our opinions can change depending upon the situation. I am just pointing out the self-righteous and phony term 'pro-life.'  Huh, who would ever thought Christians would be self righteous and phony ;-)

[Guest MadameX]

 

 

I think there are some adults who need to be aborted.

 

 

Thought you were 'pro-life.' Maybe not so much, then.

 

A lot of pro-choice people employ the fallacious argument that it's hypocritical to be 'pro-life' and pro anything that ends the life of another human being. If the general pro-life belief that fetus = human then abortion = genocide. Abortions are basically a daily holocaust under their assumption. So, being against genocide doesn't mean you need to be against the death penalty, or against war or whatever. Likewise, the argument that if you don't like abortions then don't have one cannot hold if one believes the above and hence why pro-lifers seem to be so invested in the issue.

 

Now, Jaded Atheist, a genocide is a deliberate killing of a people (ex, national group) or race. It is the death penalty on a massive, often hate-fueled ethnic or nationalist scale. Gosh kinda like that Christian God of the OT commanded. Abortion is clearly not the same thing, and to use such inflammatory language is not accurate and obviously intended to exaggerate and manipulate emotions. Not like religious leaders or politicians would ever do something like that.

 

Still hypocritical to claim pro-life yet advocate death penalty.

 

I realize there are a few zealots out there that really do take a pro-life position to the extreme (Terry Schiavo case) but they are a distinct minority compared to the anti-abortion crowd. Really, as I stated earlier, controlling the fertile females is much more the issue here.

[dB-Paradox]

 

 

 

I think there are some adults who need to be aborted.

 

 

Thought you were 'pro-life.' Maybe not so much, then.

 

 

'Twas a joke, My damn X.  (<---that was a joke, too, so don't take any offense...after all, I'm just a pair of ducks!)  But Jaded said it best.  I'd also like to add that while I don't believe in the death penalty per se, there ARE people who should get it.  "But I thought I was pro-life???  If I believe the fetus should be given the chance to live and become human, then why do I think some serial killers need to be put to death?"  So, you can easily see how one can be pro-life, and pro-death sentence at the same time.  It's absurd to make a comparison between a fetus and a serial killer!  Besides, putting a murderer to death might actually save more lives.  Thus the death penalty is STILL pro-life in that sense.  Lose one life, save a few more.

 

 

Of course, I know it was a joke. But I suspected that maybe there was more to it … and you produced nicely.

 

So, OK. 

 

1. You  don't believe in the death penalty, yet you do (see your bolded statement)

2. A fetus deserves 'life' therefore no abortion

3. However a serial killer can be killed, no prob, because killing that person is actually a 'pro-life' thing to do

 

Do I understand you correctly?

 

No, you don't understand me correctly. 

[SquareOne]

Now, Jaded Atheist, a genocide is a deliberate killing of a people (ex, national group) or race. It is the death penalty on a massive, often hate-fueled ethnic or nationalist scale. Gosh kinda like that Christian God of the OT commanded. Abortion is clearly not the same thing, and to use such inflammatory language is not accurate and obviously intended to exaggerate and manipulate emotions.

 

That's exactly his point!  They are different.

 

Whilst I don't want to usurp Jaded's point, I think maybe what he means is, IF foetuses are considered human life by a person, then that person sees abortion as the taking of the life of an innocent.  The Death Penalty in their eyes is the taking the life of a guilty party who deserves death in their opinion.

 

The difference in their mind is innocence v guilt.

 

Now, you don't believe that the foetus has personhood, so you would say that the idea that the foetus is innocent is fallacious.  Fair enough.

 

But for somebody who sees a foetus has having personhood, it is not hypocritical from their point of view.

 

If you can't understand that concept, then that's your problem I suppose.  Jaded made a valid point.

 

BTW for the record, I'm personally against the death penalty.

[Vigile]

IF foetuses are considered human life by a person, then that person sees abortion as the taking of the life of an innocent.  The Death Penalty in their eyes is the taking the life of a guilty party who deserves death in their opinion..

 

Ok, food for thought.  I know you are an intelligent person, so really give this some thought.  I say this because intelligent people often end up just using their intelligence to support their presupposition as opposed to truly considering all sides of an argument.  Don't just bounce back a retort in order to win a debate.

 

A person subjected to the death penalty has friends and family, hopes and dreams and is potentially not even guilty.  Fetus doesn't care and has not had the opportunity to develop relationships.  Consider the idea that the 'magic' is in the memories of you and those who know you, not in the potential. 

 

Can you honestly argue that human beings EXPERIENCE suffering when a fetus is aborted (outside of the mother's personal struggle)? And no, yours and others personal sensibilities do not count as valid suffering.  Can you honestly argue that human beings do not experience suffering when a person is executed? 

[SquareOne]

I obviously didn't make it obvious enough the first time.

 

Let me quote myself:

 

BTW for the record, I'm personally against the death penalty.

[Vigile]

That has no bearing on my post. 

[SquareOne]

I am against the death penalty for the reasons you described and others.  I am not inclined to continue this discussion further.

[Vigile]

Damn man, are you really that married to your position that you can't even consider alternative view points?  You ought to dig deep and look into that.  At a minimum, don't start a discussion you aren't willing to give an honest go at. 

[SquareOne]

An alternative viewpoint to what?

 

Please set out the viewpoint you think that I advocate, and then the view that you would like me to consider in response.

 

I will then consider it.

[Vigile]

I've given you alternative points of view on several occasions in this thread and have done so politely, if directly, and you have shut me down twice arguing you aren't willing to discuss the issue.  Given the fact that you started the thread and given the fact that you are perfectly willing to counter the arguments of others as you see fit, I think this is pretty weak.  I personally think you feel uncomfortable having your views challenged.  That's what it looks like from where I sit.